#64: She Started a Brand Before She Started a Career — Sophie de Haën

I think influencers are building these massive companies that comparatively mine is very small to now. Like, people are just succeeding so much in being an influencer and a business owner. But then on another hand, because I wasn't an influencer that got to a certain amount of followers and then she decided just to start a brand because she could, I started a brand and was growing simultaneously. So the people that support me and the community I've built recognizes that, and they're not just like, oh, this is an influencer just trying to make more money.

Welcome to Startups Decoded, the show that gets real about what it takes to build a successful startup. I'm Andy Walsh, 2x exited founder, strategist, and your host. Each week I talk with top founders, investors, and operators to unpack the plays that drive real traction, not just headlines. If you're building something bold, this is where you'll get the honest insights to scale with clarity and confidence. Let's keep growing together. Hit subscribe and share with your community. It would mean the world to me. Hello and welcome to Welcome back to Startups Decoded. The traditional founder goes down a path of building a product, taking that to market, getting feedback, and then finding ways to ultimately commercialize and sell it. The other way in is to leverage your own personal brand to create a product. And today I'm fortunate to have Sophie de Horne, who has got SDH Paints. Welcome.

Thank you for having me.

This is the, it feels like the complete inverse. And I say that in a curious way as far as what I typically do and the conversations that I have are people that are actively testing and trying to find ways to get momentum where I feel you got momentum and then leverage that to create a product. Can you give us a little bit of a setup as far as what SDH Paints is to set the scene?

Yeah, so I started painting during COVID and just like everyone else, I was bored in my house and found this new passion of mine. And then I went to college at Arizona, the University of Arizona, the following fall. And kind of rediscovered my passion for art because me and my friend had moved into our first college apartment. There was tons of wall space. We were on a college budget. Naturally, I decided to deck out the entire place with my art. And, uh, then I also was kind of growing a following on TikTok. This was in a day and age where no one was really taking it seriously. And I don't think there were a lot of influencers in the sense how they are now. I think it was mostly just like dancers and I don't dance, so it was just very, very casual. And I started posting my art in my apartment. It started gaining a lot of traction and I was kind of just, I don't know, I think I was like, I wasn't thinking of about it as making a brand, but I just kind of wanted to make an Instagram for fun, not even planning on selling it. Then I just, I got a lot of requests to do so. So I found a manufacturer to make prints and then that's kind of how it started. I sell, I started selling prints of my art and then came the phone cases, which was kind of just a more accessible product for people because the prints were expensive and it's something that you buy one time for your place. And so when I found out I could make phone cases with my art on them and people would buy them more frequently and they were more affordable, I started doing that. And yeah, it's just kind of evolved from there. I sell prints of my work, originals, phone cases, now pouches, stickers. And so yeah, I call it an art brand, but every time I call it that, I think because it's not very conventional and popular, people are kind of confused by that, but that's basically what it is.

I mean, it's, you see it a lot as far as influencers, creators, whatever verbiage you want to choose to define them, the ability to build profile in a way that can be for some people contrived, but for others just natural. And it sounds like you all started off as curiosity in the sense of having downtime, having wall space and finding a passion that you just resonated with and started sharing it in an organic way. Would that be fair to say? Like no, no intention behind it other than just doing it cuz you could.

Yeah, no, totally. I think, I think what drew a lot of people to it was that I was attending this big party school and living this type of lifestyle that was pretty abnormal. And also living in, now I think they're more popular, but a very nice college apartment. It was just, it was interesting to people and I loved sharing it with people because I was having so much fun myself. And so, yeah, it was very just, I don't know, just like natural to me. And it wasn't like started from a making money or business standpoint. It was just kind of very organic.

How big is the University of Arizona?

It's very big. I think it's around 40,000 students on campus. Could be a little off, but yeah, very big.

It's a lot of people in a small space. And that connection with people around you and you're getting inspiration, you're seeing things was being a founder or thinking about a startup even on your radar? Were you, you were studying psychology, right? Mm-hmm. And like at that point you were just having fun. Did you think at any point that you would want to be a founder?

Not directly. I think I've always been creative and I knew I wanted to go into marketing or like, I, I loved the idea of having a brand, but I didn't really have a product in mind at all. So I originally just thought I was gonna study psychology, maybe go into like a marketing or Yeah, like branding sort of job for like a fashion brand or whatever it might be. But yeah, no, being a founder was definitely not on my to-do list.

