Marisa Thalberg and Steven Wolfe Pereira

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Hello and welcome to season 2 of the Future Legends of Advertising podcast on iHeart, featuring the hottest up-and-coming stars in advertising as well as the biggest legends in the game.

In this series, we explore the future of the advertising industry through never-before-heard conversations between those who created it and those who are shaping its future.

We're your hosts, Hayley Romer.

And Ross Martin. Now let's meet the legends. All right, everybody, welcome to this very special episode of the Future Legends of Advertising podcast. You know, I wanted to bring 2 of my favorite marketers onto the podcast, they were not available. So I did get Marissa Thalberg and Steven Wolfe Pereira. They are obviously icons, friends of the American Advertising Federation. They are also my second favorite podcast hosts. They, they do the second best podcast in advertising. I would like to welcome you both to the, to the podcast, Marissa and Steven. It's a bonus podcast episode. I gotta say, I'm a huge fan of your podcast, so that's why I wanted to have you on our podcast. And for those who have not listened to it, I can't imagine anybody hasn't. It's called Brand New. You just wrapped up season 1. How are you guys feeling about your podcast?

Well, as the second most popular podcast in marketing after yours, uh, I feel like we still have work to do there, Marissa. We gotta get, get to number 1, right? That's the goal. We gotta dethrone Ross.

For those who haven't ever experienced the beauty of your podcast, can you please talk about what it is and how it goes?

Sure. So, look, there are a bunch of podcasts, clearly some in this industry better than others. And as we thought about creating our own humble submission to the annals of marketing podcast Hall of Fame, see Hall of Fame, we just thought that there isn't a lot of real, let's call it coffee conversation from 2 C-level practitioners who are operators, who are in brands, who are in businesses. And as you said, Steven and I have had a longstanding friendship. And I think what makes for our chemistry is that there's a lot that we share, including genuine passion for people, genuine passion for our craft, genuine passion for this industry. But we also have these really different perspectives from the different experiences that we've had. And The different places that our hearts take us in terms of where we champion personally, as well as professionally. And so, being able to bring those both personal and professional perspectives to really help anyone who's rising in the industry, anyone who's in the industry deeply and wants to just dial into conversation, and frankly, even people who are outside of the industry and just find this stuff really interesting.

Well, I find you guys both to be very good hosts of your podcast, not because, not because either of you are talented individually, but because—

You really did that like a Netflix special, dude. Honestly, is this like Cranky Anchors? Is this like an episode of Pomp?

I feel like it's, it's a roast.

No, because, because what I like about what you guys do, and, and Haley and I as, as co-hosts of our podcast have struggled with this, is you don't always agree with each other. Like you actually sometimes really are on opposite sides of an issue. You try to find common ground, but I appreciate the genuine, like real conversations that you guys get into. Do you feel that way?

I think that's really the benefit. And, and look, we, we really debated this because, you know, Marissa and I have been friends for a long time and it's like, again, does the world really need another podcast? It was less about that. I think it was more like, how do you actually have real conversation? Where you could really provide that lens and, you know, how it is in any type of company, in any type of marriage, in any type of friendship, you're not gonna agree all the time. And I think the best relationships are the ones where you could be really honest. So I feel that when Marissa says something and I'm like, you know, I just don't agree with that, 'cause I've either had a very different experience, you know, maybe more entrepreneurial or worked in tech or in different industries, or I just haven't had the experiences that she's had, I'm gonna provide my own unique worldview. And that's obviously colored from all the different industries or, you know, maybe, you know, being Latino and growing up differently or just whatever it is. But I feel like we owe it to each other to always keep each other, you know, just kind of held accountable to our true perspective, that authentic perspective. And I feel like people have really embraced that 'cause, you know, there's just like so much BS out there. People are always like trying to hawk something in some of these podcasts. And we really aren't trying to sell a service, a product. Like, we just want to help people kind of be the best versions of themselves and unlock their potential.

And, you know, I don't think it's so much about whether we agree or disagree, although that comes up. I think it's when you have a genuine conversation with people and you prompt each other to think differently and challenge each other. So, for me, that's more like where it gets juicy and interesting. And we don't, For better or for worse, we don't really rehearse it. I mean, it is just, we figure out what we want to talk about, who we want to bring on. So if we have a guest, it's not because this episode is an interview. It's always because we want to talk about what's pressing right now across not just marketing, but media and technology and entertainment and advertising. And when we get into it, it's kind of interesting what happens. And you've been genuinely, Ross, so supportive. And we know that you wouldn't give us false flattery, as evidenced by this podcast episode so far. Um, so it— but it's like, it's funny because we wind up— we are just naturally authentic people, and that's who we are. So that's not an act, but the conversation becomes so genuinely bouncing off of each other, and I think prompting each other through ideas.

You two cover so many topics in season 1. And I guess I would ask each of you the same question here, which would be, what's the one, the one that was like really the most fiery that kind of got you like, and you just, you could talk about it a lot more.

I thought the one where we actually had the CEO of Semaphore, I thought that one was really meaty to me just because I just love Justin as an entrepreneur, as a CEO, but really he has such a unique worldview. And I studied international relations and economic development in undergrad. And he's kind of worked at all these esteemed journalistic iconic places. I just wanted to kind of go deep into how he thinks about the way the world is viewing news, building a brand new media company from scratch. I could have just talked to him all day long. And I think just, we have to be careful to our listeners and not kind of go off on all these tangents, but I could have just talked to him forever.

