TV#4: Why "Great" Products Fail: The Hard Truth About Selling with Suresh Madhuvarsu

Welcome to Rise Up at Work. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra, and today we are unlocking the work life you were meant to live. You're watching Now Media Television.

Welcome to Rise Up at Work. I'm your host, Deepak Bhutra. Here we talk about real work behind performance, the mindset shifts, the decisions under pressure, and the leadership moves that actually change outcomes. Today's episode is called The Founder's Dilemma: Product Sales and Survival in Real Time. Because there's always a moment where every founder hits what I call building, and then he stops doing something because there's a harder part to it, right? And the market starts demanding proof. What I've done is I've actually invited someone that I am deeply appreciative of. I'm being joined by Suresh Madhuvarsu. He's the co-founder and CEO of SalesTable and managing partner for Product 10X, and someone who's lived the builder-to-revenue leader transition in real time. So if you want to see and meet someone who's been set on fire a few times and then put the fire out himself and gone back into the fire, this is the person.

Suresh, welcome.

Let's start with a very simple question. Tell us a bit about yourself. Who are you? What problem do you solve? And what do listeners get out of listening to you today?

Absolutely. First of all, Deepak, I'm super excited to be here on air with you. And first things first, I'm Suresh Madhuvarsu, co-founder and CEO of SalesTable. I've been building for the last 25 years and startups is really my passion and that's really where I thrive. I'm based out of Silicon Valley and for me, it's really about either building or selling. Today, what I want to really share are some of my highs and lows throughout my entrepreneurial journey. And hopefully that'll be super helpful for somebody who is already starting or who started and they're struggling in their own stage in a way. And that's really where I would love to share my experiences and what I've gone through, Deepak.

And spot on, Suresh. That's exactly why we brought you on this show right now. Suresh, you mentioned the topic and I wanna just start into it. I'm a sales coach, right? And you're a founder and you're a serial entrepreneur and you're 25 years. And there are many people listening in who are not even maybe 25 years old, right? So simple question for you. When does a founder realize that building is no longer the hardest part, but selling is? Because you use the word sell. I'm just very curious as to when was that transition, that pivot for you?

Absolutely. The moment When I hit that my product is there and that I'm genuinely proud of and I couldn't get a second meeting, that's when it really hits hard on your face that what's happening. I mean, I have great technology, I have great product, but why are people not interested?

Yeah.

And that's a very hard truth for a lot of founders to take in. And also a very humbling experience that I, really want every single founder to go through that experience. What I realized is that engineering gives you a lot of good feedback. There is a control that you have. You know how to code, you know how to test, you know that there are features that are out there. But sales does not give you feedback. There is no control. You don't control the outcomes when you go out there in the sales. And that's especially the gap between the effort and outcome. I think, you know, that's really where the most technical founders break down. And for me, it is exactly the place and the reason when a customer that I was certain that they would come, they would sign up, they have a first meeting with us and then drop dead. There is nothing. Uh, we follow up, they don't come back. We wanted them to sign up, they don't sign up. That's it. That's the challenge.

So this is really, really interesting because I think in the last few seconds I was like just absorbing everything you said. And this is a very powerful metaphor that you use, right? You are trained as an engineer, and I would say that most founders who are coming in to come in with an idea, right? And that idea is their baby. So now we have you, who is a trained engineer, who thinks in a very product-centric, classic manner, has an idea, believes in the idea, is putting his skin into the game. And now you go from this engineering precision thought process, and you now end up with this customer ambiguity, right? What is that single biggest mind shift that you could kind of introduce to my audience in how you made that move? And when you— because realization is very important, and I think you're an extremely self-aware person, Suresh, right? you picked up and you understood that my engineering mindset has got me to a certain point, but I need to do something different so I can get that second meeting, as you called it, right? Post the demo, follow up, whatever. What was that mind shift that really made you understand what you needed to do to get into a seller mode?

Yeah, absolutely. So for me, as an engineer, I'm the expert in the room. I can solve problems, I can get into I find a problem, get into it deeply, and then solve it.

Yes.

