The IP Mistake Every New Business Makes

You should be clearing the name that you're going to use on your products, on your business, because it's much more expensive to rebrand. When it comes to trademarks, it's not just about whether the identical thing exists. It's about likelihood of confusion. You've got to have a technical solution to a technical problem for software patents to get through the patent office these days.

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Enjoy the show. Welcome to Inside the Speakeasy podcast. I'm so excited today to talk to my good friend all the way out from New Jersey, Rich Goldstein, and he is the godfather of IP. He's obtained over 2,500 patents. Oh my gosh, for all your friends, clients, people out there. And every time I talk to you, I'm just like, oh shit, I got to move my IP game up a little bit. I'm not doing the right things here. I got to probably make a little bit more of a priority than I'm thinking about. And we're going to get into some crazy amazing stuff in this episode. We're going to talk about some of the biggest mistakes that people are making when it comes to the world of IP and trademarking. In fact, many of you might be making that mistake right now, and it could cost you thousands and thousands of dollars, and you can make decisions that you cannot undo if you do the wrong thing. We're going to talk about how AI is not disrupting the world of IP. And in fact, if you think that's your answer, you're making a big mistake. And we're also going to discover a hidden secret Rich has and how he's able to actually throw six-figure fun parties to get new clients in business. And he's absolutely crushing it. Let's talk about why. Let's get into it. Welcome, Rich.

Oh, thanks so much, Eric. I appreciate that intro. And, um, yeah, okay. So the why, I think a lot of it is mindset. Well, it's a combination of things. So mindset is one. Another thing is for any bootstrapped entrepreneur, there are so many things to put your attention on and so many things to spend your money on. So IP often gets sidelined because of that, because there's like really a lot of things that you need to do. And it's also because people misunderstand IP, they have misconceptions about it. And so they end up pushing it aside and maybe not dealing with it. And sometimes thinking that like, if I don't deal with it, then it can't hurt me. Like if I don't, if I just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist, I'll be okay.

Or I'll deal with it when it becomes a problem is probably the other way of looking at it. Like it's not a priority when it becomes, or somebody sends me some kind of letter or something, then I'll deal with it. Or. Let's start from the beginning. I mean, well, I mean, so if you have all levels of entrepreneurs, I'm starting off my company, boom, what do I do? And then as I kind of go through that, I'll ask sort of a few questions rolled into one. IP is a big, I'm sure it's a blanket coverage of a lot of things. So let's talk from different levels, startup. What is my IP? What should I be doing and when?

Yeah. So the first thing, the thing that people skip is IP strategy is to actually have those thoughts and have that conversation with someone that knows to say, well, Really, what should I be focusing on with IP? Because for different businesses, there are different strategies and different things that you should do. So probably the most universal thing is trademarks. And if you have a brand of any kind that's public-facing, then you should be filing a trademark application. You should be clearing the name that you're going to use on your products, on your business, because it's much more expensive to rebrand. Than it is to start out the right way and make sure you have a name that is well carved out, that you could use this name on your product or service, and then file a trademark. And trademarks are like among the least expensive aspects of IP. So it's truly a no-brainer to do that in the beginning.

So just to cut you off there, I mean, it's funny because I did this recently with a company, a derm click that I'm a part of, and it's just a new habit. Like you sit there and you spend all this time like, hey, let me go play in GoDaddy and just look up URLs to find the name. And then you're just like, and you think you have a name, you get excited, then you're going to social and like, okay, does anybody have the handle? And I'm like, no, no, no. And what I learned the hard way, same thing you're saying, just, I have my third window up, which is the, I can't remember the trademark search, but to me that was just as important. That was like step one. You got to have all windows up. Who else has this name?

Right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And there's a little bit of a difference there between like getting the handles and getting the trademark in that. So first of all, if the exact name exists as far as a domain name, obviously you can't get that, right? And, you know, but if there's like a little variation, like, you know, people get creative and they say instead of Rich Goldstein, they say The Rich Goldstein, and they use that as their Instagram handle, let's say. But when it comes to trademarks, it's not just about whether the identical thing exists, it's about likelihood of confusion. So it could even be names that rhyme with your business name that could be confusing. On the other hand, you could have the same name with two different companies having trademarks, but they're in very different industries because again, it's all based on likelihood of confusion. So, you know, we've got General Electric and we've got General Motors, right? They were originally in very different fields, and so they could coexist. But a lot of times you might have a name that you want to use and the handles are taken up, like maybe you're going to sell skincare products and you notice like, oh, that name's taken already on socials, but it might still be possible to use that as a trademark for, you know, a different field. If someone else has it in use for, you know, clothing, you might be able to get that same name for skincare products. And so like there are different considerations, but yeah, in the very beginning, it's important to sort that out.

