How to Start a Coaching Business Q&A with Terry Rice | 7/29/21

Cool. So we're doing some. Hey, I'm good, I'm good. Let's hop into our Q and A.

Here I am walking around in Manhattan, so I'm going to turn my video off, but I really wanted to catch you. Hang on. Yeah. So what's going on? Well, so much has happened and thank you for rehashing what I do so well. One clarification was just that I'm used to reviewing them as a selection committee member, as a client, not writing them. So that's like the thing that is a unique differentiator because not many clients actually have the dual background to tell people what to do because they just don't know what other people do anyways. But I've seen it. So that's just a little clarification. But. Okay, let me see. So I don't know if I ever told you I do that, but I also realize that this framework applies as like a really powerful pitching framework. Like you're ever trying to convince someone of something it could be applicable. And I had someone in London that I had reached out to. I think I mentioned this on a student collaboration for helping, like, young design students apply to their dream jobs. So she, like, really ran with it and wanted me to participate in her, like, live workshops. And that's happening this week and next week. So it's an interesting, like, offshoot of what I'm doing, but slightly not related and maybe distracting. So I'm just trying to see if that turns into more of the automated piece because I have this hunch that doing a course like one of your seasons of course consulting and coaching, is it the third C? But the course aspect with architects feels like they want me to sign MBAs every time they wanna work with me because it's proprietary information. So one on one, they're really latching on. And I'm very close to closing. Like, one person and another person said they would do it, but then backed out. And then there's a third person I'm talking to later today. So there's a lot of interest on one on ones all of a sudden, as a result of my website, which I did before, and the kind of coursework I'm kind of stuck on, where I have 15 people signed up on a wait list because of my website. But then when I reached out to them, saying, call me as an accept, I heard crickets. So it's like, how interested are these people really? So I kind of at a phase where I'm trying to first of all wrap up that atlas for grad thing because that's happening live and then really come to terms with how do I develop a course and is it more for the college students and is it just 50 bucks? Can I play a numbers game? I just do one on one coaching for my RFP people because I find it amazing to work with designers that have great proposals. But RFP audits are really starting to stick for people or one on one implementation. So anyhow, that's where I am. I need to pick a lane because I'm feeling a little overwhelmed. That's part of it. Let's leave it there.

All right, well, let's kind of take a step back. First of all, thanks for dialing. I know it's like about to storm in New York. So if you have to hop off, I get here, I'm looking out the window right now. I can tell it's about the thunderstorm.

To a ferry back to Jersey and I'm like, wait, make it to the ferry before it starts pouring. Okay. That's what I'm saying.

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I think a few things. If you're getting interest in one on one work, I would definitely take it because you'll get more input on what your audience needs help with and, and you're more or less doing social listening at the same time. And then beyond that, you're building up the testimonials and referrals needed to build your business more. So I, I wouldn't turn that down. I mean, long term, it's hard to scale that unless you want to, you know, increase your rates. But I would say absolutely. And then with the people that are on your wait list more or less and have not responded yet, maybe they don't want a phone call. Maybe they just want to buy the course so you can have a more direct action saying, hey, here's how you can sign up for in advance. Another thing you can do is say, hey, you know, what's your hesitation in regards to moving forward? You know, what questions can I answer? So and so forth. But I'd say you're, you're in a good spot. I think what's happening is you're becoming successful in lanes you weren't expecting because before it was just going to be for architects, now it's for students. And you have this whole Atlas framework which appears to be applicable to many different disciplines, and that's fine. But you're one person, so you do want to make sure that you're scaling your energy and your efforts in a way that's aligned with success, especially still having a full time job and I'm.

Up for a promotion and I don't want to ruin things yet. So in a sense that I don't want to ruffle their feathers. So I'm already going beyond my Weaver in a way where it's so unclear I don't want to touch it again. But it was more for teaching a course which is why I like was pigeoning hole, pigeonholing myself into the course because that's what's explicitly stated. But I just don't want to revisit that right now with my work. So I've been trying to lay low with the one on ones. It's not illegal, it's just I have to go through due process to make sure it's okay.

Okay, well how about this? I mean how about the one on one work you still steer towards the course and you say look for right now and if this sounds good for right now, look, I can't do one on one work because I have a full time job, I'm a mom and this is the scope I can provide help through. But when I do decide to take on one on work, one on one work, it's going to be for people first who took the course because they'll be more prepared for me to help them due to having this foundation established already. So you could phrase it that way to kind of force them to take the course before they can work with you.

Yeah, no, that's one way for sure. The other way is just to like do it and then because it's not even in New York City, but I'm trying to work because in D.C. there's no conflict. Right. So it's almost like bureaucracy. But regardless, that's one thing and one other thing I wanted to talk to you about because it also relates to these one on ones and maybe just getting me less distracted. It's helpful. So remember that guy I mentioned before that wanted to like do that like incorporation together and work with his business but have me provide a service to his business and he's like made a lot of money so far. Supposedly located in British Columbia, I think I told you but there were a few additional conversations with him and he said he's doing a challenge in the fall where he wanted to put my service on there. But you know, if we, if we did an MDA together and a non compete like he could have recurring like monthly business for me for like a long time where I would be doing RFP audits for his clients. What do you think? Should I really just like completely expat right now?