It's crazy. And there's so many people that obsess over it. And even high school into college for a lot of folks is the time when they see the opportunity to network, to build something, side hustles, and it's very intentional. At what point did it tip over where you started to get enough of a following where you could make money separate to your art? You said you started selling your art, but then you're also getting paid by brands. As well, right?

Yeah. So started probably once I hit like 150K on TikTok. And also I don't even think it was necessarily the follower count. I just think that probably in the last 2 years brands have just started pouring so much more money into that type of content versus typical commercials and advertisements. So I was bringing in a couple of deals every couple of months once I kind of hit that marker. But then actually of January of last year, I was reached out. To buy my agency, _talent. Got a manager and she basically helped me so much with strategy. And now that is like a completely separate source of income for me.

How do you balance the two with product and art and what you're selling there versus also creator work? Do you have a structure that you follow to be able to make sure you can do both at the right level?

That's actually something that I think I go through phases where I struggle with because on one hand, I am making great money from this branded content and I want to keep that up. Up, but then on the other hand, I still want people to recognize my art as like its own entity in a sense. Like I don't, I don't want them to, the lines to be blurred, which I think sometimes they are. But yeah, I, something that I love to do that I think keeps it very separate for me just personally is like every single day I make a to-do list and I have all of my brand stuff to do and all of the stuff that will help me achieve more deals and growth in that area. And then I completely look at my brand as like another thing where I am like the CEO of that brand. So in my mind, I try to divide it. And I think in my content, it's kind of, it's still something I'm learning how to do, but yeah, I don't know. I try to keep them separate.

And it makes sense. There's people that are doing that with two businesses, maybe even two products in the same company, and you have to separate it just for probably sanity's sake alone, but then how you plan out your week, it's structured in that way. The influencer role, I'd have to ask this question because if you were a founder and you were building a tech product and you're out there in the world, everyone would understand that format. But I guarantee there'll be a lot of founders that would look and go, you're just an influencer. Do you get like criticism around that? As far as any skepticism?

I don't think so. I can totally see how people sometimes do. I think on one hand, it's definitely a lot more accepted now. I think influencers are building these massive companies that comparatively mine is very small to now, like people are just succeeding so much in being an influencer and a business owner. But then on another hand, I just think because I wasn't an influencer that got to a certain amount of followers or whatever, and then she decided just to start a brand because she could. I started a brand and was growing simultaneously. So I think that the people that support me in the community I've built recognizes that and they're not just like, oh, this is an influencer just trying to make more money.

And I'm, I'm a skeptic, not of you, of course, but as in people that are influencers that may have a social network, and it could be the school they went to, the people they're friends with, and they're basically just showcasing a life that is almost a silver platter for them. And I'm skeptical of those types of people, but creators who have talent, could be anything, you could be a blacksmith, you could be making phone cases, could be an amazing painter, and all of those things, if you've got skill and you're showcasing that, then I'm I'm all for that. Having the ability to have a business brain and go, well, I love doing this. People are interested. How do I share that with folks? And art is one of the most beautiful things in the world that we have. And without art, the world is a very boring place. So for me, there's a lot of strength in what you've created to be able to acknowledge that there's an opportunity here. And I look at founders and they're typically going the other way in that they're building a product, they're working so hard on whatever that thing is, and then they try and work out how they market it and sell it.

Yeah.

Whereas you built your own brand first and shared what you were doing almost like an active test and learn cycle as far as the type of things people resonated with, what they were liking, what they were purchasing. And you use that in a very, I feel like a soft way from what I'm hearing from you. There was no like strategy or plan or sales approach. It was organic growth is what it sounds like.

Yeah, no, totally. I think it was just people were interested in something and so I just was sharing it naturally. And yeah, it's definitely like a kind of soft approach to like testing products because I mean, it's my art. It's very personal to me. It's what I love to create and I put out pieces that I love, but at the same time I do kind of recognize, I'm like, okay, so people like this style more. Or for example, like now I've dropped a lot more minimalist pieces. I think not only because my personal style has changed, but I think because I know my demographic is now going into corporate America and they can't be wearing phone cases with girls and guns on their phone cases. So now I'm like, I, I'm registering that and I'm kind of adjusting that based on, and like the products I put out based on how I'm seeing my demographic receive them.

