Why AI Can’t Replace Human Trust in Business

Initially, my first launch was very much geared towards freelance copywriters, training people how to basically start a freelancing side hustle. And that is still a big part of what I do. My flagship program teaches that. It teaches people the skills they need to essentially get paid to write, but more than write, get paid to do marketing for clients. Because, you know, you've been around as long as I have, everyone's always looking for someone to help them with their marketing. And no matter how advanced AI gets, Marketing is always still gonna be incredibly important and people are gonna need to be able to have their hand on the steering wheel for that.

Welcome to the Speakeasy Podcast, where the real conversations happen behind closed doors with the boldest entrepreneurs, creators, and growth minds in the game. No fluff, no filters, just the raw strategies, personal stories, and mental models that move the needle. I'm Eric Berman. Now let's get into it. In today's Inside the Speakeasy Mastermind Podcast, I am so honored and excited to have somebody who I've been friends with for, gosh, probably over 10+ years now. And somebody's taught me so much, and she is absolutely the go-to person when I think about branding and especially copywriting. She's my first call, and fortunately she still takes my calls because she's blown up and been so amazing. Alex Cattoni, one of the biggest gurus when it comes to copywriting and branding, and we're gonna get into some critical things of what's going on in the world of AI and copy. And she's gonna throw some big ideas, earth-changing ideas on what you should be doing when it comes to AI and copy and what you should not be doing. You're not gonna wanna miss those. Plus, you're gonna hear about this incredible, her incredible journey going from an intern over at Mindvalley all the way into running a mega 7-figure business and just crushing all things online. Welcome, Alex Katoni.

Thank you. I always got time for you, Eric.

Oh, you are too kind. And that's how you know your true friends are when they really blow up and get successful and they still like, like, I don't get thrown immediately into the voicemail and you still respond within a couple of days. That's amazing. So I appreciate you for that.

Thank you. Thank you.

But I mean, for those that don't know your story, I mean, wow, we have so much we can cover today, but well, first of all, other than you and I walking the streets of Moscow, that's how long our friendship goes. And I can't— there's not too many calls I'm going to have or interviews I'm going to have with somebody I could say I went to Russia with because there's what, 3, 4 of us back in that trip.

Yeah, it was what, like, was it 20? It was 2017, I think. And we went to Moscow. Like very few people I can say like, hey, remember that one time in Russia?

That's right. We will always have a connection and bond due to our trip to Russia.

Yeah, exactly. That was a fun mastermind trip. Yeah.

That was a cool experience. And of course that's, you know, I really got to know you quite a bit when you were being Glenn's partner and wingwoman for a Flight Club mastermind. And prior to that, your story's amazing. I mean, you started off and I wanna go a little bit in your entrepreneurial journey. Before we talk about what's crushing in copy, like what you've been able to grow, and I'm really curious, I want to get into what's probably on everybody's mind right now is this AI and how it's affecting copy in your whole business and your world. And I know you tackle that head on. So all of us that are freaking out about that, you're going to probably help calm us and give us some ideas and directions and some shares on that.

Yes, I will do my best.

So, I mean, way back, and I remember this story pretty vividly, you were one of the early people helping out position over in Mindvalley. And I know a lot of people know Mindvalley, and I believe what, you went like from intern to some major creative director or something, or remind me of the story and where—

that was my title, major creative director.

Major, major creative. Actually, let's take a step back before. How do you even get to Mindvalley? All of a sudden you're finding yourself in the middle of wherever that is, wherever you guys were. Where was that? Philippines or somewhere?

Malaysia. Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. So I was finishing up my degree. I studied at the University of Alberta. U of A, but the Canadian one in Alberta, Canada, and was finishing up my degree in business law with a major in economics. And I was like, apply to law school. But I'm like, you know what, before I decide I'm gonna become a lawyer and like do the second chapter, you know, of my studies, I really want to go abroad. And I had spent the last year of my undergrad degree living in Vienna, Austria. I had just fallen in love with travel and I thought, okay, I really wanna travel again, but I have no money, so I need to find someone who will give me money to travel. And through an organization that I was a member of in university called ISEC, which facilitates students to go do internships abroad, I essentially stumbled upon Mindvalley because Vishen was also an ISEC member when he was in university and he was an alumni of the program. And so I just found, literally found a job listing on this job site for this program. That said, you know, marketing internship, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. At that point I was like, marketing, okay. But they weren't teaching like online marketing in school back then. They called it e-commerce. I remember like they called it e-commerce, but it was literally at like the back of the textbook, one little chapter that's like websites. And you're like, I don't even understand, like, what do you mean? And so when I found Mindvalley, I literally was like, I have no idea what they do, but I really want to go work abroad and I like marketing. I did a minor in marketing, so I'm like, okay. So I applied and—

or two words, it said travel and marketing. You're like, I'm so lost. Get the map out and see where you're even going. Like, I mean, yeah.