Yeah, I want to check for understanding. So yeah. And Kevin, you might find this interesting too. So this guy will partner with you in regards to just all to say, helping you get business, but he's saying you have to form a business with him, like official business with him in order to do so. Is that correct?

Well, that was before, but now after having further conversations, it's actually boiled down to this. So I have to just find an NDA so he can share his platform data with me and also agree to a non compete where I don't pitch his clients. So he has a yearly subscription model where architecture firms and engineering firms, they sign on to a platform he has. So he wants to build this asset with me and have me as a service provider within his larger company.

Okay. So yeah, I mean, so I would say who's he quantifying as one of his clients? Is it someone on his email list? Someone who's following him on social media? I would find that out from first.

He said they pay. He said they pay. They pay a yearly subscription and that they would pay me if they choose to like work with me. So I'd get like a $thousand or $3,000 based on what service I do.

At the surface level, it doesn't sound as not good as it did the first time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I mean I would. What work do you have to do up front to partner with this guy? Anything.

I just have to create a menu of my services and find an mba and that's one of it. And he was also like trying to help me produce my course. Like they're very interested in partnering with me like this. So I, I'm just seeing that as like maybe a five year plan when I quit my day job and not like a current plan. That's where I'm really stuck. Like do I really want to do this and make myself so busy where I lo control of my timing? You know, that's, that's my reluctance here.

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's worth kind of exploring the opportunity. I wouldn't go super deep into it. I think we just, she just, we just lost her. Unfortunately, it's being recorded. Don't worry. Let's see if she comes back on. And then Marion, I see you just joined too. So let me know if you have any questions. I can bring you on as a panelist as well. But Kevin, I'm not sure if you heard, but more or less and this happens all the time. Someone wants to partner with you early on in your business, and it can be beneficial sometimes, but it can also be a distraction. So you have to vet people properly to make sure it's a good fit.

Sorry I lost you, but I'm back. I lost you right when you started speaking.

Yeah. And luckily I just kind of rehashed what you were saying. But on mine, I think it's worth kind of testing it out, almost like a beta, to see how it goes, because you're not getting too invested. You're just giving him a scope of services. Right. You're not, like, producing anything. You're not doing anything. You know, too much work is so long as it doesn't not become an interruption where you're spending, like, hours a week on it. See what happens. Because it might be overwhelmingly successful for all you know. And you're like, well, shoot, maybe I can kind of accelerate my, you know, my path towards entrepreneurship if this works. So if they're that curious about working with you and that flexible in regards to the arrangement, I think it's worth further pursuit and just see what happens from there.

Yeah, and I agree with you because I don't enjoy this, like, chasing people to be my clients thing. I'm starting to feel, like, the sense of anxiety when, like, invoices are late or not paid. Like, I'm starting to feel like one on one, one on ones are a lot. So if someone was like, hey, I'm bringing you the people and I'll pay you, it's almost like, wow, okay, Is it too good to be true? That's where my mind is at.

Well, with your one on ones get paid in advance, so that's what I'm supposed to do.

But then they get stuck and then I like, okay, so it's only been three days, and that's the question I had for you. How long, like, do people take to pay you before, like, when you go from call to agreement, is it too much time? When it's like a week? And how many times do you follow up?

Yeah, well, I'll explain this way. So when I do, like, hourly consulting, which I don't typically do, it's like a. I'll call it a power hour. They pay when they book the time with me on my schedule. I use a tool called acuity, and through acuity, they would pay you before they can even make the appointment. So you can do that in regards to how soon should they pay after you sign up for them? They sign up with you Through a different, I would say arrangement, I would be leery about actually doing anything until they pay you without getting first time.

Right, right, right.

If it's your first time working with someone.

Yeah, yeah, no, I haven't started anything. I'm just trying to figure out, like, they told me they want to go ahead, they want to sign this NDA and then pay me, but they haven't paid me yet. So at what point do I, like, push versus just lay back until they make a decision? Because some people just decide not to work with me and then don't tell me. So I'm like, wait, unless I follow up. So, okay, well, that's helpful because right now I'm just doing discovery calls. I'm not charging. And then after the discovery call, I send them a proposal and then what they agree on, then I send them an invoice and then I get started to work. But I haven't actually gotten started to work. I've just gotten to like, the proposal phase so far and the invoice phase. And then something happens where they drop.

And Kevin's chiming in here saying, you know, what are the price point for your services? To see if that's where the friction's coming from.

