[Leadership] From sales to starting a company with Matej Metkovic

I think for me, how to position and deal with customers early on because you won't have people who are interested and who want to participate in what you're building. But the main thing is like managing expectations because the product is still not at the stage where we'd like to be and we'll definitely get there and we move faster than some of the bigger companies. But it's really managing expectations early on to get the early adopters, because low people are followers and the early adopters are the one that you kind of are grateful the most. And then for them, you need to really manage expectations because that sets the experience for them for the future as well.

Hey, we got another fun episode for you here today. This one is a little different in the sense where we've got a rep who made the transition to start his own company, so started a company. Wasteless bio. Pretty, pretty exciting. We talk about a lot of different things, but we'll sit out to you, Nate.

I think there was a general theme that stood out for me, is that often when we're making change, it's a bit of a risk. And definitely from his story at the beginning, right, that's a bit of a risk. Whether it's changing job, like starting a company, going into management, moving from sales, whatever it may be, that change always feels like a risk and often people step away from it. But I think if you lean into it and just focus on the activity of doing it, you can actually come out well. At the very least, you're going to come out with some great learnings. Right. That you apply. And I think there's a theme that goes through this and Mate's approach that there was a lot of education around that and specific skills that he said were useful as a rep in making some of those transitions.

Yeah, 100%. And I think even just like a couple of the little things we chatted through are useful for reps, sales leaders, anybody that's listening. So hopefully you all enjoy it. And yeah, if you want any other details to follow the company, you know, we'll throw them in the description. As always, should we dive in?

Let's dive right in.

I know you have listened to a number of episodes of the podcast. You know the question we always ask everybody to start, which is give us a crazy or funny story that's happened in your career.

I think I was thinking about this a lot, but I couldn't find maybe the right one. So I think the best one would be how I transitioned from the lab to the commercial side and I knew I wanted to do something different. I applied to many different jobs, probably around 100 and there was one called account manager and I didn't know what that means at all. So I applied and I got through the first round somehow on the phone call and then the last round was the third where I had to do market penetration. I had no idea what that means as well. So I basically in one weekend I spent 30 something hours to watched 5 hours of videos and read probably 400 of pages. And then when I came on, on, on the call, they thought actually I knew something and, and, and I end up getting the job against the person who probably has 10 years more experience than me. So probably they know, they, they thought I knew more. But I, I said, you know, it's, it's all in my hand and I, I could do as much as I can to, you know, I cannot change what happened. I can change what.

I tell you what though, I'd imagine by reading that much and learning that much that quickly, you may have done more learning than some reps that do role they've got on the job learning, but they don't always go looking for those additional resources. So yeah, it probably not practical but it probably came across that you knew your stuff.

Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's really was kind of like putting yourself in the fire and you know, either you swim or not. But in the end I had absolutely.

Insights and so like you were going through this process, you didn't know what the role was. Like when did you figure out like oh shit, I'm in sales now or I'm going to be like in sales.

When I, when I first started the, the job. So that was something I did in the job. Even through the interview when I read all these descriptions, job descriptions, they're so like vague. I didn't know what to expect at the time. There was no AI to kind of help me out. So, so I was like, you know what, I'll, I'll, I'll do my best and, and, and see what happens. I, I really knew I wanted to do something different from the lab. And yeah, and I think I thought, you know, in sales you have power to do more in short amount time frame than maybe in the lab because it takes time for experiments and everything. But yeah, so it's kind of like only later I realized how little I knew about the role and everything. I had zero knowledge because I was usually in the lab in R and D, so I never really dealt with reps. So I wasn't even aware of them too much or I didn't. Yeah. Realized many of their emails.

One of my favorite quotes is I think it's Richard Branson who said it and he says if someone offers you a chance opportunity you don't know how to do, say yes and work out how to do it. And I think that's probably one of the best examples I've ever heard of following.

Yeah seriously for me as well I think it's. It was quite interesting the whole process as well.

Well he. Well now you have started a new venture, right. Well maybe give us a little background on that transition. So you made that transition from lab into sales without knowing what the heck you're getting into. Did you do the same thing again now or what? What's going on now?