And there's so many amazing artists who I respect that are pure artists and have that form, and it's very much a single-minded, this is all about what I want to take from myself and put it down on canvas or whatever that they have, but then they'll also have other products that they scale. And it could be a print, it could be a limited run of 10, 100, 1,000, it could be endless. But, but it, that's basically a reality though. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's the nature of an artist is that you have cycles, you know, you can't just create every day. To get in a space where you can create art takes a lot of focus. It also takes a lot of downtime, a lot of inspiration to do it. So having steady income in parallel why you can be an artist, I think is very common.

Yeah, no, it's— yeah, that's definitely what helps me and allows me to be creative and try new things because I do have that backbone of like, I know what will sell and I also have my other sources of income. Like, I, I'm— I feel very lucky that I have that like comfortability.

And the, the inverse though, like from a profile perspective, is happening now too, which is like, the irony is not lost on me. So the skeptics in the startup world who'd be, who'd be cynical of influencers. Most of these founders now are actually looking about building their own personal brand because they see it as an opportunity. So it's like they're playing catch up on something that's been happening for, call it 10 years, I would say, on the formalization of influencers and creators on social media. But they're doing that out of necessity because with young brands, it's really hard to get traction and get awareness. The only thing that you have to stand on in those early stages is your own personal brand and what you've done, what you're passionate about, and that connection. So I'm seeing podcasts, funny enough, I'm seeing people that have got strategists and creators creating content for them on LinkedIn, and they're doing things to elevate them in the conversation as a means to be able to hit market easier, faster, and make money off whatever they're creating in parallel. And that juxtaposition of two different ways to ultimately the same endgame is fascinating to look at, which is where I see where you're coming from, but also founders coming into the same mix.

Yeah. No, I think more than ever people want to see people. They want to like see where things are coming from. They want to see the person behind these big brands or this podcast, I think. And now more than ever, other bigger brands are just pouring money into social media that there is, there's no good excuse not to try that. Because I mean, it's, it's been working.

And there's a VC out of Los Angeles called Slow Ventures and they specialize purely in creators. And their whole philosophy is anchored around the fact that someone like a MrBeast, right, really mainstream example where the different lines of products that he's creating and the whole team behind him is just like a standard business.

Yeah.

Just happened that he built profile first, but he's so regimented too. People are skeptic about it, but the structure of content strategy, how it's cut up and distributed, there's a lot of thinking that goes behind it as well. And it's easy to look at the end game as far as the piece of content that you see from someone. How much are you thinking about your own personal story? Because you have two hats that you talked about. How do you think about planning ahead what you want to share, what represents you, what represents your business? How do you start to think about that storytelling?

Well, I think that's ever evolving. I think I started social media and my brand when I was 18. So even like looking back then, it's a completely different answer, but I don't know. I think I'm very. I'm, I do wanna venture more into like the fashion and like lifestyle space, but I think that I really enjoy creating content about like my life and beauty and all that stuff, which I love. But then I also see my art brand growing again, kind of like separately, but also in tandem. So yeah, I don't know. I don't have like a distinct answer cuz that could change in like 2 months. But yeah, I'm very happy with how I'm seeing that. Grow now. Yeah.

And it feels like the, you talked a little bit before around community and again, startups are all trying to get communities, people that love their brand, love their product, what they're doing and want to connect and be part of that whole ecosystem. And for you, that's just by default part of what you're doing. And you talked about a feedback loop with like, obviously sales are an easy thing to track as far as what's selling and what's not. As far as feedback you're getting from people on social media, direct feedback, et cetera, how much do you to take that on board as far as the things that people are loving, the things that you are not reserving, and to think about where you go to next with product creation, probably more than art.

Yeah. Um, it's definitely like a mix of two. I think when I'm feeling uninspired to create, uh, that's when I kind of go to my audience and I'm like, what are you guys looking for? Because I, I trust them cuz I've already supported stuff that I've loved making. But then also at the same time, like if I have an idea, I'm just gonna make it and do it and see what happens. Luckily I don't have that typical structure of like, I need to plan months ahead, order inventory and stock and all of that stuff. All my products are made to order. So that kind of gives me that flexibility to just be like, I can put it out there and if 2 people buy it, that's fine. If 100, that's great. So it's like, I don't know, it's definitely like a mix of when I go and find that feedback versus when I just do it myself.

Even from a practical standpoint with phone cases, like they change every time.

Yeah.

So like having too much stock, you get stuck with something that's not even relevant for a new device.

Oh, it would be terrible. Yeah.

So stock management is a real issue for a lot of people if they're creating like consumer goods where you have to manufacture stock quantities. And managing that is a real challenge. For you, having that element of control, I guess, is what first and foremost good for cash flow. And even like the challenge though, I would assume is that everyone wants everything instantly.

