Reinventing Online Courses to Inspire Learning and Create Change

I've long wanted to go into the school systems because I think counterproductive and becoming more counterproductive now that we've got AI in the works. However, it's such a bureaucratic, regulatory, compliance-driven industry that I think I would get, you know, a little frustrated and start banging my head against the wall, which is why I've stayed, you know, working with thought leaders and teaching them. But I've started to broaden more into this whole idea of customer experience, which is, you know, what is the journey through a business? And when we look at it, this is something that happens across the board. And as AI levels the playing field in terms of adding automation and allowing so many companies to compete that couldn't previously compete, I think that customer experience is going to become more and more possible as the counterbalance to automation.

Welcome to the Speakeasy Mastermind, where the real conversations happen behind closed doors with the boldest entrepreneurs, creators, and growth minds in the game. No fluff, no filters, just the raw strategies, personal stories, and mental models that move the needle. I'm Eric Berman. Now let's get into it. On today's episode of Inside the Speakeasy Mastermind, I am so excited to bring on Marisa Murgher-Choy, the queen of course design, curriculum experiences, and so much more. We're talking over $53 million on online course creation sales. 10 to 30x engagement from students that have gone through the programs that she's helped design and teach, and over 1 million hours of human action from people that have gone through her curriculums. Welcome to the show, Marisa McElroy.

Thank you. I'm super, super stoked to be here, and I love this particular community that you have gathered and are continuing to pull more and more extraordinary people into.

Oh, well, thank you so much. And it's, it's people like you that make an impact and such a difference. And we're all there and you've been so giving with your knowledge to people in the community. And thank you for that. And like, when I see that, I'm always going to go so excited. And I like want to say, ah, like so many people need to hear this because I mean, we're going to get into the world of course and course creation is not as easy as it sounds. And there's so many intricacies I can imagine. I can't wait to dig into that. But before we dig into that, your backstory is really fascinating. I know you were obviously weren't born to say, I'm going to be a course you know, guru out there, Christian, you, you are an artist, right? And then you kind of, all of a sudden here you are. Get, let's, can we talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, 100%. So I was an artist for the longest time. I was actually a photographer and then a documentary filmmaker, and I've been picking up kind of mediums along the way. Started out as a writer and courses kind of combine all of them. And one of the things that I realized is I was kind of a big dork and I love to learn and I love school. School, but I was kind of mystified how so many people do not love to learn and don't love school. And this whole other world of online courses, which lets people learn anything from anyone anywhere in the world that goes beyond the limited, you know, curriculum that's available inside of traditional education and allows you to go so deep into niche topics or topics that just the traditional system has not caught up with. The cutting edge of what's happening in business or in marketing or in medicine or whatever else it happens to be. But I realized the reason that people, you know, do not love to learn isn't because we're not naturally curious as humans. It's not because we don't want to grow and evolve and become better. It's because the way education has been designed, both in the school system, but also in online courses, is based on like the industrial revolution of getting people to memorize stuff, sit in desks, be talked at, just learn information. And really what we wanna do is we wanna grow and improve our lives and, you know, complete projects and develop skills and enhance our performance in particular areas and do it in a way where we've got autonomy over the way that we're learning. We feel like we're winning, we're set up for success. We kind of get into the flow of the learning experience and we're rewarded along the way and we kind of dance with it and it responds and interacts to us. And when that happens, then you can close the gap between what people, you know, want to do and what they feel like they have to do. So learning becomes fun, it becomes engaging, and before you know it, you turn regular humans into achievement machines.

God, I love what you're saying. I mean, it really, I've been thinking this for a while and I see, you know, with the future, especially AI, and again, I wanna get into that too. I mean, I just feel like this education industry is so due for a mega change and the way things are going, and I love that you are at the forefront talking about this. I mean, you nailed it. You're right. It just, you take any system that's been around for so many years and they're just teaching the same old way, not studying the habits of what really matters and what makes a difference. And it sounds like you've done that. I mean, how did you even get, I mean, you loved education. Where did you grow up?