So I came from the lab to the commercial and then to the venture. We're doing raceless biobuilding. When I was in the lab I saw how much things end up being in the delivery fridge never gets used and this is brand new products going to waste. Then when I was a commercial side people overproduce and never manage to sell because they have certain expiry date they guarantee to customers and then if it's not within that expiry they usually scrapped off. And I thought why there isn't a single place where this can be accessed for affordable price, avoid waste and be more sustainable. So that's how the whole idea came about to make wasteless bio. It's kind of. I think the life science market is where the closure before vinted. So right now we're trying to make a channel like a marketplace for that. When I moved again I think it's a little bit the same. We are learning as we go a lot but I knew at the time that if we want to do this right I need to go and dedicate all my time because building something is very hard and you want to keep focus on a single thing. You know every, every job usually I left it was something on good terms. I enjoyed my time there but I think this was the right thing to do at the time. And really there's just. You can never be ready because there's so much to learn that you don't see Paul in a different role. But yeah, so that's how everything came about.

Yeah. What are some of those things that like you know, you were just you, you're in a commercial role, you're in a sales role like and then you're like okay, I have this idea, I kind of want to go start this company around it. I mean, that's just not an easy leap for most people to make. Right. I'm sure, you know, there was maybe like a trigger point that happened. You go and you do it. You're like, oh my God, did I make a mistake? Yeah. Like we'd love to hear some of that background.

I think it all started with the word document writing ID on paper. And we still saved that, I think two years ago or more. And then I was discussing with now my partners and they said why not? And that's really like how it started. So you have to build something with nothing to show some traction and build it more. So we just tried to kind of use a little bit of a savings to show that it makes sense. And then later we just keep expanding from there. But I think, you know, you don't. I think Hormozi likes to say a lot of these things where it's ignorant optimism, where like uninformed optimism. So that was the early stage. You don't know how complex things are. But I think the approach should be always a problem has a solution. It's all about trying to solve it. And it's easier to do it with good team. I think having a co founder, one or two, I would say it's recommended, especially if you don't have domain expertise. So yeah, depends who your co founder is.

Sometimes it's a. Yeah.

When your co founder like drags you down and slows you down getting. Yeah, yeah, it's awful.

And, and especially because, you know, we are building a kind of tech platform in the life science industry. So I'm coming from the life science side. But then tech is something that, you know, you haven't done much before. So there's definitely a lot of learning there to be had as well. And. But yeah, it's all about kind of like believing in the idea first and then trying to, to do step by step. That's how I approached it.

Yeah. I think something to follow along for now because I think obviously we've started something too is you, you at the beginning. I think what stops a lot of people making that leap is they're like, oh well, this is a new thing. So I'm going to go over here and know nothing.

Right.

But we've all got transferable skills and education from what we've done. That means we're not starting from zero. So as a rep that's transitioned into a business owner and entrepreneur, however we phrase it now. What are some of those skills that you think were key that you took.

With you, I think for me, how to position and deal with customers early on, because you won't have people who are interested and who want to participate in what you're building. But the main thing is like managing expectations, because the product is still not at the stage where we would like to be, and we'll definitely get there and we move faster than some of the bigger companies. But it's really managing expectations early on to get the early adopters, because low people are followers and the early adopters are the one that you kind of are grateful the most. And then for them, you need to really manage expectations because that sets the experience for them for the future as well. So that's, I think, the one. And I think, you know, if you're in sales, speaking to investors and trying to sell the idea, I think it helps. So I think that's something that is really a positive thing. And then also you tend to develop a network of people you can reach out eventually. So every sales role you're in, if you're doing, you know, be good and do good, it will come back. Because now when you have your venture, you might ask people, hey, do you know, someone can introduce me? Can you give me even a feedback? And I really am grateful for people who took their time to review our platform to give me a feedback. And I think those are good things that you can draw from the commercial side before you venture into maybe your own venture.

Yeah. But also, I think the other parallel that you just said too is even if you go from role to role at different companies in the same sales, sales job like you're going to have, this industry is so small. Right. So you're going to probably end up working with similar customers, similar people. And so if you build up that network, you'll be able to like, and they know that you're a good, reliable person that they can turn to for more than just like, hey, here's our products and services. Which one do you want to buy? You're going to be able to leverage that network and future roles, future jobs, even if it's just for, like, introductions to people. You know, I think it's so it's. It's really important, I think, to think about that. Even if it's not starting your own company, it's just even, even going from sales role to sales role.