Yeah.

How do you manage expectations around the fact that you order something and it may take a few weeks to actually end up at your home?

Luckily, my manufacturer is great. It takes less than 2 weeks. Yeah, I mean, I state it explicitly on the website, so I've, I'll sometimes get some frustrated emails, but it's honest. It's not a big deal. I don't think.

I think it's really important too. And I've heard on the fashion side, some awful stories of a brand that's been picked up into a huge chain store. And they'll order hundreds of thousands of items and then some of them don't sell and they'll just ship them back.

Yeah.

So that, and that, and they're like, we can't move this many items. And then the waste that comes off the back of that as well is horrendous. And not many people know around that cycle. So actually doing it by order is such a better and more sustainable way just to have some respect for the environment too.

Totally. Yeah.

From a business sense, I'd love to focus a little bit about You studied psychology. This is technically your first job, right? From just day to day, how did you find a way to be able to get any process, like on operations and finance and tax and all the things that you have to do to run a business? What was your experience in learning that? Was it just an induction of fire? Like, how did you approach it?

I think it's a lot, or it was a lot of trial and error. I think I naturally am a very structured person. And so kind of, I love like routines, like I'm very good at making that for myself and sticking to it. But yeah, I remember at the beginning, like I, it just, I didn't, I didn't even know like how to pay taxes. Like I didn't know how to like set up a business, all this stuff. So I feel lucky that I have like my mom and I have people around me that really helped me. But then in terms of just kind of piecing together all the different parts of a business in my day-to-day, I owe it all to just being very structured and like I love planning stuff, so I think that's just a part of my character, but yeah, it's definitely something I've learned to get better at.

And I guarantee that every founder would say exactly the same thing about their own business. Like they're going into it for the first time and I moved here 2012 from Australia and started my own business. Even just learning New York, New York state tax and I had clients all over. So you basically have to learn the tax rules for every state in the US and whether there's tax on top of things or not and submitting to each of those states is a minefield. You just don't know what you're doing. Been in businesses and ran businesses before, and it was still new for me.

No, there, there is so much more that goes behind the scenes that you have to learn, but luckily it is kind of one of those things that I feel like once you get it down, you get it down and you can figure it out.

So as far as where you go to with what you're doing, I'd love to explore a little bit. You talked about your ICP being people that are in college and now going into corporate America. So you've got an aging group of people that are loyal, it sounds like, and they're evolving in their own life stage. How do you start to think about demographics of customers and having a range? Is your anchor just staying with the same people that you grew up with, like through college, as far as the original customers? Or are you thinking more structurally around who your customers are and maybe having different ranges for different groups?

It's a mix of the two. I think I, obviously my art's very personal to me, so it's always going to reflect where I am and I am also growing up. So the pieces and products I used to put out when I was in college and younger are very different, but I do still think that I have a lot of loyal customers who are in college still. And I think thinking about that, a lot of people in college have that support from their parents and have, um, more money than a typical like post-grad in, especially in New York City, would have. So I know that I still need to like appeal to that kind of demographic. Yeah, I don't know. I also have noticed that while I do have art that is much more mature and kind of more minimalist and that I think a lot of people my age would buy to like wear to their jobs, like I mentioned before, I do still do that like fun art that I think would appeal to like a younger audience. Yeah, I, I definitely have that in mind, but I don't really focus too much on it cuz Again, it's just I make what I want to make and see, see if it works.

And again, I see it different because everyone has a different connection to art in the purest sense of the world. Like, art typically mirrors what's happening in society as well. So if you look back through history, like, people's interpretation of political climate, weather, whatever's going on in their own lives, it comes to life in various forms of art. And you could track it way back, tens of thousands of years, as far as, like, even, like, cave paintings, etc., is a form of tracking what was happening. It's like history. For you in that moment in time, you're taking in the same signal, right? You're looking around and getting inspiration on certain things, so you're a pulse of what's happening. So art in its pure sense should be something that resonates with everyone. How they interpret it doesn't really matter so much because you get your art first and product second, it sounds like.

No, definitely.

So from an art, like, again, we touched on a little bit, but I'm curious, as far as anything direct, creativity is something that any founder likes to focus on. So having the ability to immerse yourself in certain environments— it could be travel, it could be learning a new skill— but to be creative, you need lots of input. Like, if you're on repeat all the time, it's actually hard to be creative. You need to step outside and do that. Do you have anything actively that you do to try and spark creativity of, like, new environments? What does that— is that a formal process, or is it just how you live your life?