That's exactly a good thing and also a bad thing because now what happens is when I go to these customer meetings initially, it was the point of saying, hey, you know what? Let me show you how great of a product that I built. you realize pretty soon that nobody cares. Nobody cares about your product, nobody cares about your technology. And what they care about is, are you solving my problem? And that's the biggest thing, that the shift that happens as a founder to say it is not about the greatest technology that I built, but it is about the problem. problem that I am solving. And every conversation when we get into the— get with the customers, the more you try to understand their challenges, the process that is broken. That's exactly where I think that mind shift from I am the expert, I'm the product builder, to, you know what, I'm curious, I want to understand your problems. I think, you know, that's the biggest thing that I realized after almost 6 months of rejection after rejections during my first startup.

Well, Suresh, on rejections, right, you and I both agree, even if you are the master of selling, you will face rejection constantly, right? So one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about is that when people face rejection, particularly founders, right, they always go back to that safe spot, which is that engineering mindset, right? The engineering precision we were talking about. How do you force yourself back from this rejection to keep facing the market with this seller mindset? Is there something that you do like a ritual, or is there something that you do to psych yourself up? Or are you one of those people that have just realized that I got to pay the price, so let's just do it, buddy? What goes through your mind?

Yeah, so I'll say this. I think naturally just hiding behind a product or the product roadmap is a natural thing for a lot of the technology and the product founders. We pride ourselves with great technology, great product roadmap, great features, and especially now there are so many AI features that I can build. But the one thing that absolutely hits hard is to say, yes, no matter how many features that you build, the fundamental questions really comes down to, are you selling? are you generating revenue? And that's the biggest thing that I realized, that it doesn't really matter how much of technology that I focus on. If I don't sell, it just doesn't matter on how great my idea is and how great of a problem that I'm solving. And that's really where I have a pretty simple mechanism. I mean, again, it works for me and I've seen a lot of founders do it, which is— Let's say if you are spending 6, 7 hours a day in thinking about product and product strategy and working with your engineering team and all that, then there is a forcing function that I tell myself, today I have to take 3 customer calls no matter what. So now at this point of time, it really forces you to think about, okay, to get to 3 customer calls, what are you supposed to do?

Who are you going to meet? What are we supposed to do?

Correct.

Is it, you know, you are cold calling or are you talking to somebody on LinkedIn? So I think that's really the forcing function that I would like to put on myself so that I am focused not just on the product, but also the sales process on its own.

Suresh, there's so much that you said there, and I, I can tell you, those listening in, a great seller would have absolutely leaned forward as you were talking, right? It's not just about doing the productization, it's also about seeing the bigger picture and actually holding yourself accountable to do the right behaviors, the right mechanical work to get the job done, right? Now, I really wanted to talk about this. We, we speak about listening to a customer on pain. But if I were to ask a simple question, you are a product guy, you want to know about the product. So you're talking to a customer, you're talking to users. What does real customer listening feel like at an early stage when you're setting something up? What would that look like?

Yeah. So when building products, we all start with a few assumptions. I think let's be clear, I don't want to kid ourselves by saying we know about the customer, we know exactly what we are supposed to do. That doesn't happen that way. When we assume a few things, the biggest thing that I always think about is, are you constantly validating your assumptions? That's really the critical part of any startup, and that's really the fine line between somebody taking a rocket ship approach of the growth versus somebody just dying because they are just stuck with their assumptions and the product that they built at the end of the day, right? Would you agree with that, uh, Deepak?

Oh, I, I think you've just actually said something very powerful, Suresh. Assumptions, verification of assumptions, and then doing the course correction. If you don't do your assumption validation, you'll never do course correction.

It's a—

I would say it's a vicious or virtuous cycle. You have to complete it. And I think that's why I would agree with you. Suresh, this has been exciting. What I wanted to do now is we're going to start setting up for the next one. Coming up next, when everything feels urgent, what actually deserves attention first?

Stay with us.

That's what we're going to discuss with Suresh now.

We'll be right back with real stories, fresh insights, and action steps to help you rise up at work without losing yourself. You're watching Rise Up at Work on NOW Media Television. Your ambition built your success, but somewhere along the way, your ambition took over and started running you. Hi, I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra. I'm an executive coach, sales strategist, and host of Rise Up at Work. I've spent 3 decades inside corporate walls, a long time. I've been witness to how pressure rewrites purpose, and when you lose sight of purpose, how the right mindset can help you reset and write a greater story. Rise Up at Work premieres soon on NOW Media Television. Remember, it's time to move from surviving to thriving. thriving. It's time to rise up at work. And we're back. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra, and you're watching Rise Up at Work on Now Media Television. Let's keep reclaiming your career and learning how to truly rise up at work.