And I think that's why it's very much easier for some people to build a second company. Because when you meet a good person in their domain, be that marketing or product development or Whatever. Like you want to stick with those people forever as long as you can. I think you want to reward, you want to bring them business. I want to buy from them. Not only sell to you know, of course you're doing selling but I also want to buy and work with people that actually have reliable reliability and know their job. So I think having a group people in different domains is something that is very beneficial in that work work.

And like Harrison said, I haven't been to trust you. When I was a sole rep, the one thing that made me happier was happy as a, as a po which we all know how happy that makes a rep because it's commission based is when I heard somebody say things like oh I'm introd you to Nick. He's helped me before. He can help you because that or like next that guy to help me do X. Because when you've done that process and they see you as the person that helped, everything's so much easier.

Social, social proof is a big thing as well. Especially nowadays where everybody's trying to kind of self promote recommendation from someone that that his word is is has merit then I think that's very power powerful and I think that's very why we.

Talk about referrals all the time. I mean a lot of our business that we have comes from referrals or just from content like this that we put out or we're talking with you and you know, you make a comment in the pre show where you're talking about how you love our newsletter and all that kind of good stuff, right. Like things like that. But you put that goodwill out there, right and or you, you get those referrals and that is going to be those sales processes are going to go much faster, much smoother and it's just another reason to always talk about this stuff, always be asking for referrals. Even if somebody I don't know doesn't move forward with your product or service, ask them who they know because they might still be willing to refer you to somebody else. So there's all sorts of ways and opportunities to ask for this stuff and.

I think that you guys are doing a great job. I mean I've listened to I think all of the podcasts and what I do is kind of the newsletter is really useful and I have my team and I really on onboarding process. I use the podcast in the first two weeks where there might be some gaps of things to do to give them to listen. I think it's a. Especially if they're transitioning from the lab based role into commercial. I think it's really interesting to listen to different people, their experiences. So I think it's, I mean that's how you kind of, you know, you give stuff of value and then eventually it comes back.

That's how the weirdest thing is when I'll get on a call with somebody and they'll be like, oh, I just listened to like 10 episod episodes of the podcast. It's weird like talking to you now and I'm like, I'm like, I'm not like, we are not that interesting. We're not that famous where we should be getting that type of feedback. But it's obviously great. But I guess that also can be tied into a similar concept of if you put the content out there and you put information out into the world, your founder now you should probably be doing a lot of this stuff too, right? How can you be putting your brand, your company out so then people come to you and reps can do the same thing. Whereas if you put out interesting content, interesting resources, people are ultimately going to be attracted to that and then you're going to get those types of people to come to you. In a world where it's harder to stand out, if you're able to do that, you're going to be able to then attract the right people that you are going to ultimately hopefully close a lot faster too.

One thing is key though is that don't do it just we're doing content, hopefully getting business, but don't do it just for that. Enjoy what you're putting out there. Try and add value because there's so much content out there. The stuff that's there just to drive leads and not add value is so see through. So do something that you're, you're. Yeah.

And do it for an extended period. Like, I mean it takes a while to get traction on this stuff. Like, I mean there's still so many people I know that we just like they probably have no idea who we are. Like we have a decent following but like we're not that big and there's so many people that we still just haven't reached. We've been doing this stuff consistently for two years, you know, so takes the game. We should know.

We are idiot.

Yeah, I, I think, you know, for, for this I tell to my team as well, like what do you read? Take a moment, stay back and why do you read that? And you should try and share something like this. I think we have to be useful and add value. That's the main thing and I think LinkedIn did is full of just copy paste things and then like where is this came from? What is the first principle thinking over there? So I also try to kind of engage more to really for people to make aware that we exist because what you offer is really kind of you know the best deals you can get in the life science market because the products that are just over ordered extra and just sitting on a shelf people want to donate or recover some of the cost and do a good thing and make things more sustainable. But but yes I think the main thing for in terms of value is really to on LinkedIn to provide and that's I think that yeah it takes time and consistency which is the main thing and this is also a characteristic of any company. You have to be consistent what you do.