The one that I felt most nervous about afterwards is probably the one that I would then cite as being the most interesting, because I, when we talked about what it means for companies and brands in terms of promises they've made to their employees about returning to work and that whole thing, I mean, that was putting a brand new lens, if you will, on a topic and, you know, trying to stay certainly very responsible with our own corporate perspectives. And toggling, genuinely toggling in a way that I don't think everyone can understand what it is to understand that responsibility to do what's right for your company when you're in the C-suite, but also feeling like genuine frustration for fellow employees, people who were directly promised something, and then that promise was reneged. Because I feel like as marketers, that's one of the most important stewarding responsibilities we have is To not flagrantly promise things that then you go back on because it's all, when we say trust, that, that's real and trust extends to your employees, not just your consumers. So that one riled something for me, I guess.

Well, it did for everyone and me too. I remember that, that episode. I don't think it's finished. I don't think we're done with that conversation at all.

Yeah, we're not.

Since you guys, for your podcast, Brand New on iHeartMedia, it's a super, as you say, inside honest look at our industry. And my next question for you is this, and I'm asking you to be just as honest as you are on your own podcast. If you could snap your fingers and change one thing about our industry, what would it be?

It's a great question. I really would wish every single marketer to not have fear. I think that marketers are constantly operating from a place of fear, fear of losing their job, fear of failing, fear of, you know, kind of stepping on a landmine, a cultural landmine. I think there's a lot of fear in the industry and, you know, there are a lot of challenges in the industry moving forward because of technology and AI and all the things that we know about. But I feel like a lot of folks are operating out of fear and I wish they would be able to kind of turn it into this incredible courage. and boldness and braveness in the role. And, you know, almost like, I don't care what people are gonna think. I don't care what, you know, the C-suite's gonna think. I'm gonna do the right thing for the customer. I'm the champion of the customer, and I'm gonna drive creativity.

Wow. I love that answer. So, here's what I'll do. I'll complement that answer and say, I love that. And what I would like to snap my fingers is have the rest of the C-suite, boards, whatever, not instill so much fear because there's a genuine support and trust and faith in the power of what great marketers and marketing can do to propel business. And that it's not in this constant short-termism, which so many businesses have because of quarterly earnings or other investor expectations. And, you know, the pressure in a way that data has created that everything's immediately measurable and just getting back to genuinely a belief that there is art and science in it and that there is art and commerce. And I don't mean to be trite when I say it. I think that's what our business is about. And I think consumers are smart. And when we delight them in ways they know they're being marketed to, but when they know they're being marketed to and they delight to it, good stuff happens. So—

Totally.

I just kind of feel like the part that we all love is not only empowering to us but empowered by the people that hire us.

Right on.

You guys, best answers. Yeah, for sure. Let's close with this. There's a lot of people who listen to our podcast who are younger, coming up, really with good reason, look up to the two of you and would really wanna hear this answer from both of you, which is, what is the one thing you want the next generation of marketers to know?

You know, I didn't study marketing when I went to college because I went to a great liberal arts college. And I remember thinking then, you know, I think that's going to be okay because I have a feeling the nature of this is going to keep changing. And so probably the fact that I was taught how to think and analyze and communicate and write, and those are probably going to be the most important skills. And boy, I think that's in some ways more important than ever. There's going to be some serious vocational needs that we're going to have in this industry. I mean, real, really understanding of how to apply AI and data science and technology. I mean, we know those are fast-growing areas, but I know that we don't know what our field's going to look like in a few years. And so, for the next generation, maybe it ties to Steven's answer, is be open and be fearless enough, but also be humble and adaptable that you're going to be entering a world That's as fast and dynamic and ever-changing as the world at large is. And if you embrace that, you're gonna be able to grow with it. You're gonna do really well.

I echo that, but I, I think I would answer it a little bit differently, Ross, in terms of being a little bit more provocative. I actually don't think it's about marketing. I think marketers need to get out of the marketing, you know, echo chamber. And I would say, learn about business. Right? I mean, I think you are successful, Ross, because you understand business, right? You were doing marketing, you were doing creative things, but then you like created your own company and then you merged it with another company. And I think it is a disservice that if you are not understanding how you truly operate a business and understand all the functions, starting with finance, right? Like you are not gonna have any credibility once you rise up through the ranks and get into the C-suite. You will reach a ceiling. If you don't understand what a P&L is, if you don't understand what a balance sheet is, if you don't understand what you do directly ties to the rest of the business, then you're really not going to be successful because marketing isn't this, you know, kind of silo, the standalone thing. It has to serve the business.

Yeah.

But you know what? You can learn those things too. And I think, you know, the beautiful alchemy of our world is that people should have different talents and skill sets. So it's okay that we, we should have some more of the artists and the creators and the brilliant finance people and just be open to learning about what each other does.

There is nothing wrong with being an artist. Again, my co-founder went to Pratt, right? But she's now the CEO of my startup, right? And so she is both the art and the business and the science. So I, again, I think you need both. It's an and, Marissa.

I'm sitting here listening to you and I forgot that This was my podcast, and I thought, I thought I was like watching your podcast. So I love that. Thank you. Thank you both for joining us. Haley Romer says hi. And on behalf of the AAF and iHeart, I want to remind everyone, if you want a really good podcast that's actually real, real, that's this podcast, Brand New. It's on iHeart and wherever you listen to podcasts. It's their podcast. It's called Brand New. Marissa, Steven. You're two of the very, very best, very, very best, and I appreciate you both so much. Thanks for joining us today.

Gracias, hermano. Appreciate it.

Thanks for having us.

Well, that does it for this episode of the Future Legends of Advertising podcast on iHeart.

I'm Ross Martin, and I'm Haley Romer, and thank you for listening. We'll be back with another episode before you know it, and for more information on the American Advertising Federation, go to aaf.org.

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.