Ayahuasca and Its Impact on Leadership

Hi, I'm Susan Drumm and welcome to the Enlightened Executive where your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. Each episode we feature groundbreaking techniques and strategies to help you get the edge in personal and leadership effectiveness and a different dream office backdrop. Today we are going to focus on ayahuasca and we're going to learn a bit more what it is and how it can actually help you personally and professionally. And we've got a very special guest who shall remain anonymous and we're going to call him Dave. And he's a very successful venture capitalist, been in Silicon Valley over 20 years, working 20 years and holds an MBA from Stanford. So Dave is with us today to describe a bit about his experience and how it's helped him. And the reason I'm talking about this topic is because I've had an intense curiosity about it. People have asked me some questions about it, including very prominent executives. And I think more and more executives are learning about it. However, most of them need to go overseas in order to do a journey. So let's dive in, let's find out a little bit more about it. And welcome. Dave, thanks so much for taking the time.

Yeah, glad to be here. Thank you.

Awesome. So tell us what for people who don't know ayahuasca, or maybe you've just heard the name but they're not quite sure what, what can you tell us more about what it is?

Sure. Ayahuasca is a psychoactive brew. It originates in South America, known as an entheogenic brew, meaning psychoactive. It it's actually brewed from two vines usually found in the rainforest or the jungle. The Banisteriopsis captivine and the Psychotria viridis shrub. They both come together for a specific reason. One of the plants contains the psychoactive compound dmt, a naturally occurring substance often found in certain plants supposedly produced by the pineal gland at the time of birth or death or near death experiences. And also the other plant acts as a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, an MAO inhibitor. And what happens with the magic of these two combined together is that DMT is quickly usually synthesized in the human body and doesn't have the ongoing sort of psychotropic effect. But the MAO inhibitor acts to prevent the breakdown and keeps the psychoactive effect going for several hours. And the two combined create a very potent brew which usually drink in the proper sentence setting, guided by a shaman who usually has devoted his or her life towards working with these plants, knows them intricately and brings sort of their indigenous culture, indigenous wisdom in this type of setting. And so, like with all of these types of psychedelic tools, the step and setting, as they say, are really crucial to them as they're to be done within certain containers and for people holding space for you, making sure you're safe, making. Making sure you're not going off the rails. And arguably, they're kind of guiding the energy, the music, the setting to kind of provide the journey that each person needs, depending what they're working through when under the influence of this group.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, mostly makes sense. I imagine some of the terms around what it is. You did a great job describing it and what's happening, but tell me a little bit about what brought you to do ayahuasca.

It was primarily for the notion of self, introspection and growth. And what ayahuasca is often known to be able to do is help each person go into their lineage, unpack patterns or loops, and especially epigenetic trauma. And so the way I've described it is imagine ayahuasca decompiling you so that you can step outside of yourself and even look back into your lineage, know your ancestry, and kind of see maybe from an outside perspective, not so much stuck inside your own head and narrative, all the unresolved, you know, emotional baggage, the trauma, those things that were inherited to you by your parents and their parents before them, and on and on and on. It can be really healing sometimes for dealing with that type of bloodline trauma and understanding your own loops and if anything, just getting out of your own neurotic story sometimes. And what's beautiful about that is, as you integrate, you realize you have this choice of, huh, okay. See, these little parts of me, where they come from, I have more empathy and forgiveness for, you know, my parents, their grandparents, et cetera, where that came from. Do I want to keep this little loop, this building block within me as I continue to go on?

Tell me more what you mean by loop, and maybe you can explain. So what did you. What did you get out of it?

