[Leadership] Growing a startup as a sales leader with Chris Dingman

You don't take a job unless you can, unless you know a little bit about it. Right. And you can bring value. That's, that's a very important lesson. Don't take a job if you can't do it and you're not going to bring value to the company. Longevity at a company is for people that bring value. You know, when I, when I started and I hadn't been in lung cancer in seven years, I've been in breast cancer for that entire time. It had been a long. But I knew a couple people and I immediately sent an email. Hey, remember me on LinkedIn? I went to LinkedIn, hey, remember me? I'm with this new company. It's a startup. This is what we're doing. I want your opinion. Will you meet with me for 30 minutes and boom, that's you. Now you're off.

You're.

You go meet with that person and maybe it worked. And in my situation, one of the first people I met with is still today supporting us in a major way and opening a ton of doors for us. It worked with that one per. That one person has led to probably 30% of all the, all of my customers power.

Finding the right person and getting referrals. Yeah, I mean, so many apps just don't even ask for referrals. Right? So if there's anything circulating, ask for referrals. Before we get into today's show, I wanted to tell you a little bit about what we have going on over here at Succession. So Succession is a life science sales membership that includes on demand courses to uplevel your sales skills, resources to plan and execute your sales process, a community for peer to peer networking and learning, and live workshops delivered by experts twice a month. You can get access to all of this as an individual for just $79 a month or you can up level your entire sales team with courses and customized learning designed for each individual rep. Come and join us over at Succession Bio. Okay, let's dive back into the show. All right, Nick, we got another good episode for everybody here. It's a little bit different from some of the other episodes that we've done because we have somebody from the diagnostic space, Chris Dingham. He is the chief commercial officer over at Onka Host and he has a wealth of experience from starting his career selling cars all the way to large pharma and selling pharmaceuticals now in diagnostics and building out a whole diagnostic team globally. So really, really exciting stuff that he had to share with us. What were some of the takeaways that you Had.

Yeah, there's a few good pieces in there. The whole car salesman bit, I'm normally like, well, I don't want to be a secondhand car salesman. I want to be a scientific rep. And actually he shows a good example of how he used that knowledge to be a better rep.

Yes, exactly.

The other piece that is interesting to me as a non US Citizen is the, the involvement of sales reps in the sort of selling process of pharmaceuticals and being a pharmaceutical sales rep. So that was really interesting. And some really good pieces about just make a decision from like a leadership point of view. So many people sit not making a decision for too long and you just need to do it. And so some great advice from in there as well.

Yep, I agree. Lots of good stuff. All right, let's dive on into the show. Hey, Chris, welcome to the show. We're excited to have you here.

Thanks. I appreciate the invite and happy to meet you all.

Yeah, good to see you.

Yeah, this would be a good one. So I know we gave you a prep question ahead of time, but we asked everybody the same question. Give us a crazy or funny story that's happening in your career.

There's, there's probably too many to recall, but I'll go back, I'll go back to my, to my sales days because I think there's a, there's a couple lessons in the story as well. When I was starting out with one, a new company, this is probably 15 years ago, I had just picked up Utah as my territory and I was, I was very excited about that because I love, you know, hiking. I was excited to go out to hike Angels Landing. And there was a physician out there that really draws from a lot of areas. Very busy, very difficult to see appointment. Only six month wait. And my six month had finally come. I'm going to be able to see this doctor. I'm going to be able to see the beautiful Utah, go for a hike. Everything's going to work out perfect. So I land in Vegas, I get my rental car, and then I head up through the hills to the beautiful valley. I am old school military dad came up with Merck. Five minutes early, 10 minutes early. That's on time. And I realized I was going to be about 10 minutes late due to some delays with flight. So I called the office and said, hey, I'm going to be a little late. Apologize. It's not normal for me. And they're like, hey, no problem. We'll see when you get here. So about two hours later, I show up and I'M rushing and sure enough I'm eight minutes late. And I go in, but I'm here and hey, sorry I'm late, ready to see the doctor. Where do I go? Says, well, doctors already started seeing his afternoon patients. Sorry, but he's not going to be able to see you. And I'm like, wait, you know, I just flew all the way here, I spent so much Money, I'm only eight minutes late. There's still, you know, 52 minutes left of time in this lunch hour. You know, I gotta see them. You know, what can we do? Let me check with the doctor. Back, back. No, I'm sorry, the doctor is just too busy other appointments, seeing patients. So I'm like, I, I gotta ask you, I don't understand this. Was I only gonna get eight minutes with the physician? And they said, no, you were going to get 60 minutes. But you know, it's 108. So you know, you're, you're 68 minutes late. And what had happened is I had completely taken into consideration the time zone.

