[Sales] Being an introvert is great for sales with Adam Pead

Sometimes people are too keen to knock out potential sales because they don't think people have budgets when they haven't taken the time to really start to understand what the journey of the client is. What's the problem? So actually, one of the big things I've really learned is actually to say that, okay, that's fine. Can you tell me why? Because actually, once you then get them to open up, it's like, well, you know, I think it was okay, but I haven't. My boss didn't understand it. It's like, well, we can help with.

Hey, Adam, welcome to the podcast. We're excited to have you here.

Brilliant. Love to. It's love to see you, Harrison. Nick. Yeah, really looking forward to it.

Yeah, it's good. I know when we chatted a couple weeks ago, we had some good ideas and so we're like, hey, why don't you come on the podcast and chat? So figured it'd be good. So glad you're here. But as you know, we start every conversation the same way. Give us a crazy story that's happened in your career.

Yeah. So I had a good think about this and there's many, many things, but there's one that really, really sticks out to me and I believe it shaped me as an individual. When I was younger, I used to do ski seasons quite a lot, and when I came back in the summers, I used to. My parents had pubs and restaurants back in, back in Suffolk and I used to go and do lots of different hospitality things. And I was working in London for an events company doing this big wedding and really, really high profile. And I was there sort of opening champagne cork which fired that I hand and then flew across, across this thing and hit the mother and mother of the bride in the back of the head. I just popped up. Luckily she had like so much like, like bump in her hair. Like, I don't think she kind of like looked around and couldn't see it was me and I just very casually styled it out. So then I spent the whole. The rest of the evening really nervous. Then consequently, they had a helicopter like come and land to take the bride and groom away afterwards. And we had all our, all our stuff out and this helicopter came in towards the end of the evening. It just took all our, all our glasses and everything out from other things like that. So that's just like any time I ever get my career when I think things are tough, nothing ever could be as bad as that evening. So that's one thing that's always stuck with Me.

That's wild. Coming in and out on a helicopter to a wedding also. Power move. Yeah, exactly.

First thing that stands out, anyone who's a listener to the podcast. I've always thought it's correlated to extroverts, introverts, which we're going to get into in a bit, I think. A bit. But there seems to be a correlation between anybody who's ever been a scientist and had a side gig in some kind of entertainment segment.

Yeah.

Where they're running to sales. I ran a mobile cocktail bar. We've had loads of people on there that have been DJs and like event planners. It seems to be like some weird convergence. If you're, if you've done both of those things, it's destiny.

I think so. And I think hospitality in general is, is such a good grounding for sales, especially if you're young in your career because you get to speak to such a demographic of people, all different stages of life, all different, you know, interests and things, and you get to, you get to have conversations, which I think is fundamentally the most important thing in sales as well. So it's a really good sort of like role playing environment, really.

So, yeah, the correlation does not work in reverse. I found out though. So you don't go to do event work and find lots of scientists. It does. I know this because I'm behind one. So like 50th wedding anniversary, I was surrounded by all of these sort of like just people with non scientific interest, like sort of people that would follow Love island and that kind of like just to reference them. And I'm like, oh my God. I was like, do you know who that is? And they're like, who are you talking about? I'm like, that's John Gordon. Tell us. He's like this stem cell professor who's won a Nobel Prize. And I was flipping out. They're like looking for some celebrity.

Yeah. Nobody knows who you're talking about.

Brilliant.

That's funny. But yeah, I think what would be, it would be helpful is kind of thinking back to that, like, what kind of was that tipping point for you where you said, oh, I'm gonna, you know, go get into sales. Like, how did you know that that was the, the right path?

