How High Achievers Catch Burnout Before It Becomes a Crisis | Iris van Ooyen & Susan Drumm

The most successful people think exhaustion is a time problem or an energy problem, but it's neither. It's what happens when you drift far enough from who you actually are that you stop noticing the distance. By the end of this, you'll know how to spot the drift in yourself or in the people you lead before it costs you your health, your joy, and the relationships that matter most. I'm Susan Drumm, and this is The Enlightened Executive, where your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. Each week we spotlight kind cutting-edge strategies to help executives and entrepreneurs grow in leadership and in life. My guest today is Iris van Ooyen, a Dutch life transformation mentor, keynote speaker, and author of 2 books, including Radiant: How to Have All the Energy You Need to Live a Life You Love. She has an MBA, was building a corporate career when she burnt out at the ripe old age of 24 and decided then to take a radically different path. For 24 years since, she's combined business experience with what her clients call a razor-sharp intuition, Helping executives, entrepreneurs, coaches, and even Olympic athletes find their way back to themselves when cultural conditionings and life demands have pulled them off course. Iris, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Well, tell us a little bit about your work, who it's for, and what is the difference that you're hoping to make in the world?

Ooh, that's a big question, especially that last part. So I, I help people come home to themselves and love their life again. I work with leaders and entrepreneurs who feel that they've like, they made the career, They've done what was expected, but they feel like life should be more than this. And the difference I hope to make in the world— I believe that who you truly are is what the world needs most. And if you're being yourself, there would be so much less to fix in the world.

Yes. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about coming home to yourself. What do you mean when you say that?

So I think that through conditioning and through every— like, all the expectations, all the shoulds, we get away from ourselves little by little. And then We need to come home to ourselves at some point. And it's often something like a wake-up call that forces us to do that. And I'm hoping to help people do that before you need that dreaded wake-up call.

Yeah. Well, tell us, I imagine in your own life you may have had this experience. Let's start with you and then talk about a little bit the types of people that you help and what you've seen.

Yes. So it's definitely my personal journey. I was burned out at the age of 24 working in corporate marketing through to a variety of reasons, but one One of them was like, I was a perfectionist, a high sense of responsibility. I wanted to do well both at work as well as in my personal life, be the perfect girlfriend, like house needs to be in order, like all these shoulds that I was trying to adhere myself to, everything I thought, like all these boxes I thought I had to check. Then the burnout happened. So I fixed things like I started yoga, changed my diet, took more breaks, became more aware of what I needed to do. And I thought like I had fixed it. And then at age 27, I was still exhausted, so I ended up finally at a naturopath because in the hospital they said, oh, there's nothing wrong with you. You're fine. I was like, but I'm still exhausted, so something's off. And I was there and within 30 minutes he said like, okay, so this is what's going on. You have 4 hours of energy per day and you're doing the rest on willpower. And when he said that, I thought, oh, good for me, right? Like I'm pushing through. I'm doing all the rest on willpower. Until he finished his sentence and he said, it's damaging your organs. And at that point, and I still get chills when I say that, I thought, oh shoot, that's not good. And that really was when I thought like, I really need to overhaul things. I left the corporate world. I took time to heal, heal my body, but also to get really clear on like, what do I really want? Because I started to realize that I'd always been the good girl and I never stopped to wonder like, what makes me happy? What do I not just want but need? And what does my body need? So that's like what I did personally that led me to this.

Yeah. And so then what happened from there? Once you discovered this piece, then you decided at that point to make this the work that you were doing in the world?

Not right away. I did start my own business and it, but it kind of evolved over the years. I saw some of the elements that I clearly see now, but I didn't see the whole picture yet, but I had some of the puzzle pieces. I discovered I was highly sensitive and highly intuitive, and I'd never been aware of that. So learning that about myself made me understand more about like how I responded and why I responded or needed certain things. So it really brought me closer to who I was that I never fully understood because there was no one like me around me. Like I was the only highly sensitive person in the family and I never realized how much I was navigating on intuition because I was always in such like corporate, more academic, rational environments. I didn't realize that that was also part of how I was coming to conclusions.