I have a saying that to understand why any institution, organization, or business does what it does, simply look at where the money flows. Just study its business model. You'll understand all the incentives and why it behaves the way it does for an individual. All you have to do is look at his or her core wound. What is it? That is their deepest unresolved trauma, and that'll pretty much explain 99% of their behavior or choice in any moment. That's all any of us is. It's just a collection of these unresolved emotional baggage and core wounds we're overcompensating for. There's a famous saying, we are most passionate about that which we are most denied. So ask any founder, ask any successful executive, there's probably some form of dysfunctional ambition behind it to compensate for something. Daddy said you weren't good enough. Somebody picked on you and said, you'll never make it, whatever it is, right? We are often overcompensating in functional or dysfunctional ways. And it's really powerful. It was powerful for me to understand, why am I so driven? Why am I a relentless machine trying to achieve? Who am I trying to impress deep down? Where does that come from? You know, what, what is the real motivation behind these things? There's the surface motivations do well, leave legacy, you know, impress people. But there's often a deeper why. And there's only two cardinal questions, really, at the end of the day. The first is, who are you really? Peel away all the surface layers. I'm a vc, I'm a father, I'm a husband, I'm a. I'm a son. You can always peel away and double click one layer deeper. And for me, I found if you really go down that rabbit hole far enough, I came to answer, you know what? I am nobody. I'm also everybody. I am also God, him or herself, as we all are. And the second question is, what do you really, really want in this life? Really? And again, start from the surface answers. I want to matter. I want to fit in. I want to prove I'm good enough. I want to be successful. I want to leave legacy. But if you ask the question why, underneath each of these layers, peel them away, peel them away at the bottom of the onion, at least for me, I found a simple first answer was, I just want to stop wanting, you know, stop chasing, stop that craving and that then set me free to think about. Okay, well, if you're not craving or chasing or striving, what is there left to do but live your life like a work of art? And within art, your job is to find your medium, your canvas, your paintbrush, your form of play. And that's skewed me more towards having a North Star of understanding. Oh, actually, none of this is about me. I'm here to serve. I'm here to help others heal, enable others to play, you know, bring about the thriving of all beings. And that's a profound shift, I think, in the lens you take in everything you do at the office, at home, with Your friends and your community.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I mean, what I noticed, and really is the foundation for my book is people just leaders just keep living over their childhood wounds, over and over in the workplace, getting triggered by something someone said. It has nothing to do with what's going on. It has everything to do with what their mother said to them. And so in order to help them grow in leadership, to look at, wow, how do we unwind these childhood wounds? And how do we get conscious? And this is one modality to do that. And that's why it's been kind of fascinating. And I love this phrase, you can't read the label from inside the jar.

Yes, exactly right.

My sense is this helps you step outside yourself to read the label so you get clarity. And you're at choice now not to be run by the wounds. Is that.

That's absolutely right, Susan. Sometimes many of us, you know, hardworking, ambitious, a type executives, we are masters at saying the right things, compartmentalizing, rationalizing, deflecting, deceiving ourselves. And some of us need a nonlinear event that really kicks our ass, so to speak, and puts us outside of our head where our stories are so tightly and airtight constructed to step outside of our stories and view outside in. Like you said, when you're outside the jar and you can read the label, you're like, whoa, I didn't know I had that. And then for me, where that went was, man, as cliche as it sound, it all stems from childhood. And, you know, that's the kind of stereotypical thing is like, oh, mommy and Daddy did me wrong. It's more also having empathy for them. And then, yes, you know, you work through your anger on those childhood wounds, but then you can also develop tremendous compassion, empathy, forgiveness, you know, love for your parents when you realize, man, they were just doing the best they could and they themselves inherited sort of the epigenetic baggage from their parents and on and on and on, and it's. It's a beautiful resolution within to be able to start to heal, you know, that sort of lineage wounding.

Yeah, yeah, phenomenal. So we. So thank you for a little bit more depth on why. Why one would want to engage on this. Could you share a little bit about what the experience is like or what should people know? I mean, obviously sometimes you don't want to give away all the experience, but what can you share with people in terms of what happened to you?