Hello, everyone. Segment, we're going to talk about prioritization under pressure. I have Suresh with me. And what if you really want to see more of what is it that we are offering? I need you to stay connected to this show. And every Now Media TV favorite is available live or on demand anytime you like. Download the free Now Media TV app on Roku or iOS and unlock nonstop bilingual programming in English and Spanish. And if you're on the move, hey, catch the podcast version at www.nowmedia.tv, where we cover everything from business and news to lifestyle, culture, and beyond. Now Media TV streaming around the clock, ready wherever and whenever you are. Okay, so Suresh, welcome back to Rise Up at Work. I'm having a lot of fun with been talking. I don't think we're glamorizing anything, right? We're talking absolutely straight stuff right now. What I want to now move into is I want to talk to you about survival and how we get strategic clarity, because at the end of the day, we can't focus on everything. We need to focus on things that matter. If I were to open this segment, I would ask a very simple question, Suresh. How should founders decide what deserves attention at different stages of the company? And I think this is something that I really would love to get from you because you've gone through the full cycle, right? From an idea all the way to selling an idea. going to bed and waking up with another idea? Absolutely.

Um, for me, the framework that I really live by, uh, Deepak, is busy is not a strategy. Busy is a comfort blanket for founders who are scared to face one thing that actually matters right now. I think that that's once I kind of internalize that every single day that really gives me a foundation to think about how I should really take my decision-making process. And I'll say this, right? I mean, after seeing several startups and going through my own set of highs and lows, the question of what deserves your attention actually varies by stage, for sure, right?

Mm-hmm.

the startup is going from 0 to 1, you have an idea and then now you are starting launching your product and then trying to bring in some customers. The question really that we are all trying to understand is, does this problem exist and will somebody pay for it? That's really the first thing. Then when we're going from 1 to 10, which basically means you have a product, you have few customers, Now the question really becomes, can I repeat this outbound or inbound process? Is my product helping my customers in a consistent way to solve their problems? Are they signing up again and again? So the moment we have these questions, those are like very strategic in front of us. And I really encourage for founders to write it down and then hang it in their place somewhere. That really helps because every single day you are looking at that strategic direction, the KPIs that you want to meet. That basically means every time that you have to decide, you are basically deciding based on if I do this task now, Am I getting close to answering that question? That's really simple.

Again, you know, you, you make it sound simple. And here's the reality with most of the advice you've been sharing with my audience. Simplicity is awesome. But underlying all of this, I keep hearing the word— you're not calling it out, but I have a feeling that you've got discipline and a structure. You also have a very simple thing, right? You said you're going to stick up, write it down and stick it up on the wall. And I absolutely agree with you. A lot of people don't believe that slogans work. But this is not a slogan. This is a visual reminder of the commitment you made to yourself. And that's very, very powerful. Now, if I were to extend this, and one of the things that I am personally guilty of, as a founder myself now, is that I did 30 years in the corporate world, right, Suresh? And I exited the corporate world and this untold spirit or this energy that I have, and I become a founder. And one of the things that I constantly find myself struggling with, where I really want you to help me, is that I sometimes feel that as a founder, I am over-rotating on some things, which is what I would call the wrong levers, right? Think of it this way. I need to do a LinkedIn post, very simple example, right? And Suresh, you're a LinkedIn Top Voice, and I always appreciate your writing and how you write and how you try to give your thought process across. But how would you help someone who is falling into the trap of thinking that he needs to spend hours and hours on doing a post? And there's a trade-off. How do you ensure that you don't over-rotate on the wrong levers? How do you do that? Give 1 or 2 tips that would help my audience make sense of this point.

Yeah, absolutely. That's a— the time management is something that we all struggle, no matter where we come from, how we are. And we all will have priorities for sure. But then priorities have to be matched with the time that we are spending.

Yes.