Well, I'm resonating with some of your story too, because I remember my early days in corporate work. I worked at BCG, Boston Consulting Group, and this was, this was right out of grad school and was putting in 90-hour weeks. And I remember this moment where I was looking at a spreadsheet and it started to like wave like this. And it was almost like being in The Matrix. Have you ever seen the movie The Matrix?

Yes, yes.

And it moves like that. And I'm looking at this and I'm going, this is very odd. Like, why is it doing this? And I remember then meeting someone for— in the coffee room, and I mentioned this and they said, you know, you better get that checked out. Like, the eyes are not something you want to mess around with. Well, turns out I go to Mass General Ear and Eye that day, thankfully, and they said, we are doing emergency laser surgery on your eye right now.

You have macular degeneration.

And so it really did hit me doing that, that level. I mean, that's usually something that somebody in their 80s gets, right? Here I am in my early 20s getting this disease. And clearly I had pushed my body beyond the limits that was healthy for me, but yet was expected, right?

Exactly.

You're young, you can handle it. You're gonna put in these hours, right? I think that was a wake-up call. That's one of the reasons why I got out of that consulting, because I started look at, hmm, this isn't the right... And then I also still didn't find the exact groove I was into, but I knew I needed to make a change. And sometimes it, you know, that's the wake-up call we get from our bodies, right?

Yes.

I imagine some of your clients, that's one of the first things that you notice when they come to you.

Absolutely. Usually the body is the first thing to start giving us signals, but we're so used to pushing through and like we try to manage the symptoms rather than listen to what it's trying to tell us. So We feel like it's annoying that we get the headache, so like we take the aspirin or whatnot. Or the cold that doesn't go away. Instead of thinking like, oh, maybe my body needs a little more time for this, we're like, oh, I'm busy. I got another deadline. How can I like get through this without the least delay? So yeah, definitely people come to me not only like when they have a burnout or they feel like, like this isn't good. I have some problems, like some stress symptoms that I'm dealing with, but also sometimes they feel like, like I'm I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing, but I'm not really feeling like this is what life's supposed to be like. Like, am I not supposed to be happier? Or if I'm honest, and then like we, we uncover, they're like, oh yeah, there's actually quite a few things in my life. I'm not miserable. They— I'm— and they often look successful on the outside, but on the inside, they're not all that happy.

Where do you go with them? What are you working on? And what is the shift that— the pattern that gets broken and shifted into a different way of being? Yes.

So usually one of the first things that we cover is energy, because if you don't have energy, it's harder to make a change. So that's often something that we just have to look at. But the pattern that they're required to change is instead of showing up the way they think they're supposed to show up, instead of doing that on automatic pilot, taking the time to connect in and look at what do I want? What do I need? What does my body need? And often that's 2 different things.

Yes. And so when people get those, some of those answers, where do they go with that information?

Well, it means like a big shift, but more often than not, it's showing up differently and making changes, setting boundaries for themselves first and foremost. Like if I start hearing what I call like your signal spot, like the first thing in your body that's off, for some person it's like stiffness in the shoulders or neck, the other one gets a headache or a tummy ache. Like when people take a moment, and I'd recommend they do so right now, like take a moment and think about like, what's the first sign that my body usually gives me that something's off? To start listening to that. Instead of going like, oh, I'll pop a pill and I'll just keep going, think like, okay, so my body is telling me that I need to slow down and I need a bit of a break. And it often sounds counterintuitive to slow down when you have so much to do, but like, there's plenty of research that shows when you take more breaks, obviously when you sleep better, you get more productive, more creative. You literally get more done.

Yes. And it is hard to feel that in the moment with the weight of what's coming. I feel like we can be abusive towards our bodies in that way. It's sort of like we've been taught Like, just push through the pain, right? And so what? But I really like your process of the minute you feel that you're getting a signal about something, what is that something? And figuring it out. And what have people discovered when they've slowed down and listened to that? What do they notice?

