How to Use the Enneagram in Business (feat. Beatrice Chestnut)

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Hi, I'm Susan Drum. And welcome to the Enlightened Executive where your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. Each episode we feature groundbreaking techniques and strategies to help executives and entrepreneurs get the edge in personal and leadership effectiveness. And feature a different dream office backdrop. Today we are focusing on the Enneagram and its application to business. And with me today, I'm delighted to introduce Beatrice Chestnut. Bea is a licensed psychotherapist, executive coach and business consultant based in San Francisco, California. She has a PhD in communication studies, an MA in clinical psychology, and has been studying the Enneagram. Thank you so much for joining.

Oh, it's a pleasure to be with you, Susan. Thank you for having me.

Well, now you know I love the Enneagram as it's a cornerstone of our leadership development programs. And you and I have co facilitated and developed materials that apply this amazing tool to leadership. But let's. For those who maybe don't know what is the Enneagram, can you share a nice little overview of what, what is this thing that some people have hard time pronouncing?

Sure, sure. The Enneagram is a typology, a personality typology of nine archetypes. And it's a sense making framework. It helps people understand their habitual patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving. And people find it really useful because it's so accurate and thorough in describing these nine personalities and the interconnections between them.

Yeah, it's usually after people have had taken the assessment, they're like, wow, this.

Is almost scary that it nailed me so well.

And so why would this kind of tool be particularly helpful in business? And we're gonna dive more into depth on that. But just kind of like at a high level. Why should an executive or an entrepreneur care about it?

Well, I think there's a lot of evidence out there now that what really sets people apart in business is not necessarily just experience or intelligence or even a good idea, but emotional intelligence. The ability to get along with people, the ability to navigate business relationships, to collaborate with people. I mean, more and more you really need to collaborate and work with others in order to get important things done. The Enneagram really helps you know yourself better first and foremost. It helps you be more self aware so you can understand yourself and manage your own reactions and interactions. But it also helps you have a lot more empathy for other people. Once you learn your own type, that gives you a lot of information about you. But then if you learn about the other types, you realize that different people have these completely different perspectives than you do. And if you can take that into account, you can really understand other people. And especially if you have a disagreement or conflicting perspectives, it helps you make sense of why that is so that you don't get into trouble with people as easily. Because it's not that anybody's right or wrong or that there's necessarily even a problem sometimes. It's just we're looking at things from completely different angles. So the emotional intelligence, as we know is a combination of self awareness and social awareness or social skill. And it really helps people be easier to work with because they understand themselves and what they bring to the table in interactions. They understand and have empathy for others and it gives them a neutral language for understanding points of difference and ways they may run into trouble with other people that they can actually smooth out quite easily if they have all this rich information about why they may have a different worldview or angle on a specific issue than someone else.

Yeah, absolutely. Great, great description of that. The power of this tool, I know for what I've noticed with executives is they've felt like, wow, I thought everyone thought this way, or I thought everyone.

Was motivated by this.

And now I'm realizing actually they're not. And therefore I need to relate to them in a different way. And I think it opens up the thought that, oh, so people do think differently and I could harness that in a good way versus maybe getting triggered by something that someone did because they don't have the same values or motivation and a result of that. So yeah, the Enneagram can do all these things. Now how is it different than, let's say, some other tools that sometimes it gets compared to, like Myers, Briggs or Disc or some of the other ones out there? What makes it different?