I think it's probably just my lifestyle. I think I travel a lot. I also love music. I'm listening to music all day long. Like my friends make fun of me because I always have my AirPods in, and that's a huge source of inspiration for me. But yeah, I also just think moving back to the city after, like, I, I loved college. College was great, but the University of Arizona's in Tucson, Arizona, which isn't the most creatively stimulating place in the world. So I think going from that sort of lifestyle to now being in the city, being around so many different types of people and having these new experiences has definitely inspired like a new type of creativity for me.

New York City is such a melting pot of like the breadth of people as far as where they came from, what their passions are, like some of the cultural patterns in the sense of like music, fashion, rituals. It's amazing. And I'm here very intentionally because of that as well. But then you also have the other side as far as innovation and things that happen and permeate around the world. Again, New York City always feels like the place where things start. And being in that ground level of creativity for me, I find personally inspiring. I don't need to seek it out. It's just on tap everywhere.

No, exactly. It just— yeah, exactly how you said, like, it doesn't feel like something I'm actively looking for. It's just part of my life, like being here.

Yeah. On the music side, I have to ask this because my background is in music. It's what I started doing when I came here to start my business. Is there anything that you're loving music-wise? It's not a judgment on taste, I promise. I'm just curious because I know a little bit about, obviously, your background. And like, I'm curious on influence. For me, my parents' vinyl collection has been definitive in what I listen to still to this day. But what are some of those influences and the, and what are the stuff that you're listening to now?

I think now I, I'm very involved in the house music world. I love house music. It's just something me and my friends love to go and see together, but I seriously listen to every genre. Like my dad made music growing up and then I have a lot of family in Europe, so there was a lot of like Italian music, Spanish music, just like, I feel like I I listen to everything equally, but in terms of like going to shows and stuff like that, I love house music and that genre.

Nice. Anyway, we're not talking about music. That's just a personal question for me. I'm always fascinated because like it's for me, it mirrors my own mental health as well. Like if I'm in a certain mood or I want to do something, there's like a range of artists that I'll just default to that complement what I'm doing. And I've learned that over time, but I can listen to metal and punk equally and still be in a happy place to work, which most people find strange.

No, I totally get that. That's the same with me.

Okay, back on track. As far as the creative process to be a creator, what do you think has, like, should be the focus this year moving forwards? If you're trying to build a personal brand that escalates what you're already doing, I felt like 5 years ago it was very sceney and just a little bit same same. Now that that's starting to dilute and disappear and you actually have to have a bit more credibility to stand out now. What are some of the things that you would advise for people to tell their own story?

I think exactly how you said, I think it's changing. I think people are craving authenticity more. And I've actually seen that a lot because with my manager, in terms of like all the deals and all of that, we talk so much strategy and there's so much kind of like little details that you wouldn't think about, like how the camera is placed, like the lighting, the type of filming. So when And I would say like last year, the beginning of last year, brands, and I think that the app, like specifically TikTok, really promoted content that was very high quality, very just like cut and beautiful and nice. And now that's completely shifting to just, people wanna see real people. Like I said before, like people wanna see you on the phone like they were FaceTiming you. So I think that's a huge part and would be such a help if you're looking to build a personal brand is really showing that like uncut, unfiltered side of you because because people are nosy. They want to see like behind the brand. They want to see what you look like when you wake up. And yeah, so I think it's definitely changed from like very high quality, high def content to now just like posts. Maybe not like everything, obviously there's still thought behind it, but a lot more of just that like spontaneity is like received well.

Yeah. And I use the word vulnerability a lot when I'm at my own portfolio of companies with founders that I mentor. It's what is it about you that's interesting? And people don't understand that their own story is unique, and you know it, you've lived it, and repeating it feels kind of weird. But to be able to share it and connect with other people in a genuine way, it's the best way to engage and getting a peek as to who you are. Where people can be really contrived and pretend to be someone that they're not, and people see through it now. It's so saturated. But I'm fascinated, and I read, going back to music, funny enough, but there was a research piece that I read, and it was talking about a band that filmed their film clips purely in portrait using their cell iPhone to be able to do the whole thing, stitching it together versus someone else that's spending $500,000 with like full production. And the irony in the whole thing is that people resonated more with the iPhone version of portrait style because there was a rawness to it and it was imperfect. And that's a product of now video conversations that we have. So having video calls, obviously now, so that relationship that you have with video, you can pick the difference. And I don't know if that's a passive thing that people now do where they just natively connect to it in a way just by nature of how it looks, like polished versus not.