Oh, that there's so much more ease and joy when they allow themselves a slowdown. It gives you a sense of perspective too. So often it's much clearer to see where you want to make other changes or where you've been doing things that you weren't really enjoying or where you've kind of automatically been saying yes to things where if you stopped long enough, you would have said no, or maybe not now, or given yourself permission to say no when you feel like saying no. So, so they show up differently. They're usually— people often tell them— what I hear is that people tell them like, oh, you look different, you feel different, you look happier, you look more energized, like, like what's going on?

Yeah. And you mentioned sometimes for people to get to that point of making change, they need to be— well, maybe they're more comfortably miserable is, I think, the phrase. So what are some of the signs when people lose touch with themselves and staying in this sort of comfortable misery that they should pay attention to, that that's a pattern that needs to get interrupted?

Yes. Yes. So a lot of people stay comfortably miserable. And what I mean by that is they're Just not quite miserable enough to make a change, right? So they're unhappy, but not totally miserable yet. So that's when you're headed for the wake-up call, right? So if you've had a wake-up call, I'd say that's a definite sign that you've lost touch with yourself. And then some of the more subtle signs are like saying yes when you feel like saying no, ignoring your intuition, looking successful, but not feeling happy with what you're doing, or pushing through because you think you ought to like check this box or do this thing. And all those little things add up. And the sooner you start paying attention, the less you have to do damage repair.

Right. It's like, do you need to wait till you have, like, heart palpitations to do something about it? Or the pneumonia? I've seen some people get to that point where they couldn't get rid of the pneumonia for a long time. And yet what I know is, I call the phrase sort of something similar, is in order to really make change, people have to have a belly full. And that was always from a roommate of mine who said, well, why won't they make that change? We can see it for them. And they're like, well, she just hasn't had a bellyful yet. You know, like, are you to the point where you've had a bellyful? Because if you can start paying attention to these smaller signs, you won't get hit over the head with a big one.

Yes.

But either way, you're gonna get the wake-up call one way or another. One way or another.

Right. Definitely. Yes. Yeah.

And so tell me a little bit about how this impacts when we talk about leadership, that leaders doing this type of work, how does it impact how they show up as leaders?

So I think when you are not, uh, like when you've lost touch with yourself, you're not being like fully authentic, fully congruent. People can pick up on that. It also costs a lot of energy and you win that back when you, uh, do come home to yourself. When you are being fully who you truly are, everything feels better and smoother. And more in the flow. An example comes to mind of a client. She's this like really high-performing, high-achiever, uh, director of a big department. And she, in session, because she couldn't take a break, right? She was always going and felt like she couldn't afford to slow down and also realized it was something that she needed to work on. So it was session 4 and she said, you won't believe what I've just done. And she, the day prior, she took a day off in the middle of the week, rescheduled meetings. to do that and took her kids to a theme park. And she told her team why she'd done it. And they were inspired by that. And they started making some similar changes. So that was a way that it really rippled through in the rest of her organization because she was showing like, like you can show up in a way that's, yes, we work very hard and it's important to also take some time for other things that are really important as well.

And I bet she showed up when she was back in the office with much more, just being a more inspiring leader, more energy there, more excitement there because she's not going through the hamster wheel of day after day after day, which starts to wear you down and you don't realize like how much that energy is coming— is rubbing off on your team.

Oh, absolutely. Yes. That makes such a difference. Like when you're more present and more energized, that ripples through. Like the energy that you bring to a room makes a huge impact.

Yeah. It is fun when you see high achievers decide they're gonna take a day for themselves in the middle of the week. I know. I had one leader tell He took some time off and they were at a resort for something and actually went and got a massage. And like, this was so out of the norm for him. And he was so proud of himself that he took that time. And, but I said, and how, what was the benefit of that?

Right.

What did you see as a result? And he was like, oh God, I was just so much more present with the rest of the team later that day. And it's just not something I would've done for myself.

Exactly. And it pays back even if it feels counterintuitive. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. And so tell us a little bit about the— how do you get leaders to that point? What is your methodology or process?