Oh my goodness.

So, so I was just afraid so, so I did what I was going to do. I went and I, I took my hike, spent the night. And the next morning I was in the parking lot, 7:30am they all showed up at 8, saw the doctor, said, hey, this is what happened yesterday. I, I don't need to talk to you. I just wanted to apologize because I didn't want you to think that I blew you off. And, and of course, you know, with the goal of trying to get time. And sure enough, he, he gave me 10 minutes and we had a chance to catch up and it, it worked out in the end. But you know, I guess know, know your time zones and don't give up.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. I, I like both of those like anecdotes there, right? The, the time zone piece, that's fun. Just so unfortunate that happened. But then showing up early with the intention of apologizing, not with the intention of, I'm going to try and pitch this guy in the morning while I try to sneak it in. I think probably came across to him as, you know, you're being genuine. This isn't normally like you. And so, yeah, well, I like about that.

I've had a, I think about a similar emotion where you, when the person tells you you were wrong and you didn't realize in that moment of realization that mistake you've made. I had one when boarding a flight. So I went to check in for my flight and they were like, sorry, you're too late, you can't check in. And I'm thinking, I've still got 30 minutes to make this. This is ridiculous. And started like going down that path of sim review, like trying.

Why?

Why? And they're like, no, you're not, you're not. 30 minutes to make it. You're 12 hours late. I thought it was a set flight. Was it 7am flight and I missed it completely and had to stay in Paris for another night.

Yeah, yeah, but that was worse place. There's worse places to spend the night.

Sure.

So can you give us a little quick background on Anka Host and some of the stuff that you guys are doing over there?

Sure. So you know what's great about Ankohost is that half the team's in Israel and then, you know, half the team's in the US and you know, Israel is kind of considered a startup nation. There's a lot of startups there. And I think why, why Anka Host, why it works so well with Israel and US companies specifically is that we're a 24 hour a day clock. I go to bed, they wake up. Right. We never stop working on is a startup company that is helping to really, really add value to a field that there's a huge gap. Immunotherapy is being used on a lot of patients. Response rates are low. This company's trying to solve that problem. So, you know, we've probably done four years worth of work in 18 months. Work really fast. And part of it is because of how hard they work, how hard we work, but we never stop. You know, it's a really, a great combination. Onkohost, US and Israel.

Yeah, that's awesome. I think what you guys are doing is amazing and so yeah, I appreciate you sharing that with everybody, but I think we'll segue now kind of getting to a little bit of your background. So you started in pharmaceutical sales. Maybe get a feel for, for kind of how you started there and how, how that's now led you into Onka Host and as the cco.