Let's take a quick break from the podcast to talk about what we have going on over here at Succession. We work with 40 plus life science sales companies to help them more opportunities and close more deals. We provide a range of services to support your sales growth. So whether it's increasing top of funnel opportunities with done for you lead generation in person or virtual sales training reinforced by personalized training plans, recruiting top sales talent or just building custom AI workflows to help make your team more efficient focused on selling. So if you're ready to transform your sales strategy, visit Succession bio and schedule a call with Nick and I and we'll see how we can support you. Okay. So Ben, why don't we make a quick transition here, kind of talk through. Now that you're in this new role, leading a team, you've got a team. Now that you're managing, what are some of the maybe newer challenges? I think you were at a slightly more established company previously, so it's like you're probably facing newer sales challenges now where people have no idea who you are. Not at all. It's like how do you kind of balance or kind of go through these different challenges?

The new role to start first from the team is we have to move fast and do as best a job as you can. So it really comes to prioritization. So how do we set up goals each week? And we try to deliver and prioritize because you cannot do everything. So I think it's really, it is a, you know, early stage, early stage company but you have to do a lot. So. But I also want my team to enjoy the work they're doing and really, you know, if they're there, I think they also believe in the mission that we are doing. So I think it's really the managing of the workload, which is kind of the main thing, and making sure what is manageable, what is not. So we don't have any false expectations. I think that's the main thing about managers where there's lack of visibility and expectations can be wrong. And I really try to kind of, but it's always a battle, you know, what's possible and what needs to be done. So I think that's number one. And then the second thing is like good word really is important. So referrals, as you said, is making sure that the customer service even this early on is on a high level. So even if the order is running late or things like that, we over communicate in certain areas for them to understand. Because if I don't know a truck had an accident, then somebody understands, okay, something really bad happened and not just oh, the order is late. So we try to give them more color to understand. And I think really managing expectations and trying to deliver, you know, the best service you can, I think is very important for people sharing the good word because then this gives you a bigger momentum as well as the kind of standard things around LinkedIn and such.

Yeah, I love that like kind of the transparency side of things because a lot of companies today try and like gatekeep some of that information or they don't try and share all of the details or I don't know, maybe they don't even give their support reps access to that type of information or they're just told to send these templates around. And so I think there's a really cool aspect that you can differentiate yourself on the customer service, customer experience that you can provide. And I think that's such an interesting way to differentiate today. Whereas I think a lot of companies are moving towards AI based support. How can we automate things? I think there's just this need for this. I just need to talk to a human being and ask a damn question and get that question answered by a human being that can actually look into this for me. So I think there's a really interesting opportunity for a lot of these companies. But it seems that everybody's trying to go the way of efficiency and automation when it comes to support.

And you know, when you come from a big company you see all the pain points that you don't have power to change. And now in this role you have the power. And I really want to make sure when I get the feedback that I implemented and I think one of the things I want to mention is the vrc, the voice of customer. This is probably the most important thing you can have. And there's no communication from the reps to the product managers what the customer is saying about the product. It's harder to make product market fit in the early stages, but then it's also hard to develop a new product which will hit the growth miles that the company has. And in most cases it's someone thinking the product might be good and it's not guided from the market. And this is something that I think it's, it's very important for people to have in place the voice of customer and to listen to the customers.

Yeah, I think the, the open transparency communication as well and getting that voice a customer and also the transparency. Two things. One thing I've seen companies do is try to be transparent. So they're only transparent when they can use an excuse. So let's say things are going catastrophically wrong. Oh, the lorry is broken down. Right. But because you've never had transparency before, you're like, oh, that's convenient. But if the transparency goes to, we hired a new person during their training, they made a mistake, I'm sorry, it's delayed. So that's on us. And you're transparent. Actually, honestly, throughout I think you get more credibility. And then when you do say the lorry's broken down or okay, well that's fair. Told me when it was. Therefore they're telling me when it's not there for. You have to. The transparency has to be actual transparency, not faux transparency.

And it becomes a challenge at scale on certain things, of course. And that's why we want to automate human lifestyles such as generate a quote or things like that. Sometimes you don't want to speak to a rep. Like sometimes people tell you no meeting, no quote. And it's like what value do you provide? That's. I think it's a tricky thing. So really certain things where you don't need human interaction, maybe you just give them an easy access to what they need and then for other things. Yes. Like be there for them.

It's wild to me that people don't like give pricing quotes readily available or like they gatekeep it. Yeah, it's just mind blowing. That still sort of happens. I think the only reason I could kind of see that is if you have something that's like really expensive and it's maybe a little bit more customized than people would want, or it's you have some product, you have some service where it's like truly like customized but like man, if it's like software or something that's like pretty standardized and pretty straightforward. Yeah. I feel like a lot of companies gatekeep this stuff and it's like just put it out there. It'll also help you qualify leads better. It's like if the price is too high for somebody, you probably don't want to be talking to them. Might as well just get that out of the way early on.

