How Trauma Can Become Your Triumph [The Leader’s Playlist]

Foreign.

Hi, I'm Susan Drum and welcome to this special edition of the Enlightened Executive a seven episode podcast series on the Leaders Playlist where we'll be discussing how to use the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership and your Life. Go to susandrum.com to learn more about these concepts and the book. And, and I'm so excited to have Jason Jaggerd with me today to talk about the book. He's a top tier executive coach and founder of Novus Global, a tribe of elite executive coaches who work with Fortune 500 companies, elected officials, professional athletes, artists, just rock star people. So we are kindred spirits, honestly, and it's a delight to have you on the show. Thank you.

Oh, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to learn more about the book and to, I mean, I read the book but like the process and kind of hear behind the scenes and to even ask some questions that can help your listeners appreciate it as much as I did.

Awesome. I'm excited that you read the book because some are just getting into it and asking questions and you've, you've done the whole thing. So thank you for that.

Yeah, it's my pleasure. So can we, can we jump in? Can I just start?

Rapid fire. Let's do it.

Okay. So maybe this might be a little too rudimentary as we dive into this, but I am, I love music. As soon as you told me the premise of the book, I was so excited, maybe even a little jealous that I didn't think of that idea first. And then I started reading the book and it was so much better than what I would have thought for myself if I was going to write something because it's so tactical. And so here's what I love to do first is can you tell us a little bit about the, the theory behind it and the gist of it and why this matters so much to you, why you want to write a book about it?

Yes, yes. Well, why I did this, I mean, ultimately, I think we're both mission minded people and what I hope to catalyze is real and lasting change. Because what I see out there, people are so divided. Political leaders continue to attack each other from a very wounded perspective of power and control. And I really believe the impact of poor leadership on our planet is really evident. Right. It's literally creating a meltdown of our environment and destruction of people and wildlife. And I just believe that the answer doesn't lie in trying to control or fix others as much as we would like. We need them to Change. We only have power of ourselves. Right. So the answer really lies in. In healing ourselves. And I wanted a way to get to something that a lot of people don't want to talk about, which is how our early childhood experiences show up in your leadership. But the evidence was, for me, having done this work for a couple decades now in leadership development is every time I would be coaching with a leader, it was really based on some of those early formative years. And they became survival techniques that were kind of being used in this. In a certain circumstance that didn't require or warrant that. Yet the psyche was highly aware for any kind of potential threat to survival. Right. And it's born in the amygdala to do that. But it doesn't help when we're trying to be more enlightened executives. So I wanted to find a way to talk about that, but I knew I couldn't go right at that with the book. It's not like, oh, this book's about childhood wounds and how they impact your leadership. It is about that. That.

Yeah.

But also I wanted a way that could shift and help people create. I call it a brain hack. To be able to shift some of these very deep seated patterns. And you. And I love music. I. I have a master's from the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art.

Yeah.

And. And what one person said to me, like, only you could write this book, like, based on that background.

Yeah.

And music healed me. So ultimately, at the end of the day, it was really how I broke out of some bad patterns I was in. And I thought, there's something here with music. And got me interested to do all the research I did on the impact of music on the brain.

Yeah. Well, and speaking of that, do you mind giving us a little bit of a tease of how music does impact the brain? Because I was. And you put that right up front in the book. And I just, I loved. I was hooked immediately. And I just love for you to share with the audience a little bit of how that works.

Yeah. So. Well, you think about sad songs can remind you of heartbreak. And listening to your favorite song releases oxytocin, which is the same experience you would be getting from eating chocolate or having great sex or whatever. Oxytocin producing things, and it increases empathy, understanding, compassion, but it's really helping you get in touch with your deeper emotions. And music directly connects your brain and your memories, and it helps you recall particular emotions you were feeling. So if you think about, you know, why is it that music can take us back to Our childhood or, you know, in high school, we had that certain anthem or, you know, you hear a song on the radio and you can think of an exact time and place of where you heard that song. In fact, there was a song written about that. Right. I think it was. It was the remake of Sweet Home Alabama. And talking about hearing that song and how it took him back to that time. Well, music has that such incredible power then, to access parts of our brain that we can't normally get to.

Yeah.

So I want to say, how about we actually use that for good.

Yeah.

And get into the emotional pattern that we need to be in to be great leader.

Yeah, I love that. And you even mentioned a little bit about, like, it's almost miraculous, like, with all Alzheimer's patients and how they use music. Can you share us a little bit about how what they discovered in using music with Alzheimer's.