So it's different for everyone because everyone's different and everyone has something different that needs to shift. But I'm really intuitive, so I can get straight to the core of like the one thing or two things that are— will make the biggest impact. So we'll get clear on that, and then depending on what that is, we'll take steps for them to show up differently. And as you know, everything starts with awareness. So once you're aware, you can start making those changes and being more conscious of what you do, how you do it, where and why. Yeah, you can ingrain that as a new pattern and a new programming.

So what are some examples of the one or two things that you uncover that you know are going to make the difference? Because actually, that's kind of great to hear because sometimes people think they need to make like all of these changes, but it sounds like there's like one or two really important ones.

Yeah, and they're— and but they're often different for everyone, right? So One that was like really important for myself was like to stop being the good girl. We all want to feel loved, we all want to feel worthy, and I thought the fastest way to get that was being the good girl. So for me to see that and then being able to shift that by setting healthy boundaries, by starting to show up differently, also expecting the pushback, right? I think part of supporting people through these changes is also preparing them for the pushback that you can expect so that you're ready for it when it comes and it won't take you aback. Because when you're Making changes, for example, you're setting new boundaries in the beginning. It can feel scary, and when the boundary isn't fully set yet, I usually see people get a pushback from others, like why or why can't you do this or whatever it is. And once it's really firm and ingrained, no one ever talks about it, even though you set the same boundary, and it's just assumed like okay sure. It's natural because you're so it's like you're so solid in that boundary, no one dares touch it. No one even considers touching it.

Yeah, that is fascinating. Because if you're, oh my God, can I really do this? Unsure about it, that energy comes through and people will poke at it. Are you sure? Why do you have to do this? But if you're really confident and you express that confidence in that piece, and you know that this is non-negotiable, that comes through and you don't get pushback. That's what I'm hearing you say.

Absolutely, yes.

And so for the people that, because you're making change and they may not be as solid in that boundary, and they do get pushback, how do you prepare them for how they face that?

So one of the things I teach all my clients is grounding. And grounding is just really being present, present in the moment. When we do a lot of work with our head, like in meetings, on phones, and computers, we're often in our head. And it's harder to be fully present when you're like running around in your thoughts. So when you take a couple of deep breaths, really like notice your feet, notice how you're sitting or standing here, and then just like bring that energy down a little. When you're more present, it's easier to then feel more convicted to make that shift and to just do it and be it. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes sense from like a somatic perspective, because when you're more present and grounded, you're not as movable.

Exactly right.

Imagine like getting more grounded and rooted like a tree. When you take a stand for something, you're less likely to be pushed aside for So are you suggesting people sort of do this before they go and communicate the boundary?

Yes. If you feel nervous, if your breathing is high in your chest, like, that's not a good sign. Try and lower your breathing, try and feel firm. And if needed, remind yourself why it's important to set this boundary. If that's not enough, remind yourself like what the cost is if you don't set it. I recently told a client like, like, you're paying with your health. every time you work late. Are you willing to do that? And she said, well, not when you put it like that. So I said, well, put that on a sticky note. Remind yourself every time you feel inclined to burn the midnight oil, remind yourself, like, is it worth damaging my body for this? No, it's probably not needed. It's just automatic. You feel like you need to do more and you don't.

Yeah. And going back to your initial story, I'm sort of fascinated by the fact that This doctor told you that you only have 4 hours of energy. Is that true, or is that— was that just for you, or tell me more about that?

Well, that was true for me in that moment because my body just didn't generate enough energy because of a couple things that were off in where you would normally have like energy for a full day. I didn't. I had like normal energy. My body generated energy for 4 hours, and the rest I had to do on willpower. So I had I had to push through and I was damaging my body. It reminds me of a tool that I created. It's called the Daily Energy Inventory, and it's really simple. Like, when you get up in the morning, take a moment and feel like between 0 and 100, like, where is my energy at? And it might be at 50. And then you drive to work. When you arrive at work, is it higher or lower? If you go into a meeting, before and after, did it go up or down? And when you do that for a week or even 2 weeks, It's really easy to start seeing patterns where, where it goes up. That might be surprisingly so because a lot of people think they know. And often I hear like, oh, I found a couple things in there that were draining my energy that I didn't realize, or that were giving me energy or were more neutral than I thought they would be. And when you get that clarity, then you can be more deliberate about scheduling those things that drain you and make sure that it's balanced.

