Solidarity and Passion Intertwined in Italian Kosher Winemaking

Welcome to The Kosher Teruah.

I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. It is my pleasure to present an additional conversation with my good friend, Dr. Ralph Madeb. Dr. Ralph, as he is known by his many kosher wine followers, is owner of M&M Importers, a kosher fine wine import company representing boutique and midsize family-owned and operated wineries. M&M's focus is on quality wines of distinction, with each bottle reflecting the unique character of the world's diverse wine-growing regions. Their comprehensive portfolio includes over 75 indigenous varietals from some of the most prominent wine-growing regions throughout the world. They strive to work with wineries that maintain winemaking traditions of their region in order to produce wines of the highest quality and the best value. Dr. Ralph's partner in his Italian wine portfolio is Mr. Nunzio Castaldo. Nunzio is owner and manager of Panebianco Imports, a New York-based Italian wine importer and distributor. Nunzio A veteran of the wine industry for more than 30 years, has worked closely with Dr. Medeb to collect only the best Italian wineries into M&M's portfolio, and at the same time making sure that the kosher interpretations of these elite brands meets with their original tasting and complexity standards. If you're commuting in your car, please focus on the road and enjoy. If you're home, please choose a delicious kosher wine and sit back and listen to a truly interesting conversation with two of the world's most knowledgeable kosher Italian wine resources.

Actually, I wanted to start this off by saying welcome to the Kosher Terroir, which is the podcast, and just say thank you very much for, for being on it and being here. You know, Ralph told me about what you did, Nunzio, and I have a question for you. You know, what, why in the world would you make a donation to Israel, number one? And what are your thoughts as to what's going on in today's world?

So, well, thank you for asking that. I mean, I'm motivated that to do certain things through the sparkling of an action or of something that happened globally or locally. You know, I don't care as long as that moves me. And if I can contribute either with a voice or with an act or a contribution physically or donating, for me is important. I was very moved emotionally by what I saw on October 7th. I was very sad. I cried internally. And you have to understand that here in the United States, we don't have the privilege to see what Europe television stations shows. You know, for political reasons sometimes, but they show much more than we know that the CBS, NBC, and whatever, even CNN shows it to us. And when I saw those atrocities, um, I, I, you know, I, I, I, I've been really, you know, connected to that kind of, uh, um, I would say like, you know, really sad moments, you know what I mean? And Look, I understand that, you know, that where you are in war, you know, there are things that you do, you know, that unfortunately, and I say with a very light meaning, is justified, you know, because you are in war. Yeah, but when I hear you're not in war, I mean, they're not justification from any, you know, in this world and outside the world that can justify what I saw, what I learned, and what I you know, what I experienced from far away, you know, emotionally looking in, you know, those families and children, and I don't want to go back there. So I said I want to contribute. I contributed many times, you know, even for things that happened in Bangladesh or whatever, but that was the, you know, the time that I had to contribute in a very, for me, meaningful way and and more with the spirit than the merry dollars, which doesn't mean anything.

Well, I just really wanted to say thank you because it really is meaningful that not only that you contributed, but that you thought to even contribute, because there was a time at the very beginning of this war when we were seeing all the marching in and all of these crazy things going on all over the world and in the university campuses and what have you, that we felt very, very alone. Really, it was incredibly difficult. It's come around. There's a lot of countries that have come out positively saying, "Hey, look, you know, we have freedom of speech, so people might be parading in our streets, but that's not how we feel as a country." And it's been— we've had a lot more support from people. And that's been incredibly positive. It's, you know, you don't need support from people when you're flying high. When everything's going great, that's not, you know, people are always willing to help and support you. But when things are really difficult and tough and we're facing crazy decisions that have a lot of negative publicity because of them. It's important to have that support, and I really want to thank you. So—

No, no, Guy, listen, I thank you to, you know, to say what you believe in. And, you know, the other reason why I was very moved, because I feel connected to a world that was unknown to me. You know, and thanks to, you know, my very good friend, Raf Madeb, and others, you know, and don't forget, I'm also connected to two families now, you know, because my daughter is married with a very fine Jewish man, which I love him, and he has like a great family behind to support whatever he believes, and we respect that, because at the end of the day, that is all about respect. And I cannot allow myself to break bread with Ralph and many others that I met through Ralph and not show my support in a very small way, because, you know, it's a drop in the ocean what we do, but at least it's something, you know what I mean? And I like that, you know, our beliefs, you know, they don't have to stop with a practice that, you know, that is different. But it's all about family, about belief, about, you know, respect, about, you know— and that is what motivated me more than anything else, beside the atrocity, beside the images, and beside everything that, you know, that still are very marked in my mind. And which, you know, it's like a 9/11. You would never really forget those moments. Yeah.

So yeah, I was—

I mean, Simon, just, uh, I want to reiterate two points. His contribution was a matching contribution. He's making it seem like we— it was the initial contribution was $36,000. Don't you give $10,000? It's not— it's not a small case.

No, no, I know that.

But it's— it was a third. I matched— I was so overtaken by his generosity, which we, we, we raised it in about 12 minutes. I mean, you know, we put it on our Rosh Chodesh chat. The boys gave $16,000. Nunzio gave $10, I was so overwhelmed that I decided I'm giving $10 just to match Nunzio. So I, you know, it's not like he gave $5. I mean, the guy— and I'll tell you, Nunzio, uh, left Winebow after 40 years or some crazy amount of time. And, and yet, how much?

32 years.

52?