Yeah, well, I grew up in Virginia, which actually had one of the best school systems in Northern Virginia. Then I moved to New Orleans, which had one of the worst school systems, but I was able to go to these sort of specialized, you know, schools that you had to test into and then cross-enrolled in art school and had a really alternative education. But I think it was less that than when I started to create my own courses as kind of a service provider. You know, I was doing web design and branding, and then people were asking me, how do you do it? And I started teaching courses, and then nobody would go through the courses. And I was like, what is going on here? And I remember going up to a colleague and said, are people buying your programs and not consuming them? And she looked at me and she said something. She says, well, Marisa, maybe some people aren't meant to succeed. And that felt like a punch in the gut because I was like, what? What do you mean people aren't meant to succeed? Don't we have a responsibility here to do our best to help people get results if they're paying us, you know, to, for this knowledge and information? And the kind of prevailing attitude at the time is that we're not responsible for what people do with the information. We're just giving the information and then now they've got the information, they should know better and then do better. But we weren't paying attention to human psychology and what makes us tick, what makes us actually respond and grow and overcome hardship and change our lives. And, you know, taking that more psychological perspective and, you know, becoming not just someone who has subject matter expertise, but someone who's designing an experience that creates results. And I think so many people get into courses because they feel like they've got knowledge, they've got wisdom, they've got expertise, but having that And being able to not just teach that, but actually empower people to use that information to change their lives in concrete and specific ways. Those are different things. And so learning the art of how do you create transformation in people, and that goes beyond just sharing knowledge and expertise, is a whole nother kind of discipline. And I think for the longest time, you know, that this world of thought leadership and course creation was simply about sharing what you know. And you hear that reframe all the time, but it wasn't focused on, no, you know, delivering transformation for people.

Yeah. I mean, it just rings true. As you know, I've been kind of business partners with Brian Tracy for 20-some-odd years, and it's just like, you know, we all talk about like there's so much content out there and in the world and all the people in our circles, people will buy the courses and it's just like, well, a common fact, how many people really consume the courses? You know, such a small percentage and it's just more stuff that sits in the book. And as Brian Tracy says, people all go to someday aisle, someday I'll read that, someday I'll take that and consume it. And I think because of what you're teaching, and I love that sort of became this fire in you that said, well, wait a second, we're like, you know, it is our responsibility. It sounds like you said, you know, not just to deliver it, but to get them to consume. Otherwise we're not completing the task at the end of the day is what I hear you saying. Right. So they just, because they got the book or course, they didn't do anything with it. So what's the point?

And it's not just about that. I mean, you can look at it from a business standpoint too. When people don't complete, they'll tend to refund. That's why the industry average is 10%. 20% refund rate, sometimes up to 30% refund rate. And also they're not going to continue to buy. They're not going to refer. They're not going to give you referrals. So I know that my average lifetime customer value is well over $5,000 per person. And I can actually track the percent likelihood that someone's going to buy the next thing. You know, say if someone invests $2,500 with me, if they earn their investment back, there's something like 22% likely. To actually, you know, reinvest, but this time at a $15,000 to $25,000 price point. So just simply, you know, getting someone to a specific result, in this case, because I'm helping people launch profitable and engaging online courses, if they actually do that successfully, then they're very likely to continue on with me.

I love it. So I wanna go back and close the loop. So you, you were starting off and you said you started building your own courses. You were doing what, some web design and some other things? You said, let me turn this into a course. And then is that all of a sudden where the light bulb went off? You said, well, wait a second, you know, what's going on? I should teach that.

Pretty well, that was the light bulb of, you know, Houston, we've got a problem. But there were other light bulbs afterwards in terms of what the solution is. So I remember the solution light bulb was when my husband Murray and I were in Rome and it was the last day of a 6-week trip and we were walking back in like the ancient neighborhood of Trastevere. And I remember we just heard this like scuffling, you know, off in the alleyway. And we look over, you know, thinking we're gonna be jumped, and this like young couple are hovered over their phones giggling. And Maurice says, Pokémon? And they start laughing and they just run off down the alley in search of more Pokémon. And I was like, what in the world is Pokémon, right? And he takes me home and he educates me on, he always educates me on all things related to like the internet and what's popular because I can't keep track of all that stuff, right? And he shows me these videos of people stampeding through Central Park in New York and Santa Monica and Taipei and cities around the world in chase of these little virtual creatures. And it was these like hordes of hundreds of people who weren't even taking the time to park their cars, just jumping out, running through the streets. And I was like, what in the world is happening? Because they were so excited in pursuit of these little virtual creatures. And I was like, wow, I have never in my life. And I've been doing this for years, seeing people get this excited about actually pursuing their hopes and dreams in life. What if we could get people so excited that they would be jumping out of their cars, running through the streets, you know, in pursuit of their highest kind of goals and dreams as a human being, their highest aspirations? What if we could use the same mechanics that they're using over here to get us chasing like stupid stuff, if you don't mind me saying, but get us to chase, you know, the things that really matter in life.