But I think it's important distinction there too. So I'm going to— what I like about what you said is you might have a name that we really like and you're like, oh, that somebody else has that name. And you're like, you still could get it, different industry. Now what about somebody having you a name in the industry, but they haven't trademarked it yet? What are the rules behind that? And can you say, well, I really liked the name. They slept on the wheel and they didn't trademark it.

Yeah, there's two aspects. So first of all, there's federal registration and then there's common law rights. And so, you know, essentially, as far as the Patent and Trademark Office is concerned, when they're searching your application to see if that mark exists, they're looking at other registrations. So you can possibly get your mark registered even though this other person exists and that have just been using it. But they have common law rights by using it in the industry. If the extent to which they could show that people would be confused by you entering that same industry with this name, they could bring a trademark case against you. So you could technically get the trademark through the Patent and Trademark Office, but you might not be able to use that mark without conflict. So, yeah, there are things to consider. And that's why, again, a lot of times this stuff gets sidelined, but it's really important to look at because as time goes on, things get more and more expensive. Kind of as an example of that. It's like if you were to file your trademark application, let's say now, it's maybe a $3,000 process. But if someone else, if you wait and you don't file it now and you want to file it later on, but someone else has filed in your same industry with a similar trademark, now it could be a $50,000 process because you have to get their mark cancelled before you can get yours granted.

So that goes back to the common rights. So you're saying, back to the other thing you said, somebody may say, well, great, what's the rush in doing that if I've already been using it? No big deal. I'm gonna— I can always go after them later. And you're saying you can, but it's going to cost you way more.

Yeah, exactly. Like, so you started using it and you were developing common law rights. So let's say, you know, 4 years goes by and someone files their application, and then another 6 months go by, you file yours. Well, like they're ahead of you at the trademark office, but you can show that, well, you've now been using it for 4 and a half years and that you've got superior rights and you could prevent them from registering theirs, but it's a much more expensive process now. Got it. Got it.

Just random thought I had in my head, you know, I shouldn't assume or not assume, but the whole thing that just happened recently with Claude Bot, who had to, you know, they had a name, but it wasn't spelled. So walk through that process. Why? And I know this is, this will probably come out 6 weeks or so from now from this conversation. So by then it'll be a little bit of old news, but you know, I guess they're molten now. Is it just because it was too close in theory and confusion in the marketplace of the pronunciation of Claude spelled differently than Claude? Is that the idea?

Yeah, I think the underlying principle there is that trademarks go by the sound of it. So it's like you filed a trademark application for Coca-Cola spelled with a K instead of a C. It's not going to work because it's how the trademark sounds.

That person did not talk to the Godfather before they went and blew up and it got viral. That was a— I mean, you probably saw that one coming a mile away.

Yeah. Well, I mean, like, again, people have misconceptions about IP and they think there's certain things they can get away with. Like, oh wait, but when they challenge us on this, we're just going to say this, or we're going to say like, no, no, no, it's with a K. It's not a C. But they're just wrong. And a lot of times when people think they have the answer, that's the most deadly thing because they think they have the answer. So they're not looking for the answer. They think they already know.

They think they know we'll deal with it later and it goes on to the next thing, right? We just get it and they just, you know, okay. So I know that's sort of the early on trademark, you know, we all kind of understand the concept. I think the message clearly is do not delay on that at all. Is there anything else in the trademarking side or should we now still get out and go down maybe a little bit more of the IP path and kind of what other things should we be doing?

Yeah, no, I'd say let's talk more about IP. And again, the reason we got into trademarks is I was saying in the beginning, you want to have an IP strategy. You want to figure out what IP is going to apply for your business. What's going to give you the most leverage and take those steps at an early stage and then also have plans for what's going to develop over time as you gain traction, as you build your business. What other IP steps can you take? So now, again, back to the beginning, trademarks are pretty universal, should be part of any startup's IP strategy. Now patents are different because it really depends on the type of business that you have. If it's a service-based business, then it's not likely to be something that warrants patents. If it's a product business. Then if you have some improved products, you have a product that functions better than other things like it, then it can be what's called a utility patent. If you've got a product that is, you know, essentially the same function as others, but it has a unique look, then you could apply for a design patent to protect that unique look. So it's very much about looking at kind of what's the secret sauce. Of your business? What's the thing that is going to set you apart? What's the thing that people are going to want to copy about your business as it gets to be successful? Because like the root of your success was X. And so then from there we want to figure out, well, what's the best way we can protect that? And that could be with patents if it's a product-based business. And then just going a little further with that too, if it's software, if like you're developing a SaaS company, then software can be protected with a patent too. But it's difficult. And I don't know how important it is for us to go into detail about that aspect in terms of patenting software, but I'll just say a few things because a lot of people are doing that these days. A lot of people are vibe coding and they're saying like, I create a software app, like, you know, can I patent this? And so here's just a few guidelines. First of all, in order for software to be patentable, there needs to be a technical solution to a technical problem. A lot of times people will say, well, I created an app that it's like a dating app except it searches by location and then finds people that have the same birthday as you or whatever. You can't patent that. That's an abstract idea. Got it. If though you have some technical solution for maybe gaining that information and arriving at the result, then it's possible to protect it. Problem is you vibe code something, you didn't create the technical solution. The AI created the technical solution. So it's not going to be patentable.