32. Hey, hey, hey, you got a full head of hair, Nunzio.

That's pretty good. 32 years at Winebow and started his own company. Um, because of his passion. He doesn't need to do this. His wife also owns a restaurant. Um, you know, that's— it's, you know, starting a whole new company. Believe me, I know the expenses. And to me, it was just so, so overwhelmingly, um, generous, um, that, um, it says a lot. It says a lot of his character. And that, needless to say, that all these kosher, kosher wines that you're enjoying, all these kosher Wines that are from Italy are really under his direction. I mean, this is— this is— he has a huge contribution both financially here, and he has a, you know, let's say, as, you know, I don't know how to call it, like a sort of like a super-tentorial, we would say.

No, it's a spiritual connection. It's definitely a spiritual commitment, because to go with these things being kosher, it's not just becoming a distributor for for the wines that are coming out of Italy, it's taking these wines and having to go through all of the grief of making them kosher and then bringing them to the world, distributing to the world.

Nunzio has learned more about rabbinical kosher winemaking process and about mashkias more than half the people drinking the wine. I know, I know.

He was amazed. I'm still amazed, you know, sometimes one— listen, I, I don't know if we can get into this conversation already, but, you know, let's— to me, that is like really open. So, uh, I was, uh, exposed to the kosher world, um, in a very technical way. And I mean it, you know, in a sense that it was like a kind of like, uh, you know, I do this for you, you give this fee, that's it, you know. In other words, about 10 or 12 years ago—

that was before us, that was before us.

Yeah, before, before, um, I'm very good friend with the, I believe, one of the top, if he's not the top winemaker in the world. As a matter of fact, he's the president of oenology in the world. Uh, his name is Ricardo Cotarella. And as a matter of fact, Ricardo Mattarella is responsible for making a project very successful. I don't know now in which stage is, but there is the first project in Israel that, you know, that has vineyards between the Arabs, Palestinians and Jewish settlers. You know, where they make this wine, and he's under his governance, you know, in terms of technology. Wow. Yeah, so that is really something that, you know, that moved him to make a batch of kosher wine, um, under somebody that commissioned this batch that lived in France.

Okay.

Another winemaker, kosher winemaker. And so when the wine was ready to ship, you know, Ricardo that worked with Winebow with his own brands at that time called Falisco asked the national importer which was at that time Winebow to do him a favor, you know, basically to enter this wine and to ship to a couple of, I believe, wine shops in Crown Heights here in Brooklyn. And that's how we started these things. And we did like, you know, under a small fee, you know, just to facilitate this kind of a process, you know. And it went down for maybe 1 or 2 or even 3 years. The problem is, was like, you know, that here, not there, that we had some problems, you know, with these retailers. And we stopped that project without knowing that the production back to Italy was already advanced for 2 or 3 vintages. So those are 2 or 3 vintages were not exported anymore in the United States and they stayed in France and we didn't know what happened. Well, I believe that, you know, that Ralph had this wine, he fell in love with this wine and he called me. I was still, you know, part of the organization of Weinberg at that time. I was in charge of all the imports. It was like a big huge book, about $110-120 million book. So when he called me, I says, oh no, another one of these people that just want to me, you know, just to import, then, you know, I have to fight with the fee, blah blah blah blah. But he said something that, you know, that really resonated with me, you know. And I said that, uh, Nunzio, I like these wines because I really want to change the perception of the American Jewish drinkers and consumers that they have to find, you know, quality in their bottles. In my business, and I am in the business for almost 40 years, you know, I started very young, you know, I always been driven by passion on my own expense because passion doesn't bring money, passion brings gratifying.

Yeah.

And so I saw in that statement, and I spoke on the phone with him, um, some sort of a light that was like mine, you know, that, you know, that was a mission more than like a business deal. And that is where I, you know, I started to go ahead with that kind of, you know, request that you wanted. Of course, I had to make my money, so I fought with him with the percentage, but I gave him a good discount. He was happy, I was happy for the company that I worked for, and we moved, you know, like really pretty quickly in advance this wine that at that time was still the old wine. Because he bought the vintage that was already done without his intervention, uh, with his own team in Italy, with, you know, uh, Ravma. I don't know if you know Umberto Piperno and so on. So anyway, um, so that's what, you know, really went forward. The thing that happened after that was, uh, related to me rather than this project. Because I decided that after 32 years to resign from Winebow. You have to remember when I joined Winebow, which was like the greatest company in, in the United States as an importer and distributor for Italian wines, and not only Italian. I started when the revenue was about $4 million. I left Winebow when it was $875 million. $5 million. And so I said, you know what, my path, you know, is finished. Because the next step would be to go to a billion dollar, and that passion that I preserved, you know, the fact that, you know, that I can still shake hands with a calloused, you know, hands from a grower, the fact that I can dirty my boots going through the vineyards, and the fact that I can be in the cellars until 1 o'clock in the morning tasting every single barrel with another producer, it will finish. And I'm still young, I don't want to be in that way. I don't want to get stuck behind a computer or a screen just preparing, you know, like, you know, reports and things like that. So I decided with, you know, with the blessing of my wife, because she's a saint, you know, She's really someone that, you know, that I devoted all my life for her, for my family, because she allowed me to do what I want to do. You have to understand that, you know, that I was in charge of Chile, Argentina, France, Portugal, Spain, Austria, Italy. I, I was traveling between 180, 190 days away from, from home. And that is for a tight family. You know exactly what I mean. It's very, very, very difficult. And if I didn't have a woman like my wife, I could never really achieve anything. So I was very blessed to do that. And I went there. Listen, I said, I sit down one night in a beautiful restaurant, drinking beautiful wines, and says, Angela, I think that my life in Weinbau was finished and I want to move on and I want to visit places that I didn't visit yet, you know, and I want to really go back again. I says, "Nuncio, you are not young anymore, but if that passion is still alive and if the passion is still strong, I— you will have my full support." more than anything else. And that's what we did. So I, I, after 6 months, I acquired this small company called Pane Bianco. Um, ironically, ironically, Mr. Pane Bianco, Livio, which was a friend of mine, passed on 2015. But when I started in Weinberg, okay, I was 25, I took his place.