In the simple case that you talked about, for example, I have to do a LinkedIn post. A lot of it, what happens is we actually do a lot of overthinking. Is this the right thing? Is this the right strategy? Will this actually go to my audience in the right way? Honestly, that overthinking is not just about the LinkedIn post, That actually happens with the products that we are building, the sales strategy that we are building, the marketing strategy that we are building.

Yes, sir.

The one thing that I realized over and over again is, of course, you don't want to just do it for the sake of doing it. It's not like you want to do a LinkedIn post, just go post something and then which probably is not of value. Have a time-bound framework. For example, within half an hour, I just have to ideate, write, draft it, review it, and post it. If the idea is for you to have it in 30 minutes, then just force it yourself and then make sure that you complete it. The reason why I would say that is a hard skill that a lot of us are still acquiring and will acquire is the time-bound task is something that actually helps us a lot as founders because you will be dragged in multiple directions and multiple priorities.

Right.

And at that point of time, you don't want to be broken down. You don't want to have issues in terms of dealing with the time. That's exactly where I would say prioritize and make sure that you have the time allocated to complete and force yourself to complete.

Suresh, this is very interesting and I think a lot of people need to understand this. It's not just about time management, it's also about prioritization of the tasks. Once you've done the prioritization of the task, it's also about making sure that the time allocated is what you preserve. If you stated that I want to finish this in 30 minutes, then let's not drag it into a 3-hour discussion or a 3-hour procrastination, right? Focus, deliver, execute. Wash, rinse, repeat. Structure over strategy. Once again, that came through in your conversation. And I know we're kind of demystifying this for a lot of people, right? There are a lot of people who go and study, you know, MBAs and do a strategy discussion and kind of have this very highfalutin notion. And I think what you're doing is breaking it down that at the end of the day, You have to time-bound, keep yourself honest, keep yourself disciplined, and you deliver a product. It's not about over-engineering it or about the quality of the product. It's more about respecting the time that you set and making sure that that's done because there are other tasks that need your support or your focus.

Absolutely.

Great conversation. Suresh, I, yeah, I want to actually not dig into that more, but there's something in what you said, right? There's this illusion that I have done something. So I wrote this post, right? As an example, what is the difference between activity versus traction? How do I know that the activity I'm working on is going to deliver the right dividend, the right traction that matters at that particular point, Suresh? That's the biggest challenge that I'm facing as a founder.

Yeah, so the way I think about it, again, just simplifying it for myself, there is a lot of confusion between activity and traction. The way I think about it is activity is really the motion of things that are happening in a company, in a product, in sales criteria. But traction in my view is that momentum. That's really how I want to differentiate it. Just to repeat, activity is the motion and traction is the momentum. The reason why I want to really separate that out is when we are doing things and when there is a lot of activity that is happening, it's very easy to say, oh, I attended 5 conferences, I did 5 LinkedIn posts, and I did 3 webinars, and then we're all busy. It just feels like, oh yeah, there is a lot of things that are happening.

Yes.

The single thing that I want to ask is, are these activities leading to more of sales, or trying to validate your product, or trying to attract more investors or customers? If that is not falling in any of these 3 categories, then probably all that we are doing is—

Yes.

a lot of busy work, but it is not fundamentally adding to your startup momentum.

I really like that. Let's do this t-shirt slogan that you just called out. What was it? Activity is emotion, something like that. Suresh, give me that one again one more time.

Yeah, absolutely.

Activity is emotion.

Plan—

traction is momentum.

Traction is momentum. And I would simply, just to make this fun for everyone, right? Activity is motion without emotion, and traction is something that gives you this unemotional result that you're looking for. It's an objective that you need to deliver. But this is really interesting. I think I'm going to go register this as a website or a t-shirt slogan for sure. What I want to do now was start setting up for our next conversation segment number 3. What we're going to do up next is we're going to talk about the sales reality founders feel but don't always understand. We're going to talk a little bit about stress, performance gaps, and what enablement should really be doing. And this is where, Suresh, you're going to shine.