Interesting. So, I mean, with the audit, it's 1200, and people haven't said no yet. They said yes, the implementation was 3,000, and somebody agreed to that. It's just when they realized that for me to be functional with them, they need to set aside time to actually work with me. I think they freak out a little, being like, oh, it's too much investment. Because people develop proposals in such a rush. Like, they spend two days on it when they should be spending a little more time on it. So I think maybe that's what I'm facing, that they don't have enough time to work with me to be effective yet. So they're worried about investing in something they might not have enough time because I forced meetings on them. Like, I need to do a certain amount with you to make sure you're successful.

Would it help if I provided a recommendation on, like, how to maybe structure this so that you don't have late invoices and whatnot, Especially given your price point. Would that help?

I'd be happy with any advice, but yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

So one good thing that you're doing, you're doing a discovery call.

And by the way, my specialty is.

Inbound sales, so I collect money all the time.

And so one of the things that.

You might want to consider is break up your call into two calls. So after you do a discovery collect, the like, you have all the information to create a proposal. Right. And so you're going to create a custom proposal with them. Schedule another time to discuss the actual scope of work and make sure that it makes sense. You can drop the price on that call. And just since your pricing is so low you like. Is there any reason why you're not collecting at the end of that call, by the way?

Oh, is it. Is that. Sorry, say that again. Is there a reason why I'm not mentioning it on the call?

No. Is there any reason why you're not.

Collecting the payment on the second call on the final, like what we call a close call?

Oh, interesting. Well, I'm not doing a close call, which is maybe the problem. I'm leaving it at Discovery, sending a proposal and then leaving it to them to do it and then schedule a kickoff call. Like I'm missing that second. Let's get on a call to pay me. Because they usually have to go off to their principal or decision maker and like, then get the credit card. I mean, I'm not sure these are businesses. It's like a person to a business model versus what is it like individual to individual? It's not coaching B2C. B to B2C, C to B. I.

Guess if it's B2C, this is like. Yeah, standard practice, actually. But the reason why I'm suggesting it as well is because that way you can eliminate any objections, like, upfront rather than like, and just address anything that's. That's actually what's on their mind. Because sometimes when they avoid the invoice, it's for a reason that they don't want to disclose to you. But if you can get that out in the open and build enough trust, perhaps you can work out a solution then. Does that make sense?

Yeah. No. Thank you for that advice. I actually did a loom video explaining my proposal and I found more success that way where it's beyond a PDF and like, I'm on video explaining what I'm trying to do and that converts. It's just that last bit now where they pay me to get started that seems to be taking too long and enough for them to change their minds. So that's. So I guess I have to solve for that with the second call that you're saying. That's interesting. Yeah. What do you think, Terry?

I think it's great advice and Kevin's an expert on this stuff, so it makes sense. And are they watching the Loom video, too. Are you checking to make sure they're watching the video?

Yeah, this person did. This person did. And then they said. They even told me the next step is for me to finalize the NBA and then we will process the invoice and we'll get going. So they've told me. So maybe a part of this is me and my money mindset and being a little bit, like, anxious because it's the beginning.

And it's been three days, you said, Right?

It's been. They agreed two days ago over email. NDA was sent, revised yesterday, and it's.

Been a day since.

I haven't heard that.

Did they open that email?

Yeah, they did.

Okay, give me one second. My audio just went off for some reason. Let me double check here real quick, Actually, maybe it was yours. Can you unmute and say something real quick? Oh, okay. I can hear you now. Okay. So they did see it. I mean, it's been three days, so I would kind of just chill a little bit and.

Yeah, I just need to chill. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, you never know what's going on. I mean, there's people who recently asked me to send them an invoice for them paying me, and I haven't done it yet because it's like, I have stuff to do. I think give it a week. If you want a solid answer, give it a week and see what happens, and then you can follow up. But I think three days, you know, especially during the summer, people have stuff to do.

They're.

They're traveling, whatever. And I feel like traveling.

Exactly. Decision makers might be traveling. Okay. And I don't want to come off as too, like, pushy either. So that's a happy balance. This is. Would be solved if I accept. Like, this would be solved if it was an automated course. I think I'm an introvert, and I kind of don't like this. So my future goal is to have a course that just converts itself, but it's hard to get there without trying these things first. So. I get that. Yeah. Okay. Well, I took up a ton of time, but I think. Thank you.

But, yeah, I think Kevin's idea of having those two calls is probably beneficial as opposed to just one and then waiting because, well.

Well, when would you schedule that second call, though? When you're on the phone and you're like, oh, can. Can we set up another half an hour and talk about my proposal?

Like, how I. I would. If you can. And then if you can't, I would immediately follow up with with your availability. And what I do in that case is two things. I'll either give them a link to my acuity to schedule a phone call or. Or I use a different tool called Mixmax M I X M A X. And with that you can block off even more time than normal because you can have a custom schedule available for them like tomorrow between 9am and 12, like whatever it is. So even more availability outside of your normal schedule. Cause it's so important. And that would just be in a follow up email. They push a button, it books for them automatically.