Matter, yeah, of course.

And that was the real light bulb where I was like, oh, and it's not just gamification. It's really this whole discipline of behavioral design, which is how do you drive action? How do you get people to make changes in their lives, to their behaviors, the way they do things, the way that they think?

Now, so did you go off, was this just trial and error, just, you know, instincts and gut to go in there and start like, okay, let me take my course and see if I can get more engagement, or did you start studying, you know, behavioral, et cetera, et cetera.

Both, man. I'm definitely an experiential learner, so I learn a lot by doing. And because I've had over 18,000 students over almost 15 years, that's like the amount of a small university. And I've had almost direct experience with the majority of them on coaching calls. I mean, I think I'm on stage for a full 30 hours a year, and then I'm doing dozens of workshops and trainings on top of that and coaching thousands of people. And because of that, it's like I kind of feel like a canary in the coal mine where I get to rapidly see what the patterns are. And then of course, yes, studying and reading and all of that on the side to understand the why and the science behind what I was observing. But a lot of it was the observation of something's not right here.

Yep. Yep. All right. And so let's just get into it. Cause if I'm, you know, I know our listeners now are probably excited to say, well, what is this magic stuff? I mean, you have something for starters. I know you video, you've got something called the Experience Formula. Is that— can we talk a little bit about that, or is that the main— your main list?

100%. So basically, after all of my, like, tests and experiences, I developed this. And this is 10 experiences that when you put them onto any kind of online course or program, even a one-on-one service, or anything that where you want to get people to take action in service of a particular result or outcome, When you stack all 10 of these core experiences, that's when you start to get the 10 to 30x student engagement and success. And you also want to avoid what I call the anti-experience formula, which is what most people do. And so each of the experiences have an anti-experience. So this is kind of the core of it. And I'll just explain like the first experience number 1 in 10, because that's the bookend or what I call an experience product. It's simply a product, program, or course or service or some kind of offer where you stack these 10 core experiences. Experiences to make it experiential and drive the transformation. So the first core experience is mission, and it's the opposite of too many masters. So many programs are just information dumps. They're trying to do too many things. People don't have a clear picture in their minds of what mission accomplished looks like. That's core experience number 10. So you want to create a mission for your course or program that's so clear and specific that you could film someone crossing to the finish line. All right. And this is important. And even in the personal development world, and I'm actually going to try to look up an example because this is one of my favorite examples that I helped someone who was actually a shaman and he was trying to teach, like sell this program on delivering these shamanic transmissions. And he was kind of like, yeah, come buy these shamanic transmissions. And I remember asking him, you know, he and his wife were inherited like a modality from Peruvian shamans and they were the ones who were carrying this methodology forward. And he was saying, you know, Marisa, it takes 18 years to, as an apprentice, to master these shamanic techniques. I was like, that's kind of a little bit of a hard sell right now to get someone to buy an 18-year program. I remember telling him that and I was like, well, you know, so we're talking about like a 6-week engagement here. You know, what can you promise in 6 weeks? He's like, well, I can't promise instant enlightenment. I'm not gonna kind of tell people you're gonna snap your fingers and all of a sudden ascend or something like that. Well, I'm like, it's not about that. And I said, is it possible for someone to get some of these, you know, experiences to have these experiences even for a fraction of a second? You know, 'cause he was talking about things like universal love and knowing. And I said, could they experience this for a fraction of a second? And he says, well, yeah, you know, they're certainly not gonna master, they're not gonna integrate this into their life, but they can touch it for a moment. And so here's the mission that I helped him craft on a group coaching call. And I give people the template, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is blank, because that puts you in the frame of not what you wanna teach or deliver, but what someone's saying yes to. And when you think about a mission, I stole this template from, you know, the Mission: Impossible series where, you know, Tom Cruise picks up the phone, Ethan Hunt, and he's like, your mission is to rescue the vault from the Kremlin before they catch you and everybody dies, you know? So it's, you've got 4 hours and 53 seconds in order to do it. It's kind of like that, you know, something so immediate, tangible, specific, urgent. And people know when it's gonna happen. So here's what we came up with for Helmet. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to receive through the 6-week shamanic initiation, the 4 essential gifts that every human needs to feel whole, loved, and on path. The gift of knowing your truth, the gift of connecting to your life energy, the gift of a quiet mind, and the gift of opening to the infinite. So now people could imagine receiving 4 gifts. So even though the gifts were shamanic initiations, they could imagine receiving it because this is essentially the gift of the north, south, east, and west. In that frame, even if it's like an energetic gift, people could imagine and visualize the transformation. And what happened is he emailed a bunch of people about this and got a 120% conversion rate and made $11,000 just like that because everybody he sent this new mission to said yes, and a couple of them referred friends, which is why we get down to—

