Women In Sales Roundtable

Athletes look at their own personal increments in their performance. So look at what you're doing. Look at your numbers. Your territory is not someone else's territory. Your clients, your portfolio is completely different from other people. So you know what needs to be done. So just worry about what you're doing and what you can do to influence your. Your numbers. Don't worry so much about any external influence that might be coming from above or other peers to say, well, how many calls have you done? How many, you know, how many deals have you won? Celebrate your individual wins. And the more you do it, the more you realize that the more authentic you are, the more you will win.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Really great to have you here. Really happy to have five of us on the call today. I think that's a record for this podcast. So maybe we just go around the room for anyone that doesn't know you.

Guys and you can introduce yourself a little bit. So I'm Jess Reatbrock. I'm the UK North Account manager for Protein Tech. Nice to be here. Thanks for having us.

I'm Valeria. I am client relations manager for Alphalize, a CRO based in Denmark.

And I'm Sarah Farrer. I'm business development manager for Bite Size Bio.

Yeah, so I'm really excited about today because I did a post a while ago and there was lots of discussion going on in the comments. And one of the things that you guys mentioned a lot and something that I know Jess has spoken about before is kind of as we're thinking about ways as women in sales to build more confidence and change the way our terminology is used and how not to sound kind of unsure of ourselves. There's kind of like a risk there of trying to conform too much to what a kind of masculine ideal of a salesperson is. So we're going to dive into that topic a little bit today. But I thought a good place to start would be to ask a question of. Before you guys got into sort of a sales commercial role, what was the picture in your head that you had of a typical salesperson?

Oh, I remember being harassed by someone. But during my PhD, it was someone who was trying to send me some consumables. And he was literally in the building multiple times a week. And he, you know, despite the fact that I said, not now, he was chasing so much and he put me off so much. I thought, you know what? I never want to be that person. I know now what it was that they were doing wrong. They were never listening to anything that I said to them. But for me it was a question of, no, never, I will never be that person.

I really like how your perspective on that is like instantly recognizing that that behavior is not the normal. Because I think it's easy to sort of recognize that as that's something that I should be doing. But recognizing it as that is not what I want to be doing and that's not how I want to be portrayed or perceived is great.

I think I have a similar first experience because actually my first ever sales role was selling phones for Car Phone Warehouse. And that was an interesting first role in sales. You know, I was in a not particularly fantastic area, let's say. And their ethos was not like as Valeria said, listen to the customer. It was try and sell them the thing that's gonna make us the most money. And I had this horrible story which I've written about actually where, you know, this old, old deer came into the shop and she just needed a little pay as you go phone. And I gave her what she needed, which was a pay as you go fun. And I got told off basically afterwards because I hadn't sold her something that was going to make the store more money, but I'd sold her what she needed because I was leading with ethics and morals. And that was kind of that environment was the first experience for me of sales. And I was similar. I kind of thought it is this for me, I don't ever want to be pressured into doing something I can't do that. So didn't put me off. Clearly the same way it didn't put Valeria off going into it. But yeah, similar kind of vibe, I think.

See, I think my sales jobs, my early sales jobs all did put me off. And I remember having a call with a recruiter just after I graduated and they were pitching this job to me, which was a sales job. And I was like, I'll do anything other than sales. But I think I have a lot of, I think probably resolved trauma Now, I was going to say unresolved, but I think I've resolved most of it. But my first sort of phone based job I used to sell. Do you remember Jess is definitely too young, but in the sun. You used to collect tokens out of the sun but get like 15 pound holidays. And I was the person that you got through to when you went to book those holidays that you were intending to spend £15 on. And it was my job to tell people that they were not going to get any bed linen or towels or electricity and also they would be randomly assigned to a caravan or a lodge and it might be the nicest one on the park. My job was as soon as they rang in to downgrade them to the worst one and then try and upsell them the one that they'd been randomly allocated to. So. So I have a lot of trauma related to that. And I think that probably shaped the. That was a lot to do with the reasons why I didn't want to go into sales. I thought it was going to be Target. I mean, it is targets. You know, you don't get away from targets. But I think there's meeting your targets in an ethical way that is good for everybody. And then there's just downgrading someone to the worst possible lodge when they would have been in the nicest one and then trying to charge them for what they were going to get anyway.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting, like the little experiences that everyone has that sort of shapes what you picture as. Like mine is always. I just, whenever I pictured sales before I went into sales was just typical movie car salesman in like some like old suit with like a really funky tie, just basically trying to sell a family that can't afford this other car. Like something that is probably a car that's gonna break down the minute that they drive out of the car.