Wow.

Wow.

So that is a circle of life, you know, in my book. And that's why I says, you know, the sign of God, that's my company. I don't care how much. And fortunately had the wines that I like, you know, I changed a few things, but this, the skeleton over the company and not the company, but over the portfolio is still almost the same, which is—

Simon, for me, to me, this caused a little bit of a problem. Because, you know, uh, in French wines, you know my craziness about French, you know, and I know, I know every single supplier and where the wine comes from. But in Italy, you know, my education really came from my family in Milan, which we spoke about, and came from Nunzio. Like, 90% of my education on wine came from Nunzio. And at that point, I was terrified because, you know, he was gonna have a non-compete And we had a lot of stuff in the barrel and I won't make a move. He's like my— I told him he's my Jewish Pope. I need blessing on these wines.

Yeah, it was a challenge at the beginning, Simon, because I wanted to give him like more assistance, but I know that I couldn't. But we also find a way to navigate with these adversities. And we find also other companies, you know, other wineries that, you know, that they were friends, you know. He relied on my expertise and I appreciate that. I was very, I would say, thankful for that because he started a beautiful project, you know. And again, the motivation was aligned with my mission. As a professional, which means that, you know, that I could speak the same language in certain ways, you know, with two— with the same product made in different ways. I learned a lot, you know, in the process. I learned a lot in the culture. I learned a lot, you know, in the people because I was allowed to spend many times, you know, with these, you know, with Rolf friends, which they respect me, I respect them. So, and that was like, you know, like a kind of like a dive in a culture that it was for me reading only one way. And now I've seen different ways. And that was for me an open—

And Simon, he had open access to everything. Meaning, tal mashgiach, the guys who are doing the wine, the actual employees, you know, he was obviously the winemakers. And all the rabbis, the rabbinical supervision. When we wanted to do Mevushal wines, he was speculative as well. He understood the process. He called the people in France. He called the Rabbi Wolf from Amsterdam to understand the process. You know, his reputation's on the line as well. You're taking a— doesn't matter from where, Austria, France, California, and you're gonna pasteurize it or boil it. You know, it's his name on the line.

So it was a big—

every part of the process, Nunzio was given carte blanche. And if he didn't like something, he told me if, you know, if some of the— I'll give you some simple things. Some of the mashkiach, we're not following the winemaker's, um, instructions. It's, it's exact instructions. You take a guy like Beppe Pescaia, okay, no import to America. Nunjo, we found him through somebody else, but right away I wouldn't even call him without Nunjo. You should know, Simon, Pescaia wines, they're coming to Israel soon. They're going to be, you know, these are— have a lot of A lot of sacrifice, both Jewish and non-Jewish sacrifice to make that wine kosher. I call him the wine Nazi. You know, he won't let them move right or left. When he didn't like how an employee, Nunzio had to get on the phone, tell the guy, do not bring me this mashgiach anymore because he won't climb on the barrel and he has a separate way to put the sulfite or if it's citrate or whatever he wants to put into the barrel, into the tank. Into the tank. It has to be done his way. His way. And if it's not his way, he won't let it— he won't let— he won't let it done the way he bottles it. You know, he's very particular. I tell Beppe all the time, I can operate on his— on his— in his winery, it's spotless. You don't find it like in any other— almost any other wineries. And you know, Nunzio was involved in every single decision. I let him like carte blanche. It wasn't like these things, just do what I say and you get a rubber stamp of approval. I mean, he really, really helped develop this, this, the, the, the quality, the passion, you know, the, uh, even quantity. He told me, Ralph, you're doing too much of this, you can get into trouble here. Like every little detail he was on top of.

You know, I, I can hear— the one thing I can hear loud and clear is the passion from both of you. I, Doc, I know your passion for, for ages. but, and I have met you once, Nunzio. I don't remember exactly where, but we did definitely meet.

I'll tell you where.

It was in the restaurant.

My house.

Oh, in your house. Right, right. We had a tasting.

You remember, Nunzio? In my house we had like a pseudo— was it the same Roscoe's Club people?

Right.

But we had the Spanish— Moisés Cohen was there.

Yeah.

And he put some of his wines out. Because we were hosting him because I guess it was a hard time. Yeah, yeah, royal guys couldn't get together. And, and I invited Nunzio to come, and we did a Follesco vertical there.

Yes. Wow. Yes, I remember. I remember very well.

Wow.

That's where you met him.

So yeah, no, I, I, I, I hear loud and clear the passion. I hear loud and clear the passion. And that's interesting that you gave me, uh, the beginnings of everything and, and what led up to it. You're in a unique position because you're tasting, and you're tasting in a non-biased way, both the kosher and the non-kosher. Is there, is there a difference in your mind that you're tasting out of those, out of these, the products that are coming out?

It's a great question because, uh, really, I mean, the first time I drank a kosher wine was, um, when we— I remember that, you know, with the Winebow, we were the official importer of Yardén at one point, which was like a kind of like became very commercial, you know, and they had like, you know, strictly kosher wines, obviously wines. And I have to say that, you know, that I was pretty impressed, you know, for the quality and for the, you know, for the texture and things like that. You know, at the end of the day, I mean, we're talking about Mediterranean Basin, you know, the sun is almost the same of Sicily and Sardinia or the coast of Tuscany or even Catalonia, you know, whatever. So we are talking about most of, for the most part, international varietals, you know, which most of the time they come from greenhouses in France. We're talking about obviously method that 30 or 25, 30 years ago, they were still not up to the level of, you know, technical level that now, you know, we have. But I remember that, you know, that was like really a wine that, you know, that didn't move me very well, but it was done well, you know, technically speaking. When I start to taste the wines through the M&M Imports with, you know, with Ralph, and we tasted some French wines, you know, at the beginning, I was really impressed. I was really impressed. I says, it doesn't matter if it's kosher or not kosher, I will drink this wine, you know. I will drink very, you know, very easily. Um, so, and I start to learn a little bit more about the process, you know, what it will entail. At the end of the day, it's just like a manipulation that is different, but it doesn't add or take out things that, you know, that they are responsible for the final product. Um, I'm talking about caution, obviously.