that's a new one. 120% conversion. I like the way you do that. That's great.

Just by really making this sort of metaphysical, intangible, spiritual thing clear, specific, grounded, and filmable.

Well, I think there's also just the word and feeling of a mission. There's the psychological game in there, if you will, just by your sort of tactic number 1, I assume, right? Because that's envisioning that as somebody receiving that message. Ooh, I get to go on this mission of something I'm passionate about.

100%. And then the whole program itself, the whole engagement is basically based on getting people to mission accomplished, removing friction points, chunking down the path, ramping people up from small, simple actions and rewards to larger and larger actions and rewards. So they're really in that flow channel where they're not bored, they're not anxious. It's the right level of channel of challenge to kind of ramp them up, balancing their skill and then rewarding them along the way, hitting certain milestones. Like I said, removing the friction points or at least normalizing them, giving people feedback loops so they feel like their experience is being witnessed and validated, putting them in community situations where they get that too. So basically, all it is getting people from saying yes to the mission across the finish line, the mission accomplished, while removing all obstacles and kind of greasing the whole thing to make it as easy. And then for people to be like, woo, dopamine hit, dopamine hit. Yay, yay, yay. I'm winning. I'm growing. I'm being stretched, but comfortably. And that's essentially the methodology and all the techniques for doing that.

Yeah. I mean, would you, I mean, it sounds like just, I can imagine gamification's a big part of what you're doing, the journey, the psychology of everything. Fun. I mean, I feel like there's a little element of fun there, right? Versus, and you talked about this earlier, education back in the day, the way we've been trained, boring. You go there, somebody spews a bunch of info at us and it's just like, that's the way it's always been. And you're saying, no, no, no, no, it could be fun. It could be, you're taking action, you're taking steps to, is that, a big part of this as we're talking?

For sure. I mean, I think that I would put the word rewarding over the word fun, just because some people, industries like law or accounting or compliance or, you know, health, you know, mental and physical health are not in fun topics. What really matters is that I am wearing the shirt that says play here, but what really matters is that people feel like they're making progress and they're feeling rewarded for the progress that they're making. So, even if it's something serious or heavy or life-threatening, they feel that progress and that, you know, keeps them wanting to move forward. When people feel like they're winning, then they're going to want to keep winning. They're going to keep that flow of dopamine going. And I would say that, you know, gamification is a part of it, but a huge part of it is getting the structure right. It's like the structure of winning and transformation. Because if you add points and leaderboards on top of something that's not structured in a way that people can win or that drops them in the deep end of the pool or that confuses them or overcomplicates the pathway or whatever else it happens to be, the gamification's not gonna work. So, you know, it's really about getting the structure right and then the buy-in. So, people have that clear vision, they know what winning looks like, and then the gamification is in service of the thing that they actually want to achieve and that they have, you know, committed to and said yes to in their mind's eye.

I love it. I love it. It's, you're probably now at that point where you just like enter in, I think you as a consumer now, when you go in to see courses and communities, you're probably like instantly like, oh my God, there's a million things I wanna do to fix this thing.