Was your picture the guy from Matilda? Is that what you're featuring?

Yeah. I did a talk at the university a few weeks ago and I had that question up on the side. It's like, what do you picture when you picture a salesperson? And I just found like the most ridiculous car salesperson picture. And then as well, on the side I had like a guy in like a business suit, like a middle aged white guy in a business suit with like a headset on, just like making like making call after call after call, just like, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. And that's kind of what I always had in my head. And I think it, it kind of affects like people's decision making of whether they want to go into. Like you said, Sarah, like you had that hesitation to go into it because you feel like you don't want to be that person. But it's just so different from that. And one of the things that really helped me was like getting out from just talking to scientists and talking to salespeople and being like, oh, these guys are credible, scientific background people as well. They care a lot about what they do. They're not just there for the money. I mean, everyone likes money, right? Like we do jobs to pay the bills is the kind of bottom line of it. But there's so many people that actually care about what they do and put a lot of that into their job. But, yeah, I think everyone starts off with that negative image.

It's interesting because I joined sales almost a year ago now, and I had a decision to make because I said to myself I would go into sales, but as long as I wasn't going to compromise who I am as a person, I didn't want to lose myself in the job because in my head, I had this idea that you have to lie, you have to be deceitful at certain points to progress a deal through the pipe. But in reality, that's not the case. And just to add on to what you said, Jess, that, you know, the people that I've been working with, they have PhDs, they're credible scientists, have published papers, and they generally want. They genuinely want to help the client. And so realizing that, I didn't actually see that as a person that wasn't in sales like I was in. I was in the lab. I was a scientist. You know, I'm really glad that, you know, I can sort of see that sort of side of things now, and I think it's important to. To talk about that as well.

Yeah, I would massively agree with that. I think it's interesting that most of our stories, or at least what we all sort of pictured, was a kind of man in that sales role, because that is kind of what I have in my head, and that's what the kind of stereotype is, like, super competitive and, like, really aggressive and really just on it all the time, calling people not caring. And I wanted to ask you guys is, have you ever kind of caught yourselves in your roles trying to take on any, like, specific stereotypical masculine traits because you thought that was what the role needed and. Yeah, how did that go?

I'd had a few crises of confidence, I would say, during my career, where I've thought that I am not enough that person, you know, where I've thought, maybe if I was just a little bit more aggressive or if I was a little bit more assertive, maybe I would have got that particular. So I tend to obsess on, and I don't know if any of you do, I'll obsess on a sale that I've lost and why I've lost it. And then I think, well, maybe if I was just a bit more assertive with him, if I just put this point across in this way. But Then I think about the amount of deals that I've won because I am not that person. And I think sometimes you just need to flip that narrative around, right, that you are. You need to focus on the wins, not the losses. I think, yeah, definitely.

It's really, it's really easily done to. You get bogged down in these spirals of overthinking. Oh, if only we'd done this, if only we'd done that, if only there was more, I could always do more.

More.

There's always this idea of more. And I think it's very easy, especially in an environment where if you're not the sort of person who's always chasing the number, but it's more about building that relationship with your customer, you kind of get done in, into the situation. That way you lose. You just put it down to the fact that you're not that person who's always chasing that final figure, who's always chasing that deal. And many, many times I've found myself in that situation where it's the end of the year and you've got that number to get to. And I find myself just sending random deal quotes, offers and it really doesn't sit right with me because that's not the right, the person I want to be. I made a very conscious decision then when I change companies that I wanted to be somewhere that doesn't push that type of selling because it doesn't sit right with the person I am. And I feel that I am a much more successful salesperson and business developer because of it.