And I have this really like distinctive memory of looking at their website and trying to understand what they did, right? Because I mean, as someone now who's been in the info marketing world for so long, it makes sense. But back then I remember clicking from their website to one of their landing pages and it truly was like a squeeze page where the only thing you could do is enter your name and email address. And I was so confused. I'm like, where do I click? What the hell is this? I mean, I asked so few questions. Like, now as an adult, I look back and I'm like, how did my parents ever let me just on a whim, like, move to Malaysia? Like, thank God it wasn't some, like, you know, crazy trafficking scam or anything like that. Because I truly, within a couple of weeks, had sold my car, quit my job. I was serving at a restaurant down the street from my parents' house because I had moved back into my parents' basement. And I said to Mom and Dad, I'm like, well, I'm moving to Malaysia. I had to look it up on the map. I'm like, it's above Singapore and below Thailand. That's all I really knew. And off I was, off I went.

How'd that conversation go?

You know, surprisingly well. I think they were like, wow, okay, good luck. You know, like, I think they probably thought like, she's not that serious about it. And then when it happened, they were like, shit. I remember having the interview with Vishen and Mike, who was the co-founder at the time, and I just remember saying to them like, I'll do anything. Like, I'll clean the toilets. Like, I'm just, I'm a fast learner. Just put me anywhere. And that was, I moved over there, I think it was May 2007.

Okay.

Or 2008, something like that.

Okay. So the career was born indirectly. You had no idea, nor did you know you were this amazing entrepreneur. So, okay, so you get there and you're interning and then what, you just quickly rise in the ranks? What happened there?

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the perk of joining a startup. You know, I was one of the early employees there, probably within employee number like 8 and 15. I don't know, somewhere in there. Oh wow. And It was just all about getting scrappy, you know, you know, you've started multiple companies. It's like you get into this environment where you kind of have your role and then there's a million gaps that need to be filled. And I think I was just really good at being like, I'll try that, I'll try that. I mean, for a while I was running the blogs and then for a while I was trying pay-per-click advertising, even though I didn't even really know what it was. I was watching all the resources I could find on how to run Google Ads, you know, do pay-per-click, and then I managed to to get promoted to business manager, and then, and then next thing you know, promoted to creative director, where I was overseeing most of the launches and things like that that were happening at the company. And then finally I got promoted to event director, where the very last thing I did at Mindvalley before leaving was organize Awesomeness Fest, now called A-Fest, which happened in Maui, Hawaii in 2011. So I had the full range of experiences while at the company.

What a cool, I mean, for those of us, think about it. I mean, I had a similar experience too, as you mentioned. I mean, just being able to see all these roles, cuz you don't really know how good you are or what you're gonna fall in love with. I mean, school is school and you sort of go from textbook to course and now you're like, okay, open playpen.

Seriously.

Kind of cool. Hey, I'm actually good at this compared to others. And you start to find your way.

Yeah. And that's when I fell in love with copywriting. Like I, I never was a copywriter at Mindvalley. I never had that title, but I worked really closely with all the copywriters and the marketers and I kind of just got this holistic view of marketing and just absolutely fell in love with the psychology behind it and how to design funnels and how to inspire people to take action. And it just, I mean, talk about the best education I could have ever gotten in this industry.

I can imagine. And so now the company's getting bigger and bigger. It's 2011, as you mentioned. Very scary. Think about life's choose your own adventures, right? You know, the big important question, the path, like, should I go down this route, which is something new, or stay here? Scary time. What to do? Walk me through what's going on there.