Yes. So Alzheimer's patients who are unresponsive, you know, not talkative, kind of sort of slumped over, they put on their favorite song or songs from their era, and all of a sudden. And I've seen videos of this, and in my master class, I actually, I. I bring in some of these videos so you can see it. They. They come alive. They literally start talking, engaging, talking about what it was like back then. And all of those synapses start refiring again that were dormant. So if it has the power to do that, I feel like it has the power to shift us as well.

Yeah, well, and your book is proof of that because, I mean, so you have. You set up in the beginning and you describe the philosophy and the psychology and the neurophysiology of that. And then the bulk of the book are these amazing case studies of real time people, real leaders, people with impressive jobs, doing incredible things in the world. And then you really show it's. You know, I love the show in treatment. When it was on, I think I can't remember if it's HBO or whatever. And it was just like this, you know, a manuscript of a therapy session. And you really go and, you know, you change names and things, I think.

But yes. And even it's composite stories. So it's not like only one story, because I couldn't do that. Right. I call them composite characters.

Yeah, I like that. Yes. But we get to go behind the scenes of these really incredible composites and then how you've leveraged music or would leverage music in order to serve them. And then, of course, as I was reading this, I was thinking, how can I use this in my own life, and not only with my clients and with our firm and those types of things, but even just in my own self leadership. So you developed this really cool paradigm of two soundtracks or two songs for kind of pre and post. Can you unpack that a little bit for us?

We first look at what's the old playlist running you? What is that background music that maybe you're aware of and it's just an annoying song like it became for me, or maybe you're not aware of it at all and it's faded in the background so much, but yet it's really steering what you pay attention to. So we're using music figuratively there and identifying what is the old playlist or statement. And I boil it down to nine most common childhood wounds. So each one of those nine stories are the nine most common that I've seen. And in that we anchor that with a song so that you can catch yourself when you're going down that neural pathway that is not serving you. And it's the reminder of oh, there's freebird again, or oh, there's you say again. And it allows you to connect back to. I know where that leads and it doesn't serve me.

Yeah.

And then the new playlist is deciding what is the shift? What's the emotional resonance shift that needs to happen and how do you want to be? What do you want to be feeling, Experiencing more in your day and getting clear. What are those emotions? What is the new statement that you want it to be? Mine was I'm fully supported or everything is working out for me. And with that, then we build music around that. What is the music that best has? You feel that that has this. You know, if it's, I want to feel more supported, what music is about that or makes me feel energetically in that state. And then you listen to that and you practice that and that starts to groove in the new emotional resonance.

See, and I think there's an elegance to that. There's a simplicity to that. I know with some of our coaches in our firm, we were toying with like drawings where you had like a drawing of the old state and drawing of the new state. But that's really sophisticated. And you have to like find an artist and you kind of like, you know, not to be cheap. You got to pay the artist and it's got to work out and you got to have them work with all these people. And it takes forever. Finding a song can be fast, it can be free, it can be. And to your point, Music is much more emotionally resonant than images are, and so it immediately hacks the amygdala so much faster than a lousy picture that I might pay an artist to draw for somebody. I love that you found that. What was your new song?

Oh, my new song was 24 Karat by Bruno Mars. That was my anchor song. So my old playlist that I talk about was I'm treated unfairly, which you would not know that. Believe that that was going on in the background. And I didn't either. Again, I didn't see it until I wrote about my life and I thought about these patterns that I saw and what was I feeling? Left out, mistreated, when these low points happened and there were common threads in the low points.

Yeah.

So the new song of 24 carat is like, the party has started. Here I am, like, there's. There's. You know, and it brings a smile on my face every time I hear it, you know, and it's. It's become a bit of an anthem of. Of how I want to show up in the world.

And this is a little tactical, but then how often. I'm asking because I'm selfish and I want to use this for myself, but, like, how often do you listen to the song? Is it. Is it ritualized for you? Is there a rhythm to this, or is it just kind of whenever?

It's. It's both initially a pattern, and I work in the process. It's like, let's figure out what that's going to be for you. Like, how do we best implement this? What's. What's it going to work? So for me, it was really important to listen to it. Hiking when I was out in nature, something about being there, that. That sort of created again, the blank slate to begin to build. So I would go hiking with it. That was my primary use. I would usually start the day with one of the songs as well that were on the playlist, and then I would also use it when I would. Again, in a bad situation, let's say something happened that triggered me or whatever. I want to acknowledge what the emotion is that I'm feeling. Right. And because I need to acknowledge that I need to feel that and I need to take action if the action is warranted. But if I'm continuing, like, throughout the day to keep going at it and going at it and going at it, I'm like, okay, let's. Let's get off this. Let's get off this train.