And I think, Valeria, that comes with timing, with experience and with confidence, right. I think if I look at myself when I started out and I'm similar to Sarah, that I, well, Sarah spent longer in recruitment than I managed to. But I started off in recruitment, right, and it was very male dominated and I found myself in a new job straight out of uni, feeling I had to be a certain way to fit in. Both because of the, I guess, gender imbalance, but also because I was early in my career and I couldn't, hadn't proven myself right, I didn't have that credibility. So I was a different person then to who I am now. And probably I was more likely to shape myself to fit the stereotypes back then and to fit in. Whereas now I'm confident and I know that I, you know, I know that as Valeria mentioned, I know that what I do works for me. So I'm confident enough in that to just stick to my guns and be stubborn and say no. I'm not going to conform to be a certain way. I'm myself. And so I think for me it's. If I look at myself when I started and who I am now, that's probably quite different. Even though I'm the same person now, it's just I'm stubborn and confident these days, I guess.

And obviously it takes time to build that confidence and get to that point. But what's more valuable having six of the same type of personalities in a room or a team or of different diverse personalities all bringing in different skills and qualities, I think that's a no brainer.

I think you have to be in the right organization as well. So I think some organizations, if you do not conform to the way that they envisage a salesperson looking, that can be quite difficult to progress or even just to kind of achieve what you need to do in your current role. It can be really quite difficult if you're being pushed into acting in a particular way. And I think for me, I found myself in the wrong cultures in previous roles where I haven't felt the confidence to go, hang on a minute, this isn't okay, this isn't how we do things. Or My approach has always been to build relationships. And for me there have been times in the past where I've been told push numbers and it's not about building that relationship. And I think I'm a bit of a people pleaser. And there's maybe in the past been times where I've gone, okay, I'll just hit some more numbers, you know, and I think sometimes, and I think there is, you know, you need an element of numbers in it. You know, we can't get around that as salespeople you need a bit of both. But I think if the numbers come above everything else, then the relationships, they're going to be affected as a result and your bottom line is going to be affected. Because if you tell people just to keep hitting numbers, they'll hit the numbers, but they won't be doing it in such a way that is beneficial to your business.

Yeah, I think that's a really good point about a team culture as well. Because people might wanting to be being themselves more, but if everyone around them is acting a certain way because there's this expectation from above, then you kind of all find yourself sort of feeling a bit awkward about it, feeling a bit weird, wanting to be a certain way. But there might be actually many people on that team that would rather be a bit more authentic in themselves. So I think maybe My question on that then would be is, is there any advice that you would give to people leading teams about how they can create a more kind of, I guess, inclusive culture, but a culture where people don't feel like they have to live up to those stereotypical behaviors of what a salesperson looks like.

I'll go first on that one. So my first bit of advice would be just to stamp out the bad behavior as soon as it starts to happen. So I have experienced, you know, horrendous things in the past and there was nobody there. In fact, actually there was people. The management joined in, which is the most. The worst bit about it. But really, if you want to create a culture where people feel they can voice their opinions, they feel they can be different, they feel they can be vulnerable. Vulnerable, which was part of the problem that I had. You need to create a safe space and then you need to immediately stamp out the behavior that prevents that and that. It seems obvious, but, you know, I've worked in places where that wasn't obvious and management just let it fly, laughed it off, joined in, in fact, which was horrendous. So that would. That's, I guess, my first. My first thing I would say stamp out the barge behaviour, ensure that it won't be tolerated. That makes people feel more safe to then speak up and say, say their way.

I think as well, if you want to create an inclusive culture, you have to understand what your culture is currently. And that starts with talking to people. So I think if you've got a leadership team that doesn't know their team on a personal level, you know, on a. This is how this person works and this is what their strengths are, and this is how I best play at them, then. You can't possibly craft an inclusive and a diverse culture without understanding what your culture is to start with.