And I think on the. You should make your product seem like it's a bargain but still you have a margin. So it's such a value add that it's an easy thing. Nobody wants to be in a position pushing a sale. I think everybody wants to be in a position where people actually want the product. You found the person who might want it and then it's kind of you're actually helping them. And I think that's what we are trying to do with Aces Bio because you can build a lab for 80% less and why wouldn't you? So it's something like it's a really clear and simple value proposition that we tried to come across. But again most people don't know about us yet and that's what we're trying to change as well. So that's.

Yeah.

You don't want to be the one pushing things down.

I like that. Build a lab for 80% less as your slogan. Right. That's pretty.

Yeah.

With a pricing thing. I think the main reason I've watched people try to gatekeep the pricing is that they think if I can just get them interested enough they'll pay the money. But like you get. I'm really interested in a 20 million pound house. I'm already interested. Right. You don't need to do anything. I just don't have the money to buy it.

You will, you will have many, many meetings where you will waste time because they don't have a budget. So they are. Everybody has a big wish list. Even we get from the labs big wishlist that you can help them source for cheaper. But then I spoke with a university in Croatia where I'm from and they take at least a month for when they're interested for a PO to be raised. And it all depends on a couple of signature which are from people not even related to the lab. So even if they're super interested, it takes a long time for a PO to be raised at all and not to mention if they have to discuss multiple times. So it just shows how our process in Life sizes tend to be long.

Especially too if they have to go get grant funding and stuff, it can be even longer capex stuff. Heck, even for services, sometimes if it's over a certain dollar value, they got to go get three quotes and then that just wastes time. And then we run into this all the time in our training. We'll talk to companies and they'll be like, yeah, people come to us and they request a quote and so it's like we fill out this long RFP request for proposal and then all of a sudden like they just like wasted the time and they never hear from them again. It's because like they were one of the three quotes that they had to just go and get right. It's like, yeah, it's a challenge.

That's what the difference between I think US and Europe. And I think the difficulties and challenges scaling different regions in Europe. They'll have 12 questions before they put a PO in us. They just place a credit card for most things and the lab managers can use credit cards more often than in Europe. And it just shows, you know, I think in the US they'll just order something from a website that could be a fake website, but they just have more faith and different way of doing things and they're more open to new.

Ideas and adopting even changes within Europe too. Right. Like different countries within Europe also purchase and act completely differently.

Yeah.

And so I think I also with the current market has actually it's still the same. Like the differences are the same, but the current market has changed. Where that threshold is who's allowed to use the credit card. And I've seen $20,000 service deals, which is not a huge amount in companies that are like five and like 2,000 people, big companies. And that 20K deal is getting signed by the CSO. And you're like, why? Why are they involved? But I think that's because everyone's so budget conscious at the moment that no one wants the responsibility even if they could have it.

Yeah, I think the budgets are very tough. I think if you look at the uk, there hasn't been IPO for like over two years. So really the capital markets are quite tight. And then speaking of go to market strategy, so when you ask go to market what country where, because like some things is done more person to person, some things you can do cold outreach and video call, it really varies. And what language do you have to speak also helps in Europe.

That is true. And as a American who only speaks one language makes it a little bit harder Although now with AI, we'll be able to in real time use translation to have a.

Has it on my phone already.

Yeah.

Who needs to duolingo. Who needs to duolingo? And I can just use ChatGPT.

Yeah.

But definitely, I think, you know, again it all comes kind of do your best, be good, do good and and, and think long term. I think that's how I like to think about.

Yeah, I like that a lot. What are so what are some of your. Your guy. Your team's kind of your goals plans over the next, you know, couple of months? I know like coming up on the new year, do you guys like, how do you guys sort of approach the, the goal setting, you know, process especially being early. I know it's different. Like if you had a big company like they probably have like a three to six month process where it's like we said our okrs and blah blah, blah. Like I think I want. I didn't really love that or we had to use to go through that. I kind of love like you know, short sprints around goals. Like curious how you guys are doing it.