Sure. So, so I like to. My, my career really started as in car sale. That that's where I really learned sales. So I, I sold cars for eight years. Now I like to say that I didn't because I put myself through school and then people ask well why did it take eight years to get through school? So I kind of set myself up for, for failure there. But you know, I did go very slowly through college and that I took a Couple years off before I went back, but I sold cars for eight years. And as I was selling cars, I learned. So it was a great job, by the way. I learned so much about business and people. Learned so much about people. I, I had, you know, rich to the core, coming in to get, to get vehicles. And you learn all types, so that's really where I cut my teeth. My, my cousin was the pretty high up at Pfizer. I had always envied what she was doing and asked her, hey, I want to take the next leap. What do I need to do? I'm, you know, I'm getting ready to graduate college here. She said, get your degree, continue to sell cars. Interview, you'll, you'll be fine. You've got the experience. So during the interview process, I was either going to work for Pfizer or Merck. And because they were the, in my opinion, the two best, the best training programs. So I was interviewing with both. I really liked the manager at Merck and I wanted that job. And he asked a couple questions, you know, why do I, why should I believe you can do this job? There's a lot of science. You're selling cars. How do I know you can learn the science? How do I know you can do this? And I said, you know, I said, john, I said, I've been, I've been selling pieces of tin to people that don't need it for eight years. You think I can't sell a drug that doctors and patients want? This is a piece of cake. And he said, that's a good answer. Why should I hire you? And I said, because if you don't, I'm going to go work for your main competitor advisor, and you don't want. So got the job. You know, I worked in pharma for, for quite a while, and I went through a lot of downsizing, you know, and when my wife had her, our third baby, Aubrey, in her belly, I was about to go through another downsizing with Sanofi Venice at that time. And cardiothoracic surgeon who had kind of been a mentor of mine at ucsf said, look, you got to get out of pharma. There's this new industry, diagnostics, next gen sequencing. This is where you belong. This is, this is who you are. And so, you know, I took a leap of faith and got into the diagnostic business. And I've, I've been here for, for 15 years. And I think what's beautiful about that is, you know, in the pharmaceutical industry as a sales rep, where you've Got five people doing the same thing you're doing in the exact same territory. It's hard to distinguish yourself. It's hard to grow and to become, you know, who you want to become. And going from a large company to a small company, for me, worked out because I was able to spread my wings and really, you know, prove to myself and to others what I could bring to the, to the table. So for me, it was a good, it was a good transition. It doesn't mean it is for everybody.

Yeah, no, I think that, I think it's. It's interesting, though, that you called out specifically one of the reasons you wanted to go to Pfizer or Merck was to get the training. And I think that's something that larger companies, some large companies do well, is they have great training programs. Now, there are some that don't, but it's definitely something you don't always get when you join a startup. And so for somebody early in their career, it could be a great opportunity. Go to a larger company first, get that, the sales training, the experience. And then if you decide, hey, I'm actually more of a startup person going.

To the startup world, I agree. So when people ask me, you know, hey, I've got this young person, they want to get into your, you know, your business. My, my thought is get a job in the pharmaceutical industry first. You know, there's nine weeks of training. I was actually a trainer as well. There's nine weeks of training. It's really, really good training. And you cut your teeth. As a startup company, I need to hire professional adults. Right. These are people that are very independent. They've been doing it for a long time. They already have relationships. They've proven themselves, they've cut their teeth. Sometimes they're a little long in the tooth. And I'm okay with, you know, I hire experience because I don't have the time to give them the training that they would deserve otherwise. So, you know, you know, when people ask me about getting into my industry, I, I'm hesitant to tell them to jump right into diagnostics. Not, not a horrible idea. There are some good diagnostic, large, but larger. You know, myriad is somebody I've hired people from. They have a good training program. Some of the larger diagnostic companies that are really well established have the resources to spend there, but startups, very difficult.

Yeah, that's, that's rings true. And I know one of the things that you mentioned when we were talking about this ahead of time was that you have sort of a knack or an ability to identify those great sales reps. What do you kind of do? That's maybe the secret sauce you will.

You know, I, I don't know that I am right. I've made some, some bad hires over the years. I think I know how, how I want somebody to do the job and I'm very trusting, probably too trusting. But, you know, I, I rely on instinct and say, yeah, you're, you're the, you're the right fit for this job. But that, that doesn't always work out. People don't always do what they say they're going to do or have done what they said they, they've done in the past. So I, I wouldn't say that I'm actually an expert. How, how do you know that you're going to hire somebody that's actually going to go out there and work? So I try to focus on are they smart enough to do the job right? Are they scientifically focused? Are they going to be able to be a content expert? Check that box. Great. What is their, their past history of work and what have they done? But you know, you can't ask for references. Are you going to give a reference or somebody that's not going to say this is a person. You know, I mean, HR always says check their references. I said, why? I don't need to talk to their best friend. I'm talking to them. But so that's not always, Honestly, it's one of the hardest parts of the job is hiring the right people. I've been fortunate enough, you know, I think in my, in this role that I'm in now as cco, I have been able to make some mistakes on hiring and really figure out what works. And what works is, is working with people that I've worked with in the past that I trust when, when I can work with somebody that I know they've done it in the past, that or I get an internal referral that says, this is your person, this person's going to work hard for you. They're going to do a great job. I sleep better at night because I have trust and I don't have to worry about it. And that's probably the best way to find top talent. Word of mouth and internal references.