Yeah. So the next question is Mevuchal. Have you— have you—

I refuse to, you know, to drink it and to accept it. I mean, with all due respect, you know, I mean, you know, I have a great respect for you, you know that. But for my belief and for what I wake up in the morning every day, you know, for wines, I don't have a one ounce of understanding why we have to boil the wines.

Okay, okay. But have you tasted it?

Yeah, I did.

That's why you feel like this. Okay. Well, it's a non-biased— that's perfectly fine. That's what I was looking for. I was looking for somebody to give me a real non-biased opinion.

So listen, again, I mean, there are many things, even in food preparation, there are many things that you prepare in certain ways because the tradition and the method of the application has to be that way for religious or for even for medical reasons, you know, whatever it is. But I mean, for me, for our world, you know, I don't believe that, you know, it's something that beside the religion factor is something that is a very Let's put it this way. I believe that it's like, like, uh, I don't like it.

Okay, I get it. I get it 100%. I get it. You're, you know, you're echoing the same feelings of just about all of the high-end kosher wine drinkers. So that's why I was, I was wondering, you know, it's always good to hear an opinion that's outside of my own world.

Um, and I'm sorry to interrupt you.

I mean, no, no, you're not.

There are many things that, you know, that I started to appreciate it, you know, through these few last years, you know, through the culture that invited me into, you know, Ralph and, and many other people in his community. For example, I appreciate very much how you guys prepare meat. For example, you know, I love it the way that you guys have me. Um, it's, uh, yeah, it's a cut, you know, that is very, you know, has to be done in certain ways. And but the preparation is fantastic. I mean, I, I was invited many times by, you know, by, by Ralph to attend these dinners and And that for me is very important because at the end of the day we're talking about the tables. For us, as you guys, tables is a sacred momentum, you know. Table, when you eat and when you gather everybody around the table, that is like, you know, really the most, I would say, high-end moment that, you know, that you share with your family, with your friends, with the you know, with the people that you love and respect and sharing food, that is a practice that I respect very much. And if I'm invited to a table, you know, if it's for business or if it's for pleasure, if it's for family, traditional rituals, I mean, I'm very appreciative. And when I can match not only the people but also the food with the wine, that is the supreme, you know, achievement that you can get. And so I appreciate very much how cultures, you know, that, you know, especially, you know, from, uh, from, for what I believe that they are very close, you know, to our tradition, Italian tradition, like the Jewish tradition, um, when I appreciate, you know, they, they, they, they're making, you know, I, I, I feel very close.

That's a huge compliment to Ralph.

Yeah.

That's a huge compliment to Ralph, and also to— I've enjoyed meals at Ralph's as well. So it's, um, yeah, I— it's a huge compliment. Baruch Hashem. Thank you. Thank you.

I have—

there are a lot of subjects that I could bring up in this, but there is— I want to pick one specific one because I would love to have you both back on again and to talk in the future. I want to pick one of the things that people, after your last conversation on the Kosher Terroir Doctor, was that could you focus on one region and speak a little bit about that region? And having you, Nunzio, on the call on this program, I think it would be super enlightening to pick a region that is, that's interesting to you both, that you, maybe one that you're promoting a wine from now, or one that you are going to be promoting a wine from, and, um, and talk a little bit about it and what makes the region special. Because I know each of the regions within Italy is its own world. And it has its own things that are special.

Nunzio, you pick. I'm ready for all of them.

Well, I want to be a little bit partial, you know, obviously it would be Italy, even though you asked me a question before, which is the wine that, you know, that I like to choose more if I will have a possibility.

Yeah.

There is a wine that, you know, that comes not far away from Israel, which is in Lebanon.

Yeah.

And it's Château Musard. That is a wine that for me really encapsules everything that I like, you know, between the soil, the tradition, the family behind, the varietals, and in the way that they make.

Tell me a little bit about it. It's white, red? What are the varietals?

It's a Bacchus Valley. And, uh, okay, yeah, I would like to talk next time maybe with a glass of wine over this wine, which is very— become very rare to find bottles and vintages that I like. But this is one of the wine that, you know, that if I can get outside Italy all the time, beside, you know, the Châteauneuf-du-Pape from Beaucastel and some others, That's what I would like to, you know, to always have next to me, you know, to drink.

What's special about it?

That's my lineage. Yeah, he's Lebanese.

He's Lebanese.

So maybe we can get a—

You see, I cannot talk about these things because the first thing that he does, he says, let's go there and make a kosher wine.

Let's go make a kosher wine. Maybe it'll be an international project.

That's the thing that I always, you know, I have in front of me every time that I speak about a wine that he doesn't like.

Tell me a little bit about it though. What's so special about it? What varietals?

And we talk about Cabernet, Cabernet Sauvignon, okay, and a little bit of Cabernet Franc as well. You know, they planted more international varietals, okay, and you know, they have been, I would say, trained not only in the winery but also in the viticulture by French culture rather than, uh, you know, than their own. But, uh, but, um, it's a Bordeaux blend, a real, a real Bordeaux blend. But let's talk another time about that.