Yeah. So sales has always been something that I've, I've been involved in. So I get. I said, I did skiing, then I had a career in hospitality, had my own business, worked for big corporates and there's lots of training in there as well. Then I migrated into recruitment, ran a sort of a 360 desk where you were responsible for the whole aspect. So basically running your own P and L. Then Covid hit and I was in a position like so many where everything that was standard just got flipped upside down and shaken, shaken inside out. And actually I read a book called the startup of you by Reid Hoffman, sort of of LinkedIn fame on there as well. And I thought I want to take control of this a little bit. Like, you know, basically the book is actually you treat your career like you would a a business and relook at it things. And I thought, well, what am I good at? What am I, what are my strengths? What have I always had, you know, sort of success in? And it is that, you know, I've always been good at selling. But then I've always been told that you weren't the right type of character. You're not a salesman, you're not salesy enough to be that. And I was like, but I've always hit my quotas, I've always delivered really good outs and my landing rates were always really good. So actually I again, through sorts of weird pivots through the company I worked in, now sort of found myself in this sort of role within Science Detectives, selling really complex capital projects development to these are multi million pound projects. And actually the skills that I've learned along those way, they wouldn't say there's a defining moment where I said I'm going to be a salesman, but just these experiences have all sort of stacked up and actually giving myself the confidence to say I can do this, I can sell 3, 4, 10, 15 million pound projects and you know, feel comfortable standing in the room, you know, talking about it and advising it and yeah, so that's, that's where it's sort of born really.

I wonder, you said a term that you weren't salesy enough. What the heck does that even mean? Like, I feel like that would be like a bad thing, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's that kind of, you know, that very alpha male almost wolf of Wall street type character. And I think a lot of people have been in that environment where it's just, you know, focus on getting the dashboard spinning, you gotta hustle, you gotta do that, you know, cool no matter what, push, push, push. And you know, you lose the value of what is actually good about tracking KPIs, tracking OKRs, you know, your focus when you just try to really slam home to create inverted commas, a win. And I was always like, but it's just not that's just not me. I don't. I, you know, I've gone out and tried to, you know, I can act and I can do the Persona and I can go out and do the networking events and be that kind of, you know, sort of person in the room that everybody pivots to. But it's just exhausting. I find it absolutely exhausting. I saw it coming away from, like, events and, you know, nights. Just think, like, almost in tears sometimes because I'm that tired, like mentally. And then I can't really follow up properly on these because I don't really know the character I was when I was in the room with them on there as well. And actually it's more than of an understanding myself when it comes to sales. And so if I'm just genuine, if I go as I am and build some rapport with these, you know, with my prospects, then actually I have much more success in the. In the long term. It's not always about, like going in and coming out with a black book full of. Full of closed deals. That's what I mean. So by. By salesy, that really, you know, just basic kind of, you know, classic Nick.

Is what you say.

I was about to say I'm an extrovert, but I would say classic Salzy. Definitely not the you and I to both brag the other day that we know how to knit. That's not alpha mouth.

Can you crochet, though? Because that is when you. Yeah, that's when you start to get involved.

Yeah, we both have knitted. We both know how to knit. I did crochet at one point, but knitting was more my style.

What may make me feel more alpha Mal, is I don't quit knitting. I quit 3D printing with textiles. Because then it's.

I like that. Perfect. So, yeah, it's utilizing what I know as my strength into it. And again, I'm still a salesman. I'm still looking for a competitive advantage. You know, I still want to help the client deliver a really good product, but also I'm in competition with a lot of people. So it's actually, you know, it's about, you know, the need meeting the needs of the business as well as the needs of the clients. And, you know, I think those introverted tendencies can. That kind of analytical thought process that. That way you kind of an introvert will naturally think quite deeply about a problem can actually lend itself fundamentally really well to the sales process because every business at some point has to make a sale. You know, whether you're a startup, whether you're a big established corporate, whether you're anywhere in between, if no one is out there bringing the top line income, then no one's got a job. At the end of the day, when you break it down that simply there's, you know, I think it's an important, it's important role and sometimes it's not, you know, it's kind of classified as a very simple get out there and, and sell. When it's actually it's a bit deeper than that.