We'll be right back with real stories, fresh insights, and action steps to help you rise up at work without losing yourself. You're watching Rise Up at Work on Now Media Television. Your ambition built your success. But somewhere along the way, your ambition took over and started running you. Hi, I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra. I'm an executive coach, sales strategist, and host of Rise Up at Work. I've spent 3 decades inside corporate walls, a long time. I've been witness to how pressure rewrites purpose, and when you lose sight of purpose, how the right mindset can help you reset and write a greater story. Rise Up at Work premieres soon on NOW Media Television. Remember, it's time to move from surviving to thriving. It's time to Rise Up at Work. And we're back. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra, and you're watching Rise Up at Work on NOW Media Television. Let's keep reclaiming your career and learning how to truly rise up at work.

Welcome back to Rise Up at Work. In the early days, a lot of founders treat sales like a switch that you flip on or off. But once you're in it, you realize it's a full-contact sport. It's emotionally and operationally challenging. So we're going to talk a little bit about sales teams and the reality that they deal with on a daily basis. We're going to talk about uneven performance, stress managers, and how sales enablement can help and make sure that revenue is delivered on it right now. So a lot of people talk about sales and talk about it as a support function to the overall organization. For me, it's a strategic multiplier. And what I would like to start off with you is to do a bit of a deep dive into this. What do most non-sales founders misunderstand about the sales function? Is there a myth that you've come across that you would love to demystify for my listeners, Suresh?

I'm glad you asked that question, Deepak, because that's one thing that I fumbled upon early on in my startups for sure. And that's what, as part of Product 10x, which is the startup accelerator that I am part of, we see founders getting into the trap again and again. So let me dig deeper. There is this concept that we call as you build and they come. And it probably happened decades ago when building a product was very novel and only Very few people can do it. But now here comes the internet era, here comes the SaaS era. Now, especially with the AI, anybody can build. Anybody absolutely can build even if somebody is technical or not. What does it really mean? That means there are millions of products out there in the market and now every single product is trying to find their customer. And that's exactly the biggest thing that I have realized, that old concept of, hey, if somebody is charming enough, if a product is good enough, and then if the salesperson is enthusiastic and they're pushy, they will close the deal. And I think that model is gone. That's dead. And the modern buyers that we have, they are very well informed. they are technical enough and they are too busy and they are very skeptical. I think we are now at a place where we are not just trying to compete on the best of the technical or the product features, but we're actually competing on the trust. That's the biggest shift that I've seen in the last 5 years.

For me personally, I've always noticed one thing and I've been in sales now 30 years. Suresh, in some capacity, right? And I realized one thing: the guys that get to the top are literally the guys that have earned the trust. Trust is never given; trust is earned. And I think you gave some very good pointers in terms of that mindset or that myth-busting that one must do and how to earn that trust. It requires discipline, requires a lot of focus. Coming into your area of expertise, you were we. You are the co-founder for Sales Table and the CEO. Sales Table. is doing something very unique. What I wanted to check with you is that if sales is teachable, and if sales is so easy to do, then why is performance distribution in sales so uneven? We have this joke, right? At any given time, you pick up 10 people in sales, 25% will be outliers doing— breaking the number. There'll be a bottom 25% that everyone's going to ask, should they even exist in the organization? And this middle 50%, when everyone's confused with as to what to do with them.

Right.

Why does this distribution always happen despite the fact that we have all these tools, technology, and techniques out there? So help me make sense of this. Why so much unevenness in this performance distribution?

Yeah, um, what I've seen in the last 4 years, um, Deepak, is in most sales organizations, leadership has given in to the fact that They think the 80/20 rule is actually a thing that is out there and only 20% of the reps actually bring in 80% of the revenue, which means they just accept that the rest of the 80% of the sales team that you have are probably not productive.

Yeah.

That's one thing that I refuse to accept. I don't think we should accept at all. deeper thing that it says really is it is not a replication problem, it's not a people problem, it's not a talent problem. I fundamentally feel that is actually a structural problem that we actually brought in because of the inability for us to actually guide and coach the sales reps who want to do a good job, by the way.

Yes.

And that's exactly where, as part of the sales table that we are focusing on, Deepak, and we are trying to really bridge the gap between somebody saying, I can sell, to I want to thrive.