I agree. We, we, we left a company that had great talent and you just seeing many versions of that company pop up all over the place because as soon as one person leaves, they hire a load of people from where we work together, knowing, look, the track.

Yeah. I mean, your old company sells and the new, the New company that bought it's destroying it. And some of the leadership's gone off to a startup. Everybody's like, hey, let's do this again. And quite frankly, that's fine. Because the company that bought, they don't need you. Right? They have, they can hire people that are less expensive, they have more resources, they have better training, they can pay less to get more. But a startup needs that top talent. So it's a natural progression for people. And it's, it's part of. You know, when I started with Merck, I thought it was golden handcuffs. I was going to be there forever. This was, you know, a long time ago, obviously. And you know, I think from that, not that that's a bad option, it still exists. But hopping from one job to another is okay. If you've done it right there. If you're, if you're a year here, here there, two years here, and you haven't done anything and those companies have all failed, that's a problem. But if you can show, I was there for three years and this is what I did and this is what the company did and this is why I left and now you're lucky to have me. Great. That's what I'm looking for.

Yeah, Love it. I think now as you're, as you're a CCO in this company, do you. It's more than just the people. Right. Like if you're a manager, really it's your people that are like obviously the most important thing or that's like the people that you have control over. But now you're at probably a level within the organization where it's more than just people. So what are some of the other elements that you think about as you build up, like know basically diagnostics company from, from scratch?

Sure. You know, our company is, is unique in that all the tech was based out of our company In Israel, my CEO, CFO, R&D, all out of Israel. And they are experts at what they're experts at. Right. The machine learning process combined with data entry and developing predictive algorithms. Really, really smart individuals. But the commercialization aspect in the United States I think is lost on a lot of companies. And that's fine. Right? That's, that's, it's good for me because that I may be able to provide value. I have a job because of it. But you know, my role really is saying, okay, in the United States you have a, what we have is a laboratory developed test. It's a test that we run out of our lab. It's not fda. It's clear guided. What does it take? What do you have to do? Well, one, you have to have a process to, to get orders, right. You need an order form. You need. In us, we're doing plasma collection, so blood, so you need a kit. So, so for, for me, it's like you have to start with what's the foundational, what do you need? You need the point where you can get to the customer the information the customer can get to you an order and you can facilitate that order. So that's really step one in a, in a diagnostic company. And then step two is making sure that the science and the R and D that's being put out is going to support the commercial message. Are you answering a clinical question? Does your data support a clinical question? So you got to make sure that you're putting out the proper clinical, analytical validities, clinical validity and clinical utility papers. There's a path, it's a blueprint. I'm not making it up. There's a, you know, there's a blueprint and I can follow it. You've got to get reimbursement. You got to establish your reimbursement for us. It's a, it's a test, it's a diagnostic test. And we've got to get our, you know, you got to get your Medicare reimbursement, you've got to get private insurance companies contracted. Well, there's a huge process to that. You know, you, you got to know what to do. You got to build your dossier, you got to get your papers or submissions or pricing meetings. There's local coverage determination meetings. How do you bill? Right. We got to get a billing department. Okay, so do we outsource that? Do we, you know, do we find. So now you're faced with what do you do internally versus what do you get with consultant. And if you think finding good sales reps and internal people is difficult, try to find good consultants. Right. So when you find a good consultant, make them happy and keep them do whatever you need to do because they are, they are going to support you throughout. So, you know, that's a lot of what I've been focused on. And then, and then of course, you know, again, building out, building out an actual sales team and then we can talk about the rest, which is the customer interaction in general and account building.