Ah, 100%. They're so bad. And especially some of the major platforms like masterclass.com, they're working with these incredible celebrities who are masters of their trade, but it's kind of like these impossible goals. I was looking at some of them. One was to learn, it was this guy Chris something, and it was learn how to go into space for Chris something. And like, if you look at it, less than 700 people have been into space in all of, you know, human history. So what does winning look like? Is it just the transfer of knowledge from these amazing people? There was also gymnastic fundamentals from Simone Biles. Like, how do you know when you've won that? Like, what is fundamentals? You know, so they're not at all, you know, organized around, you know, what people are going to be able to learn and do specifically at the end of it. It's just like, let's go, you know, sit at the feet of the master and try to absorb whatever we can regardless of whether it's practical or not. It's like one, buying one of those like cookbooks from, I'm half Thai, so it's like buy a Thai cookbook and then you try to actually, where do I even get any of these ingredients? How do I do any of this? This is impossible. It's like one of those sorts of things, right?

Are you on this grand mission to wanna like just revolutionize? Like what's your big, like big why now that you've been doing this and having such big success?

Yeah, so I mean, I've long wanted to go into the school systems because I think it's counterproductive and becoming more counterproductive now that we've got AI in the works. However, it's such a bureaucratic, regulatory, compliance-driven industry that I think I would get, you know, a little frustrated and start banging my head against the wall, which is why I've stayed, you know, working with thought leaders and teaching them. But I've started to broaden more into this whole idea of customer experience, which is, you know, what is the journey through a business? And when we look at it, this is something that happens across the board. And as AI levels the playing field in terms of adding automation and allowing so many companies to compete that couldn't previously compete, I think that customer experience is gonna become more and more possible as the counterbalance to automation. And so I think in the past, people would invest heavily in acquisition, but they wouldn't invest as much in delivery as they would in acquisition. But now, you know, if the cost of acquisition becomes more expensive, which it has been across the board. Then retention and delivery and lifetime customer value is going to become more important. And if someone can replicate your business model in a day, you know, using AI, then what's going to drive any loyalty or make someone choose you over everybody else? It's actually two things. It is the ability to get people results with as little friction as possible consistently. And the second is the experience they have. Getting those results, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're not gonna wanna switch. They're gonna wanna stay loyal. They're gonna wanna tell their friends. And, and a world of, I mean, I keep hearing trust is the big word of AI. And so the world where they had that good experience, they trust, they're gonna stick with it.

100%. So this, I've been going more into the broader field of CX, you know, customer experience. And that includes, you know, a lot of that does include some form of education because a lot of times there's education in, learning how to use the product. If it starts in the onboarding process, it goes through, you know, the phases of user experience start in marketing, the discovery phase, and then onboarding after they sign up or they buy. And then, you know, uh, Yukai Chow, who's a behavioral designer that I learned from, calls the next stage scaffolding, which is learning the tools and the rules. And that can last 1 or 2 years. And then there's endgame, which is how do you keep veterans engaged for long periods of time? So, how do you create these journeys that can last years that keep people loyal and keep things interesting? Where you are, you know, changing the game for them versus just assuming since they've been loyal to you for a year or two, they're gonna continue to be loyal to you, you know, for an ongoing basis.

This is interesting. So, I mean, it's obviously they're parallel from course to customer experience. Are you finding yourself kind of saying evolving more, like you said, to the CX? You think where you wanna do a lot more of, are you getting more excited? Does that give you more energy or love both? Where are you at?

You know, I certainly have a heart for education, and there's so many obstacles and barriers to entry to reform that world. The business world is more adaptable and more open and a lot more fast-paced. So, for me, speed to implementation, the ability to make a tangible impact and see that impact quickly are big drivers. Certainly, if I have opportunities to work in the field of education, I would 100% will take those. And in the meantime, business is a world that I know super well. It's the world that I've been in for the last 15 years. I've got a lot of connections in this world. Yeah. And it's something where there's such measurable and immediate ROI for the work that I do, that if we can improve a customer journey, if we can even change 5% of people from, you know, dropping then all of a sudden, you know, a company could be making tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions more dollars. And so, this is really fun for me too. And I know that companies do change the world and make a massive impact in people's lives too. So, for me, I'm there to serve organizations that are making a difference in millions of people's lives. And so, whether that's in the school system, or whether it's in the private sector, what I care more about is companies that are, you know, doing good work and positively contributing to people in some way, shape, or form.