Well, a few things. One thing is, I think more than anything else, it's a growth model. In other words, it has baked in the idea that as you learn about yourself and learn about others, you can grow and develop and become more effective, more successful, get more satisfaction out of your job or your career, and you can really develop more of your potential through knowing your personality. Because part of the idea is, is that while your personality is helpful and functional, it can also hold you back. It can be self limiting in ways that you don't see. So that's one thing I would say. So it's a growth model. It's very much oriented not on just highlighting differences, but helping you go beyond where you are now in terms of what you're able to do now. Another thing is that it operates not just at the mental level in terms of how you think differently than others, but also at the level of emotional intelligence and, and even instinctual intelligence or body intelligence. And it incorporates all three and so gives a very full picture of human functioning, not just one that's. That's mainly oriented in cognitive function, say, the way the Myers Briggs is. And one more thing I'll say is because the Enneagram types provide so much information, it's almost like the more time you give it, the more you learn. There's just a lot, a lot of insight and a lot of information there about your own type and that of others, that it really allows you to share more with others. It's funny because when I bring the Enneagram into working with teams in the past, there was a little bit of a feeling of like, ooh, this is a little bit vulnerable. And one of the things I love that I'm seeing more and more now is that teams really appreciate that about the Enneagram. It's almost as if they're recognizing that by sharing a little bit more with the people I work with, sharing more about who I am as a person, it actually makes the work experience richer. It actually makes it easier to work with people. And people are more willing to be flexible and understanding if they know a little bit more about you. And I've really been recognizing that people are actually enjoying the experience of allowing for more vulnerability or more sharing of emotions in the workplace. Whereas I think in the past, people almost liked models that were a little bit more simplistic or one dimensional because they didn't really want to get that vulnerable with each other. And that was something that wasn't really good. But I think that's really changed. And I think the Enneagram is the perfect tool for the moment because it allows avenues for sharing more and sharing at a deeper level that I think people are finding really gratifying because they learn. I mean, I've been watching it happen with teams. It's like you see lights go on and you see the interest people have in understanding each other, but it provides the increased sharing in a kind of a safe way because there is a structure. You can go as far as you feel comfortable. You don't have to share everything, but you can share more about yourself. And certainly when people learn the different types, they know a lot more quickly. And so I think getting to know each other better and faster and in ways that actually feel supportive of doing work together and even having a good experience on the job are all things that make the Enneagram really special.

Yes, yes. You know, I also find what's great about it is they become in one way, it's easy to learn the system and yet it's so deep at the same time. So, I mean, you've been studying it since 1990, so you've got, I mean, that must have captivated and held your interest to go that depth. And I continue, I've been working with it for eight years now. I continue to learn more and more about it. But at the same time I find the archetypes are easily memorable because, you know, I remember, you know, Myers Briggs, you're an intp, and how do I relate to you and. Oh, you're an entj. And so therefore, what do I do? I feel like in a team setting in particular, it's really powerful because there are nine types. And when you understand the nine types, you already have a little bit of a language to be able to understand what motivates that person, how that person should get feedback, what you need to pay attention when you delegate to that person if they're on your team. So using it in a team setting, I found it to be really one of the most powerful tools.

Yeah. Sounds like you agree as well. Yes, I agree completely.

Yeah. So could you maybe share an example? Because I think listeners love to hear about. Well, let's see. What did it do for someone? Either if it's an individual or team, or even if you have example of.

Both of those, that would be great. Sure. One example that's coming to mind, that from a team that I worked with once, this was at a financial firm. I was working with a small team of leaders, really high level leaders, and the head of the team was not getting along with another member of the team. And they were having kind of ongoing friction and kind of conflict. And they brought me in to teach them the Enneagram. And one of the guys was pretty skeptical. The leader of the team already knew the Enneagram, so he was bringing it in as a way to help. And the guy that he was having a problem with was skeptical, but through the course of the session, learned his type. And his type was not what the other guy thought it was. In other words, there had been a real misunderstanding of what this guy's motive was. But when, you know, he thought he was a 6, but it turns out he was a 1. And so when they found out what types they both were, and they were more able to talk about kind of what they tended to pay attention to the most and what their main issue was and the conflict they were having. They were able to completely shift the dynamic that they were having within the team. And all of a sudden, they went from having a problem with each other to appreciating each other because they realized, oh, the conflict we're having over, you know, this business disagreement is really about this. And that makes so much sense. And. And they were able to kind of come together around it as opposed to be against each other. And I worked with that same team a year and a half later, and they were doing really, really well. And the leader told me they were so thankful they did the enneagram session, because now that guy was a really highly valued member of the team, and he was doubting whether he could work with him anymore. So he went from almost letting him go to having an experience with him where he was a really needed valued member of the team playing a really important role that now he was able to understand because he understood, you know, exactly where he was coming from, as opposed to kind of misperceiving him or guessing what his motive was and being wrong about it. Yeah, yeah.

Can you give an example of, like, what was his motive versus the other person's motive?