So there's nothing that you could vibe code that's patentable, more or less, or is this pretty hard?

Well, I mean, it depends. Sometimes people vibe code and they get really deep into it and they actually set up certain frameworks about how it's going to operate, like in terms of that you create a system where it takes in certain information, it stores that in a database, and then like, in other words, sometimes they get more into advising how the software is going to be created. Those are the more likely candidates for patent protection. So a lot of people are wasting a lot of money on software patents these days. By applying for something that's just never going to go through the patent office. But that's the thing to understand. If there's any one thing I could say for the people in this community that are listening, and that, that is that you've got to have a technical solution to a technical problem for software patents to get through the patent office these days.

Got it. Okay. So let's keep, I want to keep talking about that. And then I want to talk about maybe other sort of things to protect or we can protect in the IP strategy. I love sort sort of thinking of the overall umbrella of IP strategy. So you get past the trademarking, you're sitting down, you're thinking, all right, well, what am I doing? Is my company a SaaS? Is it just content? Is it, you know, in which case, let's get into that conversation in a minute. Or is it product, like you said, you know, actual physical product? So seems like the technical side, the SaaS, you kind of covered a little bit. Let's maybe dig down the physical product stuff. What sort of should I be looking for? It's patentable or it's not down that path.

Yeah, so when it comes to a physical product, if you feel like it's an improved product, like in other words, it functions better than other things that have existed out there, it's kind of like you picture, you know, someone in the garage kind of trying to make a better soap dispenser or whatever. Like that's typically a candidate for a utility patent. The important thing, like the most important thing to figure out is what are the closest things to it? What are the closest things that were patented before to what you have in mind? Because that's what it's going to be judged against if you were to apply for a patent. So like, you know, say you invent this new soap dispenser and it has kind of some type of mechanism with a, you know, with a spring and a catch, and we'd want to do research to see if people have invented that, like the secret sauce, the thing that makes it work well. There are patents going back to the beginning of the patent system on just about everything you could think of. And, you know, a lot of times you think, I've never seen anything like this on the market. But when we do research, we'll find things that are closer than you imagine. Then the important inquiry is this. Well, okay, what's the difference between mine and what's been created? Because that's going to give you a sense of what's protectable. So you figure out like, okay, I could protect this difference, the fact that it has this mechanism. The next question is, does that make it marketable? Like, if I was able to protect that mechanism, is that going to be the reason why my product is a runaway success? Is that going to be the thing that when competitors see how well I'm doing and they look at my patent, they say, oh, Well, in order to cut into his market, we need to copy that feature. But you know what? We can't copy that feature because of the patent. Then you've got something that you should be patenting. So it's like— Got it. Thinking of a Venn diagram, like you think about what's protectable and you think about what's marketable. And if those two overlap, if you're able to protect the thing that's going to make your product marketable, That's a patent you should go for.

And that hopefully becomes a big part of the IP strategy because now you're, you're building that thing that hopefully somebody may say, well, shit, we just got to go buy these guys because they're chipping away at our market share and it's going to make us better with this new thing, this new device mechanism.

Exactly, exactly. And so just bigger picture on that then is like you'd mentioned content. Content gets protected with copyright. So it could be the graphic design of your web page or kind of the content of your videos, like that's protectable with copyright. But the thing that people misunderstand about copyright is that it protects expression, not ideas. So, you know, you teach a whole bunch of things on your video that's not protected by copyright. It's the way in which you talked about it. It's the actual video file to prevent people from just duplicating that and clipping it and using it. Like, that's what's protected by copyright, not someone else doing their own video to teach the things that you talked about.