Biggest reason that I left was because I was experiencing major health issues. So I'm celiac, I'm gluten-free, didn't know it at the time, was basically poisoning myself every day with the food I was eating, which would have happened no matter where I lived in the world, but I didn't know I was celiac. And so I was experiencing major, major health issues that were manifesting from like skin things to allergies to fatigue, anxiety, depression, panic attacks. Like, I was fully sick and just completely falling apart. And honestly, I could not really figure out what was going on with me, and I really thought it was maybe stress-related. Obviously, I was, you know, put myself into this high-stress environment. I was living overseas in a tropical climate where there was mold and different things that maybe I wasn't used to. Like, you start piecing together all these things that could be what's causing your illness. And so I kind of just made the tough decision to quit my job. And at the same time, I was also kind of working on stuff on the side and being really inspired by stuff I was working on. And so it kind of just felt like the moment that, okay, it's now or never. And extremely difficult, but I think what made it easier was I had been living away from family and close friends for almost 4 years at that point. And you really do hit this kind of fork in the road where I was like, either this will be my long-term career and I'm going to set down roots and like make Malaysia my home, or now's the time, like we're just gonna freaking go start your business. I quit, I moved to Vancouver where I live now, Vancouver, Canada, and started my freelance business doing copywriting and marketing consulting. And I'm not gonna lie, like I, for about a year, thought I had made the biggest decision or biggest mistake of my life because I had gone from being star employee, getting praise every day, surrounded by 50+ incredible entrepreneurial individuals, to being alone, sleeping on an air mattress in, you know, my best friend's spare room, paying her parents a discounted rent because they were so kind to let me rent the spare room for so cheap, and thinking, what have I I'm fucking done. Like, I am just destroyed my life. And it was, yeah, it was definitely a humbling experience.

Wow. I mean, yeah, you figured— I mean, you had 3 things. I see all these things pointing at you. And I mean, just to close the loop on the health, I mean, you're probably doing that wondering, and are you still not healthy yet? Are you sitting there saying, I did all this, I'm still sick?

Yeah, well, I found out shortly after moving home that I was celiac. And so of course in my head I'm like, if only I had found out, you know, 3 months sooner, then I wouldn't have had to quit my job. And I had to really sort of surrender to the everything happens for a reason, everything happens for me, this was how it was supposed to go. But there were definitely a few moments where I was like, do I come crawling back? Yeah, please hire me back, you know. But I also really didn't want to move back to Malaysia at that point. I had, you know, come back to Canada and enjoyed being back closer to family and stuff. So it was just like, nope, this is my path, I'm doing this.

You did. And then, so now you're starting to grind, and when did you sort of get that point of, okay, I'm starting to get a little bit of momentum here? You're putting the boulder up the hill.

It took a while. I mean, I say this to a lot of my students, like, I was networking my little butt off, you know? Like, I think that's probably right around the time that I met you. Like, I was living in Vancouver, but I was flying down to the States to go to like as many conferences as I could afford and just trying to build my network and get clients. And it took probably a good year of just doing small little odd jobs here and there before I really started to sort of find my groove and find clients who then, you know, would pay me ongoing and, you know, put their trust in me and all of that.

Right. And so, okay, now you are all of a sudden realizing you're an entrepreneur now, you're on your own now on one side. How did that feeling shift where as much as it was scary, you now controlled your own destiny?

Yeah, it felt good. I was extremely proud of myself, but I think just like anyone starting their own business, like you're doing it, but the whole time in the back of your mind you're like, this is just a fluke. Any minute now it's all gonna come crashing down and I'm gonna have to go get a 9-to-5 job. Like, I think it took me at least 5 years of like doing it for myself. Yep. And being like, okay, I haven't had to go get a job. I think the fear was real. And of course, like any business, there were ups and downs, but I also built a lot of amazing relationships with clients that, I mean, my longest standing client I worked with for over 10 years and they became like family, you know? And so it was, you know, it was really cool to be able to, to be behind the scenes in a lot of businesses, which is where I felt very comfortable for a long time, just completely behind the scenes.

Right. Just being back there. And then, I mean, me even watching your journey from, you know, as Flight Club, being on stage with Glenn and helping get that going. You know, it's hard to really know, you know, unpeel. And even on our trips to, I know you're out there, you know, consulting and having lots of clients, but you know, it's not like we unpeeled the financial, you know, records on our trip and say, hey, you know, we're on a taxi ride, you know, how's the real numbers going? And yeah, how's business? But I know you started taking off. I think there was, I guess, another turning point. You're doing that. And I know at least from my visual, you then decide you want to go 100% in your business and you're not, you weren't doing Flight Club anymore with Glenn cuz you wanted to go focus on, on that as well as all the other adventures. Where's that? I mean, you've now really were the last, and then you started a YouTube channel. So I want to get into that where you rapidly just said, all right, I'm going all in my business. You started getting some pretty big clients. I mean, was there a turning point where you're feeling like, okay, I had my one client for many years. Now I'm starting to get some good momentum here. I'm gonna start building my team. And then we'll get into YouTube because I want to get into that story. I mean, you rapidly grew from like zero to a hundred super fast, a hundred thousand followers, I should say, really fast.