Yeah, definitely. I think having a widespread culture, understanding the culture and having a widespread array of personalities present. So where I work, we're big believers in having a Bell Bin profile when you join the company. And we use that relentlessly to understand how we all work together. So everyone knows now that I'm the one who will have 75 million ideas, start 25 different projects at once, and then kind of get to a point where I'll go, I think I've got a bit too much on, you know, but they know that. And then, you know, I have then someone who works with me who's brilliant because she will say, right, okay, let's. Let's look at what you're doing. Let's see if we can put a framework together that can make it easier for you. So we balance each other out and I think we constantly use that tool to, it's a dial for us to work together. And I think it's a, it's been a revelation to work that way because we've all been to team building exercises where we all do these profiles and then they're great for the day and you know, we're in the roles that we do because we like being around people and yet at the end of the day, oh that's great and that we do nothing with it. Whereas I've seen something like that being put in action has been a big eye opener for me to see how we can understand each other because you might be working with someone who is very numbers driven, very driven by the end goal and results and that's great. That's amazing to have that person as long as you can work with mutual.

Respect for each other.

Let's take a quick break from the podcast to talk about what we have going on over here at Succession. We work with 40 plus life science sales companies to help them find more opportunities and close more deals. We provide a range of services to support your sales growth. So whether it's increasing top of funnel opportunities with done for you lead generation in person or virtual sales training reinforced by personalized training plans, recruiting top sales talent, or just building custom AI workflows to help make your team more efficient focused on selling. So if you're ready to transform your sales strategy, visit Succession Bio and schedule a call with Nick and I and we'll see how we can support you.

That is also I've done similar things in the past actually and they were quite a revelation for me as well because we, we did this as a sales team once and found that even amongst a sales team who you would think will have similar profiles, right? And there's, there's certain stereotypes with that come with being a salesperson, extroverted, outgoing, energetic, blah blah blah. But we found when we did this as a team that actually there was variation, quite big variation in the team in terms of personality traits and the way that you communicate with different people based on that is different. And it was such an eye opener because you know, we did an exercise where opposites basically discuss their frustrations in their opposite partner and you know, to me I am quite frustrated into some personality traits because I'm really energetic and I want to know what you did at the weekend and they just want to go in and talk about the numbers and whatever. And it's so interesting when you dig into that and when you understand the person that's in front of you. Like you said there, Valeria, it's a great example of your colleagues can support you and you can work together as a team much more effectively without. Well, by supporting one another or without offending one another or frustrating one another, those kinds of things. And I've experienced that a similar kind of exercise and I find it really useful. But as you say, actually implementing that later on is the problem. It's great for an away day, but actually do do it in.

In practice. Yeah.

Mummy's company did a make sure that if you think it's clean, that you need the right. And I think that's kind of where the feat comes from.

And I think it's not just implementing it and not making any assumptions based on what you've read on there, because it's all very well doing a personality test. And some of them feel like witchcraft, but they're not necessarily perfect, like representations of who that person is. So I think maintaining open dialogue and not making assumptions based on how you think someone might be feeling. But if you have a reaction within the team that you weren't expecting that maybe you have a chat about it. And I think there is a art to leadership, being able to create that environment where open dialogue's encouraged and people can just voice what they're feeling.

Yeah, I think there's some really good points. I think there's probably two sides of that, of creating like an internal culture where people feel like they can actually talk to each other and collaborate and speak up to leadership. And everyone actually is happy when they go to work and not sat there miserable because they feel like they can't be themselves. But I think there's a kind of other side of that, which is how sales leaders are training their teams to actually go out and sell as well based on personality. Because there's so many, like, training programs and internal, like, training days where you go away and they just sit there and essentially read off a slide deck or open a book that they've read at the weekend because some guy on a podcast told them it was the best sales tactics. And I'm kind of a firm believer that there is not a one size fits all model for like, sales training. They're just really like, you can't teach an extrovert and an introvert the same skill set and the same way to approach clients because one of them is going to. It's like it's a fish, fish climb in a tree situation. And so the same way that people coming from different backgrounds, whether they're from a scientist background or from more of a sales background to start off with, they need different skill sets teaching to them, they need different coaching styles. But then also on a feedback point of view as well, when you go and coming off a discovery call and giving them feedback, you need to actually use those personality tests that they might have done in action and figure out, you know, what makes sense for this person, what's going to make them excel. And like, Jess, you said, like, what actually drives them to get up in the morning? Because it's very different for each person. And if you assume that it's all the same, then you're going to get completely different results from your team and you're kind of setting some of them up for failure. You just have that tunnel vision of, well, I need everyone to be loud and extroverted in a call. And I mean, I'm that person. But I also think there is a lot of strength to being quiet and listening and getting some information out of a client that you might not have done if you'd have gone in super loud and boisterous, like a lot of, I think stereotypical salespeople might be. But I think on that, I would be curious to know whether there was any sort of traits or skills that you guys had that you might have seen as more of a weakness coming into your job that you've actually found is more of a strength and has built those client relationships stronger than you would have thought.