Yeah, yeah, you can use it to disrupt. Yes, and, you know, I love that the book's called the Leader's Playlist. And I know that, like, one song is in the playlist. Do you. Either for yourself or with the, the clients you composite in the book, and I think even have a QR code.

Yes.

That you can take and it'll take you to different playlists. Is that right?

That's right. That's right. It'll take you to the list of the nine leaders and their individual playlists.

That's great.

So that you can see the music. If you say, hey, that one sounds like me.

Yeah.

Then here's some music that might resonate with you, it may not. Because music, you know, our taste in music from the research is developed also in childhood, really, which was fascinating to me. And it may not just be, okay, I didn't listen to country music, and now I can listen to. I do like some country music. But there's maybe there's something about the, the tone, the pitch, the story, whatever it may be. But you can use that for inspiration.

That's cool. Yeah. And that's. By the way, that's super helpful. I was reading it on my phone, and so I don't know how to, like, I don't, I don't know how to access QR codes when I'm reading on my phone. But is there a website that people can check out, too if they don't click on the QR code? How do they get to those playlists?

Go to the leaders playlist, book.com.

Perfect.

And you'll see everything there for purchasing and, and how there's bonus downloads and that. Those are the places where you can get it.

Leaders playlist, book.com.

Yeah, the leaders playlist, book.com.

Perfect. And then of the composites, do you have one? And as you, I know. You know, you, you pass it around and you pass the book around you getting feedback and everything. Do you have a favorite chapter? Do you have a composite that you think is most resonant with a lot of the leaders that you work with in your own practice as you're working with them? You know, you talked about the people we work with, but you work with some pretty incredible people.

You know, it's, it's, it does vary. I'm just looking at them now. Some of the, Some of the ones I've heard a lot, particularly maybe in some younger, the young leader, which is I'm not enough or I am an imposter. And it's really about, well, what is it? What's that core belief and how do we shift that? I think for a lot of entrepreneurs, it's I'm all alone or it's about being trapped, which is sort of why they became entrepreneurs in the. In the first place. It drove those choices.

Yeah.

Or people that prefer to work alone. So I, I see some, some themes sometimes of where people end up and what they're doing in their profession. All the stories are. Are really powerful, particularly in acknowledging that what happened to you as a child also made. Gave you your own superpower. And we do want to celebrate that. Yeah, I think it's. It did it for me. Right. What I experienced helped develop that skill. But now we want to look at. Well, but where is that limiting? Right. How can you expand even greater, take the best of that superpower, but also kind of drop the fear response piece?

Well, actually, if you don't mind, I'd love to hear that story because, you know, you. Because I know you talk about again in the book. You talk about the wound from you and then. And you mentioned the. Was it the. I'm not a. Nah. No. What was it?

I'm treated unfairly.

That's true. Unfairly. Yeah, that's right. And then. And tell. Because I think, I do think people forget and I appreciate that you mentioned this in the book, that, that your trauma can oftentimes become your triumph. And can you talk a little bit about your journey with that in terms of the belief and then what it got you and then how you hit a wall and then how music has helped you move past that.

The old wound came from, you know, experiences and relationship with my dad in particular. And I. And I'm pretty open about that story and how his tendency to flat with. To go into anger or rage in some cases really scared me as a little girl and scared me throughout my life, honestly. He was quite an imposing figure and could make grown men cry. I mean, that's how intense that that anger would be. And it all stems from his own childhood wounds. Right.

Yeah.

But it allowed me to read that my superpower got developed. Whereas I used to call it sort of Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde behavior. You never know when it was coming. And. And so it allowed me to read him very closely. Look, when I kind of saw maybe it was escalating de. Escalate that. But it almost gave me a little bit of this hyper vigilance to read the signals. And I think in coaching now that's so important. I'm gathering so many other inputs. I'm really using a lot of intuition and Hearing beneath what someone is saying. And that all got developed as my survival technique.

So then how could that ever be a bad thing? You know? So, like, why doesn't the story stop there and say, yay? Susan, you know, had this thing with her dad and. Yeah, yeah.