Yeah, you know, it just struck me. I go back to all the companies that I've worked for, and there's this unwritten rule that if you're a sales director or sales VP or a sales manager, there's this ratio that people talk about, right? I think you should have about 7 to 11 people reporting to you. And Suresh, while you were talking, it hit me. We talk about bandwidth, and we talk about focus. And when it comes to sales coaching, our problem is that sales managers are under so much structural strain, just because of a lot of things, right? You've got unreasonable demands, economy shifts. Your customers are also using AI, and they're also getting very skeptical, as you called it earlier, right? You're always looking at shifting sands. You also have this team, very large, complex deal that you need to work with.

Yeah.

You cannot be everywhere at the same time. So there's a lot of structural strain in the system. How do you feel the sales managers can manage this strain and how can SalesTable help them perhaps?

Yeah, absolutely. The way I think about it is sales managers, most job descriptions, if we see, Deepak, and you've seen it much longer, there are 2 things that sales managers are supposed to do. One, really think about the sales strategy and make sure that the territories that they're assigned or the products that they're assigned are doing in the right way. That's the strategic part of it. The second one is the coaching part of it. And now when I talk to hundreds of sales leaders, I think you will see one trend. Some sales managers either rotate too much on the strategic side of it, which means, yeah, they just don't have time for coaching. On the second hand, there are some who over-rotate on the coaching side and they don't have zero time on the strategic side of the things.

Strategic side.

Deepak, you mentioned one thing which is very critical. Structurally, that is broken, and there are a lot of performance issues, mental health issues that a lot of the middle management is going through right now. And that we feel at SalesTable is not okay. And the way we are trying to really bring in the scale of the competence for the sales reps is really by saying, hey, we have this great technology, the artificial intelligence, generative AI.

Yeah.

And how can we leverage the technology in a way that actually gives enough skill for the reps to do great at their job and give visibility to the managers so that they know that the reps are having the right amount of coaching, the objection handling mechanism, they're ready to actually take the deals. And that's really where we are trying to bring everything together with Sales Table.

So Suresh, here's the fun part in this entire conversation. If I just look at my own history, right, roles change, titles change. We've gone through sales operations, we went through revenue operations, we went through our revenue officers, we went, we Here's something that's always bothered me, right? The definition of sales enablement. Would you agree if I say that it's become disconnected from revenue outcomes, or have I misunderstood? Or maybe revenue outcomes have changed in a hypercompetitive space. But how would you define sales enablement from your point of view? And what would a truly performance-driven sales support structure actually look like? What would that ideal model look like for you?

Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that I really look at when I'm talking to sales leaders is understand their deeper pains, Deepak, in a way. Because what a lot of people are saying is not that my sales reps don't have training. I don't think anybody says that, by the way.

I would agree.

I would agree with you. Yeah, what they are saying is My reps are not hitting the quota. My reps are not winning the deals. There are some reps who are losing a lot of deals. That's really where we feel the sales enablement or revenue enablement should exactly focus. And what does it really mean? To make it super simple, are my reps ready to actually deal with some deals? When their reps are actually on the phone call, are they doing the right discovery calls? Are they doing the right demos? And based on those live feedback, are we kind of going back and then providing that training again, the coaching again, in a way that becomes more of a feedback loop?

Yes.

So now coming back, it is really about the pre-call preparedness, on-call nuggets, and post-call suggestions. Everything should come together.

The entire—

That's exactly where the enablement should tie together and say, you know what, because of this coaching, the role plays that you have done, you actually closed this deal because we know exactly that previous few deals, you were not doing the right demo aspect of it. And that's gold.

Wow.

That is gold. I assure you, it is gold. And I'm telling you, I'm listening and I'm saying it's gold. So I'm gonna start wrapping up. What I really wanna do is, Suresh, you mentioned the magic word AI, and guess what? Our next segment, is AI replacing sales roles or redefining them? And what mindset keeps professionals indispensable? Let's talk about that next.

We'll be right back with real stories, fresh insights, and action steps to help you rise up at work without losing yourself. You're watching Rise Up at Work on Now Media Television. Your ambition built your success, but somewhere along the way, your ambition took over and started running you. Hi, I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra. I'm an executive coach, sales strategist, and host of Rise Up at Work.

I've spent 3 decades inside corporate walls.

long time. I've been witness to how pressure rewrites purpose, and when you lose sight of purpose, how the right mindset can help you reset and write a greater story. Rise Up at Work premieres soon on NOW Media Television. Remember, it's time to move from surviving to thriving. It's time to rise up at work. And we're back. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra, and you're watching Rise Up at Work on NOW Media Television. Let's keep reclaiming your career and learning How to truly rise up at work. Welcome back.