Okay.

Now, you know, let's talk about Italy because, uh, yeah, you know, it's something that, that, uh, I don't know if I will have an opportunity to, to have you again.

So I, so I was talking, I was thinking of regions of Italy when I asked you about regions. So what's, what's an interesting region in Italy where you feel it's just incredibly special?

So I'll start to say that, um, that when you want to learn about Italian wines, which is the most difficult things to do because Italy, um, has this kind of values you know, that I always mention to any seminar or tastings that I'm invited to. And one thing is that, you know, that, you know, that is very, very, very unique is what we call, you know, in Italian biodiversità, diversity, which means, you know, that you have more than 650 official varietals in Italy, which no other part of the world has. You know, I was reading some very— I would say doubt information— that, you know, more than 60% of the wines that, you know, they're being produced in France, they're made by 10 varietals, basically. And and these are even higher when you come to United States, for example, you know, which I believe that was an average of 8 varietals. And when you go to Chile, it's even more. And when you go to Argentina, it's even more, you know, when we talk about 80% is Malbec, you know. When you go to Italy, I mean, it's a Jurassic Park, you know, for when it comes to varietals. Wow. So, and not only with wines but also with food, because you can have the same dish prepared in 50 vari— you know, variations. The same dish with the same ingredients but different variables. We're talking about onions. For onions, which is the simple food, okay, we have almost like a 35, you know, type of onions in Italy. So that is something that is a treasure, okay? But it's also very difficult to understand. And, you know, the acumen that the gentleman that is in between us has, he understood right away that. And that's why for me, even though he comes from a different culture, when he become— when it becomes wines For me, you know, it's easier to talk to him about varietals because he understands, because he classified already geographically speaking, historically speaking, and also making speaking. So, and that is something that I had to say because learning about Italian wines is not an easy thing to do. When somebody comes to me and says, listen, Nunzio, I love Italian wines, but What do I should do to learn? And he says, listen, can you invest $50? I say, yeah, I can. Do you have a friend that you can invest another $50? Yes. Do you have another friend that can invest another $50? Yes. Can you make 4 friends that invest $200? Yes. Okay, great. So go to a store and buy a case of every different bottles, 12 bottles, You go home with these 4 friends, you can have a pizza, you can have hamburger, you can have a whatever you like, don't worry, cheese or whatever. You cover the each bottle with a brown bag and you start to pour. And you need to understand what is that the difference between one to each other. Doesn't matter if it's like a $10 or $50 a bottle because diversity It's a kind of like, you know, really our strength in certain ways. So why is that? Because with that, you know, is also value. Most of the time you buy a wine that is $20 or even $15 and you drink for like a wine that is costing from another region another part of the world that is $40 or even $50. Value, it's incredible, incredible high. You know, when we talk about Pinot Grigio, for example, which is the simple thing that, you know, that we're gonna have 95% of the production in Italy of Pinot Grigio is so— is consumed outside Italy.

Yeah, yeah.

Can you believe that? Wow. But it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a It's a commodity that has a spectrum of quality that is infinite. You can buy something at $5 in the store to buy something that is $250 in the store.

It's amazing to me.

Oh, you know, all that, you know, you have to learn it. And it's not easy. It's not easy to learn. It's not easy to understand where this place is against the other place, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So why I say that is because it's important to map out these kind of challenges before you dive in. And if you want to really be serious about Italian wines, you have to start from Piedmont. You have to start from Langhe. You have to start learning the diversity of a Nebbiolo, of a Barbera, of Arneis, of Dolcetto, and so on. And that is the first thing that you have to do. It's like learning math. You know, at the beginning at 5 years old, you know, with additions. When you learn that, then you move, you know, to Toscany. And when you move to Toscany, then you move to Veneto and so on. So you have to take really region by region, sometimes section by section, in the Italian peninsula. I like to start with the north, central, and south, and That is the first, you know, the first time, you know, trying to charge. For me, you know, I'm not a gambler. I don't— never gamble in my life. And it doesn't, doesn't give me anything. But if I would have to gamble on the horse tracking, you know, I would never— you know, I never put my money on the horse. I will put the money on the joker. You know, the one that drives the horse. And that's why I did, you know, at the beginning of my career, I always follow the winemaker rather than the vineyards, the locations, and so on. My network, I spend like at least an hour a day to go around my connection in Italy with the winemakers that now they're my age, now there are new ones that come again. And says, why is that? Why these, you know, what is that you find that like, you know, with the climate, especially now with the climate change, you know, I have to be in connection with these winemakers. And that's why I don't have for now a preferred region. I do have for now, you know, something that, you know, is developing because in my humble opinion, when a wine becomes a trend, it's already late. You know, it's a trend because everybody knows that it's a trend. Yeah. But it's not undiscovered. So I like when I go in Italy and I move on from, or move off from my program or my planning, and I go and take my car you know, to a place that I was never before. Because I want to learn about the variety that nobody knows. I want to learn about the soil that is a, you know, volcanic that is meeting with the granitic soil and what is developing on that. I want to learn about, you know, that gentleman that has only 3 hectares of land with an acre and a half of old vines. What is he doing there? You know, I want to learn how he treats, you know, the wood aging, you know, if so. So those are the things that, you know, that, you know, I would say claim my interest. I like the Etna wines in Sicily, not now that everybody knows. I started to go to Sicily on the Mount Etna when it's still active as a volcano. Volcano, uh, 25, 30 years ago, you know, and that's when I discovered like the potential of the land. So that's, that's what I did. But if I have to put myself on the plane and I have only one place to go and match my thirst of, uh, uh, of wine with the food, because they always have to go together, for now will be Sicily. Wow. Even though my love is with, you know, with the Piedmont.