What about the ideas of, we're launching a new thing, I love what this competitor over here is doing, let's go model them and use as much of their stuff. We'll put our things on it. We'll tweak a couple words. Like, where's the danger zone in there if you're trying to launch something and you just really want to model somebody else? Right.

Well, here's the thing. So first of all, like, there may be like a moral issue about copying someone's stuff. Yep. But there is no legal issue unless there is like a defined type of IP protection on it. So like there is no, you know, what they call common law tort of copying, right? You see someone's product and you copy it unless they've got protection for it. Like there is no like just like kind of like moral prohibition that becomes a legal prohibition on copying.

Yeah.

When you got to, we're going to copy someone's stuff, you have to look out for a few things. Of course, you don't want to duplicate anything that's copyright protectable, which often is like things like images, like the very kind of direct content portions of it. You also don't want to infringe any patents. So if there's any patents in question, then you need to review to see if it's possible to make anything similar to it without infringing the patents. But then the other thing to consider, that thing that came to my mind when you mentioned like, I see someone's stuff and I'm thinking, oh, we'll do it kind of similar, et cetera, is there is a possibility of trademark violation. And that comes by virtue of this. Remember, trademarks are about likelihood of confusion. And it's more than just the name of the product. It could be the, well, the logo, the slogan. It can be things that people commonly associate with a particular source of a product or service. So it's like if someone heard, you know, one specific, like one particular thing that you'd copied from them and it immediately has them think, oh, that must be your competitor. That would be a trademark violation. Let's get ready to rumble, Michael Buffer. Yeah. That's more of a trademark issue. People are like, he patented that. No, no, you didn't patent that. You can't patent that. But it's like somebody hears that, someone saying that, like, let's get ready to rumble, you know, they might think like, oh, that's Michael Buffer. You know, that Michael Buffer was the announcement at that fight, was the announcer.

And so like you're saying you could, so you're saying somebody couldn't, let's say, have a website that when you land there, it says, let's get ready to rumble. And it sounds like Buffer. And I use my, you're saying that would be trademarked, that you get in trouble for.

Or you wouldn't potentially, like, if it was something that you'd expect him to be at, like something related to, say, yeah, a fight or a match. Yes. But the point is, like, you know, if you make your website that really reminds people of the Amazon website, you know, and you're, you know, Amalu.com or something, then like those circumstances could have people think like, oh, this is an offshoot of Amazon. So you want to avoid that. I think that's the biggest fall of what you're describing. Got it.

So, so if you're going to be in a similar industry, don't try to— you don't want to copy exact look, feel, all the words.

You don't want to trick people into thinking that they're dealing with them when they're actually dealing with you, because that's some type of trademark unfair competition type. Yeah.

And it's just interesting because, you know, you hear all sides, you hear people in our world and industries, all that. Like, I'm so frustrated that these people, they took my funnel. And they took my webinar and they almost copied verbatim what I did. You know, I hear that a lot. And like, what can they do? Do they have a claim? Can they really even do much with that?

Yeah, I mean, there's not that much. Like when it comes to content, like, you know, coaches that have their own frameworks that they teach and like, it's not very protectable through conventional IP and like the biggest thing that they should do is have contract terms that limit the potential use. So it's like if you were, let's say you developed a yoga methodology and you run a teacher training to teach teachers about this yoga style and all of your secrets. Well, anyone who's in that program, you want to have them agreeing contractually to what they can do with that information. That tends to be the best way to protect. Like teachings of that type because copyright doesn't protect ideas.

Yeah.

And then the other thing is just branding. You know, it's like, you know, you create like the Webinar While You Sleep method.

Okay.

Brand that. And then other people that are also creating their how to build a webinar programs, they can't use that phrase. Okay.

So that was really helpful because I want to get into that is what can we do for people that are especially on the information side? You just got a great idea. So it's sort of methodology you're saying you can patent of what you're doing. That's— so I was going to say, what strategies you suggest to help us build more IP?

Right. Yeah. Methodology cannot patent is the point.

Cannot patent. Okay.

And so, yes, trademarks is one. And so if we're circling back to trademarks, again, it's for the name of the product. It could also, though, be for the logo. It could be for slogans that you use. It could also be for key terminology. You know, I'm trying to think of like maybe if there's a Tony Robbins phrase that comes to mind. I haven't done a lot of Tony Robbins work, but like, you know, let's say he had a thing that he said always. It was like, Max, Max.

Okay, hold on. I have an example. So our good friend, he's a good buddy. He's in the Scottsdale chapter of Speakeasy Mastermind, Michael Bernoff.

Oh, he has a bunch. Actually, I think I've given those shirts to my wife and she wears them all the time. There's like average sucks.