One thing that you hear a lot about is sales is this like act of pushing whatever it is that you have onto somebody. Right. It's like I'm going to, I'm going to push this product, I'm going to push this or I'm going to tell them about this stuff that we have. And I think that is a version. I wouldn't even, I wouldn't even call that like good sales. Right. Like in reality when you're trying to sell, maybe sales is like the wrong term because it has this like negative connotation. I think the best salespeople are out there trying to legitimately solve problems that their potential customers have and hopefully they have the best solution to go and do that. Right. And then those two things kind of marry up and then you end up like working together. And I think that's like, you know, a better way to think about sales versus this. Like I've got this thing and I'm going to try and get you to buy it.

Yeah, absolutely. I think for me it's, it's two point. It's how I say, it's first the understanding who you're selling to. So actually who is, who is your customer? Like, you know, have you identified your ideal customer profile? Like is that person in the company you're targeting? You know, is your product suitable for them generally? And then it's to build, you know, authentic trust with that, with that contact and understanding some point it might not generate in a transaction for you. Because that's what a lot of people think of sales. They think of it as like when we sign at the dotted line. But actually it's that wider, it's that wider process. And I think, you know, understanding your products is really key. Like know what you're like genuinely know what you're selling, what your value is like, and then let's iterate it.

That's also an underrated skill because a lot of people, a lot of sales reps literally don't know their products and they don't know them well, and they don't know how they can be applied and they don't know how their customers use them. And so if you don't know your. That is like table stakes is like knowing the product or service that you're offering. Right?

Yeah. And I think sometimes you lose that when it sells it because it becomes about you and your numbers, when actually it should be about your product and your customer. And you're facilitating, facilitating that, that relationship between, between those two entities really. So it's how you can, how you can add real, real value. But in sales we're not, you know, it's not charity, you know, it's not. You're not pro bono. You're not there to sort of, you know, you've got to, there's got to be something in it for you. In the most crudest of terms, you know. Exactly. You're adding value. You should be rewarded for that, you know, and being able to, to kind of really deliver a stellar job for the client and build that trust. And actually you find that, you know, your, your fee is justified and your value is understood. I think that's really important.

I do think that there's a point there that sort of below the service where everyone's saying is that actually we talk about failing fast. We talk about understanding this because if you actually, if you're a rep that wants to add value, I think you have more like a higher number of valuable conversations. And that's because you don't spend a lot of time trying to push something to isn't the right customer. So you go into a room.

Absolutely.

Watch. I've termed this fell fast. But you go into a room and you talk to people. And Harrison says this quite well on our discovery calls. He normally says to someone, hey, let's have a chat and let's see if this is a good fit for us. And it's not whether you are the we can sell to you, it's whether the relationship works in both ways. Because if we can't service what you need and you don't need what we're trying to sell you, it's just going to end badly. So the quicker you get through those conversations into ones where it is a fit, the better job you can do as a salesperson for your company as well.

Yeah, and I think it's. I've done a series on this, like sort of your process over your personality element to it as well. You've got to have good process, good structure. You know, you've got to have a pipeline that as you've got to have scorecard metrics behind your pipeline so you know how a deal progresses in an ideal.

Walk us through that.

Walk us through.

I don't think enough people know what you're talking about. Like, give us like break that down. What does that mean?

So have a sales pipeline in the top. So you know the classic, you know, you'd got your leads, which is your wider funnel. As you go through the sales pipeline, you're refining and refining and refining until the deal really suits your, your process, your, your product on there as well. And I think a lot of people will again be very general here, but a lot of people look at that top line and it's about, we got to put as much in at the top as we can all the time. And actually what you want at that top is you want a steady flow of inquiries that you can service and rationalize properly. So you've got to have some initial qualifier to your point, Nick, some initial qualification, like criteria on there, like which basically rounds. Does my product solve a problem? Am I speaking to the right person? Can they afford, in theory, the service that we are providing? And I think you've got to get to those answers pretty quickly. And it doesn't mean if none of those tick boxes, they might not be a customer in the future, but it's actually understanding that on there as well. And as you go through that pipeline, as you start to refine that customer, you start to then look to add value to the, to the wider business, to get to your end goal. So for example, I would design an engineer space. So it's the fit out of internal real space. So it's then looking at, you know, what is the science that they are creating? What's the business case around why they're doing it? Like why development, why this company? Why have you formed this startup? And then what we look to do is we look to hook the science of the business case basically up to the physical fabric of the building. So it's actually like, what's your process? Understanding what is your requirements, what's your exit strategy? Okay, we can help you on this through, you know, feasibility of buildings, understanding what your requirements are. That's kind of how, how that works. I think whatever product you're selling, you've got to understand what different stages of the journey your customer is on, what are your kind of your key criteria. And it's different for every, every single business. And even if you, your competitors, it will be different, but it's understanding who you are and what your metrics that sit behind you so you can. You've always got something to anchor back to in terms of your pipeline to understand your true sort of value that sits in there really.