So let me ask you a question because you really kind of blended two things together, at least two things that people normally separate, but you really brought them together. I found that there are winemakers who focus on the process and winemakers who focus on the vineyard. And there are some winemakers who focus on both. And ideally, you can't make good wine without great grapes. But very often winemakers leave that to—

Agronomists.

To the growers. But—

Agronomists.

Agronomists, right. Right, right, right. Agronomists is the better answer than growers because agronomists is the are the people who are actually really, uh, direct how everything goes. Um, is that the same in Italy, or do you find that the winemakers have to be amazing agronomists as well?

We have amazing agronomists. Okay. You know, if you want to build a beautiful home, you need an architect and you need an engineer. Yeah. The architect doesn't know the, you know, the weight that the floor over that particular home has to hold, you know, but he knows how to design inside. And that's what this blend is important. I import the wine that is from Bolgheri, a section of the northeast part, northwest part of Tuscany. And this family that owns these vineyards. They're very special, and the father, his name is Attilio Scienza. For me, he's the one, the most important agronomist in the world. I have several books that, you know, that I read all the time and opens, I mean, new frontiers for me. All the time. He is not the winemaker, and he knows, but he's a great agronomist, and his job is to find the combination of the varietal in the particular vineyards and bring the fruit healthy to the hand of the winemaker, which by the way is his son. Okay. So it's like a huge family effort. So what I'm saying here, here is Yes, you can find somebody that, you know, that knows and recognize the challenges in the vineyards. But the truth of the matter is that, you know, that you should define the two roles. Okay, got it. That is important unless you have like, you know, 5 hectares of vineyards and, you know, and that vineyard is in the family for the past 3 generations and you know everybody. Everything about it. Yes, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

But if you start to have like the 20, 30, 50, and beyond, uh, actors, you know, you need the defined roles.

Got it.

So that's, that's what it is. Look, Simon, I think that, you know, that, uh, I believe that, uh, and I go back on the kosher side now, I believe that what, uh, Ralph started It's not just another business. I think that what he started is a movement, a movement of people that in your community has been exposed and for the first time, not only for the kosher wine that, you know, that's part of your daily routine if you drink, but exposed to the quality of the wines. I quite often meet people that they are in the fashion industry that, you know, that they are Jewish people, okay? And, you know, the Made in Italy for them is like, you know, like the mantra, you know? Obviously textiles and, you know, shirts and whatever. And I am amazed at how they really understood, you know, how really the quality and the concept of the Italian manufacturers. They cannot drink our wines, they cannot eat our food, but they absorb through certain functions that we have in Italy, hotels, vacation sites, art, textile, which can be used from both cultures without restrictions. And I do believe that, you know, that can be done also with the kosher wines made with the quality grapes, quality production, with a quality, you know, project behind. And that's why I believe that Ralph, you know, with his vision and with his determination started that. And until that light and that little, you know, fire that I, that I discovered through a phone call most 10 years ago, most— until that is present, he will have always my back.

Hey, you know, I, I, I, I want to thank you, um, because I, I've taken up a lot of your time, but I want to thank you. And I also especially for giving us some incredible insights into what makes Italy so special and what makes Italian wine so special. Your description of the, of the details— and it's not just about the varietals, it's about the varietals and how they interact with the regions and the diversity of everything. I never thought about it that way. You opened my mind. And, uh, and I thank you. I really thank you for that.

Thank you.

I, I have— I want to end off on something.

Please.

I want to end off on, uh, um, a few, few more minutes. But, you know, take your time.

I'm—

I don't want to take care of, you know, because I feel like the listener, we should give them a little direction, uh, and let Nunzio do it. I don't want to bias his opinion. Nunzio, you know my entire portfolio— north, central Italy, Tuscany, Campania, you know, Piedmont. We even have Amarone being developed by Fumianelli. By the way, that would be also another interesting interview because that's totally different. Nunzio met him, Armando Fumianelli, 28 generations, speaks English very well, would be great for a podcast as well. But Nunzio, you know our entire portfolio. Let's say, uh, you were the professional speaker on behalf of M&M.

What—

and, uh, you know, somebody calls up Simon and says, Simon, I want— I love the me— I love the podcast, I want to try one of the wines. So what would you recommend from all the different regions? Um, let's say maybe somebody to start and somebody, let's say, who has a little experience. We're not talking about the super experienced like Simon or myself, but let's say some— an entry-level guy comes in and says, Simon, what did Nunzio say for an entry-level guy to try to get into the wine from my portfolio, let's assume? And let's say somebody who wants to go a little further, what— which one Wines would you recommend as an entry level?

Uh, for red— I mean, for white, it would be the Arneis from Pescaglia. And from red, I would say still now the Montepulciano from Valeriale. I like that kind of vibrancy. I like that kind of a spice that, you know, that is the same on the red. I'm a little bit biased because I suggest the wines that, you know, that they're very, very, very close to the conventional wines, okay? Which most of your book is like that. That's why I like it, you know. So, um, as entry level, I like those two because I, I believe that they're very, um, um, I would say fedele, you know, like, not true, not true to the the kosher— I mean, the non-kosher side. As, uh, as the upper one, I like the ones that, you know, that, uh, Alessandro Scherlai is making, you know, for you. I think that, you know, the guy's, you know, he's doing a great job.

So which ones are those?

Yeah, especially the Rocca di Foscinella. I think that, you know, I believe that, you know, that is the pinnacle of, uh, that conjunction, you know, between, uh, your team in Italy, you as a vision, and Alessandro that understood, you know, after few discussions that I had also with him, but he's a very intelligent guy, so he didn't need me, but he understood what was your final points, the destination, and then why. And I believe that, you know, that he surpassed all my expectations. So let's say that, you know, that also the Brunello from Tassi I mean, I'm very, very, very, very, very impressed about that.