I think for me it was.

Just.

Being vulnerable and authentically myself and just admitting, do you know what? Today I'm not feeling my best. Something's come up. I'm really sorry. Can I. Can we rearrange this meeting? And just being honest with people and just being myself. And the whole reason I started doing what I do on LinkedIn was just to show to the whole point around stereotypes as salespeople just to show that I'm actually a human just like everybody else. And I think my coming back, sorry, coming back to this recruitment job, again, you can see there's Sarah to your point around trauma there, it was very much I was laughed at. I was mocked for being a genuine person who cared about others. Right. For sticking up for other people in the room or sticking up for people who had left even the organization. It was playground stuff. But there it was perceived in the room to be this weakness, which for me, luckily, I've always been a bit Stubborn. So, you know, it didn't make me question my own authenticity. But I've realized now with time that that actually has helped me to build a lot of strong relationships with, you know, with customers or with peers or with colleagues or whatever in. And that they've obviously helped me enormously in my career or just in life. And that, you know, it's perceived very across the board to be, you know, a bit taboo to show weakness, especially as a woman, I guess, and I guess it comes for me as a woman, I think it comes a bit more naturally. It's perceived as a weakness to, to, to show, you know, show that you're having a bad day or, or whatever. And I've realized actually with time, all it does is show that you're a human. And that's what ultimately for me, sales is about two humans or multiple humans connecting and hopefully eventually selling something. So I would say that's probably been my biggest lesson so far for me.

I think that I have been told in the past by some colleagues that I am not to the point enough. So I always describe myself as professionally nosy. I'm quite interested in what people are up to and getting to know someone. You know, like I won't go into a sales call and go straight into sales. And I think in some roles in the past, I mean, I think I was chatting to Jess when I was in one of these roles. Until now, I'd been told I was too nice because I was interested in what people had got up to on the weekend, what their families were doing. And there have been times when I've questioned like, do I care too much or am I not direct or to the point enough or focused enough. And actually sometimes just being a bit sort of non linear, I guess I'm not going straight to the directly to the point that I want to go to. I sort of go around the houses a little bit, but that has built, I think, a lot more robust and a lot more authentic relationships with customers who, you know, I've got some people who I got jobs for or who I spoke to when I worked in recruitment 10 years ago that I still chat to in my role now. And I don't think I would have done that had I gone straight to the point.

That's the difference though, I think, Sarah, I think it's this short term versus long term gain, right? Anyone can go straight to the point and try and get a sale immediately and then as Jess said earlier, potentially have sold something to somebody who doesn't need it or want it or they feel pressured or whatever and sour that relationship. Or you can spend a little bit longer getting to know that person, but have that person have a good relationship with you over a longer period. And I think that's the difference for me in that approach. It's short term versus long term. So it depends whether you want to be in sales for a longer term, in my opinion. Yeah, absolutely.

I think it's, it's a kind of long term conversation that you're building. You are getting to know people, you are. And then when they move on, maybe to somewhere else, you still have that contact and it's all about that network that you build over the years. The most successful salespeople who I know are the people who have a very wide spread out network that they've nurtured and taken care of for years and years and years because they genuinely care about these people. And they like to ask, how are the kids? How was your holiday? Like all of these things. And they're the little things. I can't think of anything worse of going into a meeting where someone is trying to sell me something. Right, this is your pitch. This is what I'm selling you. This is what you're going to buy. This is what you absolutely want to need to get.

So.