Oh, I see. Because right now I'm on Calendly, but I know you recommend acuity. I just paid for Calendly before I took your course, so.

Okay, well calend acuity will do the same thing. The difference with Mixmax is you can quickly create a custom availability just for that one person.

Oh, oh, okay.

So let's pretend you're normally only available between like I'll pretend five and six. Right. That's your life. If you're like, look, this is really important, you can open up more availability and you're like, no, I'm free tomorrow between 9am and 9pm let's just get this call in without adjusting your visibility to everyone else who might then jump in there and take that time. And the tool I use for that is called Mix Mix M I X M A X. And it'll be directly in the email that you send them.

Oh, wow, that's very interesting. And it integrates into Calendly.

No, it integrates with Zoom if that helps. Okay, yeah, Zoom or Google Meets.

Yeah, no, this is really helpful. Oh, go ahead.

Oh, Terry, you might appreciate this because you know I love technology but sometimes I've actually like for this type of stuff I like to take a step back and not use tech for this as well.

Sometimes it's just like what I like.

To do is just book a time that works for them as well. So would it make sense for me to kind of break down like the three questions I asked like before I book a call for them as well? Like would that be helpful for you?

You know we're not gonna say no, Kevin.

Yeah, well it's your hosting session.

Because I don't wanna. I'm just trying to be not rude. But yeah, like how I like to wrap up my calls is like, especially if I'm setting the next appointment is like, hey, finally.

It sounds like we've covered a lot.

Of ground here, but is there anything else that I should know about you that we haven't spoken about that would help me build a better game plan for you. So I'm already seeding the thought that I'm building a custom proposal, game plan, whatever you want to call it. And I'm seeding that as well. And then the second question would be, it's a timing question. So if we were to go ahead.

With this, I don't know what to.

Call your service, but like let's say coaching, mentorship, whatever service, when would you consider starting? Right, Something like that. So you understand their timing. And then what I like to ask is like, hey, so whatever their name is, with your permission, I can go ahead and build a custom proposal and set up another appointment to see if what we're doing here would work for your situation. Would that be appropriate?

Okay.

So that way you get their. And then you just arrange the time. Be like, when are you most available? And then you can just like arrange a time as well and just book it on the calendar. That way you're not leaving in the dark. So one important thing that my consultant friend from ey, he was a senior manager, he always told me, always know the next steps. And in this case, it's like making sure that you have a timeframe of when you're next communicating with. So that's how I usually book it. And there's usually no friction at that point.

Yeah, no, that's amazing. I feel like I'm doing most of that except when I send them the proposal, I do it over email where I'm like, let me know if you're happy with it, then I will send you an invoice and then they actually respond. But if I have a loom video, so I feel like I'm replacing that phone call with the loom video, but I should do the phone call if I think that converts as an experiment. But yeah, I, because I have a 9 to 5, I have to stay outside those boundaries. That complicates the multiple in person touch points thing. So.

The loom videos work? Yeah, Loom videos work very well actually too. But you know, especially when you're dealing with engagements and whatnot and more customized services, it's always good. A good, it's always good to get a feeling of what their, their pain points are, what they like, what they don't like, and get that feedback on the spot. And especially as you're building out your course, that's something good to keep in mind because you're getting more. You're getting more customer research so that you can incorporate that in your course in the future.

Yeah, no, that's true. Because now I noticed that like a whole bunch of engineers have signed up for my course and not architects. It's so strange. It's really like questioning my assumptions on who needs help most on the course versus one on ones are like the more advanced they called themselves. Oh, actually she said this to me. She's like, maybe we're too advanced for your course. Do you do one on ones? But I'm not positioning my course advanced enough. Well, it depends, like if you're. Yeah, yeah, there's some tweaking there. I guess I have another question because I was taking a Daniel Leslie, like, chorus. I don't know if you know her course from scratch. And she said that it's better to be off camera for like positioning yourself as a higher power versus being on zoom. But I. Oops. Yeah. Can you hear me? Yeah, I feel like I'm advanced enough where I can convince people on camera. Like, I'm not shy. Like I'm pretty confident. Have you ever heard of that?

I'll repeat that. She's saying it's better to be off camera as opposed to in front of the camera to have more authority.

Yeah, because she. She has a script she wants you to follow. So I kind of do that. But adjust it so I have a script of hers which is supposed to convert. And apparently like her advice is don't be on the video. It doesn't put you in a position of authority. I don't know if I should agree with that.

I don't know. I mean, it's my first time hearing that, but I don't think she's. I assume she's saying it. There's a reason that's worked for. For her and her clients in the past. I'm not saying that's the only way, but I don't think she's saying it just to say it. Yeah, Karen, looks like you had some thoughts on that too.