I think like any business journey, you know, it really is just a series of opportunities that you say yes to. You know, like I was working behind the scenes, working with clients, and then Glenn, who of course, you know, the Speakeasy crew know well, he was always one of my closest friends from back in my Mindvalley days. I met him through coming to conferences and things like that. He was starting up Flight Club, which, you know, was his mastermind. He's, he As his friend asked me to partner with him on it, and of course that was like the first time I had ever come out from behind the scenes where I was standing on stage and co-hosting this mastermind. And of course the imposter syndrome of like, but I'm just a little baby freelance marketer. Like I don't have a big business or a, an outward-facing brand. But that really was such an amazing confidence builder and, and such an incredible way to just be around such brilliant business owners all the time. And so I really, you know, think. As much as I know Glenn will say that, like, I helped him so much, he also really helped me. Kind of, he saw something in me that I think I hadn't quite seen in myself, which is like, while I felt comfortable behind the scenes, he was like, no, like, I want you co-hosting this with me. And then, yeah, it would have been around— well, I started my YouTube channel in 2019, and then it would have been probably in 2021 that I stepped back from Flight Club because it just You know, my business was growing. It was all just taking too much of my time and energy to split my focus.

Yeah.

And that was a tough, it's always tough to say to your best friend, like, I love you, but I'm gonna go fully in on the Copy Posse. And so he obviously handled it really well and has been so supportive. So what kind of happened was in 20, it was around 2018 where I was starting to build my team because I was getting to a point in my marketing consulting business that I was saying no to way more clients than I could take on. I was getting bigger name clients. I was taking on projects. But I was saying no 80% of the time because I simply just couldn't take it on myself. And so I started to build a small team and grow my agency, which was great, but I was kind of just in this space of like, what's that next mountaintop? Like, what is the next goal for me? What do I want to do next? Because I had done what I had set out to do. I had built a multi-six-figure business as a one-person show, which was very great. And then I started building my team and I really kind of had this like, is this what I want to do? And so when I started my YouTube channel, my primary goal was I'm just gonna use this to attract more clients and I'm going to build my agency. That was the path that made sense to me. I never in a million years thought that I would have the Copy Posse or what I have today. And I really did it because, to be honest, I was getting quite jaded by the marketing world. I was getting kind of, you know, as someone who was doing it behind the scenes, kind of getting it jaded by the tactics and the strategies that so many people were talking about that I didn't really believe in or get behind. I was starting to see this major shift happening in the info marketing world where it really was more about transparency and personal branding, and it was getting harder and harder to sell products and services online that you weren't willing to put like your name or your face behind. And that I was working with a lot of clients that were, you know, trying to scale basically a sort of a faceless brand. And I was like, okay. And I had so much to say about it and I thought, well, who am I to talk about this? 'Cause I've been behind the scenes and completely anonymous for a long time. I'm gonna start my YouTube channel and just talk about what I think modern marketing is today. And I think it just struck a chord. I think also because there weren't a lot of women teaching marketing with the experience that I had built up over the previous decade. And I came at it, I think, with a fresh perspective. And I think that's partially why my channel grew as fast as it did. And then it was about a couple months in when I realized that people who were watching were people who wanted to start businesses like I had, consulting and freelancing and working with other clients as opposed to me growing my agency. I realized that there was a huge opportunity and a need in the marketplace for sort of a fresh perspective on marketing for the people who wanted to do it themselves.

Interesting. So you found that little niche, people liked you, obviously you're, you know, you're great in the camera, you're not as, Going from, like you said, behind the scenes, it's so hard knowing you now, you know, behind the scenes, but now, you know, you're on stages and obviously that Flight Club journey certainly built the confidence. You're on stage putting yourself in the right rooms. I'm just kind of recapping some of these lessons, which are great for all entrepreneurs. You know, the networking, the getting in the front of the right rooms, putting yourself, you know, with the right people who see you in a certain light is a lot. And now even on YouTube, people see you in that light of being a leader in that niche and doing such great things with respect to the marketing, the copy. And you said something earlier about. One of the reasons you didn't expect it to grow that much, um, and one of the reasons it has grown is the authenticity, what you're putting out there. And if anybody wants to see it, they can just go to your channel and see like the kind of videos you're doing. And for people that want to find you, what, the Coffee Posse YouTube channel?