Yeah. A couple other kind of questions into that front is, you know, company starts, it is real. So they. Sounds like they bring you in because you've got the experience in the US Market because as we were talking in the pre call, it's like there's a big difference in how do you actually go to market with test diagnostics, pharmaceuticals, et cetera, in these different regional areas. So the things that you have, that you have to do in the US are going to be different than what you have to do in the UK So are you learning a lot of that or are you really just focusing on the, the US market right now yourself?

I knew the blueprint for the US that doesn't mean I had all the answers. Right, which is why you need consultants and good people around you. And I'll make mistakes and oh, okay, pivot. That is where my expertise is. I rely on my CFO and CEO from the European standpoint, they know more about that. You know, how do you get into Germany? There's grants. You can get early access to their, to their health care system if you qualify for X, Y and Z. So I'm relying on them. Ultimately, I'll need to scale that up from a commercial standpoint. But I do rely on others outside of the US to try to answer those questions and really focus on what I can control right now. Which is the most important aspect is getting all the, you know, again, getting us established in the US Getting the lab to be able to accept samples and that, you know, check that box. Getting the reimbursement. That's the biggest and most important aspect of what we're doing right now is, is getting our reimbursement completely solidified. Because ultimately, if you, if you get your pricing and you get reimbursement and you know what your, you know, total addressable market is, you can put a value on your company. Right. We've got this test, this price, These are the amount of patients that qualify. If we get 10% of market or 20, 30, 40, 50, this is what the company's worth. Oh, yeah. And we've got five other tests right behind it that are all going to get reimbursed at the same amount. But I've got to go through the same process. But this is the timeline. So you can really start to help work with investors to say this is what the company is actually worth. Do you want us to, to build this out ourselves? You know, is it an M and A? Do we do ipo? I mean, you can start now. You have options and those are, those are, those are good problems to have.

Yeah, it's like build up the infrastructure that allows you to function as an organization and then adding in, then the sales talent on top to go to market and then I should go bring in that revenue.

Exactly. And, you know, there's companies in our space, you know, Foundation, Medicine, Garden, some big companies that when they went to market, they started with, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank. So you've, you've got an option. You can, with that, you can just, if you've got a good product, you can just hire a giant sales team and saturate the market and not even worry about reimbursement. You don't even need to get paid. You're, you're just going to run these tests and you're going to own the market. And when you do get paid, when you do establish all that, Boom, you've got 200 sales reps, you've already got, you know, thousands of tests coming in. Now you start to get paid. That's one option. But for most startups, especially in today's, you know, market, it's not the right path. I shouldn't say it's not the right path. There's an alternative path, right? The alternative path is to say, let's prove what we can do in key accounts. I don't need all 4,000 oncologists that see lung cancer to use my tests. I just need 10 really important accounts where not only are they using it, but we're fully integrated. We, we've got their, you know, I'm, I'm working with the EMRs, the EPIC and the Onco EMRs to get, order, set, set it, put in place. Um, you know, if we can get 10 accounts where we're fully integrated, they see a patient, it's flagged, gets ordered, blood draws done, information, orders sent to us electronically, results are sent back electronically. And I can then just show investors, others M and A, we can show them. Look, all we need to do now is put a bunch of money in the bank because money's freedom. And we can blow this thing out and we're going to duplicate this all over the country. I mean, it's very clear. All you want to try to do in a startup is to paint that picture of who you're going to be. You don't have to necessarily be it, and sometimes you don't want to be. I mean, look at Grail. Grail sold to Illumina for $8 billion and they never sold the test. You know, I mean, you know, whatever. So you don't have to necessarily have sales. And sometimes not having sales and not having those expectations is even easier. We, we again have chosen the path of a small Launch key account, establish ourselves, show what we can do, get our reimbursement established, white glove service with our customers and that's how we're pushing this out.

Okay, so that kind of leads into the follow up question, which is how do you pick those 10 accounts that you're going to get into? Right. What's the, what's the strategy? You don't, they pick you, bring them down.