Yeah, that I, I totally agree. I think that's something I am trying to lean back more into because I think when I first started and I was growing my accounts, it was all that very casual, like uncut. And then kind of as I took it more seriously, it kind of veered more into that like high-quality cut and polished thing. But then I'm, I'm just realizing from like feedback I get, like it The videos I post of me going out with my friends that I don't even think 2 seconds of do so much better than the ones that I spent an hour editing.

People want connection ultimately. They want to feel like that they know you and you've got the luxury and not by luck and you've worked hard at over a period of time, but being able to maintain who you are and share that experience allows people to connect with you way beyond the product as well. If you didn't have have your own personal brand and have a relationship with people, launching products would have been a lot harder, right?

Yeah, definitely. I think that's— we're seeing that more and more now. That's why so many influencers are starting brands, because it gives something people to connect to.

And being part of a community too. And again, going back to Founders, it's how do you find the loyal people that almost become your, like, informal ambassadors? I guarantee you've got people that are proactively just taking your stuff to their friends, sharing it because they're passionate about it. I've connected with you with your art and they're the champions on the ground that allow you to be much bigger than you could ever be by yourself.

Yeah, no, there's definitely a lot of people like that. I think it's, yeah, it's just, it stemmed from being like authentic and just sharing my life. And I think also it's so important to like message people back and build that community so people don't think they're just, because people send DMs all the time and I think a lot of influencers would just like ignore them, but I love responding to people because it feels like there's real people because sometimes you just feel feel like you're speaking into a void and there's no one behind the screen. But yeah, I think just like connecting with your community and like treating them like your friends is the most important thing.

In a world where the saturation of advertising and sales is coming at you just nonstop, right? The ability to have human connection that underpins that just changes the game completely.

Totally. Like every single time I meet someone someone in person or they'll come up to me or I'll see someone with my phone case, it is so surreal because I'm not touching the product before I'm sending it to people. So like I, I'll see the numbers of orders or I'll see the comments and whatever, but it just, it doesn't feel real. So like having that in-person or more tangible connection, even if it's just like a DM response, it makes like the world of a difference.

Absolutely. And as far as where you go to next, we were chatting briefly before, you've You've now also launching sunglasses. Is it category adjacent, obviously, as far as what you're doing? Is that something that you thought there was a gap, or is it people in your community seeing that what, what you're doing and being able to extend the way that you connect with them? Because it's not part of your art, right? It's a separate line.

It, it actually has to do a lot with music. Sunglasses are a huge part of house music culture, from the DJs or to wearing them to the crowd. Um, and I go to so many shows and I share that with my audience. And I also just saw, yeah, a gap in the market for more affordable sunglasses. I feel like you have sunglasses that are reaching $400 or Amazon $20 sunglasses. So I did see a gap, but I also saw a product that I knew my audience would resonate with cuz I, they were already liking the content that I was posting. And also with the phone cases, I have like sponsored house music shows with the SDH Paints brand. So I knew people would see that connection. And yeah, that's just something that like I kind of wanted to do as well.

It's fascinating. And I'm going to show my age here a little bit, but I'm okay with that. Growing up in the '90s, you were associated with certain types of things. So you were a punk kid, a metal kid, a skater, a surfer. Like there were various things and your, who you were was defined by what you were passionate about. Out. And like all of those cultures became almost diluted because people started collaborating and doing things. And it's reflective in music culture now as well. If you look at genres and genre bleed, like it's almost impossible to give a genre to certain songs now. Yeah, because they've got such broad influence. And what you're tapping into, which I love, is the ability of a community. And the house music community typically is pretty tight-knit if you're a diehard fan particularly, and there's people that you love. If you're just going to mainstream clubs, maybe not so. Yeah, but if you go into specific specific artists with certain shows. Like, music culture and music communities are so passionate, and they'll support things that are supporting them. And I spent a lot of time doing this kind of work because they're the people that will love it no matter what. But you have to do the right thing by them too. You can't be exploitative. So for me, I see a lot of lineage coming back from the '90s into now where that digital saturation goes back into physical space.

Especially with house music, there is that sort of of dynamic of just like such a tight-knit community. And I also think it's an industry that is growing so fast right now, especially with my generation. So yeah, that's definitely like, I knew that if I was gonna make a product in that kind of world, that it would do well because that community is just like so welcoming and that's the perfect place to do so.