Sure. When they were selling new work to clients, this guy, who was a one, was worried about at times, Are we representing ourselves honestly enough? Like, in any sales effort, Right. You got to put your best foot forward. And the other guy was a three. Right. And so threes are good at selling, and they're good at kind of painting a really positive image or picture. And the one worried about integrity and honesty and ethics was sometimes doubting, like, are we really being honest about what we're offering while we're giving the good sales pitch? And the three wondered if he was a six. Like, just sort of felt him as being rebellious or oppositional or finding problems and everything. But once he realized, oh, what you're really worried about is you want to make sure we're not being fraudulent in any way. You want to make sure that we're being really honest and not misrepresenting the truth in any way. And he said, oh, well, that's. I'm glad that you're bringing that concern, because I'm a three, and that's not my main concern, but it should be a concern. And you bringing that. That forward makes our sales effort actually better. And so it was. It went from like, why are you always questioning me? To, oh, now I understand what your concern is as a one. Because he had no idea this guy was A one. And now it made a lot of sense. And he could even value that as opposed to just feeling like you're someone who's always kind of going against my plan. And so like I said, a year and a half later I came back and it was interesting because there was some new people on the team and this new guy said, is there any like, scientifically valid data about this? And the guy who had been a skeptic who turned out to be a one and said, you know what, we don't need scientific data. This is by far the best thing we ever did. And it's self verifying. He goes, when you, when you read about these types, you can just see it in yourself and it helps you make sense of what's happening. And so I was, I was so glad to see that this team was still together and doing better than ever and really again, valuing what each of them brought in a new way than they were able to do before they understood the clarity of their personalities that the Enneagram brought.

Such a good example of the power of this tool. You know, I think what you're also highlighting is the fact that the empathy that gets created and empathy has really become quite a hot topic, I think, in leadership development circles. And this tool helps you create that because when you can understand what really matters to people and then as opposed to dismissing what they're trying to do, then you're honoring their perspective. And in fact, I like to describe it as cognitive diversity, that you have a diverse way of thinking and the best teams are the most cognitively diverse teams. They harness the best thinking. However, the more diversity you have, the more likely you might have some conflict. So how do you get the best of the diversity while still managing the conflict? And I think that's what the Enneagram brings to the table in a way that I've never seen any other tool do.

Really good point. Really good point. Because when people can see the value in the other viewpoints and there's no sense that one's better or worse or right or wrong, they're all valuable. And when you can understand what they are, you can almost understand how to put the pieces together.

Yeah. Now, what would you, what might you say to the skeptics? Because I know you and I have definitely come across some skeptics, you know, or. And you even talked about the one, the one you worked with, being a little skeptical. How do you handle that and what do you say about it?

Well, I invite skepticism. You know, I think I have so much confidence in this system that I don't get thrown off if someone has questions. Now, it's not for everyone, you know, for instance, I mainly work with leaders who seek me out to use the Enneagram. I wouldn't want to try to sell it on someone who maybe isn't open minded enough to use something like this or, you know, for one reason or another, it's not for them. But for the skeptics, I would say, you know, really take a look at, you know, your personality description, really be honest with yourself and see if it's a value, if it shines a light on things that can be important to know about yourself that you didn't know before. Because the Enneagram really highlights blind spots as well as conscious habits and tendencies. And that can be enormously helpful because when we're not aware of certain things we do, they still impact our interactions with people and the work we do. And so it can be very important to know what you don't know. And so I, you know, I invite skepticism. I usually find that if you answer people, the skeptics, questions honestly and say if you don't know someone something you don't know. But usually I find the skepticism goes away when people can really have their questions answered and feel like it's okay to be skeptical, but also they open up space inside themselves to really give it a good look.

Yeah, yeah. What might be the biggest concerns that you've heard people might have about using this tool and using it for leadership?