Yeah, I know why people actually say it. And it's all about context. Right. So I don't know the context of her audience, who she's talking to. But when you're first initially doing sales calls, the last thing you want to worry about is like non verbal cues and all that as well. So by turning off your video like you can, you only need to worry about your voice, your tonality. But as you get more. As you get more advanced too, you get more comfortable. So like, for myself, I'm okay being on video. It doesn't bother me one one bit at all. I'm on YouTube. I do like a lot of different things. So whatever's more comfortable for you. I would say though, like if you're on video, it's. It just adds another friendly face. It builds, it can build more rapport, but especially if you're beginning and you're stumbling. Yeah, it could really screw things up too. So.

Double edged sword. Yeah, I think that's where she's coming from because she's teaching to a complete beginner audience who's trying to decide what the course is versus knowing what they want to teach. So I see that. Well, there's lots of things to digest here. I actually have a call today with someone at 5:30. That's the workshop call I mentioned where somebody wants me to host a workshop virtually. So I'm hoping to use these tips today to figure out how to close it faster.

Is that, is that a paid workshop?

That's the one I said is to a marketing group. I don't want to do it if it's not paid. So I will quote her. I will have to figure out how to approach that. I'll be like, should I just ask is this a paid opportunity or should I kind of, what should I do?

So here's the thing. If you don't want to do it unless it's paid, what I got in the habit of doing is asking that question before I even get on the phone. I would say, hey, can you give me more information about the audience, your desired outcome and your budget? I will bundle those three questions that way. Really all I want to know is the budget.

Right.

Like all the other stuff figure out later. But I would say that in the initial email because especially someone like you as a 9 to 5 when you're busy, there's really no point getting on the call if they're not going to pay you. But if you just wanted to do it for the exposure or the reps.

Yeah, you know, now that I'm saying it, I should do it for the exposure because it's located in Seattle and this group really helped me convert and get to my website. And I think I have like 50 email collections from my lead magnet. And like people are like, somehow me coming off of a podcast or off of a workshop really converts people into my email list. So I should keep that in account then maybe it's helpful even if it's paid or not paid.

But yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean I've made more money often through a appearance as opposed to from an appearance. So keep that in mind. But the whole budget thing, when you're doing that, you want to say against, to reiterate, like, you know who's going to be in the audience. What's your desired outcome from this talk? What's your budget? If you can get a number, a number of attendees, that's important too, because if it's five attendees, your price might be one month. If it's 500 attendees, the price goes way up. So the more that you know going into it, the better. And you can kind of avoid that awkwardness during the conversation.

Yeah, no, that's a very good point. Okay, no, this is. She is kind of the program manager of smps, which is like a, like a national marketing professionals organization that charges the membership. So I'm sure they have a budget for like, the more fancier keynote speakers versus, like, I did a free version of this in New York City as a, like, I need the exposure thing early on in my, like a month ago, but now I would like to be paid some amount for it. So it's not totally free.

Last thing I'll say on that is make sure you have your rate in mind too. Because if she says, well, how much do you charge? You can't say, like, I'll get back to you because you should know, like, what you're worth. Yeah, so have that in mind too. Otherwise it's going to be really awkward. You're not going to seem prepared.

Yeah, I know you had mentioned, like, start off with 3000, but I have like, like pricing mindset blocks right now. And when actually, Kevin, you said, oh, that's such reasonable rates. I was like, really? Oh, so is that a reasonable thing to say? Like, if it's like 20 people, I charge $3,000 for a workshop.

If they reached out to you, you have all the leverage because you were minding your own business, like watching your kid, and someone emailed you saying, can you come talk to us? So the worst that'll happen is they'll say, oh, that's way outside of our budget. And you would say, okay, well, look, you know what? What do you have available? I want to find a way to make this work. And then from there they'll give you whatever the number is.

Okay. No, so it's helpful maybe getting into pricing after asking also, what's the typical audience? Like you said, like, finding out more so those questions. Maybe this is why people have contact me for speaking engagements as a separate challenging. Because they have different questions. Right. Like, these are the things you want to know in advance of Your call. Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. Well, thank you guys so much. I'm really appreciative of both of your advice, so thanks. I'll keep you posted.

Yeah, yeah, please do.

Okay, thank you.

And Marian, I see you're on too, so I'm going to kind of demote you to an attendee. But Marian, I see you're on too, so if you have any questions you want to come up, let me know. But for now, Kevin, let's just keep on catching up with you. I see your background. You have clouds on one side and like fire on the other. Is that like, do you turn them on or off depending on your mood or how's that? How's that go?

So how I have a setup is like, I wanted to represent, like the two different sides of me. Like, I'm very creative, but I also have like a very fiery energy. So that's. I added those subtle lights and stuff behind me. I'm trying to focus more on my content and even on my sales calls too, to provide like a look and feel in extension of my brand when people talk to me as well. So, yeah, I'm really embracing my artist side more recently. Something I haven't done in years.