Average sucks, right? So can you do anything with that?

And the decision maker, that one I don't remember, but okay.

I can see that.

But yeah, average sucks. And like, so actually my wife likes that shirt and yeah. So like you have a phrase like that, you can protect it.

So Bernoff could be protecting that. And we'll talk to him after the show that if he's not working with the legend in IP, he should be.

He should be. I've known him for enough years. Like absolutely he should be. But yeah. So if he hasn't done so already, yes. Like he could trademark average sucks because when people see that, they think of Michael Bernoff.

So, he has to do— and it's not like— I mean, this is an important conversation for— I'm just listening. I'm thinking through this and saying, "Okay. What's the definitive line there? Like, oh, I get to print a t-shirt up and say, 'Average sucks,' and now I get to trademark that name?" So, at what point does somebody like Vernoff get the rights to win on a trademarking of that?

Yeah. First of all, it's got to be more than just like an ornamental thing on a t-shirt like, "Have a nice day," right? It's like one of his key teachings and maybe he's got a program named that too. But when something is trademarkable is like when it's used as a trademark, it's being used to, you know, like the common perception that it creates with consumers is that, okay, that's pointing to a specific brand. So it's kind of like you put an alligator on your shirt, like that seems ornamental. That's not trademarkable. Put it on the pocket and it's like, oh, that's supposed to be a brand name. That's supposed to designate that it's a certain source of that product, a certain source of clothing. And so it's, the context is very important, but the point is that's one of the ways in which information product people can protect themselves is by using certain phrases as a trademark, like using it properly, like making sure that you don't water it down and have it just seem like, like a casual thing and then protecting it by filing a registered trademark application.

So one more example, because I think I'm looking for applicable cases from people that we all know out there is, and you kind of alluded to it, an actual product name. And I can give you an example of somebody that actually sent us a cease and desist. When I say us, and maybe you'll tell me that they had no case here in a second, but for Brian Tracy, a client that I work with that people know, we had a program for a while called the One Day MBA. And then I think somebody else said, well, we've been using this name MBA in a Day or something similar. It wasn't exactly the wording. And they had a, I guess, a trademark on the brand or their product name.

Right.

So in that example, so, so are you, they were able to trademark a name of a product and that, is that something we can do?

Yes. You know, it's possible to protect. There are some factors in figuring out there, like whether it was a problem or not, but yeah, I mean, you could trademark One Day MBA if, I mean, for one, it's got to be Here's the thing, it can't be descriptive. Like if you're selling red licorice, you can't trademark the term red licorice because that's descriptive. And so like, you know, if you called it kind of liquid licorice.

Right. Volcano candy or volcano on a stick or something, whatever you—

Right. It's not, it's misdescriptive. That's not what it is. A one-day MBA. It's not really an MBA. It's not really a master's of business administration. And perhaps it doesn't really take one day. So then it's, you know, it's like one day MBA for a program in business literacy. I don't know. It may be possible to trademark that subject to the descriptiveness issue. And then you can prevent people from using anything that's confusingly similar. So it's one day MBA and you've got MBA in one day. That seems confusingly similar. Yeah. Okay. On the other side of it is like, well, what if there are a bunch of like things like One Day MBA? Then there may be room for you to coexist.

Got it.

It's not that the MBA and one day in the same phrase is so distinctive for one company because there's a bunch of different variations of it. So then that means that protection is more narrowly construed and there may be room for, for Brian's program as well.

Got it. And then to reverse the conversation for, again, people listening, it's I guess that would be part of your IP strategy, right? If you're in the information game, that is a way you can start, obviously outside the trademarking and some other things. And we use Burn Off as an example. It could be that, right? Taking one of your programs.

It's a very tall example.

But that would be a strategy then, right, Rich, that you would maybe help, like, kind of tough. You're talking to people saying, well, yeah, why don't we take one of your products? Let's, you know, it can't be descriptive, but we can create an IP around a product that you're teaching, right? Or a course.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's the thing, is to find out the landscape and to figure out, like, well, what do other people do in this field? You know, maybe you're selling carpets and it turns out that all the other carpet manufacturers are copyright protecting their patterns on their carpets or on their rugs. Then maybe that's a good thing to do. Sometimes it's really about figuring out, like, in that industry, what's the common way that people protect things.

Okay.

It's kind of like in the refrigerator water filter field, what happens is manufacturers patent their specific type of coupling for attaching the filter. So that's how they go after all the other companies that make duplicate water filters is because they have to use that coupling that's been patented. So it's like, you talk to someone who's been there and you find out some of what works in your industry to gain IP protection. Love it. All right.