Sure. My first experience was word of mouth. Just as a word of advice for folks. If you ever see A quote unquote shaman marketing their services, Instagram ads, and trying to be an influencer run the opposite direction. I would say true medicine workers have devoted their life to this practice. And in places where it is not legal, like the United States, they're risking life and limb to do so. And so it's typically word of mouth referral to folks who are really serious about the work and they are not promotional about it. They're often very, very humble to this. That said, ayahuasca's reached sort of mass awareness now. It's been featured in TV shows like Billions, right, where the hedge fund manager does it and decides he's even more determined to rule the world and be a master of the universe. But typically with a shaman, they'll have it in a very quiet setting, usually in and around nature, usually with a very small group, well curated. I think a good shaman will often take maybe even a full day to help each person figure out their intention, what is they want to explore. Interestingly, what you go in with, the question you seek to ask will help shape your experience. And even forming the right questions is an important part of it. I remember once going in and forming the question of how come I always, or why don't I ever? And I remember the shaman pointing out, does that question really serve you? Meaning what are the assumptions and biases in that question? What doors can that question open? If you phrase it like how come I never? There's already so much assumption and weight buried into that. So even refining your intention or question is a key part of that inquiry. There's also something known as the dieta, which is usually about 10 days of preparation beforehand, where you start to cut out elements from your diet, including alcohol, salt, sugar, abstaining from sex, things like that. As you sort of just clear your body energetically and chemically for this journey you're to undertake so that your body's maximally sensitive to this new kind of sensory input you'll get when the time comes. Usually it's around early evening, as this is a nighttime inward experience. You are in the ceremony setting place. The shaman will have the brew already prepared. It will usually open the container, say some prayers, and set the spiritual container of it with indigenous practices, has a variety of traditional instruments. And then each person is called up to sit and drink a cup full of this brew, which is not the best tasting in the world. It's very, very earthy. Some people don't mind it, some people find it, you know, triggering their gag reflex. But it's it's very earthy. It's, it's roots, it's vines, right? So it might taste like really harsh, say herbal Chinese medicine or something, but you force it down and you go back and you sit. And from there the shaman will usually start to sing traditional songs and ch and prayers with traditional instruments. And you close your eyes and it usually kicks in after about 45 minutes or 60 minutes or so. It is often a 8 to 12 hour ride and during that time you may experience waves of nausea. It is really common to purge or vomit and you usually have a bucket next to your mat. And I know that sounds really nasty, but interestingly I found the purge is a key part of the process. It's symbolic of letting go of stuck energy, stuck stories, stuck loops. And it's actually an important part of that experience. And you may be sort of throwing up multiple times through the night. But like I said, there's an energetic part of this process that goes with that. Right. Usually deep into late night, probably 3, 4am Ceremony may close out when people are kind of complete with their journey. Then you go back and sleep and some people stay up and journal. But it's advised that you take a good day or two, maybe a week after, to integrate, which is don't go right back to work. Also, it's commonly advised don't make big life decisions, don't go quit your job, don't go declaring you need a divorce or whatever. Don't go make some major purpose purchase. You might feel wide open and having deep revelations of like, oh my gosh, I've been living my life all wrong, I need to do this, that or the other. Those aren't necessarily directives, they are questions and clues for you to go meditate on after. But usually it's quite a reflective experience for that week after as you really look into it and integrate those lessons. And so that's a term people use a lot, integration, which is taking those questions, prompts, visions, realizations during that journey and figuring out how do I work that into my default life after. And that's where the real work begins. So I like to say these molecules are just the doorway. The real medicine is the ongoing integration and the lifestyle changes you make from thereafter.

Absolutely, absolutely. And so thank you for that, that explanation about what the experience is like. I think it's super helpful. What would you, what would you say to. I don't want to use the word skeptics, but let's just say some people who maybe they're a little concerned is this Dangerous? Is this healthy? Will it have lasting effects? Well, obviously you want some lasting effects because that's why you're doing it. But just kind of health wise, what should someone think about, be concerned about? Is it okay for any constitution? Are there certain people that shouldn't do it that you know of?