Yeah, my brand is kettlebells. And Sorosh is asking just for clarification what you do. Do you mind just giving her some background there?

Yeah, so what I do, I do inbound sales. I also, I do fulfillment and strategy too. So I basically specialize in what you're doing right now when it comes to sales calls. And I teach people how to kind of sell in a non salesy way, not the old school, like pick up the phone and jam it down the throats, like Jordan Belford type of style. I have a more relaxed style style which doesn't feel sleazy and as a result, like, you just feel like more like yourself. And you actually enjoy doing these sales calls too. So yeah, that's what I do. And I do YouTube too.

Kevin. So while we're kind of chatting here in regards to like money blockers, I think it'll be beneficial to kind of talk about that because one thing that you said before was it's easier for you to sell other people's services as a closer than your own services. Can you unpack more or less why you felt that way and how you solved for that in the recent past?

Yeah, I can talk about that. I think there's two stages I went through. So the first stage was kind of like being able to ask for money and just to Let you guys know, I've closed like 15, 20k, even 50k packages and stuff and programs. But when I first started, it wasn't easy. So step one was like really getting comfortable asking for that. And I had to deal with a lot of my money beliefs and all that sort of stuff as well. But once I got comfortable with that, I was like, okay, I want to launch these coaching services that I have and also in the future do larger engagements such as, like Terry's always been telling me, hey, you should do corporate, like, type of things, organizational solutions as well. And as I, as I was venturing down this route, I was like, man, it's not the money that scares me, it's the fulfillment part that scares the crap out of me, like, making sure that I can actually deliver on these services too. And so recently I actually pitched my highest solution I did, just to give you guys context, I did a cohort, a coaching cohort, 2k each. I did a beta launch. All four of them sold out, a hundred percent close rate and stuff like that, which told me I probably priced it too low. And then I wasn't even thinking about relaunching that program again. But one of my current students, they love my program so much that they came up to me and the like, hey, Kevin, I want to interview for your next, next coaching package. And she was basically telling me, sell me something. I was like, okay. I was talking to Terry, I was like, I gotta create something like really, really quickly that, that fits her needs. So I basically did what we were talking about earlier, going on Discovery call, seeing what they needed, how would that make them feel, all that sort of stuff. And then I created a custom proposal which made our eyes light up as well. So I actually presented a 10k solution. She didn't have it, so I worked with her on it. I didn't discount my rates, but I changed the engagement. And that's why I was saying, like having that live feedback and, and thinking on your feet, you can still win the deal and get what you want. You just, you can just remove some of the deliverables that you promise with a higher, higher package. But it just felt really, really good. And at first I was like, damn it, I could have like, I wanted that 10k deal. I was so attached to that because as a closer, you're trying to maximize your revenue that you, you pull in and obviously help the people. But then I realized, like, hey, this is my business. She obviously loves my services and just wants to pay me money just to work with me. To interact with me, so why wouldn't I do that? So I'm actually in the middle of structuring a whole new program on how to do content and stuff like that as well. And she's super excited. I saw her feedback and I saw her eyes light up. And that was the moment when I realized, like, dude, it's time to ascend to the next level. I've been selling other people's products my, like, over the last two or three years. Now it's time to sell my own stuff. So focusing on the impact that you can make just through selling your products like that was a huge money blocker lifter for myself in particular.

And I'm glad that you're. You're making that progress. We have two questions, actually, so I'll just keep it with you right now. First question is, how did you break through that? Did you read, like, a book or something? And the second question was, in regards to. To getting these people to sign up for your program, was it through your email list or was it through YouTube? How did you attract people to you in order to convert?

Yeah, it was actually through content. Content is so powerful. Like, I'll answer a second question first and then I'll answer our first one, but the fir. The second one was just like, through content. And that's the beauty of content, because people get to see your personality. It's the most scalable way to. And free. It's like, free. And people just are attracted to you because of your personality. Think about it. In the sales world, there's so many people out there. There's like, Jordan Belfort, there's a lot of these different sales trainers, but when you create content, you show your personality, and that's your usp.

That's what I realized.

And so instead of me going out there trying to cold call people, just be like, hey, do you want my services? It's like these people magnetically draw to us. That's why I really like Terry, by the way, because on LinkedIn, like, I see your engagement on LinkedIn, and you're just, like, pulling people and you don't really have to try as well. So that's how I did it. This particular client, I got her through Clubhouse, of all things. Uh, she was. She wanted to launch a program on podcasting. She had no idea. So I was just, like, sharing free feedback with her and stuff. She's like, oh, my God, I want to learn more. So then center my lead magnet. And she just went down the funnel that way. It was very natural. Type of thing, and that's why it's so important. Like, everything that Terry's teaching is, like, having these assets in place allows, like, it allows it to do the heavy lifting so you don't have to physically go down that funnel yourself in terms of things with money beliefs.

I don't know.