The last category, then I'll get off this because again, I'm just thinking of all the— there's probably more physical ingredients, people making physical stuff that includes ingredients like supplements or a formulation of some kind.

Here's the thing. A formulation is protectable by patent. Patent. It's directly one of the categories of what's protectable. All patents, though, have to be different to a certain degree, which means, like, it has to be more than just unique. Like, no one has ever had this exact thing. It has to be unique in what's called a non-obvious way. So what that means is it's a little bit— it's got to be outside of the range of expectations to an extent. What happens with supplements and formulations is that typically when people come up with one, they're using known ingredients for their known properties, and maybe they're just changing the amounts a little bit.

That's what I was going to ask.

Yeah, the patent, something unusual.

I was talking over the ridge. So in that case, that's the one I was thinking I was talking to you. So if they tweak the amount, you're saying that's not patentable?

That's not going to be patentable.

Yeah. Okay.

If you do something unexpected, you've got a weight loss composition and you add blueberry extract Not for flavor, but because you found out that blueberry extract actually helps with weight loss. That could be the grounds for something being patented.

Isn't that simple to say, "Well, I'm going to take 5 ingredients that I already know work for weight loss. I'm just going to add some other random ingredient that it's not going to— maybe it helps me, it doesn't. I could certainly create an argument that it might, and I'm just adding a 6th ingredient to the 5 and I'm adding a small dose of it." Is it now patentable formula?

Possibly, but that's kind of the direction of what, what could make it patentable is adding something that's just not expected, not commonly used there. Remember though, if you are able to patent that, you're just preventing people from using that random ingredient in there. And then it's like, you know, people that want to gain traction based upon your product, they see like we've got to include these 6 ingredients including that weird, you know, Brazilian blueberry extract that they found in some— then they say, okay, we'll just leave that out. It doesn't really It's random anyway. Got it. So that's one of the things is that if you try to make something different enough to be patentable, you have to remember that then you're just getting a patent on that random thing that you added to make it patentable. And then is that really worth it? Yep.

Got it. Okay. And then, what else? Let's talk just overall. Well, actually, let me get on another topic, and I'm not sure this is the area that you're covering or not. Um, licensing. Is that part of the overall IP?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, licensing is when you give someone, you know, basically the bottom line of a licensing agreement is someone is paying you to be able to do something. So someone is manufacturing your invention and paying you a royalty. That's what a typical licensing agreement is. And the key to a licensing agreement is leverage. The reason why they're willing to pay you is because you've got leverage. Like, they can't do it without you. And that typical reason is because you've got the rights to it, because you've got a patent, for example. Got it. The patent gives you the leverage to make the licensing agreement because they can't make this product without you.

Got it. Okay. So, you know, that's a great coverage of everything. So thanks. That was really helpful and informative. What do you see as the, you know, and I guess it's all over the board for you, but maybe going back and maybe it's the trademark, I don't know, what is probably the number one mistake you think you're finding your clients, people that come to you, "Oh my God, I screwed up," or "I wish I had done this earlier." What is the number one mistake?

Okay. Well, by far the number one mistake is this, is that people don't know that if you put a product out in public, like you have a website that explains your product, you have the product on sale, then 1 year after that date, it's too late to apply for a patent. It's absolutely too late. And wow, nobody knows that. You didn't know that. I can tell from your reaction. And so this is like the most common mistake I have. People— trademark you could pick up later, but not the patent you can pick up later, subject to maybe if someone else jumped in before you. But with patents, if you know— and this is what happens all the time, people contact me and they say, oh yeah, I've got a business, it's going well. I'm selling XYZ products, you know, we've hit $10 million in sales and I'm thinking like we need to protect this product. Like, okay, well, the product that you're telling me about, how long have you been selling it? And they say, oh, you know, 2 and a half years and it's going well. So like, you know, money is no object. Let's patent it. And I just have to tell them, I'm sorry, but it's too late. Yeah, it was more than a year. And the answer is always the same. It's like, well, how could I have possibly known that? Yeah, well, I mean, I guess unless you were listening to the Speakeasy Mastermind podcast, you wouldn't have known that. Wouldn't have known that. And so like, that is the number one mistake. And literally over and over again, I would say probably half a dozen times a month, I talked to someone that I have to let down like that, someone who could be a great client. They've got the money, their business is going well. But it's just too late. And they didn't know. So number one mistake is to not look into patenting before you launch. Because here's the thing, in the US, there's still technically a 1-year grace period, but in much of the world, there is no grace period.

Oh, wow.

So if you haven't applied for a patent by the time that you publicly release it, by the time you publicly disclose it, it's just too late.