How do you, they pick you. So for us, what we did is, you know, with myself and really kind of one other person and this is the part of a startup, right? I'm the cco, but I'm the sales rep, I'm the, I'm with client services, I'm, you know, you do everything. And I have another person, Anna, who has kind of been my right hand person and she's brand new to the industry, you know, a nurse practitioner. And, and she's doing it, she's learning everything you want to talk about through a fire hose. This is somebody that's learning, you know, all aspects and doing all aspects of the job. She's doing client services, she's talking to mobile phlebotomy, she's managing orders, she's meeting with doctors, she's selling that she's never sold before. Right. She's one of the best sales reps I've ever met. You know, she's a nurse practitioner that was in oncology. So at a startup you gotta find people that can just, they care deeply and can just get the job done. So what we did is we went out and talked to people and when there's people that are really interested, those are the ones you focus on. And if somebody says, oh, it's too early, you need more data. Okay, fine, I'll talk to you in three years when it's already, you know, in the guidelines. Fine. You're not an early adopter, you're not an early, late adopter. I need the early adopters that understand the technology, believe in what we have so they kind of find you and you be honest with them. This is what we need to do. We don't want a bunch of doctors, I'm not worried about how many orders you're going to send in. I want to get your account established. I want to do it right so that when we do fully launch this with you, there are no hiccups and we're able to provide white glove service. So in essence they find you, but when that happens, you take full advantage of it. And you put the gas pedal down.

Yeah. Do you have like from your experience, like a list of these, like, you know, early adopter type of people that you can kind of go to, or. Or is this. You just kind of talk to as many humans possibly can and.

No, I mean, where do you start?

Right?

Where do you start? You start, you know, look, you don't take a job unless you can. Unless you know a little bit about it, right? And you can bring value. That's. That's a very important lesson. Don't take a job if you can't do it and you're not going to bring value to the company. Longevity at a company is, is for people that bring value. So, yeah, I mean, you know, when I, when I started and I hadn't been in lung cancer in seven years, I'd been in breast cancer for that entire time. It had been a long. But I knew a couple people and I immediately send an email. Hey, remember me on LinkedIn? I went to LinkedIn, hey, remember me? I'm with this new company. It's a startup. This is what we're doing. I want your opinion. Will you meet with me for 30 minutes? And boom, now you're off. You go meet with that person. And maybe it worked. And in my situation, one of the first people I met with is still today, supporting us in a major way and opening a ton of doors for us. It worked with that one. That one person has led to probably 30% of all the. All of my customers. Right. So you just do the best you can.

Power finding the right person and getting referrals. Yeah, I mean, so many apps just don't even ask for referrals. Right? So if there's anything so unbelievable, ask for referrals.

Who you like this test, you're using it. Who else thinks like you do? Who else is going to want to use this test? Oh, I know. Oh, you know, Dr. Park is going to want to use this test. Can you introduce me by email and I'll take care of it from there? Yeah, you're off to. You've got to ask that question. If you got somebody that's using your test, who do you know? Or a product, it doesn't matter. Could be a widget. Who do you know that also would want to use this widget? And then that introduction puts you light years ahead of everybody else because the email is coming from them, from their buddy that they trust.

Like if you ghostwrite the email for. Oh, go ahead.

But I was saying it's the simplest thing we do. You just have to ask one question and then they either do it or they don't. It's not like series of prospects and emails. It's one question with my mind.

You know, it's easy to get caught up in it. I mean, I, you know, I, I love the fact my CEO is a doctor, so he's, he's the, he's, you know, the physician side, and then he's got me the commercial side. Two different perspectives. He was part of Market Access, you know, with Merck, so really scientific group. So, you know, it's really interesting because we have different viewpoints, but those are so important because he gives me perspective like when, when, when I'm going out and I'm wasting my time and, you know, I'll do that because I don't want to give up because, you know, and, and I think that's that part of my mentality. And I do think everybody should have. It is. It's a yes until you hear a no. But at the same time, if you got to trust your instincts, if you're going to be spinning your wheels, you move on, you know, so he's done a nice job of getting me key accounts was always the plan. We have key accounts up and running. We, that's always the goal. You don't want one doctor using your product or one person using any product. Once in a while, you want the entire organization using the product. And we've been able to establish that. But sometimes it takes that outside view of, hey, why are you spending so much time over here? Just duplicate that right there. Oh, you're. You know what? You're right. So, so even, you know, I have constant learning moments from the people around me.