Yeah, it's like a battery, right? We can't— and it sounds like your experiences, you were only topping it up a little bit. So you didn't have enough to get you through a full day, and you kept doing that. And so what are we noticing that is depleting? And also there's depleting emotions, right? And how often are we in depleting emotions such as fear, anxiety, anger? Like, those drain our energy too.

Yeah.

So the emotional piece, I think, is also important to connect to this because that drains your inner battery as well. But then there's renewing emotions, there's renewing activities, How much of your day are you infusing with those to keep the battery, so to speak, topped up?

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I couldn't have said it better.

And so tell me a little bit if there's sort of one practice from your work that somebody could try this week. I mean, doing this energy audit, I think, is one of them. What else could they do? What's something that you'd really encourage leaders to, to focus on?

I'd say pay attention to their signal spots. So taking a pause whenever they— once they've identified like, oh, when I get a headache or a sore throat, I know that like that's my sign that my body is at its limits. If you notice that, take a break. And if you can't take a break right now, make a note and then look at your schedule. Like, where can I give myself a breather? What's a must and what's like something that I can maybe push or hand off? Where can I do something that like gains energy, brings me energy? So that you don't push through because it's all these times that we do push through that ends up finally in that wake-up call situation.

Yeah. And when you take that break, what should they be doing? What does that look like?

So something that energizes you. Like for me, it would be like reading a book outside is something that just, it relaxes me, it recharges me. Some people might go for a walk, you might go for meditation. I think most people know what the things are that recharge We just don't do 'em often enough. Mm-hmm.

And how long should someone do something like that? When you say take a break or go for the walk or whatever, what's really required there?

I'd say until you feel a little better, ideally. Sometimes that's like taking too long, right, with everything that you got. But then noticing that too is also information and it shows you that either you can go on this course and wait for the, like, pneumonia that won't go away or the heart palpitations Or you go like, okay, this is a sign. I'm deciding to take this seriously. What can I do different in the coming 2 weeks to see if I can get more to balance? And whether that's like skipping that dinner or going home early at the party, or maybe doing a Zoom meeting instead of flying off to wherever, prioritizing getting back to balance.

Great. Yeah, I notice for me when it starts, things start to happen in my shoulders, that's sort of kind of a signal. What's your signal? What do you notice that is like, hey, the body's trying to tell you You, you need to take a break and go do something?

It's my sore throat. Ah, it's telling you. Yes.

Yeah. So I would encourage listeners to like identify what is that stress signal in the body that is your beginnings of your wake-up call before it gets grander, right?

Yeah.

What is that? And can you start paying attention, maybe even just noticing, maybe just writing down, hey, I noticed I'm doing this again. And start there and then start to find small little ways to shift it. Even if it's, I'm noticing it and I have to go to a next meeting, what are the 3 biggest deep breaths I could take right now? So it doesn't have to be like, I'm gonna go into the woods for 2 hours. And while that is really beneficial, absolutely, there are small things we can do every day to replenish that inner battery.

Absolutely. And it could just be taking 5 minutes between 2 meetings And maybe just stick your head outside or just do a couple of deep breaths or maybe listen to some music, just relaxing or whatever you need in that moment.

Absolutely. Yes. Shift, use the vibration of that music to shift your energy. I couldn't have said it better. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Where can people find out more about you and your work?

So my website, irisvanorien.com, or they can find me on LinkedIn.

Great. Great. And if you liked this episode, you're not going to want to miss my interview We'll also share an interview with Braxton Kilgo, who describes what began as a simple belief that one small act of kindness can change a life has grown into a powerful movement, a business, and a platform designed to multiply human connection. Let's lead the way. Hope you enjoyed today's episode, and I'd like to point you to the next important step. Hit the subscribe button and the bell to get notified when we release new content. I'll see you on the next episode of The Enlightened Executive.