It's not a silver bullet. It's not for everyone. The intake process by a skilled shaman. They will go through your medical history. They'll ask, do you have a history of mental health issues, particularly schizophrenia, you know, bipolar disorder, things like that. As psychoactive compounds, psychedelics with certain mental health states are risky. They could trigger, you know, kind of psychotic breaks. And so they'll be carefully looking for that. They'll also carefully ask, do you already take MAO inhibitors, SSRIs, antidepressants, et cetera? Those would not make sense to take because if you're doubling down on another MAO inhibitor on top of other ones you're taking, that could pose serious health threats. So skilled SHAMA will walk you through all the preconditions in the intake process. So no, it's not for everybody. It's also just, I'd say emotionally speaking, you want to be ready to do this work. If somebody's dragging you in this kicking and screaming and doing it because all the cool kids are doing it, it's not the right reason. You want to come in curious and ready to do some work. You know, this is not a psychedelic joyride. This is man, this is like soul cycle for real. You know, it's like, it's a, it's a soul workout. I would even argue it's like 10 years of talk therapy in 10 hours. You know, talk therapy you can get so far. But we're so good, especially you know, charming executives who are intellectually brilliant. You can talk your way around anything, even to yourself. This type of medicine, which is experiential, goes past that. It's, it's post verbal. It can trigger so called ego death. And done well, done right. You know, it will take you beyond sort of your reasoning and words that you often dance around.

Yes, yes. Everyone that I've talked to that has part has done it, has had a good experience and would recommend it. I'm curious to know if you've experienced anyone who did not or had some impact that they didn't want to have.

Yeah. Multiple experiences.

Yeah.

In general, it can be great. It can also be terrifying. It can be a nightmare too. A few specific examples. If you do decide to try this out of country or in country Again, try to do some due diligence on the background of the shaman. You know, if they are Instagram influencers, a sudden guru and decided they took ayahuasca and want to be a shaman, now you might want to think twice, right? Because they might not really know what they're doing. If they market heavily and meet you at the airport, saying ayahuasca retreat on sale might not be the right one too. And that's happening. There is such a thing as ayahuasca tourism in certain places. You know, again, watch out for those. Try to get word of mouth referrals. If you see that they're doing a huge group of 50 people in one sitting might not make sense. You know, not to sound too woo, but other people's energy, their experience will affect yours. And a shaman can only tend to so many people at once. All my experiences were done in really small groups, usually six people or less, because the shaman spends time with each person, is trying to figure out the right sort of journey and space to hold for the different things that people are facing. So I'm not a big fan of large groups, not a fan of, you know, heavily commercialized versions of this. Right, yeah. So look out for those and beware of the fake guru shamans. That's it's become so popular now and it's like spirituality is new hipsterism. And so there's going to be a lot of like shaman wannabes. And so if they're a trustafarian 26 year old from Orange county who's decided that they've got a new shaman name and are doing these things and Instagramming it, that's probably not the right energy as well.

Yeah, yeah. Have you done it? It sounds like you've done it several times. Is there a, you know, is one not enough to get you keep peel. Is it sort of an onion that you keep peeling? Is there a point where you're doing too many, where you become sort of that type of retreat junkie of the.

Yes, great question. Tell me about that. Thank you for bringing that up. That's very much a dragon people chase sometimes and it's because they get addicted to the vehicle, not the lessons and the integration, which again, that's the harder work. Oftentimes an intensive retreat might have you drinking two, three, four times in a row. And it's because sometimes the first night is just the opening, getting your body used to it, kind of cracking you open. And the second night you go in a little bit deeper to investigate issues more broadly and Your system is more ready to kind of drop in more quickly. So I would recommend if you have the chance to do a sitting, where you do two or three sitting, three sessions of the medicine consecutively, that can help you go really deep. A retreat I went on that was very effective was one day of preparation, forming the inquiry, you know, then the sitting, then a full day of integration, journaling and then preparing inquiry for the next sitting and then a sitting the day after, followed by another day off. So it was, it was a full week, but it allowed some time for integration and you know, sort of refining of that question to explore for the next session. So I found that pretty powerful. It's okay if you just do one sitting, but if you do the chance and can do the multi day one, you can have the opportunity to do some really deep work.

And how many times have you done that type of experience?

You know, three, four times I think.

Yeah.

Of multiple, of multiple, you know, sessions. Each time was different. And boy, the lesson I learned, I have to a funny story for you. I went in the first one thinking like I'm an experienced psych or not. This is, I love therapy and self work and, and I'm not afraid of facing my demons and I'm going to ace this. Right. Like many, like many of us always think we're going to do great at things.

I'm an achiever, I'm going to achieve at this.