And having something custom for that group of people and having spent a lot of time there and there's amazing documentary I saw at Tribeca Film Festival actually about the origins of house music, and it goes way back into Chicago. I think it's Chicago. Yeah, yeah, like late '70s, early '80s when hip-hop was starting to take off, and then this was another group of people finding instruments and just playing around and creating beats. And the house itself was named after the venue that started in Chicago. And that's like, I don't know if it could ever happen again, like in the sense of culture and community and building that out. It goes in waves, waves, things go away and come back again. I, I'm not sure if I'm missing anything big, but that changed the game as far as like house shows up everywhere across all sorts of genres. But the cultural movement behind it was almost bigger as far as how it brought people together.

Yeah, I think, I, I don't know. I think it's definitely, it's growing. So we'll see if something of that sort is like happening. But yeah, I mean, when I first started going to those types of shows, looking at it now, especially with just artists, especially from like Europe emerging in the States. Like I see how there's becoming like a new kind of wave of the love for house music and that kind of culture growing.

Yeah. And you, you see it with like techno bounced around the world from Detroit, Berlin, and each time it moved to a different city, everyone would have their own local take on what it was. So it had little subgenres under a main genre as well, which feels like what's happening now.

Yeah.

Defaulting back to music culture again, but I think it's really relevant as far as what you're doing in community and connection. To pull it back in from a business sense, right now you've got two things that you do, and from a creative perspective, but also your own product line. From a revenue perspective, within those two, do you think that you'll continue doing both? Do you think that they're— it's critical to have one, like, complement the other? Or do you think there's a time where you could focus purely on just one revenue stream?

I don't know. I think because I started my art brand, brand as simply a hobby, like that will always stay something that I will want to do. So I don't necessarily see SDH Paints evolving into more products and growing in that sense. I just simply wanna keep creating art and putting it out the way I'm putting it out. But yeah, with the sunglasses, very early stages, so we'll see how they evolve. But as of right now, I don't think it's necessarily necessary to focus on one or the other. I think right now, because they are kind of like separated, but also help each other in a sense. I just want to continue growing them.

Is there a point? And it's so topical in founder life is that almost the default is that fundraising and scaling. Do you ever think about going bigger and bringing on co-founders or having a team of people and multiplying what you're doing and maybe even getting investment? Have you ever had that conversation?

Yeah, that's actually something I I've been starting to think about more recently. I think like I am just very confident in the art, but I don't think, I don't know, I think there's, if there was the right like investment opportunity or co-founder opportunity, then I would definitely take it cuz I do like believe in the product and I think it could do big things. But that's definitely not something that I like had always envisioned. So yeah, I'm just starting to think about all of that.

It's interesting. I'm doing a podcast recording with Eric Ries who wrote The Lean Startup. He's got a new book coming out in May, and his first book was like 10 years ago, but it was seminal and almost still a default for a lot of founders to read. But he was talking about how you build a business effectively. Ultimately, it was the theme. And the new one is more focused around how do you create a business that has values and purpose and mission once it gets really big? Because once it starts scaling and making it quiet, you might go public with with it, it all of a sudden becomes a commercial entity. So not that the soul grows out of it, but it looks very different to what it did. Like, for you, I would assume as an artist first and not trying to turn it into something that is a business, thinking about that long term, have you even considered, like, how do you retain the integrity of being an artist first and scaling that in a way that still has, like, that connection and that sense of community?

Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's, that's why I have never really thought about investment or growing in that sense before, just because like you said, like, I knew and I know that brands kind of lose that integrity. But yeah, I don't know, I think it would just have to be the right fit. And I think I am very content with like my community and how my art's being perceived and how I'm putting it out. That, yeah, I do kind of think about how that could change if it got bigger, but I think, I don't know, I think I wouldn't, I would say this now obviously, but like I wouldn't let it get to that point. Yeah, I don't know. I think it would just have to be the right fit. I, I kind of like the like nicheness of it in a sense. Like I think brands do very well if they have a strong community and it's a smaller community versus a large community and they're not actually in tune with the product and really resonate with it. So I don't know, I, I kind of like having the like smaller brand aspect and just like the smaller community.