I've read a lot of different books. I have, like, Ecker's book in the back and stuff, but no book has really stood out in mind. It's just really the experience. Honestly, I think the best thing for me over those money beliefs was just going through the actual real struggles and experiences of, like, being scared and it's okay to be scared and going through those moments where I'm, like, stuttering and I lost a sale that way. Those moments actually helped me a lot because I'm just like. Like, introspective. I'm thinking, like, why am I exactly scared? What is the meaning that I'm putting behind this experience as well and going through that psychoanalyst as well. And I've learned to be a lot more in touch with my feelings because previous career actually was a pharmacist, and I'm very logical, all this and that. But through actually going through the experience of sales and whatnot, it's allowed me to kind of be more in tune and have a higher EQ as well. So everything from, like, I've been reading everything from relationship stuff to, yes, actual money stuff, but experience is the number one thing that's really helped me the most, in my opinion.

Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, you can read all the books you want and all the great tips, but until you actually do it and put yourself in that position, you're not learning anything. Because, like, you can consume information, but you have not learned anything to actually apply it. And there's a big difference between those two. And, yeah, you got to lean into it. I remember one time I was talking to this woman in regards to my rates, and she's like, how much is it? And like, I said, the rate. You know, I finally get out my mouth, you know, even though I was nervous, and she's like, wait a second, you broke up a minute. Can you say that again? I said it again, but I lowered the rate. I don't know why, but at first I said, like, for those, like, 100 bucks. And I said, like, 70. I'm like, what the hell did I just do? I'm somewhat positive she did that on purpose. Kind of like icing a kicker before they have to take a field goal, you call a timeout and make them think about it. But you know, when you just, when you just lock in and you know that you want to deliver these quality results, you know you can and you know your worth. You just got to put yourself out there. And if there's pushback, you can say, well, where's that hesitation coming from? You know, what's, why, why do you not feel like this would be worth it? You know, here's the outcomes you're going to get from it and it's going to pay off for, you know, for months or years to come. So where am I losing you? You know, over like a thousand dollars or $2,000 here or there. And if you are losing someone there, then they value money more than they value outcomes. It's like, you know, if I'm 100 bucks away from solving this problem, I'll give you 100 bucks. I mean, I would watch a three minute video on how to do something. It was going to make me help. 10,000. Make that $10,000. So yeah, I mean, I think just really focusing on that and leaning into it and realizing you're not going to win every deal, that's fine. But if you win 33% of your deals at $10,000, as opposed to, you know, 50% of your deals at $4,000, you're still making more money charging $10,000 even though you're winning less deals. Don't took my math on that. But moral story is, you know, you don't have to win every single one to be successful. You got to find the right people that are, that see the value that you provide.

Yeah. And the beauty about that too, especially. How do I say her name? Soroshi. Is that how I say it? Is that right? Yeah. So for Saroshi, the beautiful thing is that she's still jumping on calls. And one thing that I've seen for people is like for most business owners, the people that are scared to jump on the calls never grow. But it's like this is like it gets easier, believe it or not. It might not feel like it, but it always gets easier as well. And it's just like it's not a forever thing. And I think remembering that too, that it's like building blocks.

Right.

You're just getting in your reps also brings a lot of relief to me and, and relieves a lot of the pressure as well. Right. So, yeah, yeah.

And I think that's why maybe initially way not having the camera on helps on my part sometimes like a guy can be a loud swallower. So when you say your price, you're like, you know, you have that, that hesitation, like you know, maybe, maybe mute after that if you have that problem. But the more confident you are and the more, well, the more clear you are, the more confident you'll be be. Because clarity is the precursor to confidence. And then from there the right people will align with you and you'll get rewarded for that. So it all, it all works out all right, so hopefully that helps. But Kevin, on your end, is there anything else you want to ask or share? I feel like you've been really great resource on this call, but if you have any questions too, I'm happy to hop in there as well.

No, I was just really inspired by our conversation earlier. It made me feel my mind think about how like, so for context, people who are watching this, I've been really focusing on doubling, downing on like higher quality content.

Right.

If you see my last three, four YouTube videos, they're a little bit more cinematic. Like I insert quotes, I insert like a lot of different things to increase engagement. And on my YouTube analytics side, it's been killing it. It's been like 10x the performance of my previous video, which is already paying off. But in addition, recently this pretty big sales trainer actually reached out to me. He saw my content, he was like, dude, I'm so motivated that I'm so glad to see that there's other people who are so passionate about our industry speak on these things. And it made me think, there's so many people I quoted in those videos. And by having such a high quality, high quality video, if I can just reach out to them and be like, hey, I actually shouted you out in this video, man, that's like the best form of like, that's one of the best forms of gratitude and ways to connect. Because not only did you say, hey, great stuff, no, I actually implemented it into my piece of content, which I spent 24, 48 hours scripting this out and I'm implementing it. I'm showing you how I'm implementing it too. So that's actually a thought that I had in our conversation. Right now I'm probably going to reach out to this YouTuber Matthew Bello, just to like thank him because I took his course and I'm actually implementing everything and I shouted his video out recently. So I'm just trying to think about all the, all the connections I really want to make as well going forward.