And you know, grandmother Ayahuasca just worked my ass. It was just so humbling and painful and I, I just came out of it like, okay, okay, don't go in with so many expectations. And the next time I came in just humbly saying, show me what you will. And it turned out to be a beautiful experience. You know, the whole rainbows and unicorns and all that kind of thing. And so I guess the lesson for me was just going curious and without expectation or, you know, agenda. And that's hard because many of us were successful. We always have this kind of like I'm going to crush it type of feeling. And this is not that, you know, and it often will give you what you need, not what you think. Right.

You go in with expectations and then it'll show you. So how would, I mean, given most of these are happening outside the country.

Is that accurate how there are underground ceremonies that happen again, word of mouth in the US it's becoming more and more common now. It is still in the legal gray zone, but we're having more decriminalization of natural plant medicines. So you Know, I wouldn't be surprised if you go to certain cities and states, say Denver and Colorado, or, you know, state of Oregon is decrimed, or come to the Bay Area where Oakland has also had decriminalization. And you can go to some excellent, excellent places like the Sage Institute to look into plant medicine therapy. Outside of the country, there's some wonderful places. There's Blue Spirit in Costa Rica. There's more and more resort and healing centers that do offer plant medicine programs and usually do a good job curating qualified, you know, shamans or providers.

Okay, got it. Yes. Did this originate only from Peru? Do I have that? Is that or just any. Just more broadly South America indigenous from.

Peru, you know, because the relationship with the jungle in that area. And you know, Susan, what's interesting, almost every indigenous culture has had some form of this type of spiritual ritual using their environment. It depends. The Lakota Native Americans, they had the sun, so they used sun dancing as well as sweat lodges. You know, other regions had other types of psychoactive plant medicines around them and would concoct similar preparations. But it's almost like humans, since time immemorial have been looking for ways to reconnect with source or, you know, kind of go deeper with elements from their environment, whatever was around them, whether it was plants or just the sun or other things.

Yeah, absolutely. So long history of this and I understand there's some societies in the US that you could get connected with to learn more. Maybe you could share some information about that for listeners.

For sure. For plant medicine specifically, chakruna.net, that's C H A C R U N A.net is a great place to learn about these sacred plants and psychedelic science and probably is a great place to network, to find, you know, providers and learn about the backdrop of it, including the history. Rich, rich history. As you know, many of these plants have been used indigenously and you know, today it's gotten to the mainstream, so we are kind of appropriating the other culture. So I would say it's really important to learn the context and history of where these come from.

Yeah, fantastic. Well, really appreciate you sharing your journey, your experience. This has been fascinating. And anything you would leave our listeners with who are curious or maybe already done one or contemplating a second. What any advice you would share besides what you've already given?

Yeah. For what it's worth, just to share a bit of my story, this work was important for me to start with myself and just sort of understand my why. And over time, the integration that made my meditation practice much deeper. Before plant medicines I tried meditation honestly. And I would sit there, I'd fall asleep or I'd just be thinking. And this kind of was a movie preview of what's possible to tap into just in meditation. So it's turbocharged meditation practice in many ways. That's been what's really beautiful is then finding ways to tap into that source consciousness state without taking anything. And what's mind blowing is it's always there. It's just sit and pay attention and it's kind of this interesting cosmic joke that that, that depth, that bliss, that joy, that connection. It' always been within you if you just remember to pay attention. And so with that it's really helped kind of that meditation practice and then shifting more towards, you know, healthier eating and healthier lifestyle and more loving relationships and everything else in life that's affected I'd say my quality of my life with from me to we. So the people around me and people I work with, friends, family, etc. And that's really shifted my mission in life on what I want to work on which is you know, healing of the world which really needs it and you know up leveling capitalism and democracy itself and looking at the ways we could create a better, more loving world. And that affects how I do my work and why I do my work now. So that extends to all. So this journey is typically from me within that shapes how you work with others. The weight to the all. And I like to say that you know, as within so expressed without. So this work is your work. If you get right within yourself it will pervade and exude out into everything you do.

Absolutely. And this is the whole reason for this channel you couldn't said it better. The Enlightened executive. That's what we're here. That's what we're here to do and here to help people along the journey of awakening. Thank you for your time and your wisdom. Really appreciate what you had to share today.

Great. Thank you so much. Thanks.

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