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So we're back.

This is the final segment of Rise Up at Work. We spoke about identity, founder mindset. We spoke about prioritization under pressure. And we also spoke about the real mechanics of sales performance and what coaching looks like today. Now I'm going to zoom out a bit. Let's bring Suresh and put him on the spot. AI is around us, and AI is forcing a new question: What is value going to mean going forward? So, Suresh, let me ask a very open question and see what you can do with it. Is AI replacing sales roles or redefining them?

Yeah, the trap isn't exactly AI in my view, Deepak. It's really about we need to think about how do we want to do with human judgment? How do we want to do with trust? And how do we want to do with clarity? Those are the 3 things that I keep thinking about every single day. Most importantly, the baseline for all these is the ethics part of what we are really trying to do. The reason why I'm talking about those is I feel it's adding AI capacity without adding human clarity is the biggest problem. I always think about—

That's another t-shirt slogan right there, boss. That's another t-shirt slogan right there. I'm going to have so much fun making millions of all your slogans. Thank you, Suresh. Sorry for interrupting.

Carry on.

No, my point really is, Deepak, we've seen again and again with any technology that is out there, and especially true with AI, AI doesn't replace judgment. AI doesn't replace the trust between 2 people that is really coming in. Again, whether somebody is in the sales or product development, honestly, it doesn't really matter. But then there is something about that human connection that we all crave for. The businesses that we all do is really a human business at the end of the day. That's exactly where I feel When we think about the AI replacing jobs, the way I think about it is we should really look at every single rep, every single sales leader, every single manager. What are they doing on the daily basis and what are the items that are probably frustrating for them, that are mundane, that is probably very repetitive? All those things will of course be done really well in a repetitive way by AI with a high precision, that's for sure. But where humans will be spending a lot of time is really in making, bringing in those relationships, making sure that that trust is done between the leaders. Again, it is not just limited to what we are doing with sales. Deepak, but for the leadership, for the employees, for— it doesn't really matter which department you are in an organization. Everywhere, the whole aspect of trust, judgment, human empathy are the things that I feel will become the new skills that every single person have to bring in, along with, of course, the AI, skills that they need to bring in. From that, coming back to your straightforward question, Deepak, I don't necessarily believe that any of these sales roles will be taken away by AI. But if people are not willing to learn AI, they will. Absolutely, that's for sure.

Let me ask you a yes/no question. I believe this from the bottom of my heart, being an extremely competitive person, when AI first came out about 3 years ago, and when I got introduced to it, I must be honest with you, Suresh, I was yawning because it went over my head. I said, what's even the intent and purpose here? And it was pretty ridiculous. You would ask a simple thing, it'll give you some concocted answer which didn't make sense. Unfortunately, in my naive point of view, I did not see, and I could not see a roadmap or a forecast. But if I look back at it now, the way it has jumped in leaps and bounds, and in terms of the value that precision, as you called it, right? But there's something very valuable in what you said, because I, I still remember, you know, I was explaining this to one of my people that kept producing work which was always on time and under budget, but the quality was so bad that I could make no sense of it. So I realized that precision is important, right? Precision is important, and that's what AI does very well. But making sense that what is being done is actually of utility and delivers what was required is still a judgment call, particularly in sales. You and I are talking right now and you give me a price and I lean back. That's a judgment call that you will make in the moment, right? And I— my grandfather used to always tell me B2B stands for belly to belly. And now it's become even more precious because as you see this onslaught, right, as you see this onslaught, you have to ask yourself.

Yeah.

Let's keep talking about AI. The statement I'm going to make, which I just want a yes or no answer, is that AI won't take your job. Your colleague using AI is going to take your job. Would you agree with that statement? 100%.

I think this is also the point you made. Let me qualify on that one. I think what's happening is there is a lot of folks who are basically saying, you know what, there is a particular way that I sold or there is a particular way I develop products or services. That's the only way that it will work and then AI is not doing anything. I think those are the people, unfortunately so, will be absolutely replaced by the people who are very curious, who are learning these AI tools and who are really saying, you know what? Yes, I'm really good at the craft of, let's say, sales or product development or whatever that you are.