I mean, yeah. I would have saved that for the wine geeks like us. I mean, that's the highest rated, it's the highest rated kosher wine ever given by Parker is ours.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, listen, I was, that's a different story, but you know, anyway, I think that, you know, that was, you know, really, You know, a testimony that quality is no compromise with the function of intervening with the different hats. And that's what you have to believe and bring it on.

So, Sami, let me just, let me, you know, people don't realize that Nunzio just gave you literally a 1,000-page book on what we've done. I mean, he says it in code words, so to speak.

Me? No, you, you, you, you.

Yeah, I don't know how much we've done.

No, no, no, it's you, it's you.

Because I know that—

I mean, I mean, beside the vision that— yeah, and listen, we are not here to, you know, to violin each other, but yeah, we are here to make sure that whoever read or sees your podcast or re— I mean, understands, you know, through your voice and through your platform, which you know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's impressive what you do. They have to understand that, you know, there is a, a, a, there is not a business model here. That's why I said this is a mission that is greater than everything else. Look what Rafa has behind, how many books. I've been in his house. I mean, it's a temple of studying, okay? This gentleman, you know, only has to study for his own religion purposes. Which I respect very much, not only for his professional purposes, but he has time to dedicate it to this great crusade. Because drinking quality wines in these very conservative communities, which I learned more through him and through this experience of my life, it's not the easiest things to do. And I believe that, you know, that I told him, I tell him all the time, he has to take a little bit more ownership of that, you know, uh, practice. Leave others to do the mechanical stuff, and him, he has to be a little bit more involved. I know endless times, you know, that, you know, that he spends, you know, you know, money, energy, and time away from his family to educate people, and that is the most beautiful thing.

Yeah, but he's also a hands-on person, so he, he, he's a slightly obsessive compulsive.

So you cannot talk so freely in front of him.

I know, I know, I know, I can't.

Let's do it, let's do it, let's do it.

Yes, but I mean, in, in the, in the summary there, you know, I mean, you have great wines, um, Simon, you know, you're talking about a beautiful white entry-level, you know, entry-level for our price market. You know, Munjo's price market and ours are totally different because of the cost of the rabbinical supervision. But a Paskaya arnès can be matched up against anybody's sencer in the kosher sencer market. And I have two sencers. I think it's just a beautiful northwest region of, you know, in Piemonte up north. And it's an excellent, we have a mebushal and non-mebushal, right? For the purists and the non-purists. But that's a great— and what he spoke about, Valeriale, is a Montepulciano d'Abruzzo, which is authentic. It's an authentic entry-level. You're not going to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars like even what we— like our Brunello. But it's a tremendous amount of value in that money. San Isidro is a new ripening vineyard, entry-level, beautiful bottle, short time in oak.

I consider them a hearty wine.

Yeah, yes, yeah. And those are great recommendations for the people who are going into the second chapter, you know, Roccafrancescanello. By the way, Simon, that's an excellent other idea. I said Armando Fumanelli, but not to take away from Alessandro Cellai, he's the king Tuscan. He's the king of Tuscany at this point. I mean, the Italian media writes of him as he's the, the one of the, one of the top Tuscan winemakers. Um, also a lot of history. And guess what? With Nunzio's help, we made some of the top— Zachy's put, just so you understand, Zachy's put— Zachy's from California, very famous— put Sodi di Senecolo, which is the top Castellare Sangiovese-based wine. It has to be labeled IGT because it doesn't stick to the norm values. Sangiovetto, which is the mother, the father clone. I think we mentioned this one. It got number one wine the year, and the same year we made it, 2019 was the first year we made it. We made that kosher. Now he talked about Rocca di Francinello, the number one selling Super Tuscan. Was Le Suga, that was ours. We making the higher level and we made Baffanero, all due to Nunzio's help. These are talking about super Tuscans. There's Baffanero, which will be released soon. I'm not sure when, but it's an Italian Merlot aged, um, the whole run, um, Simon, is 5,000 bottles, the entire production. Um, and we made the 300 for the first year because that's all he would let me And now that we got used to each other, 600. Now this is a great guy to also to get on your podcast because he just, he speaks English very well. By the way, once again, Nunzio introduced me to him, which is why he gets a lot of them. But like he said, for the guys who are coming into the second level, Super Tuscan is the way to go. Chianti is the way to go because it's, you know, you need to be able to go anywhere you go in the world and they're going to ask you about Italian wine. You got to know Chianti. You need to know the Chianti region. You don't need to know what it tastes like. You have to know why it tastes different than a French Bordeaux. I'm a crazy Francophile. Me and you have drank, you know, 2000 Leo Ville, we've drank Pop Clements in the new era, we've drank that Malartic 2005, and these aren't even my wines, right? I don't import them, but we've made Smith Lafitte, Lafite Rocher, I mean, and these are different profile. It doesn't sit to the same norm. Doesn't mean that, you know, The problem with, I think, in our people, and I think Nunca is just appreciating this, and Simon, you've spoken to thousands of winemakers. The problem, which is what made me, is our palate was driven to a certain type, over-oaked, very heavy wine, 16% volume, alcohol volume. You know, that's how our wine was pushed us in. And I think it's now time to separate, you know. Separate the boys from the men, so to speak. That is, we need to see what elegance is. We need to know what cherry and balsamic, which you find in Sangiovese-based wines, Chianti, are different than the big blackberry jammy, you know, heavy wines. Not saying they're not good. What I'm saying is they're different.

Very different, yes.