And I thought it did. Right. But. But what I started to notice and it was after. In step one. So there's the seven step process. Step one is you got to have a belly full. Meaning you've reached your limit.

Yeah.

And I reached my limit after the end of a really significant relationship for me that had some betrayal, it had shock and just deep wounding. And I felt really resentful about it. And I couldn't get off the resentment. It was like every time I thought about it, you know, we had a word that I'm not going to say here that we used to call, you know, and it was like. It was a lot of victim. Victim talk for me. And I knew it. Being a coach, I knew that, but I couldn't. It was like, just take me over and take me over and. And finally I gotta do something to ship this. So that's when I started using music. Right. As I said. But as I was writing about my life for this book, I started, I identified. What was I feeling? You know, again, frustrated, treated unfairly.

Yeah.

And I looked at different low points in my life, and they were all that same resonant emotion. And I'm like, oh, my God, I got this, like, program running me.

Yeah.

Or I'm running. And if I'm running it, it's having these experiences continue to show up in my life, and I'm done with this experience. Like, I think I got it. Like, I've had enough of this flavor. This last flavor was a doozy. Enough of this flavor. I need to shift that. And that's why I say you got to get a belly full to understand if you actually look deeper, some of these will show up in patterns in your life.

Yeah. And I really appreciate you mentioned the seven steps. I appreciate in the kind of the end of the book, the last third of the book, you just dive into the nuts and bolts. And I was so excited to see that, by the way, so many coaches kind of hide their secrets. And I appreciated you in this one regard, kind of opening up and showing how things work. And even for those who are listening, it's worth buying the book just to have the list of emotions that you talk about in terms of how to identify the belly full. Because a lot of people don't know how to identify what they're thinking or feeling. And so you give it all there. This is going to shift without the clutch a little bit. But for you, with this book, as you get out into the world and, and as people are buying and reading it, what's your hope? Like, what's the best case scenario when someone reads this? And what kind of, like, what kind of emails do you want people who are listening to this right now, after they read your book to send you.

Oh, my gosh, what a. What a great visualization statement. You know, I would, I would just love people to. To get. Understand that they don't have to be taken over by the old demon. You know, we call it. You could call it a demon. You could call it, you know, a bad pathway. It's just a pattern that you develop, you adopted to survive. And the brain is moldable. It can change. So I'd love to hear how people applied and found music actually helped them create the shifts that they've been wanting to make for years. That would be extraordinary. And that's what I hope to hear.

Yeah, I love that. And you know, I'm gonna. If you don't mind, I say, and if you listen to this and you buy the book, send Susan your playlist.

Yes, that's right. I want to create a community, honestly.

Yeah.

These offshoots that haven't even been formed yet. I'm just trying to get the community where people could share their playlists and talk about and just be more open of what the old one was and what they found and what their trigger song is and what some of the new. The new ones could be and give others inspiration.

Yeah. Well, I tell you what, reading it really invited me to reflect on my own story and my, my own playlists. I'm excited about the book. I love that someone is fusing. I think, I think there's probably several more books in you around this topic in terms of just the intersection of leadership and coaching and music. And Susan, I'm grateful that you took the time to write it. Writing is a sacrifice. It's a lot of work and I can't wait to see more people get a hold of it.

Well, I'm so thrilled you came to talk about the book, to read the book. Thank you for that. Thank you for being such a wonderful supporter. And you've got a book coming out this year as well, so I can't wait to return the favor.

Oh, man, it's coming. It's coming up. It's at the copy editors right now. So we'll. We'll. We'll see, but. Yeah, we'll. We'll see. I love. I can't wait to get. Get you a copy.

Yes. Do you have a title yet?

Yeah, it's called. Well, okay, so we can cut this out of the interview, but it's. It's called Beyond High Performance, and the subtitle is what Great Coaches Know about How the Best get Better. And so it's. It's a similar thing.

We don't need to cut this out.

All right.

I want people to know.

I appreciate you asking. I'm excited about it. I'm sure you feel similarly because your book is so well written. It's my favorite thing I've ever done, so I'm really excited to get out there.

Same for me. It was incredible experience, so I'm glad I wrote it and I didn't assign some ghostwriter to create it.

I'm glad you wrote it too.

Yeah. Well, thank you. Thanks so much. And, hey, let's all lead the way.

Let's do it. Let's do it. Thanks, Susan.

Curious about the concepts we talked about in this episode? Go to the leadersplaylistbook. Com to learn more and purchase the book. And stay tuned for the next episode of the Leaders playlist.