That's good. Yeah. I mean, it's part of hiring the best people you possibly can. The people that are driven, motivated, and then having a diverse set of opinions listen to. Right. If you hire everybody that looks just like you, you're gonna have a bunch of the same thing versus tell me.

Why I'm wrong, tell me what I'm missing, and then shut up and listen and be open to that feedback, you know, and say, ah, yep, you're right. I am missing that point. And it's an important one. So you don't have clarity. You get, you know, you get kind of laser vision in what you're doing and the outside world can be shut out. Why is other people have, you know, a better, a better vantage point from that?

Yeah. And for all levels as well.

Right.

Sometimes the newest person who comes in a room has some of the, the best ideas. You're so locked into the way it's always been done, you can't see it.

It's, it's. Well, look, they, you only have so many hours in a day and so much bandwidth. So, you know, you have to rely on the people around you. I mean, it's just like, you know, in, in Israel, my marketing communications manager is there, right? And she's never done anything in the US market to any degree. She's never done a lot with Salesforce, which is our CRM. And all of a sudden, you know, the mark, they're, they're coming to me with these ideas of, hey, you know, if we spend 15 grand, we've got, they've got this program and it does X, Y and Z and this is how it's going to impact us. And wow, I would have never thought of that. That's amazing. Like we can do that, you know, go with it, run with it. And that's the other thing in a startup. You have to trust, go with it. Let's go, you know, let's see what we can do with this and what happens with it. Every. Everybody doesn't have to believe in it, but if it, you know, you got to give them, give people an opportunity to spread their wings, right? If I, if, if I ask people just to do what I want them to do, I'm. We're not going to grow at any sort of a rate. We're going to, you know, time's going to stand still. You got to trust the people around you as long as they're, you know.

Well, we're, we're coming up on time here. Want to kind of wrap it up with one last sort of final question. So there's lots of sales reps out there that are thinking, I want to make the move into, to leadership. What kind of advice would you give to them either one way or the other?

So as far as going into leadership, don't just hang out, be a sales rep. It's a great job to manage anybody. It's awesome.

Not a wrong piece of advice, that's for sure.

You know, the word leadership I think is used for a reason. You know, someone has to make, make a decision. If you get into leadership positions, even I tell this to the people at my company that are, you know, lior the Marcom manager or Anna other, you know, it, it isn't, it isn't natural. It doesn't. You're gonna feel a little bit uncomfortable. But somebody has to make these decisions and you have to trust your gut. It, it may feel uncomfortable at first. But if you're the content expert, you know more about this subject than other people. Make the decision, go with it, Push it forward. Somebody's got to push it forward always. For be that person. Trust your intuition and don't worry about the uncomfortable. And if you, and if it doesn't work, I know it's a cliche, if it fails that you've learned something, you don't want to fail, you want to succeed. So make good decisions. But you know, just trust in the fact that if it doesn't work out perfectly, it's not the end of the world. Right. It's one decision out of many you're going to make. We'll pick up the pieces and we'll figure it out.

Yeah, I think that's great. I mean, there's a famous quote from Jeff Bezos who talks about like one way or two way doors where it's like your, your one way door is once you go into that door and you make that decision, you can't go back. Right. So those sorts of decisions require a lot of energy and effort to make sure you're making the right one. But most decisions are two way doors where you can go in and if you don't like that decision, you can turn around and come right back.

Absolutely.

Oh, should be made quickly.

The final, the final piece is for sales reps or anybody. Be the content expert. Don't expect results if you're not putting time in, period, end of story. You have to be an expert at what you're doing, dedicated and care about it. Don't expect results without putting the, the effort in, period.

I love it. Well, that note, that's a great way to wrap this up. Put in the effort, everybody. Thanks, Chris. It's been a pleasure having you on the show.

Thank you.

Thanks.