Let's take a quick break from the podcast to talk about what we have going on over here at Succession. We work with 40 plus life science sales companies to help them find more opportunities and close more deals. We provide a range of services to support your sales growth. So whether it's increasing top of funnel opportunities with done for you lead generation in person or virtual sales training reinforced by personalized training plans, recruiting top sales talent, or just building custom AI workflows to help make your team more efficient focused on selling. So if you're ready to transform your sales strategy, visit Succession Bio and schedule a call with Nick and I and we'll see how we can support you. Yeah, I think there's a couple interesting things in there, right? You, you mentioned a couple of qualification criteria, right? Like are you talking to the right type of person or do you have, does this potential company even have the budget to afford what you're trying to do? Do they have a problem that you can actually solve? Right. I mean, I think, I think you mentioned a couple of those in there and I do think that there is. And I'm curious, so you're. The stuff that you guys sell is obviously very expensive, but I see a lot of people all the time talk about budget and they talk about budget as in like, do they have budget for this? How can I figure out what their budget is? And it's like most purchases I think nowadays aren't this like super budget driven purchase where they're like, I am allocating this amount of budget for this very specific thing. I think you get like top level companies will like obviously allocate budget for their annual planning, multi year planning, depending on the size of the company. They allocate those down into different departments who then kind of allocate their budgets down to different teams and groups and different projects, et cetera. But I feel like everything is so fluid. It's not like I have X dollars or X pounds that I could spend on this very specific thing. Now I'm sure people come to you with budgets of some variety of like, hey, I got £15 million that I can spend on this build. But in reality that could fluctuate up, down, left, right? Who knows? Because it's like budgets are fluid, but I feel like there's this overemphasis in sales across the board of like, do they have Budget today. Whereas I almost like to flip it in my head which is is there a big enough problem that like they're willing to solve this problem, then budget doesn't matter, right? If, if you can identify the big enough problem, the initiative that is most important to them, they will allocate budget to solve it. And I imagine what you're doing is like probably top three initiatives that the company's going through. So you're probably always aligned in that top problem. Right?

Yeah, I agree with you on this budget question. I think for me it's a question of your value proposition really do they understand the value you bring and the value that sits behind any potential price on there as well? I think as a salesperson that's your job to make sure that the client really truly understands your value, what it is you bring, why your fee is your fee, the price is the price, the benefits that product has and how it could potentially assist that company. Whether that then turns into a transaction and a close, you know, that might be, you know, we don't know that. But it's your job to make sure that you put yourself in the best possible position and identify and then truly look to help the client on that as well. And I think you're absolutely right. The companies as a general rule will spend money on services and products that will help them with their long term vision and goals and then they see a return on that, on that investment on there as well. So it's, you know, it's fundamentally important. It's quite tricky and it's. I think sometimes people are too keen to knock out potential sales because they don't think people have budgets when they haven't taken the time to really start to understand what the journey of the client is. What's the problem? Again, we look at different things. We have budgets on there as well. There's bits when you're taking a bit, you can lease a lot of the project build that a lot of people know about. So you put an office into your thing. You can lease all that furniture against the time of your lease, you're not purchasing it. You can turn a lot of the big expenditure into an OPEX cost rather than the capex cost. It's just takes time to really understand the mechanics and how that deal is particularly structured. You know, if I go to you and said you guys want a new lab facility is going to be, you know, I don't know, 1.8 million to get that done, like sign on here and we'll go and build it, it's you're going to go actually we, that's a massive chunk of money for any, any company about to do that. If you're saying that actually we need to look at the feasibility of the particular building, there's an initial fee here which is less than 0.3% of your potential project build. But that will give you the confidence that you are going in the right direction and this is going to work for you and give you a North Star and actually it's going to save you three months then actually that's a really good step to get them onto that journey and then, and then move it through.