That seems like a brutal law because I'm sitting there thinking, you know, the whole MVP strategy of just, hey, launch, iterate, et cetera, et cetera, would say get to market first before, I mean, I'm spending all this money for legal fees to patent and maybe it's not that much, but at least to apply. And I guess that's a secondary question. I mean, is it a lot just to get the ball rolling so that you are protected?

Yeah, it is. And, but, and it is brutal. I mean, do you want to know why? Do you want me to give you the reasoning behind it?

Yeah.

So really the whole point of the patent system is to promote progress in science and the useful arts. That's right from the Constitution, Article 1, Section 8. And so the mandate was create laws for protection of IP, essentially so that people will explain their inventions so that other people can build upon it. So the way patents work, it's like rather than keep your invention a secret and not tell anyone about it and maybe go to your grave without telling anyone about it, you fully explain what it is. In return, the government gives you protection for a limited time. And at the end of that, all of your explanation is useful to others because it's now in the public domain, right? Public knowledge. It's in the public domain. Anyone can make use or sell the product that's in an expired patent. And so, so here's the thing then. If you've already put it out there in public, then why should we protect you? Like you've, it's already in the public domain. So it's like you can't take it out of the public domain by filing a patent. That's why most of the world, you know, doesn't even have a grace period. They're like, you put it out there, you know, we're not giving you a patent.

Wow.

US, we have, we give them a year grace period, but that's kind of us in this example. But yeah, that, wow.

Okay. Is there a, I mean, that seems like a far number one. Is there a kind of a mid-distant number two error you're seeing, or is that pretty much the big one?

Yeah, I would say that's the big one. And then beyond that, it's, I guess the second biggest mistake they make is like, so there's this thing called a provisional patent application that most people have heard of. It's basically a stepping stone towards getting a full patent. You file the provisional and then you have a year to follow up with the full application. And that provisional doesn't get reviewed. When you file it. So you file it, you get a receipt that says it was filed. And so as a result, a lot of people file a provisional. Why? They put together a quick description and they file it with the patent office. They say, oh, I'm provisional patent pending. I'm good. The big mistake they make though, is that they're not good because the quality of the priority you get from that application is only as good as it was well-written. And so like, I would say in terms of people that actually engage with the patent process, remember the people before, they would just shut out because they waited too long. In terms of those people, that's the biggest mistake they make is by just filing something and not realizing that the quality matters because they know that this is not going to be reviewed. But it will matter if you ever need to rely on it. Got it. Got it.

Okay.

Wow.

This is really helpful. I've taken a lot of—

I didn't know I could be that helpful. Yeah, no, this is great. I mean, I know what I'm talking about.

I know that. I'm going to turn to a fun topic as we sort of get to wind things up here. And thank you so much for your time here. You know, we think lawyers as, you know, the lawyer, the stuffy lawyer behind the desk. And if you get to know Rich, he's not that. And in fact, you're known for putting on these legendary parties and you're such a great networker. You're out all the time. Tell us about these legendary parties, like what the Rich Goldstein party. What's that all about?

Yeah, no, absolutely. I do surprise people. Like, you know, it happens all the time that people are like, he's actually a cool guy. Yeah, no, he's actually a cool guy. And but yes, so I surprise people on that level all the time when I'm out at events and hanging out. They're like, you're not what I expected.

Yeah.

But as far as the parties go, so kind of over time I developed this relationship with MGM. To throw these huge parties at what they called the Barbra Streisand Suite. It was like a suite that they built for Barbra Streisand when she was in residency at the MGM back when it was first built. And this is not a suite that you can just rent. You can't just go on a website and get it. It's like over time through the relationship, they've allowed me to rent and throw parties there and So I've thrown these epic parties there during other events, during like other Amazon events and things like that. And yeah, they're just legendary because I'll have like 8 giant— when I say giant, I mean like giant sushi boats from Marimoto. I mean, they're like $1,000 apiece, right? They're big boats. I have like somewhere between 20 and 30 bottles of like Classe Azul and 1942 in the tequila tasting bar upstairs in the suite. I've got 3 other bars in the suite. We got like DJ that you see him on billboards if you're going to drive down Las Vegas Strip, like, and he performs at our events every time we have it. And yeah, I've done this for about 6 years now, and I've probably had— I lost count, but maybe between like 12 and 15 different times I've thrown these parties. And yeah, so they are legendary. It's just like such a fun and upscale experience. You go to MGM Skyloft and it's like the walls are like, you know, are soft. Like, yeah, go down the hallways and they're like, it's like you're in an insane asylum. Like you could bounce off the walls. But yeah, it's just like a really upscale and insider experience. Like it just feels like you've been invited to like the coolest party in Las Vegas. Like who gets to go to like a suite like this? And so it's just lots of fun.