I think it all comes kind of from priorities. What is for us is really to grow the platform more, develop both the product and adoption. But I think for us the next three months is going to be super busy because now when the market really picks up again after the summer break. So for us is really to be present at the right places where the people are. We think we can help the most. And for people who are in startup, incubator, accelerator, but also academics and then we want to really interact with them, show that we exist. So it's really attending the conferences while in the meantime developing the products and making sure that we can actually finish when we agreed. And we also help a lot of liquidation companies that unfortunately are going under to find a new home for such products. I think for us it's a lot of spreadsheets, but we try to really move fast and understand what needs to be done. So always like what is the highest goal and how do we get there? And I give freedom to do as you wish to get there as well with guidance.

And then yeah, that's something that we also started to really focus around is the focus on a couple of really important goals that we think are going to actually move the needle and trying to then prioritize the discrete set of actions that are going to have the largest impact to hit that objective rather than I think a lot of people. I'm an ideas guy, Nick's an Ideas guy. And so there's all these ideas that we could have. And so it's like, how do we take this list of things, prioritize it to make sure that these are the absolute most important ones that we're going to focus on to get done within this time frame. Because we all have limited time. Right.

So, and so what we do, we use a lot notion where we outline everything and then we attach priorities and deadlines and then say, okay, this is high despite maybe you don't want to do it or that's, that's what you need. Because for us there's so many things to do as we're a small company, you know, from, you know, logistics, marketing, product development, sales, attending conferences and really balancing that among the team and making sure that the workload and everything is manageable. It's something that can be quite challenging. But, you know, we learn each week and we see what works. And once you see what works, you need to just do it more.

I think this is an important process point, whether you are. And we've got a lot of reps and sales leaders listening to this, probably more so than business owners, I would suggest. But all of those points both of you just made are relevant. Whatever your job role is, if you consider yourself the business owner of your territory as a.

Rather you are. Right. Or whatever.

Yeah, territory, your team, your whatever it may be, your discrete account list. I guarantee it is really easy for you to be busy and not be effective. Right. That's so easy for especially a business owner. You've got 17 billion things like, and a rep is often similar.

You.

No, no one says, oh, your quote has gone down and I'm taking away some responsibilities from you. It's always the opposite every year.

Right.

So how do you sit down on a monthly, weekly basis and prioritize the things and test whether these are the things that are going to affect your quota or your team and then if they don't, you've lost something in time maybe, but you've gained the knowledge and you move on to the next thing. And I think just by doing that exercise and actually carrying it out, you will be more effective.

Yeah. And especially if you work in an international team, as we are, so we are across Europe, the visibility of what people do day to day is less. So you do have to kind of have it in a place to be visible because then you can understand. Okay. Because always something pops out so you have a clear plan for the week and maybe something happens in an order or something. You have to Put a lot of time to figure it out. And especially as you're growing, there's going to be new things that you don't know and you need to learn them. It takes a longer time to learn the new thing and then it becomes faster.

Yeah. And I think if you focus on outcome as opposed to what people are doing, so you build the things you say we need to do this by these times and you focus on outcome. Generally people are happy in their roles because I'm not wondering where you are as a manager, as a person, where you are as an owner company, what you're doing when you take your lunch, any of these silly things that often micromanagers worry about because they think busy is effective. Whereas if you're monitoring things that are moving the business needle, if people are getting those objectives done, you're happy. Right. That's, it's pretty simple.

And I think usually the things you set, if they, if, if team manages 80%, that's still good. You know, it's, it cannot be perfect. Like it's, it's like forecasting, it's, it's a little bit like you know, things will come into play that you cannot predict and you have to accommodate for that and really then focus. Okay. If something happens, how do you prioritize and making sure that they also think like that to do because we have to really deliver In a big company you can get away because it kind of, it's a machine oil engine that just runs and sometimes you can get away with it.

This has been awesome conversation. Good to catch up chat with you again. I'm sure we'll see you at some conferences coming up here in the next couple of months. But yeah, appreciate you coming on. Any last words of wisdom, anything you want to share or maybe where people can find you as well? Anything like that.

And then yeah, I think in terms of me, LinkedIn is probably the best place as well. And then wasteless bio is what we are building really kind of, we like to say Vinted for life sciences. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then in terms of I think messaging, just kind of put in the work on yourself. I think just get better and do good, be good. It all comes back in the end, I think so I think that's the main part. And also don't look too short. I think everybody now wants to have everything very quick. It doesn't happen unless you're very lucky. So it is kind of like expect to put in the work and time.