Well, okay, maybe, maybe I do. But actually let's do a soft intro into this conversation. I think for me it's always been a bit into a similar thing, into a similar topic. I went into sales thinking, oh God, it's going to be so hard because yes, I care about talking to people, but I'm not competitive. I'm not competitive and I'm talking with all these people, I'm working with all these people who are so competitive and they just want to be the top of the team. And being president's club, don't get me.

Started about Presidents Club.

But it's. And actually what I've realized over the years, back to that experience piece, is that it's not that I'm not competitive, is that I pick the fights that I want to fight. I just get down with it when it's something that I know I've got a good go, a good chance of getting and then I'll nurture it and make it look good and you know, make a blossom rather than just thinking, right, I'm just going to get to the top number just by hook or by crook. And I think it's, it's, yes, just.

A different way of looking at it.

You know, but I know that I Still talk to, you know, customers. And I work in a completely different environment now, but customers who I met, you know, nine years ago, who I, you know, who I just met through, you know, my sales job, I still speak to on LinkedIn and say, oh, you know, mainly about cats and dogs, you know, pets. But, you know, it's. It's a nice conversation topic. And then, you know, if they want to need something or want a referral for something, you know, you use your network, it's just a, you know, different use of your skill set.

I think coming back to the being nice thing as well. I think I said recently on a talk that I gave actually with Jess that it's nice to be nice. And I think that doesn't just mean in a sales call, that can be if a student approaches you and wants some advice about how to get into a science career. And I think, again, maybe historically, some people have seen that as, why are you wasting your time on that? But that's the kind of things that come back around. And I think helping out, you know, the industry's not that big and it could be that that person is not your ideal customer and may never be, but you never know what that's going to lead to or what that's going to come back around to.

Yeah, I think that's really important. Being nice just because you want to be nice and not thinking, oh, how can this benefit me? And the truth is that most of the time it will benefit you at some point, like you said, it comes back around. People remember people that were kind to them, were empathetic, and they're the first person they probably think of when there's an opportunity in their next role or their role in kind of like five, 10 years time. I also think being nice and talking to people about what they do at the weekend, what their kids are up to, is also a really good way to build trust and get people to open up more to you. And then you start to understand how they like to communicate and what type of person they are. And that usually helps with, you know, pushing deals through as well. Even though if it's kind of like a happy accident, really, that it comes out of being nice. Because not everyone likes to be super chatty and talk about what the kids do at the weekend. Some people do. And I think a lot of sales is understanding how your clients like to communicate and kind of aligning with that yourself. And if you go in, you know, all guns blazing, then, you know, you're never gonna find out who that person really is. And what they need from you as.

Their salesperson, I think that's where diverse teams come in as well, actually, is that, you know, it might be that I am not the ideal salesperson for X customer, but I think if you've got a diverse team, there might be someone else on the team who opens doors that you couldn't.

That's a really great point. And I think it ties into what Valeria said about competitiveness earlier as well, is I think in a really competitive culture, even if you don't think you're the right foot for, well, this is my deal, I'm going to take it. And I think there's. Sometimes it's really difficult to balance that really healthy competitiveness, which is like everyone's kind of pushing each other to let's improve processes, let's do things better, and growing that as a team, as opposed to that kind of toxic climbing over each other, hiding information, not sharing tips and tricks with each other. Because it's like, well, if I tell you, then you're going to go do more sales and your numbers look higher than me. And I'm actually an incredibly competitive person in real life. I grew up with like three older brothers for a bit, and like, they were always, you know, very competitive. And that's just in my nature. And it's the way that I am with friends and I can't play Monopoly with family because it just ends up having to be like, put outside in the rain because me and my mom, I sat there going, no, this one's mine. I put a hotel on here and all that sort of stuff. But actually in the. In my role in sales, I feel like that sort of melted away a little bit because I think the competitive came from I want us to win as a team. Like, that was the competition that I want us to do well as a team. And I think so many sales organizations, like, create such a toxic competitive culture and I think they think it is the best thing because it's like, well, if they're all trying to compete with each other, they're all going to do better because they're worried about their number looking worse. But I think it can have a detrimental effect on the kind of development and the culture and actually ending up being better at sales as an organization. So interested to hear your thoughts on whether you've experienced that sort of competitiveness and how you've dealt with that.