I love it. Well, I really hope there is an opportunity for you to get in the long educational sort of behemoth to help, because we're gonna need people like you and others as, especially with AI. And I, you know, fundamentally agree with that. And I think another thing you said I wanna reiterate, and I've heard talk through that as well, is it does seem like so many of us focus on that customer acquisition, cost to acquire, cost to acquire, what's it going to take? Let's get that customer in. And then so little is paid. And you probably have more data on that than I do as far as statistically, you know, the amount of time people focus on the getting that customer versus keeping, retaining, giving a good experience, educate. I mean, and it's so brilliant when you say it, it's just so obvious. You just want to like, you know, I want to like immediately get off this call and like do some things to say, oh my God, it's like we're missing some big opportunities here?

No, I don't have specific numbers on that, but it's the whole kind of prevention versus urgent diagnosis battle that's always raged in health where, you know, people are gonna focus on their immediate needs over the long-term, you know, health of their body or their organization. So acquisition, if you're not earning enough, it's the first place people are gonna go because it's obvious. Get a new customer. Boom. But honestly, for smaller investments, you can optimize the customers that you have, and that's going to support the longer term in addition to the short term of the organization. So they're both going to increase your revenue. So I've done, I mean, I've done $53 million with just 18,000 buyers. You know, I don't have cold traffic running right now, you know, and I'm still making more than a lot of people who do have those campaigns in place. And I've got, you know, a website for one of my courses has 3,385 success stories in it. When you can have that level of proof that you're the real deal and you deliver results, then that creates the viral loop. The viral loop is a lot cheaper than, you know, continuing to optimize ads so they work as the whole kind of field changes so rapidly. And I'm not saying to do it instead of, It really is a yes and, but I think that it's just as important, if not more important. Otherwise, you're, you're kind of pouring money and investment into a leaky bucket where you might get an acquisition, but are you gonna get a second sale, a third sale, the back end, right? So, you gotta patch all that up and get the back end functioning and like singing, and then every dollar you spend, you're actually getting like 5 times the ROI on it than what you're ROAS, your immediate return on ad spend, is.

Totally, totally. And it's brilliant. Again, not enough of us think through that. Okay, so for a listener out there and who doesn't have your amazing cheat sheet yet, and hopefully they'll get it at some point of, you know, the experience formula and others, what would be kind of some low-hanging, and we're going to go on both sides, customer experience and course. So those of us that have a course or thinking of doing a course, I know you're going to say we all should be doing something there, or most of us, because it helps. What is maybe the most common, and maybe it's just the mission that you talked about earlier, but is there a common easy tip for us we should think about? And on both sides, the course and then maybe customer experience.

Yeah. Well, I would say what I just shared in terms of having your whole course wrapped around a specific, tangible, concrete outcome makes a huge difference because trying to sell what I call a multipoint mission. You're going to do this and this and the Ginso knives. It's really hard because people like, what am I really getting? It's why memberships are so much harder to sell than a finite program with a beginning or end, whether it's a 4-week program or a 12-week program, right? Because it's like this ongoing thing where it's just like, oh my God, are those entrepreneurs guilty of trying to like throw too many things and ideas? Come on.

Yeah, happen. Yeah.

So, you know, a lot of people, you know, A lot of times, whatever you deliver, it's gonna deliver more than the thing that you choose to focus on in the mission. But if you can, you know, provide that focus, it's not just gonna sell better, but you're gonna get more people across the finish line. It's gonna perform better as well. And that becomes the rallying call for the program that people have memorized by the end, and they're kind of gunning for that really hard. Most people try to deliver everything they know. It's like all of their expertise inside of a single program, and it creates these behemoth programs that go beyond what people need. And right now, everybody wants the shortcut, everyone wants ease, everyone wants simplification. And this is also what allows you to differentiate from AI, because AI is going to give the indiscriminate, you know, content, knowledge, information dump, right? If what we're talking about is a curated, proven pathway to consistent results on demand, optimized for ease, optimized for simplicity, optimized for user experience and engagement. And so we all, that's never gonna go away. We're never going to lose the desire to have someone guide us to a result, you know, and customize that experience based on us. There have been mentors, apprentices, you know, studios in the Renaissance, you know, patrons, like these sorts of figures, you know, throughout all of history. And that's something that, yes, you can teach, you know, AI a lot of different things. Half of the stuff it gives you, you know, anytime it gives any case study, it's pretty much made up, even if you tell it to not make up any information.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, to have a sentient human who understands what are all the obstacles and pitfalls along the way, what are the little nudges and psychology kind of, you know, with psychological wisdom that you can give someone from experience. That's not gonna go away. And so when you're doing a course this way where it's really, you know, laser-focused to get someone a specific result in their life, and that result can be completing a project, it can be achieving a goal, it can be performance enhancement, it can be status enhancement, but finite, tangible, concrete. People will continue to pay for the fastest, easiest, most enjoyable path to that particular outcome. You know, the whole knowledge dump courses, you go on your own, you self-study, those are going to go away because those ones are being replaced by AI. But the experience products that I've been talking about for the last decade, actually going into our 10th annual launch of the Experience Product Masterclass, that won't go away because this is really about, you know, guiding someone to an outcome.