So, so hearing you talk, we're talking from a lot from the rep perspective and what the rep needs to do like the boots on the ground talk with the client. I think there's a lot of onus on the sales leaders to support them in able to follow out this process, find out that information, triage through the pipeline. Because I've worked for great leaders and not so great ones. Right. And often people are like okay, you had one call about this 1.8 million dollar project. Tell me absolutely everything the company needs, when it's going to close, why it will close and who's signing the deal. Like you've got a 10 minute call with somebody as a discovery and now you'll be in pressure to drive it through. And I think that doesn't allow reps the space to build that knowledge and that understanding.

Yeah, if you're starting something that's like that expensive, like knowing the date that is going to close is absurd. Like that's just like wild after one. I mean may they have a hard deadline but in reality there's no way that like in reality those deadlines aren't going to get hit. Right. Like it's just so, it's just crazy.

The level you're speaking at. 28 alcohol can be a lot of money to be able to think. So they're thinking about in the same way as the person you're speaking to what level you're at and the cost as well.

It is and actually it's. You're absolutely right and it's against the different elements of it. We know lab bills are expensive. So people will hear say like you know, million six, you know seven figure sums and go that's okay. That's not, you know, that's about what we're thinking of could be a piece of equipment or some reagents or something like that. There's hundreds of pounds and they go wow, no that's ridiculously expensive. No, I'm not interested in that at all. Like, you know, and it's like. But this is, you know, a tiny, tiny amount to that. It's all about perception, perspective and how you then set that, set the deal up and how you sort of migrate that client through. I think it's.

Yeah, I'm excited. The concept of expensive is all subjective, right? It's expensive compared to what. It's expensive compared to like what you thought it was going to be. It's expensive compared to the value you think you will get from it. It's expensive compared to the roi. It's expensive compared to a competitor. It's expensive compared to doing nothing. Right. Expensive is just like a. Is a subjective term. And I think a lot of reps will hear, oh, that's expensive, and immediately start to try to justify like a price that they threw out there rather than trying to understand what do they mean behind, like something being expensive.

It's one of the big things I've kind of lent into in search for tendency around this is the power of silence in these conversations. So actually one of the big things I've really learned is actually to get comfortable in that silence. So off the back of that question is then to say that, okay, that's fine, I know it's something. Can you tell me why, you know, don't try and fill the space, Let that. And get comfortable and let them explore. Because actually once you then get them to open up, it's like, well, you know, I think it was okay, but I haven't. My boss didn't understand it. It's like, well, we can help with that.

Yeah.

Or like, I don't really understand it like that. And then you kind of dig deeper into what actually is causing the pain. Like one of the things I always try and do, my clients listening, you know, this is what I do. I'm trying to find out what keeps you up at night. Like, what is it that within your company when you get home and you get out of your car, you get in the door, that's the last thing that's on your head thinking, I'd like to get that because I want to try and help with that in terms of a building thing. And, you know, sometimes we speak to companies of all different ranges and it might be that the science isn't going the way they want it to go. You know, they're having a massive issue with recruitment. They can't find the talent. And like, you know, I might know somebody that can Help with that and introduce some, some people actually to relieve a bit of pressure on those, to help you get this, you know, get, get things moving. And I think all salespeople, no matter what you're selling, if you're selling pencils or you're selling huge lab buildings, I think if you can provide that extra support as you can get, you know, onto a trusted kind of one to one kind of relationship with your client and genuinely look to understand what they're like, what the whole makeup of the company is, what their culture is, what their vision, their values are, you've got so much more ability to actually find the right solution for them. If you've got the right solution, like you said, Harrison Price doesn't really then become a, become a factor because they trust you, they trust the product, they know they can see the return on it hopefully. And then hopefully you can then close that deal.