And you see it with global brands, and there's not many that have done it well. I, I'd look at someone like Red Bull, and the reason that they've managed to stay true to who they are is because they're still independently owned. And someone like a Nike, who's on the stock exchange, all of a sudden you've got a whole bunch of people that have financial interest in what you're doing. So the numbers mean more than the culture. Not to say they don't have culture, but they've definitely lost their way as far as at the grassroots of who they were. So there's some really mainstream lessons out there in the sense of like where you could go and the things you need to be aware of. But yeah, and like the breadth of products and retaining you as an artist, being able to paint and create and having shorter runs of certain things, but having a very open, like, this is me as an artist, but it's been interpreted and created somewhere else, but you're still the heart of what you're doing. And it's a fine line because people transact. And once they start transacting, all of a sudden it doesn't feel like it's the heart of what you started.

No, definitely. That's why That's why, like, I'm, I don't really envision that in the future, like a massive company. I kind of like just keeping it myself. And yeah, we'll see.

For you, like, you're earning a good living now doing what you're doing. There was a point at university, and I think it's really important to call out, where you were starting to get busy, you were earning money, but you're still studying and you wanted to be a student. Can you tell us what you did in your last year with the business?

Yeah. So because I started my business pretty unintentionally, uh, it wasn't a typical 9-to-5 job obviously, but for basically my entire college experience I was working and that is 7 days a week. That's on weekends. And obviously it looks very different than typical sitting at a desk, whatever, but it was still like making content and thinking of ideas and promoting all the time. And I got to a point my second semester senior year where I kind of stopped resonating with the brand and I felt very creatively uninspired. Um, I think just from growing out of kind of like the art style that I used to have and also just kind of being burnt out from having like worked those like last couple years and not really just been a college student. And then simultaneously I also had this pressure of like, I was about to graduate, I need to make sure this can be my job and I don't need to go and get a job. So I think that pressure mixed mixed with me feeling very uninspired just kind of led me to a wall. Like I didn't know what to do. And, uh, I think because I was earning money and I had that luxury of being able to take a step back, I was like, if I'm ever gonna take a step back, I need to do it now and figure out what I wanna do and how I wanna move forward. Um, so I did that my second semester senior year. I, I think I put out like 3 pieces over the course of 6 or so months, which is not a lot for me. And I, the business still operated as normal, but I think I mentally took a step back and I think it was the best thing I could have done because I came back to it last fall feeling a lot more inspired. I feel like directionally the brand's marketing and how I wanted to move forward with it was a lot more clear to me. So yeah, and now I think it's, it's becoming more into this like new version and new era of my life and reflecting that more.

It's so emotionally mature. You are on, on what you did. And I see it, and I had a recent interview with a, a Xaver Lehmann. He's German. He had a $60 million exit, and in the middle of the closing part of that exit, his mum died right in the middle of it. And it was, the conversation was really emotional, but he had months afterwards where he was burnt out from running the business, going through the exit and the sale, and he ended up going to Sri Lanka. And I think he had 3 months basically rebuilding himself. Because he was so broke from that experience. And founders are really bad at working just too much to be able to do it. So to pause and, and take the, the mature approach about to do that, I respect it a lot, which is why I wanted to make sure we talked to that.

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I think it definitely was something that I was thinking about for a long time before I really just decided to tell myself, okay, you need to do this. But yeah, I just think, cause it's specifically for me, it being my art, if I wasn't resonating with it, and also me having this community and being the personality in front of the brand, it was so important that I just like, I wasn't putting out anything that was inauthentic. Cause I feel like everyone could tell and I could tell, and then I just hated it.

And no one, like you first and foremost, wants to see Sophie breaking down like across social channels. Right. And as I said before, I'd love to reiterate this, like being vulnerable is important. Important is you're not going to have a good day every day. It's actually healthy to share the days where you feel flat and normalizing that we're all human. And you took an even bigger step to do that as well. So really great leadership at such a young age.

Thank you. Yeah. And I feel lucky. I was very, like, I shared that with my community and I posted about it and it was received very well. And I think people respected that. Like, they weren't mad that I was taking a step back and they wouldn't see anything new from me. They were just like, okay, like, we trust her. She'll come out with something better when she's like feeling inspired. Love.

So beautiful. And it's amazing again, the power of people that feel like they know you and, and give you the credit that this is not something you're doing selfishly. I think there's two really positive things there. One, having a moment in time at university that you'll never have again. And then two, from a business standpoint, being able to step back and acknowledge and understand what are the things about it that you're passionate about? What are the things that give you purpose going forward and using that confidence to be a catalyst in what you do next.

Yeah.

Amazing. Sophie de Horne, thank you so much for joining today. It's TH Paints. Check it out. It is amazing art and I'm excited for the next chapter as far as what you're creating.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

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