I love it. I love it. And I was actually going to ask you about that. You know, I know I hear stories all the time of people who've been through your programs, your masterclass, had an incredible experience. So if anybody wanted to work with you and go deeper and get more knowledge, I know you got a big program coming up. Tell me a little bit about that and how they can— I know we'll have some links on the bottom of this as well, but tell me a little bit about that program, what people get from that.

Yeah, so I created a 12-week program where your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to design, launch, and profit from an experience product. Using the 10 core experiences of the Experience Formula in 12 weeks or less. So really guiding you all the way through to choosing the idea, wrapping an offer around it, creating the minimum viable product version, launching it with the simplest possible marketing, getting validation it works, and then scaling the marketing from there. And we do have different tracks because I know Speakeasy Mastermind is more of an advanced business owner community, and we've got a lot of people who've sent their teams through it. I mean, Mary Morrissey sent her curriculum design team through, and they launched a new program called the, I think, 11 or 7 or Spiritual Secrets of Multiplying Your Money that outperformed any program they had ever launched in terms of sales and customer results from sending their staff through this course. And after that, she ended up bringing me in to kind of rework their Dream Builder program, which is the signature program they built the company around for years because that other course had performed so well. So even if you are kind of more advanced and you either want to go through it, you optimize and uplevel something that you already have that's not performing to the level you like to, or send a team member through, you can also do that as well.

I love it. I love it. That's great. And I, and like I said, I've heard nothing but positive. Everybody just raves about it. So hopefully if you're listening, you know, take action. This seems of interest to you, come check it out. Come see Marisa and take one of her courses. Let us know how it was. Well, Marisa, thank you so much for your time today. Anything else that I didn't ask you that we should have covered today?

Well, one of the things that, you know, I always like to end on is my favorite quote of all time from Zig Ziglar, which is, you can have anything you want in life if you'll help enough other people get what they want. And I really think that's what CX and course creation is about, is how do we optimize to deliver to people what they want, what they're paying for. And to do it in a way that is enjoyable, is rewarding. And if you can do that, you know, you don't really have to worry as much about the balance sheet because your business will at least maintain, if not grow.

I love it. Beautiful. Well said. And I have a vision and goal that I'd love to see for, I'd say a selfish goal is that, you know, to see you somewhere in the government Department of Education fixing things up so that when my 2 and 4-year-old kids eventually make their way through school, they'll have been touching one of the things and new systems that you've built out for the world out there. And that would be cool cuz I think we need it.

I love that. My master's is in communication art and design. I have not gotten a PhD, so unfortunately they reserve those roles for people who have letters after their names versus people who have decades of experience in the field actually doing this with people. So, even though I have an Ivy League education and a degree from the top art school in the world, those kinds of roles usually don't go to people like me because we're the kind of upstart troublemakers.

Yeah. We'll see if we can use our collective network and experiences to break through and maybe it will get somebody to get creative on that side, but that would be fun for us all. Well, thank you so much for taking the time out today. Again, I know how crazy your schedule is and appreciate you and look forward to consuming more of your amazing stuff.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Eric.

And that's a wrap from the Speakeasy Mastermind Podcast. If something sparked for you, don't keep it to yourself. Share it, review it. And pass it to the one person who needs to hear this right now. Want in on the real mastermind? Tap the link in the show notes to apply. Until next time, keep scaling, stay sharp, and don't be the smartest one in the room.