I got a question for you. How did you get comfortable throwing out pricing in the millions? Because I'm sure there's plenty of people here that they just like the thought of saying that hey, this thing is going to cost £7 million, probably scared shit out of them. So how do you, how do you get comfortable throwing out those types of numbers and negotiating? I'm sure like you're negotiating over hundreds of thousands of dollars, which is like some reps, quotas are like what you're negotiating over and you got to understand.

Who'S on the other side of the table. So you gotta, you gotta really acknowledge the experience. And actually are they used to hearing these type of, type of numbers? Yeah, I think if it's within, you know, a startup where, you know, I get. If you're founding a company, a startup, you know, you've all of a sudden got 101 different things coming in. For me it's about managing expectations as early on as you can be on there as well. So it's breaking everything down into small chunks to you get like a start getting initial brief. I will sort of say, okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, let's just pause here a second because you know, we're looking at, you know, and you give it, you know, a range between X and X. You know, is that what you're expecting? Are you comfortable with that? And they're like, oh, well I was expecting. But let me just explain why, why it is what it is at that point and you start to, you know, build it all in sort of step by step, you know, A. It helps the client start to understand what the value of the the product is. But also helps you as a salesperson to understand what the client is looking for at that point, you know, because again, it might be that they've got a perception I need X, but they don't. They need Y. And Y is actually five times cheaper the next. But it will help them for two years and then when they get to that point, hit that milestone, then they can then move on to that. That piece there. So it is. But sometimes, you know, I think sales, you've got to be honest. And if it's going to be X, you got to tell them. You've got to. You know, one thing I really hate in sales is when people try and circumvent the conversation because they're nervous about the answer. Yeah. You know, they don't want to tell the hard truth.

They don't want to hear no. Yeah.

And because you worry about losing the deal because it's potentially a really big deal and this is going to be brilliant for me, but I don't want to tell them that in case they say no. And it's actually, you know, no's not the end of the deal knows not the end of the sale, you know. No, it's just an opportunity to visit and understand.

Yeah. You've not started selling until you hear your first note.

Exactly.

There's one thing you sang about the price and things. And just as a general tip, I've come across with different ropes and I think that you need to. Is it. Often we're used to being told things are expensive because that's a great negotiation tactic for anybody. And then you'll see reps that hit is so much, they'd start saying internally, oh, we're too expensive. I can't sell this. So then they go out and when you watch people that have that mindset go present the price, they don't present it like, oh, yeah. So it's just so and so, like. Like it's worth the money. They present it like, yeah. So the price is. It's going to be around, you know, probably. And then they give you a number and Whether that number's 10 pounds or 10 million, it now sounds expensive because you presented it in a cautious kind of way. And I think confidence in presentation of any figure is one of the keys. Yeah.

And he started negotiating. And they started negotiating with himself right away, too. They're like, oh, yeah, it's going to be. It's probably going to be like around 10k. Hey, we have academic pricing. Or hey, but I can like maybe do something you know, by the end of the quarter, by the end of the month and you know, we can be flexible.

It's like, and I think, you know, it comes down to this bit where you again, this confidence in your pipeline and your, your metrics that sit behind your pipeline, you know, are you actually speaking to the decision maker like, or are you, you know, are you speaking to the person that signs the check like, because if you're not, you need to. Now they might be detached from it, but you've got to have that conversation with them to understand if they're going to sign it. Because if they just, you know, you do all the work with the team in this grain, you've done workshops and you put together an amazing proposal and you're really proud of it and you think this is going to land guys like, you know, and it goes through and then it goes up to board and then it comes back and says board said no. And like why? You know, it's because board didn't understand all the work that went into it. They're just looking at it with due diligence on those, you know, thinking, well, I just, I don't see the value of this. You know, this guy said he could do it for free or they said they could do it on paper. It looks the same. What they haven't seen is all that work you've done with them and understood it. So you've got to, you've got to really understand the decision making tree better, understand what the need is and you've got to have those conversations and speak to people. I think a lot of salespeople will rely on email, rely on tech, anything like all really important and like definitely in early prospecting and efficiency it's good, but please pick up the phone and have a conversation, go and have a coffee, have that human to human interaction. Because from there you will really start to understand what makes that person, that company tick and you'll find the right solution for them.