And so, I mean, the question here, the learn, let's move. We're still sharing here. I mean, is there an ROI for you? I mean, other than having fun, which is great. I mean, does it actually, has it helped you? As we know, networking, building networks is important. It's, you get your friends, people know, like, and trust you and they want to do business.

Has that helped? Well, it's really strange how it works with that in that you have people that really primarily know me as throwing the best parties. That will then introduce me to someone as like, oh, this is Rich Goldstein. He's like the top IP attorney in the country. I don't know how that translated from they know me as throwing, from throwing great parties to knowing that I'm a great IP attorney. You know, maybe that's, I don't know where that's from, but it kind of works like that.

It's kind of crazy how it's giving me credibility for my profession, but I guess I just, you know, take that part for granted because it's just, well, I think let's, I mean, if we dissect that for a minute, and I think there's a story more than just the fun part of the party, I think it's just I mean, we talk about communities, speakeasies, and everything else. And I think what you're saying is there's a million IP attorneys out there and you meet one and you probably forget about them 2 months later, you know, who that person was that you met. And then there's Rich and Rich is the guy who is awesome. I got to know him. He's a fun guy. And like, they of course want to try to, you sort of invoke the law of reciprocity by throwing something. And they want to turn around and figure and hook you up and they probably want an invite back to your party again. And that's going to give them a good invite. So I mean, indirectly it works out. I mean, I'm hoping one of these guys, I get one. I mean, if you guys get to know Rich in the community, you never know. You might get that invite.

So yeah, exactly, exactly.

And one more question before we let you get out of here, and I totally forgot about this, and it's the elephant in the room these days with everybody. How are you combating, you know, the, those that just say, I don't need to talk to Rich, I'll just get on AI and play around? What are they missing and what's the risk they're playing for them?

I mean, I would say like their chances of success are close to zero because, you know, there's a bunch of reasons for that, that First of all, the thing that's patentable is what's unexpected, right? But when AI fills in the blanks, it does it in the expected way. I mean, AI is probabilistic. It's about like, what have we seen the most examples of when you put A and B together is like, oh, okay, C. And then that's how we connect the dots. So if you're going to connect the dots in the way that AI suggests, you are not going to be non-obvious. You're going to be obvious as hell and not patentable. And I see people that they've had said, well, AI did analysis and said that these things are patentable. AI is just plain wrong. Got it.

Well, that's good to know. I could see that people are trying to be efficient and they're doing that and they could go down the wrong path and make some big mistakes. And probably like anything else, I assume AI with you is a lot more dangerous because you probably know how to ask the right questions and push it the right way to get deeper. But if you don't know what questions to ask, you're going to go down the wrong path and be screwed. And that's going to be your new biggest mistake everybody's making when I ask this question to you next year, probably.

Yeah, no, it's true. And again, like, I've had people contact me to try to fix it afterwards. Like, they've filed a patent application and they get rejected, and they're like, you know, can you respond to this rejection? And it's like, the problem is it was pointed in the wrong direction from the beginning, so we can't unring that bell. And yeah, so that's what I really get to see. It's just, I've seen nothing good in the patent world come from AI. Got it.

Cool. So, so Rich, thanks for that. Any questions I didn't ask that you wish I did, or you might want to think like I should talk about this or that?

No, not that I could think of. I mean, I think, you know, here's the thing, and we talked about this a little bit before, is like there's a bit of a mindset shift when it comes to doing AI. IP correctly, and that is to shift from thinking transactionally about, well, okay, I'm gonna protect this feature, maybe stop some ripoffs, to how do I create business value? It's like really the biggest return on IP investment comes at exit. It's like you can get a 100x return on IP investment when you get to exit. Of course, not all businesses get to exit, but those that are building with the end in mind They'll build in IP strategy and they'll execute along the way to build that $100 million business.

I'm glad you brought that up because I totally forgot to ask that obvious question. Thank you. You're right. Just the overall value of the company is just going up exponentially with proper IP strategy and proper patents and everything else we talked about. And again, without that, you're just missing out on huge valuation increases.

Yep.

Yep.

That's a major message that I carry. And when I speak at events, that's usually The angle is to look at how much IP can increase your valuation.

I love it. I love it.

Well, cool.

Well, on that great note, thank you so much for your time today and look forward to hanging out with you again soon at the next event we see each other at.

Absolutely, Eric. Yeah, thanks so much.

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