I, weirdly enough, haven't been in too many ultra competitive teams. I've been quite lucky that so far and I think part of it is that most of the companies I've been in have been quite small, so they haven't had these ultra. Like there was never, I've never had a Presidency Club. There's never been real, you know, like real. Yeah, that, that, that culture just hasn't really existed. I've been very lucky that mostly we've just all been there to kind of win together. The only level of competition has kind of come, I guess from leadership, comparing different territories and saying this is happening here and this is happening here. And you know, and I'm sometimes not comparing apples with apples, you know, and that, that can be difficult. And I've, I guess it's a cliche, but I've kind of learned now just to compete with myself and just feel that as long as I feel, you know, I. You get the question a thousand times in your career, what's your five year plan? What are your goals? And I've always answered, which people usually hate with I don't have a plan. I just want to get to the end of the year and have done growing in some way, you know, done a good job for the company I work in, learned something new and I'm just building on my own career that I've had so far and doing a good job. And as long as you kind of keep that in as your priority, then it doesn't become a problem. But I definitely agree that pitching each other against each other doesn't help. And ultimately you can leave people feeling very demotivated, which is the opposite effect of what you want. So there has definitely has to be a balance. Clearly, if everyone's just milling about, not really caring about hitting targets and all of that, that's also not good. There's definitely a balance to strike. But I've been lucky so far. I haven't really had too much of the old elbow in out of the way.

Yeah, it's definitely, I think when you, when you end up in a team that cares about winning together, it's, it's much nicer. You know, we all need to have that target in mind. It is the nature of what we do or certainly a willingness to grow. But I spent 10 years in corporate America sales and it started off as we're in it to win it together, to slowly things change. To the dreaded Presidents Club, which every year would make me just roll my eyes because I remember talking with someone one year who'd won it and I said to her, oh, congratulations, you did really well. And it was like I didn't do anything. It was just timing. They were ready to buy and it was just the right time of the year. If I'd have been last year, I had a stinker of a year and everyone else was doing really well. So you know it. And that's kind of that point. But it was pushed and pushed and pushed to the point that last year I was made redundant. I was posting about this on LinkedIn and actually, deep down I was grateful because it wasn't sitting right with me anymore to be in that environment that.

That.

Overly rewards that competitive behavior. So you're either in the top three or you're worthless. But we all contribute to that number. Every single salesperson in that organization is doing something to contribute to that final number. Granted, there will be people who do really well. They really put the effort in. They do need the pat on the shoulder. But instigating that competitiveness doesn't necessarily get the best out of everyone. And it's back to kind of looking at the spread of personality you've got in your team or just hiring people who are just obsessed of the number. If that's what you want and, you know, if it works for some companies, that's great. I just don't think I'll be working there.

We had.

So in tough years, in one of my previous roles, we had a situation where everyone was going after the same customers. So rather than looking at the CRM and looking at like, has this person been contacted? There was one particular customer who I'd put a note on the CRM that, you know, it was when I worked in recruitment, he's going to give it two weeks, see how his advert goes, and then he might ask for some cvs. And I was like, okay, I'll give him two weeks and I'll go back to him. And in that two weeks, I went back when I got my tasks, come up and went and had a look, and there was like six other comments on the CRM. Like six other people had contacted him in that time. And it's like, that customer's never gonna buy anything from us now after we've hounded him. Six different people as well. And when I looked at the emails, some of them were emailing him and they hadn't even acknowledged the fact that there'd been a prior conversation. So, I mean, I think in those sorts of environments, it's not conducive to what we're all working to. And I found that pretty demotivating. And what I ended up doing was kind of almost Getting quite protective of what I was doing and not wanting to share if I'd heard about a lead or something. And so I think in high performing sales teams, you're not looking at just you, you're looking at what's going to be best to get this sale in for the business, not what's going to get it in for me.