It's just my name, Alex Cattoni.

Yeah, Alex Cattoni YouTube. So check her out there because you'll get some great ideas from that. Now, has it ultimately led to your initial, you know, idea? Is it bringing you a lot more clients by having that and all the energy it's gone into? What is it provided for you having built the channel up now?

Yeah, I think the thing that's the most exciting for me is realizing that there were so many people out there who thought about marketing the same way I did and were looking for a way to do it that didn't feel like icky, or what I call douchey. You know, like, my mission is to dedouchify the internet because I think there's so, so much bad marketing out there, and there's, there's a better way to do things. And so, you know, I'm not afraid to say it like it is, and I'm sure ruffle a few feathers in the process, but there were just so many people and just incredible rad humans who were like, oh my God, finally someone who's sharing my perspective on marketing. And so all of a sudden realizing that there was such a demand for people to learn, you know, my formulas and methods and strategies for writing copy, but also branding and messaging and crafting your brand promise and all the stuff that goes behind building a successful business, which I had obviously done behind the scenes at Mindvalley. I had done behind the scenes with all the clients I had worked with and then was sort of in the process of doing it for myself. And so it So it was really cool to sort of almost be my own case study to put these things into place and go, oh, look, see, like it actually works when you show up as who you are and when you show up authentically and when you give a voice to this identity that so many people identify with, like being a cool marketer, but they weren't finding their person or their mentor that they wanted to learn that from online. And then, you know, 2020 was when I officially launched the Copy Posse as it is today with my first coaching program. And in 2020, You know, reached 7 figures that year. It was a great year, as we know, to start an online business. Timing was impeccable. So I won't take full credit. I can thank the pandemic for that a little bit, but it was just sort of go time right after that. You know, now I have a team of 10 women. We have programs, memberships, have a mastermind. I did my first live event last year with 200 people, you know, joining. And it was just, it's just been cool. It's been like, obviously incredibly stressful at times. And there are days where I miss my freelancing days of like, remember when I would just have 2 calls a week and I would be in Russia or Italy or Germany, right? Like, what am I doing? But to be honest, it's the mission that and the work that we do that keeps me super tapped in and excited about what I do every day.

That's great. And I want to get in some tactics. And as we roll into that, you talked a little bit copy policy, and I know you really focus on ton of courses related to marketing, copy, branding. I mean, you are one of the best when it comes to the, for sure, copywriting and branding out there. And like you said, online marketing, you've been in there forever. And the word you keep saying, you keep alluding to and said a couple of times, which I keep talking about, thinking about is authenticity. You're going to say like it is, you're going to act it, you're going to do it versus just being somebody else on stage teaching a bunch of stuff that they're not really living it and you're living it, which is amazing. People are seeing that and feeling that. So Copy Posse, IML, who are you attracting out there? Like, what are people running to you for?

Yeah. So I initially, my first launch was very much geared towards freelance copywriters. Training people how to basically start a freelancing side hustle. And that is still a big part of what I do. My flagship program teaches that. It teaches people the skills they need to essentially get paid to write, but more than write, get paid to do marketing for clients. Because, you know, you've been around as long as I have, everyone's always looking for someone to help them with their marketing. And no matter how advanced AI gets, marketing is always still gonna be incredibly important and people are gonna need to be able to have their hand on the steering wheel for that. But now I've expanded a lot of my teaching to also include business owners and people who wanna improve their own messaging. They're looking to DIY their messaging, whether they're launching something new or improving their brand messaging, because I think now what a lot of people are feeling is there's so much noise in the marketplace. You know, when we started with online marketing, it was like if you had a good offer, that was kind of enough. People didn't even really need to know, like, who you were selling it, as long as you, you know, ran ads to a VSL, right? Like you're good, right? And now I think a lot of people are experiencing just the bombardment of noise that's flooding the marketplace. And in my opinion, and I'll echo what my friend Ryan Levesque has said, which is I really do believe we're entering this era where the messenger is becoming more important than the message because there are so many people who sell what we sell to the same people in a very similar way. And what makes us different is who we are. And so I've been talking a lot about personal branding lately and a lot about, you know, not being afraid to have the real conversations and share who you are and what you value because people wanna put their money where their values are. And so although copywriting is definitely the wrapping that I think I serve a lot of my content in, it all boils down first to just getting super clear on who you are, what you stand for, who you serve, and how you wanna show up.