I think the other piece that's really interesting that you kind of hinted at is there is, there's pretty much always a presentation internally that you're not at, which is the person that is, wants to buy something from you is like okay or wants to work with you, whatever, right? They are most likely presenting to somebody else that says, hey, here's my rationale, here's my reasoning for why I want to buy this thing or why I want to work with this company, whatever it is. You are not as a salesperson often in that room. And what I think we underestimate is how good our internal champions are at selling for us or at selling internally or that they know how to actually sell internally or that they've even done it before.

Right.

You assume we've got this champion, they're going to go and, like, vouch for us. We assume that they know what to do when in reality, oftentimes we're also selling a scientist. Right. And so like scientists didn't learn how to sell. They don't sell all day. They don't talk about your solution all day. And so I think there's this, like, really unique opportunity for sales reps to teach their customer the prospect how to sell on your behalf. When you can't be in the room, you literally get on a call with them, hey, you're about to go into that meeting or whatever. Like, hey, how about we chat like the day before, 30 minutes before, like, let's do a drive run. I'm happy to help walk you through it. I'm happy to coach you. We could talk about, like, I'll help you build out the business case, like, help help them actually help you so that they're prepared for the objections they're ultimately going to get from who they're presenting to. Right.

I think that's so important. And one of the things just to add to that, one of the things I advice don't do is just when you've got a proposal, just whacking that over by email and saying, here's your proposal. Yeah, let me know what you think. You know, book a call.

Especially proposals. Right. If it's standard pricing, it's probably okay, but if it's like a constant proposal, like, there's no way to do that, right?

Yeah, no, absolutely. Even if it's standard, pick up the phone afterwards and just say, does this make sense? I would say walk them through, let them really understand. Given the chance to ask questions like, say, is there anything on here you don't. It's not making Spence or you weren't expecting, you know, you know, just need tweaking.

So the other thing I think's really good. You may appreciate this as doing recruitment in the past. Right. So whenever I've gone for a job interview or something, we were recruiter back in the day, the recruiter would say, ring me afterwards. How did it go? Was there anything you wish you said but that you didn't or anything that came up that was tricky that you think you'd have answered differently as you left the room and then the crew go and vouch for you on that behalf.

Right.

If it happens, you can do that with your client as well. How did the meeting go? Anything come up that we didn't cover, blah, blah. And you can then try and backfill that before they even get to their decision because there's going to be a gap between that meeting and their final decision process. And they may have said, oh yeah, well, you weren't the chosen provider because of X. And you're like, well, you've misunderstood me. We do exactly X. Right. Could that happen?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it, I guess you, you want to, you don't want to be misrepresented, do you? That's the kind of the, the key element on it as well. And I think it's so key to when you're getting towards that bottom of the pipeline, when you're kind of getting towards that close, that's when you have to do the real hard yards. That's when you have to make sure you're front and center. But also be respectful. You're not the most important thing in that company's day to day. You're just one small element of it. So actually make your communication as frictionless as possible. You know, understand their different routines. Don't start calling them when you know they're in meetings on there as well. Just try and find a way that you. I don't know, it's hard to explain, isn't it? You've got to use a bit of gut feel. And I think a lot of sales people lose that a little bit because they, you know, they think that is not quite right. But I've been told I need to do this or I need to have that metric. And actually it's, you know, your client, you know, you've done all the work, you're understanding what the requirement is, you know, your product, you know there's a good match, like you know what to do next. Just don't try and overthink it sometimes. And I think with an introverted type of character, there's a tendency to overthink because you think, well, what if they say this, what if they say that, what if they do the other type thing? And actually sometimes you just got to go and have the, have the conversation and understand what Eric1 is said, I.