Yeah, that's a really great point. And just figuring out where that line is between when it crosses over from this is healthy competition and it's going to help everyone to when it is just detrimental to the business and everyone around them and just people's general happiness as well. I think people should aim a little bit more in companies to just make sure they've got a happy team, because a happy team generally performs better than an unhappy team. And you also keep your staff longer as well. So we are kind of coming up on time, but thought maybe just a last question to ask everyone would be if you could give one piece of practical advice for people feeling like they're torn between being a version of what they think a salesperson should being kind of authentic to themselves, what would that be? How do you stay you when you've kind of got this high pressure sales environment around you?

I think it was being mentioned in another conversation on another podcast that we said about athletes look at their own personal increments in their performance. So look at what you are doing. Look at your numbers. Your territory is not someone else's territory. Your clients, your portfolio is completely different from other people. So you know what needs to be done. So just worry about what you're doing and what you can do to influence your numbers. Don't worry so much about any external influence that might be coming from above or other peers to say, well, how many equals have you done? Have any, you know, how many deals have you won? Just think that, well, this month I did seven meetings more than last month.

Yay me.

You know, celebrate your individual wins. And the more you do it, the more you realize that the more authentic you are, the more you will win because you are working into your own individuality.

I would say just do it. Just be yourself. Just be authentic yourself, authentically yourself. And if it doesn't work for you, then you have to make the decision of would you rather do a job inauthentically or do you choose a different path? Right. Maybe the, maybe the job just isn't for you. I didn't feel at the time and when I was in recruitment that that career path was for me as an authentic person. So I went down a different path and chose a different career and I've managed to make this work. So it's. I mean, that's a very easy way to say just do it.

Right.

But that's.

That's genuinely what. What the advice I would give. Just do it. And if it's not right, then like I say, you make the decision. Either change and adapt yourself a bit or realize that that's the most important thing for you. Therefore, maybe the job or a different company. Right. There's also different variables, like a different type of role, a different territory, a different organization. As Sarah mentioned, company culture has a big impact on this. Right. I can be myself everywhere I go and not fit in everywhere. And then maybe you just need to change companies. That's also something. Don't give up on sales instantly if you can't make it work for you. I would say so.

I would say if you're being pushed to look at the numbers.

When you're.

Considering your narrative, look at the output, don't just look at the input. So there might be someone who is beating you hands down on number of meetings, but who's the one that's got the repeat business coming in. And there's different metrics. You need to look at it holistically and look at the different metrics and the different circumstances. So it could be that that person who is beating you on numbers is beating you because they've got a really nice territory that's really warm and really receptive to working with you. So I think, yeah, I think it's taking into account the whole holistic environment that you're working in and looking at your own individual wins.

Yeah.

I think just to add on that, what really helped me was setting those expectations at the start, before I started my. And journey into sales, of who I wanted to be, how I wanted to be perceived, what sort of targets do I have for myself and what do I aim to aspire and to achieve, but also seeking out those positive influences and making sure that I'm continually learning as well. And I think that sort of helped me a lot. And I'd advise other people and it doesn't have to be if you're just transitioning into sales, it's, you know, even. Even, you know, the start of the next year and just continually trying to sort of grow in your role.

Yeah, I think that's all really valuable advice. I think just to finish on what Jess said as well is I think if you look at your days and you feel like at the end of it, you're taking off a mask and you kind of like breathing out and be like, oh, that's done. Now, then you need to figure out how to get to the point where you don't really feel like you're taking off a mask and, like, you feel yourself all the time. And because it can be exhausting, it can be incredibly draining to take on different personality traits because you think it's the right thing to do. So I think, like you said, Jess, and like the other guys have said, is try being yourself. If not, look for something different. And if you can't, then, yeah, it might not be for you. But I think more people get caught up on thinking that they can't be themselves, and actually they start doing it, and actually it benefits them a lot and it creates a better environment for everyone and maybe they end up a lot better at their role as well. So, yeah, Right. Conscious of time. But I could talk for another couple of hours on all the different topics, and I'm sure that we'll catch up again, probably over either a glass of wine or a coffee at the next conference. But thank you guys for joining us. Hopefully you found this fun as well, and I'm sure we'll see you soon.