That makes a lot of sense. I mean, it really goes down to trust at the end of the day. And when you're dealing with so many choices out there, who am I going to trust on that decision that I'm going to feel good about that resonates with me? And it sounds like you're doing an amazing job helping people bring that out. You said something earlier, and this is definitely my probably number one question I've been excited to ask you going into this talk is, I mean, we got to get into AI. And I've been thinking about you and thinking, oh my God, how's this affecting Alex? I know you're going to figure this out and really had to turn it into a positive. You know, I hear story after story, people within Speakeasy Mastermind, others, you know, hey, I want to write this. Give me a landing page, write in the voice of Alex Cattoni or write in the voice of Ryan Levesque or write in the voice of, you know, all these other, you know, Gary Halbert, any of these amazing people. So how are you combating that? How are you teaching your Copy Posse who you're teaching all these people now how to become copywriters and they're all afraid?

Yeah. Yeah. And you're right. I mean, yeah, it definitely was a shakeup and I think You know, a lot of people were crapping their pants for a while and I think probably still are. But you know, you said something earlier where you're like, it's all about building trust, right? Like to me, this is the thing that so many people seem to be overlooking. After attention, trust is the most valuable currency that we have in marketing. And you know, I have a degree in business economics and so, you know, when you look at pure economic principle, the more widely available something becomes, the less valuable it becomes. And so what's happening right now is now AI and generative AI is available to every single person on the planet equally, right? Copywriting in its simplest form of like words on a page is now no longer held by the select elite few who, you know, can charge you $10,000 for a sales page, which, you know, we know was the bros of the copywriting world for a long time. And you know, when I look at that, I'm like, great. So now at its purest, you know, simplest form of just words on a page, now everybody can do it. And if you're trying to outcompete or outscream or outcapture attention from your competitors using the same pool of generative AI that everybody else is using, like, that's a race to the bottom because like, what are you gonna, what are you gonna say? Like, hey Eric, you're gonna create 10 pieces of content using AI every single day. Well, guess what? I'm gonna create 100 pieces of content. Guess what? I'm gonna create a million pieces. Like, how do you win that game? And so I like to ask the question of if trust right now is the, you know, the, if not, you know, after attention, the most valuable currency in marketing, what can I do to make sure I'm building more trust? Love it. And I talk about the 3 touchpoints of trust, and there's only 3 ways that any online business owner can build trust with their community, their audience, with their customers. One is through the content they create. So this is the stuff that we are putting out there expecting, asking our consumers to spend their time consuming. We didn't take longer than 2 seconds to create it, yet we're expecting our customers to spend time watching it. Like, bullshit. They can see right through it. The second thing, and so I define content as any of like the one-to-many communications that you have, whereas the second way to build trust is through your communications one-to-one. So these are like your DM messages, these are your customer service emails, these are the conversations that are probably the most important because if you have someone's attention through a one-to-one conversation, converting that conversation to a sale is actually so much easier than in a one-to-many conversation. Mm-hmm. Yet everyone's bragging about how they're outsourcing their entire customer support team to AI, and then they're going, well, nobody's complaining about it and we're still making sales. It's like, okay, yes. And are those customers gonna come back and are they gonna buy from you again? And are they gonna trust you? And then the third thing is consumer experiences or the way we deliver results, whether that's through programs, courses, memberships, and all of that. So my philosophy on AI is that if we want to build trust, we should be very careful about outsourcing the only 3 touchpoints of trust that we have with our audience to AI. I am not anti-AI. I freaking love AI. Love AI. My team and I use it every single day. We use it to analyze data. We use it to brainstorm hooks. We use it to match members within our community with people who we think they're going to be more likely to connect with, to create accountability pods. We use it to summarize survey data. We use it to summarize content. We, like, we have custom GPTs and knowledge databases, and we're building an AI agent so that people who have questions can get the answers they want immediately. We're still doing all of that, but we're just being very careful about not replacing the human-to-human trust-building activities that I think people are so desperate for right now. And as soon as they even just get a whiff of that disconnection, they're probably tapped out and looking somewhere else.