Yeah.

But there are these AI tools that are helping me to get better, to not just, by the way, 10% or 20%. The AI tools are making you better in terms of 5x or 10x sometimes even. And that's something that we all have to acknowledge at this point of time and make sure that we get the right set of skills at this point of time.

you more. And there's something very powerful in what you said, and let's talk about this a bit more. And, and it's not a digression because I want my listeners to actually focus on what you just said here. We spoke about incremental gains, correct? And if you just look at the maths behind this, to get to 6x, you don't need to get AI to give you 6x in one day. But if every day you're using AI the right way, you're using unorthodox techniques, you're looking at AI as a devil's advocate, you're looking at AI and asking a simple question, Did I miss something? What other options were there? And when you take that approach, now I just said to you, Suresh, that 3 years ago I wasn't sure where AI was going. And now I can tell you right now, you are spot on. In my own personal reflections, I've actually realized the way I think about things, the way I am actually absorbing information has been tremendously differentiated by the use of AI. And I think this is where prompting and how you go about doing it is so critical. And that's why there's another point you made. I want to connect the dots for my listeners. Getting hands-on with AI doesn't mean that you're going to produce something that's going to be enterprise-grade. But my own brain exploded when I started prototyping my ideas. I want to tell someone what my company logo should look like. In the old days, you would give a metaphorical discussion and wave your arms in the air. Now you can actually give them a numerical discussion, actually tell them, I actually asked ChatGPT, or I went to this website and actually said, give me a couple of samples. I like this one the most. Can you help me modify this? And then you have this last mile intervention, right? And that is what's been so profound for me. Previously I would write an email and I would stop it. Now I actually can sit with AI and actually ask it, what would happen if this email were to be done this or the response was this? And then I start playing what I call 3-dimensional chess than just dreaming or thinking about it. Love it. Suresh, let's just kind of accelerate because I really wanna get some more nuggets out of this one, right? Suresh, as someone that is talking to sales leaders on a constant basis, sales leaders are confused out there, right? How should sales leaders evaluate AI tools without increasing complexity? What would you recommend to them?

Yeah, absolutely. So right now I think there are 3 biggest challenges that I see sales leaders are looking into, or rather any leader adopting the AI. Number one is really getting confused with the AI adoption and the AI strategy. That's number 1, I think of it as. Number 2 is using AI to scale a broken process.

Yes, that's my personal favorite. Yes.

Number 3, underinvesting in the human side of the AI adoption. Let me give a little bit into each one of them. I think buying tens of tools doesn't help. You need to set an AI strategy as to say, within the process that you have, what is it that you want to rethink? What is it that you want to invest in a way that AI can help? I think without thinking that, just because you found these 10 different or 50 different AI tools that are really great in the market, please just don't jump in at all. Make sure that you really think about the strategy on what you are thinking to making sure. Then is your team ready to make sure that they are taking up the AI, they are looking into the tools, they are thinking about their day-to-day jobs to be done with the AI tools? It is actually a mix of Talking to your team, making sure reinventing everything is very important.

So Suresh, you've just said so much, and I'm just curious, if people were to try to look for you, where would they find you? How do they reach out to you?

So I'm very curious on what everybody is building that is out there, especially in the AI space, whether it is for the sales sales tech or not. And I would love to meet with founders and help them in whatever I have learned from my own mistakes and some right things, some probably not so great decisions that I have made. So I'd love to connect with you on LinkedIn. You can find me as Suresh Madhuvarsu, which I'm sure we will provide as part of that.

I will put it, yes. Yeah.

Second, please feel free to reach out to me over suresh@salestable.ai or suresh@product10x.com as well. For me, it's really the question of I'm really excited about what the founders are building out there with using AI for the industries. Vertical AI is something that I'm really curious about, and that's exactly the reason, Deepak, I'm Absolutely thrilled on what you guys are building with RiseUp.

Thank you.

So this was Deepak at your service. Suresh, thanks for joining us. And thanks everyone for watching RiseUp at Work. If this episode challenged you how to think about product, sales, and survival, please share it with the founder. Talk about Suresh with other founders. Someone out there needs us. We'll see you next time.