I think the concerns are on the one hand that it may be a little bit vulnerable and revealing. You know, sometimes there that feels a little threatening to people. I find less and less. Honestly, I find when I work with teams of younger people that there's no barrier, there's really no questioning. But I would say sometimes there is a concern about like scientific valid validity. But I think it's more of a just. It almost feels like a little bit of a mental resistance to me. Like is this safe? I think is the question they're asking, you know, will it be okay if we open the door to sharing more about ourselves? So I usually find that questions are matters of safety and so I try to speak to that. So for instance, when I work with teams, you know, I encourage leaders not to make it mandatory to make it voluntary, but I encourage them to also say very clearly why they think it's a value. I think leaders that are modeling self awareness and openness to things like the Enneagram are very powerful because when other people see the Leader talking about what it's done for them and telling a personal story about how they learned something about themselves and the good things or the rewards that that brought. Often that's very important. So I think maybe it's the fact that, you know, I'm in a position now where a lot of people come to me because I use the Enneagrams. They're already sold on it. When they come to me, I don't really spend too much energy on pushing back on people who aren't open to it because I kind of let them go their way. Because there are plenty of people who, I think who really get it, you know, or after one experience. So, for instance, I'm working in one company now and I've been working with a couple teams and they'll share it with somebody else. And now they want to use it with their team. And they may have a little bit of skepticism. But as we start, as I start, I do individual sessions with the people before the team session. In those individual sessions, I start answering questions and the skepticism goes way down. And then once we do the first team session, all of a sudden people are just having a felt experience of the value of it, of being able to understand the people in the team and just having all these kind of insights and AHAs and new understandings. I think very quickly that skepticism kind of fades away. And I think in the initial thing, it's about creating a safe environment so people can feel like they can share a little bit more and that it's going to be okay, as opposed to going against the idea of like, well, this is work and maybe I'm not supposed to share my emotions or talk too much about myself. And when they realize a, they're not forced to, they're not pushed to, they're invited to. And when they take that invitation, it leads to a greater feeling of connectedness within the team and people get really interested. Like, I often find that people, if we do like say a four hour session, at first they're like four hours, that's kind of long. But then we do it and they say, wow, that went by really fast and let's do another one. So when they really step into it, they have a felt experience of how valuable it is. Yes, yes.

Now I know one of the things I love also in our partnership is.

We'Re both committed to, you know, walking the talk and using.

Using the tool ourselves. Maybe you could share a little bit about what you've learned by applying this tool to yourself.

Sure. Oh, I've Learned so much. I mean, in. In the early days, I learned a lot just of the basics of my personality. I'm a two, and as a two, you know, I want everyone to like me. You know, I want to be well thought of. I have this idea that I can forge a positive relationship with anyone I might choose to. But I think that comes a little. That that's a little bit unrealistic. So I've had to kind of learn, like, well, not everyone has to like me, and that's okay. I've also been conflict avoidant in the past, and I've learned to have conflict. And I've learned to be more open and assertive in ways that might lead to conflict, knowing that that's okay if it comes up that conflict can be strengthening. It can strengthen relationships and connections that sometimes you need to have the uncomfortable conversation in order to get to a better place with people. I think it's interesting. I'm thinking of one insight I had as a group facilitator. I got the feedback at one point. That person saw me giving a lot of positive feedback, but not saying a lot of what I thought that was more in the constructive, critical vein. And I realized that person was right. And what that person said is it was making him not trust me. And I was like, wow. Like here I thought like, oh, if you're always nice to everyone like us twos, try to be that everyone will like you and everything will be fine. Well, actually, if you only share your positive feelings because you want people to like you and you're not sharing honest, direct feedback, which of course we need to do when we work with people, that leads to a lack of trust for some people. And that was completely new idea to me because I always thought, well, you've always just got to be being nice and leading with friendliness and supportiveness and everything will go well. And actually, that was exposing a blind spot to me where I wasn't being fully authentic. And in order to be more effective in my relationships and have deeper relationships, I needed to be more authentic rather than just pleasing. And so that's been a huge thing for me to always be working on being more honest and being more direct and sharing my real opinion, even if it differs from other people. Whereas in the past I would sugarcoat things or I would just say whatever I needed to say to kind of stay in a good place with people. But really that leads to superficial relationships or it leads to just sort of moving away from some people that you could have good relationships with if you were willing to explore more what doesn't always go well between you. And at first I was very afraid to do that. But I've developed a lot more resilience and a lot more willingness to really lean into just being honest and dealing with what's happening, no matter what that is. Yeah, yeah.