Know we're coming out on time, but just because you said we didn't really touch on that point, which is a sort of part of you, that you're a introverted side of things and how you've used that to your advantage, right.

Yeah, literally I was going to be, I was going to ask as the roundup, which is like, hey, give us something that, you know, an introvert who, you know, may not feel in, I don't know, may not feel at home in sales at the moment that something that they could take away, kind of get confidence in themselves, you know, sort of to be themselves.

I do a lot of, I guess, kind of conversations with people who come and ask me this actually. So one of the interesting things from, from LinkedIn and the engagement, I'll often get, you know, a DM or somebody saying like asking me those same things, like I, what do I do on here? And one of the big things around it is networking. That's always a real common one. I can't network, I don't know how to network, I get overwhelmed. And actually it's true, I get it. What you need to understand is that everybody pretty much in that room, whether you're introverted or extroverted, is probably seeing the same way. It's really quite an unnatural thing to put a load of strangers in a room together and get them all to talk and you know, and understand. If you're more extroverted, you probably get more energy. After that you get going, you think, oh this is, this is good, I'm really enjoying this. Nick, you're probably there going really like the next one, bring more and more on, bring more on.

Why are you leaving?

Yeah, exactly. And then from time you get to that, the end of that event, you know, we would come out of that event that you'd be like, right, let's go and crack on and you know, see how we can maximize this. I'm like, you know what mate, I'm done. Like I, I need to put my headphones on, listen to a podcast, get on the tube and I just, you know, I need to recharge and I think, for instance, don't be scared about having conversations but look after your energy like, you know, prepare, try and find some conversations you can have before you go to an event to try and see who's going. So set up some one to one conversations to make yourself feel comfortable. You know, take a deep breath, be aware of your surroundings and you know, after the event you don't have to follow up straight away. Just, you know, look after yourself, take time to relax and recharge and tomorrow's a new day, so that's kind of my, my biggest thing for, for an introvert, I guess. And the other thing is just to touch on is just have conversations like, you know, speak to people, it's really hard, like. But there's a difference between being shy and anxious and being introverted. And sometimes society will label you as quiet and closed because you're introverted, when actually it doesn't mean you're shy, it doesn't mean you're anxious, it just means that you, your brain chemistry is made up slightly differently and you need a bit of time to decompress after, after having conversations and interactions. So, you know, you're doing fine but, you know, look after yourself on the end of it.

As a typical extrovert, I'm going to try and tell introverts how they should behave. But what I would say is one thing, I'm an extrovert and I love those conversations. I love being in those rooms. So I can't tell you how to get over that. What I can tell you is the most uncomfortable conversations I have with people is nothing to do with it. Introverted, extroverted, talkative. It's when I can feel somebody's not sincere, not authentic. So if you're an introvert trying to be something you're not, that's probably going to come across differently to me than being an introvert in that conversation. So I recommend you be authentic.

Yeah, absolutely spot on. And I think that's a lot of mistakes people who are that more introverted character make because they feel they have to be, oh yeah, no, this is great. And you, like, you don't feel comfortable, you know, and sales is about comfort, isn't it, like. Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you for sharing your insights with everybody and hopefully there are some salespeople out there, so maybe some founders that are listening that maybe feel a little more introverted and maybe they feel a little, feel a little better after this. But where can people find you if they have questions and want to chat with you more about this?

Yeah, so LinkedIn is always a, it's a really good, good spot for on there as well. So it's showing those bits just. Adam, Pete, my, my LinkedIn profile known as the introverted sales guys, what it, what it goes on there as well. So really happy to connect with people on there and always happy to have like, you know, a sort of 10, 15 minute virtual call if anybody wants to sort of understand or just, again, just, you know, somebody's had that experience and sort of got through it so they can do that. I've got a newsletter which I run as well, which people can sign up to and you know, I put a few tips, sort of ad hoc through there on that as well. So that's always a. Always a good place to find me.

Great. We'll throw those in the description for everybody, too.

I love it. Appreciate that.

Awesome.

Amazing, Sam.