And I'll tell you this, and you ask me, Simon, what's the biggest thing I find? And I'll tell you, Nunzio, this is something we've touched on. I give them a Brunello blindly, you know. My Brunello Reserva got almost 100 points by Parker. Um, the only reason I didn't mention it was because it was not blind. Our original 2016 Franci Tassi wine was blind tasting with the non-kosher, got 96 points, which is the highest Parker ever gave to any kosher wine, right? You give them a Brunello, it's sexy, it's sultry, it's seductive. It's not big Bull Jammy. It's, you know, it's the maestro in the conducting. It's not, it's a violin, it's not the drums. And so people don't appreciate what that nuance in that wine is. You want an elegant wine. Yeah, you're not, maybe you won't eat it with, you know, braised short ribs. You need something a little bit more gentler when you pair it. But a Brunello, they command the highest respect. LVMH just bought Biondo Santi. Because it's a huge wine. Those are the same guys who make Château d'Yquem, which is the Sauternes. Yeah, so you know, it's about education. It's about explaining to them it's not the same wine. And a Brunello commends the highest, the highest dollars in the kosher and non-kosher market. And if I— if we don't educate them on it, they'll just think that this is— ah, this is just water, red water, as one of the Hasidim called me. But I think that it's an education and it's a process. And I will tell you, Simon, Nunzio tried to leave us 10 times. I mean, you don't need me anymore. Every time he says you don't need me anymore, I doubled down on my contract. I mean, I'm right.

I'll be always here, but you don't need me because you know, you reached the level now, you know what I mean?

So it was a great working relationship. It's a great working relationship. Relationship. Now we're great friends. I give it, you know, every time I have Italian, an Italian linguistic problem, some of these winemakers are really rustic. We're making a Barbaresco for a gentleman who doesn't even know how to say hello in English. I need Nunzia to travel to translate everything. But this is the type of wines we want to bring to the market. We want to bring the Barolos, You want to bring the Barbarescos, which are coming. They just, you know, they need time to age. But in terms of what you can find now in the market is what he's saying. You get a Falanghina from Campania, it'll match up against any white wine of anything you have. And by the way, you know how much Burgundy I love, Chardonnays. I mean, we made a Chardonnay from Pescaglia because it's on the same altitude as Burgundy and he was trained there. So that's why I was, that's why I made it. But you know, things open up and I think that You know, I think it's a great working relationship and there's great options now in the Italian kosher market. And that's only half my portfolio. I have a whole French portfolio, but I think the excitement for me is, and it's really thanks to Nunzio, is how to develop this market.

I love it. I totally love it. And I love your, I love your pink water. Yeah. No, I know exactly what you're talking about because some people need their mouth totally filled with something. And these are so elegant and they're so special and the textures and the nuances of tastes are just spectacular. I just absolutely love it.

And Nunzio mentioned a lot, you know, Israel is Mediterranean basin. I mean, the climate of Israel and the climate of Italy is the same. The people are the same. The culture is the same. And again, I can't thank Nunzio enough for all the help. But look, it pays back. Look, he sees what we're doing. He donates to our causes. I think that for that reason alone, we should continue to drink Italian wine. Even in this. No, I mean, people like to say, oh, we should only drink Israel. I think, I think now is the time that everybody has to stand together. You know, there was another time in history that this happened. I'm not talking about— in Corona, in Corona, the Israelis went to— no, you know, there was the highest death rate in Corona, uh, Simon, you should know, is in northern Italy, right? Medical care is terrible. It's very old-fashioned. There's a lot of old Old people, older generation is living in the north of Italy. You're talking about in the Veneto area and in these areas up north. And Israelis were the first to go from Israel to northern Italy. Why? Because you have a lot of alumni who were trained in Italian place that came back and came back and helped these hospitals up north during COVID I mean, a lot of people. From Israeli doctors that were trained there, went back and up. I mean, our countries are intertwined. And I think that this project is just another chance of intertwining. And you mentioned your first, you know, you said the world goes round. I've recently had conversations with Falesco, you know, with Dominga. There is the Jubilee coming up, right, in a year or so. And we are very excited to start to see if we can develop a kosher wine for that time period. You know, the fact that they came to us to talk to us about that really shows you the connection between Italy and Israel, the Jewish people and the Jewish— the Jewish people and the Italian people together as a whole. And, you know, it's very exciting. And I hope that God affords me the opportunity just to continue to do this. It's just— it's a great— it's a great feeling.

You know that you have always my full support. So I'm here to Whatever I can, you know, to any cause, I'm here. Beautiful.

I love it. Thank you. Thank you very, very much. Both of you. You're invited. You're invited. I'm not inviting you. This is not— this isn't just lip service. I have a room. I'll even get the pillows ready. Ready. And I would love you.

He has a great wine cellar, don't you?

I have some— I have some very interesting wines, not only Italian, but I do have some of the Italian wines in my cellar as well. And I would love to treat you and your wife.

Please to come. Okay?

Thank you very much.

All right. So thank you very much for being on the Kosher Terroir. And I really appreciate it. I appreciate the time.

Thank you very much for allowing me to talk and I couldn't have a better experience for the first time with you and Dr. Madep. And I just opened a Brunello di Montalcino 1988 this morning. So it's breathing because we have a Sunday in the middle. So now it's time to sip on it. Wow.

Okay.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, guys.

You know it. I love you. And Simon, thank you. You know, and you are now having another, another good friend in Jerusalem. Yes, sir.

Pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you. Take care.

Bye, guys.

Be well.

Thank you.

This is Simon Jacob again, your host of today's episode of The Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request. No matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. I hope you have enjoyed this episode of The Kosher Terroir. It was exciting and informative for me as well. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to The Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes. Again, thank you for listening to The Kosher Teruah.