So yeah, you know, if you wanted to, you could probably ask that guy like, hey, do you want to do a video together where I talk about how much you help me? Because then it's like a testimonial video. It's like, hell, yeah. Like, why wouldn't I? And then you're getting in front of him, you're getting in front of his audience, so on, so forth. So I would. I would do that. Then next time, read a book about something, reach out to the author. You know, say, hey, I made this video about how great you are. Like, how would you feel about me interviewing you on my YouTube channel? So when Kevin disappears, like, that's because he has a whiteboard. I think he's writing on a note. I hope that's what's happening right now. That's my guess.

Yeah, I was writing it down on my whiteboard, but it was really, really solid.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm glad to help, but that's the way you make these connections. You don't like DM someone saying, oh, is there any way, you know, I can help you? You know, how can we work together? It's like, no, I've already done all this stuff. Right? And then I'd like to extend this. And the best time to reach out to someone like that is when they have a book coming out, when they have a course, whatever it is, something they want to promote. And you're now another marketing channel for them. So use that to your advantage and have an excuse to reach out to someone as opposed to just saying, oh, you're so great. Can I have, like, 15 minutes of your time? Or whatever? That's not going to land as well as it could.

You want to know something, though? When you said that, a bit of fear actually kicked up in me. I'm like, oh, fuck, am I good enough to ask him on my channel? Am I good enough to. Like, that was initial. Initial reaction, which was pretty interesting.

Well, what are they going to do? Like, giggle at you? You know what I mean? That's the worst that's going to happen is someone's going to either ignore you, I mean, or just say, you know, politely say, no. No one's going to laugh at you and say, who are you, peasant? Like, that doesn't happen. It wouldn't be worth their time to do that. So I. I mean, shoot your shot in and you're doing it in a constructive way. You're not just bothering someone. But when I hear people say, like, oh, I'm afraid to do this, I'm like, you're freaking emailing people. Like, I have friends that used to do door to door sales, like knocking on doors, saying, hi, stranger, may please come in. And you're afraid to send an email. It's like, come on, dude. Like, it's, it's not that hard. When I was in college, I did telemarketing. I would call people and say, hey, would you like to take out a mortgage on your home? You don't know me, but I'm just curious, you know, like, let me ask you some questions. So these days you can just DM someone, you can just email somebody and get, you know, this, this interaction from them or get ignored. But when I got an interaction from someone about telemarketing, they said more than just no, right? You know, they said there's some pretty colorful stuff. So I say shoot your shot, but just do it constructively and you'll be very, you know, very successful at that.

No, it's funny, like, hearing you talk about that story, I'm like, dude, I'm less scared about asking 20k from someone.

Than I am, like, asking someone to be on my video or something like that. That's.

It's kind of. It's kind of. It's kind of. It puts things in perspective and it's like, it's not that scary after all.

Yeah. I mean, Soroshi saying that she used to, like, when she was at MIT, she would call alumni, asking them for $10,000. Right? Someone's just minding their own business, watching, like, you know, married with children or whatever, and you're like, hey, by the way, you know, like, instead of going on vacation or buying a new car, would you like to just give us money to some kid you've never met before? If you can do that. I mean, you can reach out to someone and say, hey, I have this thing I'd like to talk to you about, or I'd like to have you. Have you on my podcast. Can I do an email interview with you? Those are the easiest things. An email interview with someone and you can still talk about what they said in your video. You can say, yeah, I reached out to this person and they said this and, like, have that text, like on the screen if you want to make it more, you know, more colorful or whatever. But email interviews are very easy because it requires very little time on their end. They might just be copying, pasting something, but you're still getting that interaction from that person as well. So, yeah, do all that stuff. Kevin's laughing at the whole Miracle children thing. I'm glad you actually have seen that show. Because that was. That was back in the 80s or early 90s.

Dude, you're dating yourself pretty hardcore. I was just like a little kid. I was like 2 years old or 3 years old. I remember that show.

Yeah. I mean, I own it, though. Like, I'm like, whatever. I'm not trying to be that guy who's trying to sound hip because it doesn't. It doesn't land too well. I'd rather, like, work out and feel young than just try to talk. Talk like I am. It's like, it's better to.

To.

To be rather than seeming, in my opinion. So that's my. That's my approach on that. All right, well, listen, Shirosh, you had to drop before this weather hits, and I'm gonna take off, too. But, Kevin, it was great chatting with you, as always. Everyone else, hope you found some value in this. And if you do want to ask some questions in real time, please do join next week. The way you do that is by joining the online course. Then you get access to this every week, week for live Q and A. But outside of that, thanks for your time and looking forward to talking to you soon.