Love it. So brilliant. Well said. I kind of agree with a lot of what you're talking about. I think about You know, where this future is headed and you think of human nature as Brian Tracy, my beloved partner, says love expediency, right? We want to do what's most expedient and fast. So I think there's going to be a huge wave of laziness across everywhere. Oh, like you just said, all right, I got my support in there taking sales. I'm done. I can go back off, take on the next thing. And I think at the rate at which we're also putting content out there, I mean, don't you think that people are going to be able, our little AI radar meters are going to get sharper and sharper for as consumers? I mean, you're already seeing it, right? Oh, that was AI. That was AI copy. Look at the way the bullets are and the lines. Yeah, that was AI that did that. So like, it's almost like, I feel like there's gonna be this sense of easy for the content producers to do it because it's one last task and saves them money. So they're gonna go that route. But all of a sudden the consumer's gonna look and say, ah, like you said, I love it. You said the trust. They're gonna say, do I really trust this? Is this lazy? Is somebody I wanna buy into? How do I get that human connection back?

Yeah. And, and you said it like, And the argument, right, which a lot of AI people would probably say is like, yeah, but AI is gonna get better and better too. And to me, again, this is just an argument of like, yeah, AI is gonna get better and better and we're gonna get better and better at spotting it. And so there might be like a short little window where you can really take advantage of people's cluelessness. But at the end of the day, if we feel we might not be able to read an email at first glance and go, that was written by AI, and for the record, We use like for some of our transactional type of emails, recap emails, takeaway emails, meeting notes, emails, like great AI, handy, super great. But if we're trying to replace like our storytelling emails or the emails that we send, you know, trying to connect with our audience and resonate with their pain points to then get them to take action and spend time with us and money with us and give us their attention and all of those things, even if someone doesn't directly spot an email and go, that's AI. If you're replacing your soul, I know this gets a little woo woo, but if you're literally replacing like your heart and soul over an extended period of time with something like AI, I truly believe that people, whether or not they can spot it in one email, will definitely feel a disconnect over an extended period of time. And guess what? They're not gonna care enough to email you and say, I no longer trust you. I feel disconnected from you. I think I'm gonna go find somebody else. They're not gonna say that. They're just gonna move on and you're gonna be sitting there going, I wonder what happened. I wonder why my conversions are down.

Yeah, exactly.

So I'm constantly asking myself now, knowing that distrust is the default state, like you said, our rate, like I did a masterclass at the top of the year where I was live like this, you know, talking to my community and we had thousands of people on the line and there was a lot of people who didn't know me yet and we, had a bunch of, you know, ads running to the masterclass and people were in the chat going, this is AI. Like, if this isn't AI or if this isn't automated, like say something, say this. Like they were trying and I didn't have the chat open, but luckily my team and my community were all in there going, no, it really is her. But like, isn't that sad that now as marketers we're like, the question we really should be asking ourselves is like, how do I prove to my audience that I really do care because now they immediately assume that I'm trying to automate everything.

Got it. It's so, I mean, it's so funny as you say that, 'cause I think about it too. You're like, I just want a freaking human. 'Cause if the AI doesn't respond perfectly as a human would, and it's so hard, it's gonna take a while to get to that level.

Yeah.

And then, you know, you're comparing, like you just said, you said that example. I'm just gonna, all right, I'm gonna go the other product now. Like, I know I can talk to a live person. I want to have it. Even if you're getting the same answers at some point, you're gonna wanna have a human connection. So I think what you're saying is so important. It's almost like you're thinking multiple steps ahead to say, we gotta use AI, but we also at the same time gotta be thinking, playing a little bit of offense here slash defense, however you wanna say it, to say, well, where do I integrate the human touch as I'm onboarding AI? And is that something you're now teaching with your team and your, your copy posse? Are you sort of indicating and saying, look, use AI for this, but make sure you keep on the trust on the human side over here.

Absolutely. I mean, that's kind of the backbone of what it is that I teach. And I think that, you know, for me, I have this sort of philosophy about one of the best ways to build trust is to give control to the customer. And so again, it doesn't mean you don't use AI. Like if a customer's like, I would happily talk to your bot because I know I'm asking a question that like this bot's gonna give me the best answer and like, I don't need to talk to someone. But when we're talking about like real struggles and challenges and objections and the number of emails we get back from people saying, I can't believe this is a real person writing me back, which to me makes me so sad because I'm like, wow, like they've already experienced the fatigue of like having to—

there's the opportunity. I mean, I'm thinking my analogy in my head is slamming the phone down and hitting the zero button saying, operator, operator, just give me someone.