And how you do that is what's so fascinating about the Enneagram because it just doesn't tell you what you are. It tells you how you can grow.

Within your type of.

And how you grow within your type are the model itself. Right. It's a diagram and it has. There are certain things you can learn from people that are on either side of you. The numbers on either side of you. Like, so in your instance, the 1 and the 3. Right. Growth path there and what we call wing style. And then there's growth on these, the arrow lines. So the diagram actually has arrows and they point to other styles that you can learn from. So I think it makes it actionable for people as you just described, you know, as opposed to maybe some of the other tools. It's like, okay, I'm this type, and now what do you do about that? Right. Not that there's anything you have to do, but it's. If you're interested in growth and if you're watching this channel, you're interested in growth. It's a tool for making that happen and making it very clear.

And also who can support you in that?

Right?

Yes.

What types could you learn the most from as a result of that? So I think that's. That's what. Now, what would you say to. And I know, I realize you don't. You're not dealing with a ton of skeptics because people are coming to you because you already know. But it's more of a question that I. That some may have. It's like, well, how does you boil down. People are so unique. How do you boil it down to nine types? Like, how does that. Is that being too simplistic?

Well, I always like to start by saying that the Enneagram comes in. There are three groups of three types each. And to me, that's part of what you said earlier about the types are memorable. Like, I think the Myers Briggs example is kind of good. I have a really hard time remembering what those 16 types are really all about. But because there's this diagram and the types are interconnected and it comes in the. You know, it's a circle with a nine pointed star inscribed in a circle. And that circle is kind of a model of Wholeness. And when we identify with one type, it's almost like we see 360 degrees of reality through a narrow slice. So I think it's really about understanding that, yes, I am seeing through this lens, and this lens is. Is what it is. In some ways, it helps me see certain things really clearly, and it's the basis of some of my strengths. But it's a limitation at the same time. And I think the fact that there's nine, it's kind of a good number because there is a systematic nature to it. These three groups of three types, the way they're related to the three centers of intelligence, I think there's, you know, and of course, there's a. There's a very deep, rich background meaning to the symbol and the teaching. It's rooted in history. I usually don't bring that in when I work in business because I don't think people really need to know or want to know too much about history. For me, it just shows that this is deeply grounded in mathematics, in ancient wisdom and philosophy. So that there is kind of a rhyme and a reason to the nine. And I think in a way, it's a good number because not too many, but it's not too few. And again, the whole. Once you understand the system and the three groups of three types and the way they relate to the centers of intelligence, which are ways of processing information in the world, I think you start to get a sense of the way the whole thing holds together. And the fact that there are these nine distinct types that can be described so accurately, it just starts to makes sense intuitively and also experientially.

And there's even some additional variation with the concept of subtypes. So there's nine main types, but each type has three different subtypes in it. So there's actually sort of 27 flavors. But you don't have to. It doesn't have to be overwhelming in that way, because they're all related to the nine types, you know.

Exactly. And I start with three, and then I go to nine. And then when people are ready, I go to 27. And you don't even have to go to 27 right away. If you're just working with one person and you focus on their type, you can just teach them the three versions of that type. And, you know, it is another level of complexity, but I think it adds so much nuance and specificity. So I take the approach of bringing people in kind of step by step. And I think when you. When you use that approach and they get each step. When they get to that level of understanding it more, it all kind of makes sense and holds together.

Yeah. Great. Great. Well, this has been so helpful to hear about how you work with teams, how it benefits leaders, how the Enneagram works in business essentially for personal growth and leadership effectiveness. Where could people learn more? If they're curious to learn more about the Enneagram, what should they do?

I have an online content platform and online workshops you can go to cp enneagram.com it stands for chestnut Pious Enneagram Academy. I run that with a business partner and we have professional workshops for people, leaders, HR professionals, coaches, therapists who are wanting to learn the Enneagram at a deeper level to apply it in their professional practice and apply it and just know it better. So CP enneagram.com and also my personal website, Beatrice chestnut.com that has a little bit of information about the types and an introductory video and those are the two places I would start.

Fantastic. Awesome. Thank you for joining us today. Really appreciate all the wisdom you shared. And until next time, thank you.

Susan.

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