Agent, agent. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think everyone wants to like pick a side, right? Like, why is everything so divisive right now? It's like you're either this or you're that. It's like, for me, it's not a question of being pro-AI or anti-AI. Like, you can't be anti-AI. Like, it's just part of how we do things now. But I think we need to start being incredibly discerning with how and where and when we use it and make sure we're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, or else in 5 years we're gonna be like, wow, what happened? Because I had all these customers who loved purchasing from me and we're all about this and we're all about that. And then slowly, like, numbers start going down and like, sure, you might be automating everything and taking a little vacation. But like, again, is that a race to the bottom because you're trying to completely outsource any work effort connection, which is what humans are so desperately craving right now?

I love it. I love it. I love it. I know we're running down on time. So one thing I wanted to share, you were so kind earlier in our quote, virtual green room, non-AI green room. We were both there with our real bodies there talking. You said that, and you mentioned earlier, you're teaching, I mean, Like I've used some of your people before that you've taught and they've kind of gone under your umbrella, which they're all so amazing. And you've always been kind to say, hey, you need somebody who's, you know, can write copy and sales copy. And now I almost look, I'm going to add a third layer to that, can write sales copy under the new AI world where they know how to be authentic and build trust. You have an army of these people and you have a way for anybody listening, right? You're going to offer an opportunity for people to reach out to them. Like you have some kind of job board. You want to talk about that?

Yeah, so something I'm really proud of is obviously I've spent the last, you know, 5 years training incredible copywriters and marketers and business owners. And many of these copywriters and marketers are service providers who work and support other business owners. And I have a community that have all been through my higher level programs and a job board where I don't take a single, you know, kickback override percentage. For me, I am just so happy to help connect business owners who are looking for rad, you know, marketers, content strategists, copywriters, and hire them. And so if you just go to my website, copyposse.com, you'll be able to scroll down and find the job board where you just fill out a quick form. It gets posted on our job board to my highest level trained students, and you'll just start getting applications immediately. And we've had. So many people say that they have found like the perfect team member, thought partner, copywriter, marketing director, you know, any of the above through that job board. So it's just, I'm so happy to be able to connect rad humans together.

That's amazing. And I can vouch for that 'cause I've hired a few of yours and they've all been amazing and they've all been under your world and domain and every one of 'em has learned a lot from you, from an amazing person. So, wow. I'm so glad we got to spend some time today. Thank you for sharing. I mean, some really, really powerful nuggets for all of us that are putting out copy at a rapid pace and what we should be doing. And, you know, to kind of close the loop, I know, uh, since you love to travel and we've done so many travels, where was your last trip that you went to?

I just got back from Italy actually a couple weeks ago. So I love to go to Italy almost every summer that I can. And yeah, we just relaxed and we drank Aperol Spritzes and ate shit ton of mozzarella. And I literally told my team, like, going back to the whole like transparency and authenticity thing, you know, I've, was promoting all over my social media, like I'm offline. So I said to my team, I'm offline. People know I'm offline. I'm not writing and sending emails. So my team did an email takeover and they took over all of the emails that we sent out during those 3 weeks that I was away. And it was actually really fun. I'd be like laying by the pool in our villa, reading emails from my team about like, oh, Alex is gallivanting around and all of that. But it was really, really fun. And yeah. Highly recommend.

It actually makes them step up, amazingly enough. So it's a double win there cuz they're learning on the way. And what's favorite parts of Italy since you go so much? Where's your spots?

So we go to Puglia every single year. It's the heel of the boot. So you know how Italy, it's shaped like a boot. It's the heel of the boot. It's where we got married. It's just countryside, olive orchards. It's just stunning. And like the pace is so slow, like there's nothing to do there, which I absolutely love. So I've been to Florence and Venice and Amalfi and Rome and, you know, all of those places. And those are incredible, but I like the just lay by a pool and do nothing kind of vibe.

So yeah, we need to shut it down. Well, very cool. And on that note, thanks again for joining us today and look forward to hanging out with you again soon.

Thanks for having me. Bye.

And that's a wrap from the Speakeasy Mastermind Podcast. If something sparked for you, don't keep it to yourself. Share it, review it. And pass it to the one person who needs to hear this right now. Want in on the real mastermind? Tap the link in the show notes to apply. Until next time, keep scaling, stay sharp, and don't be the smartest one in the room.