Jackie Hermes Interview: How to Navigate the Downsides of Entrepreneurship

I feel like that's why I can never quit at anything because I'm always like, what if I quit today? And tomorrow was the day that like, I made all of this happen for me. So like LinkedIn, it might not be going exactly how you wanted to for 90 days, but it could be day 91 where you get the attention of someone or so many different things could happen. I feel like that with my business too. I could quit today, but. But what if tomorrow is the day that, you know, like, we close a big deal.

Today we have two time entrepreneur Jackie Hermes to share how you can view challenges as opportunities and navigate the not so fun parts of entrepreneurship. This is the launch your business podcast because we know starting a business is challenging, but it doesn't have to be confusing. Each week we'll give you the tactical advice and the necessary tools to scale your business and without feeling burnt out. I'm Terry Rice, business development consultant and staff writer here at Entrepreneur Magazine. Let's dive in. Jackie Hermes is a two time entrepreneur, brand builder, startup mentor and LinkedIn expert. And she owns a celity, a marketing agency that helps B2B software companies grow faster. And one thing that I really like about her is how transparent she is on social media, but not in some gimmicky way, just trying to get likes and comments and shares. She openly shares the highs and lows of her business in a very genuine way. And she even went so far as to share a compilation video of all the negative comments that she received on LinkedIn, which was somehow hilarious and encouraging at the same time. And that approach is a good example of what she'll share with us today. We'll discuss navigating the not so fun parts of entrepreneurship, how to view challenges as opportunities, especially in your first six months of business, and how to deal with negative people and clients. So let's get started right now. Hey Jackie, first of all, thank you so much for being here. Do you mind introducing yourself?

Yeah. I'm Jackie Hermes, the founder and CEO of a company called Excelity. We are a marketing agency that works with B2B software companies to grow faster. I also prefer previously founded Women's Entrepreneurship Week here in Milwaukee and now that is being run by another incredible local woman. And I have three kids. It's 11, 11 and 16. My 16 year old is like about to start applying for college, which is insane. And I'm a startup mentor. I work with a number of different companies just to help them figure out like how to scale. It's very interesting figuring out like how and when you need to hire certain people, especially in marketing. And every company does it different, different. And then I work on an app called Building Brave as well, which is like a women's mentorship app. And professional women from all over the place submit questions there, and then you get to go and answer them and have conversations with people. So it's pretty cool.

Awesome. I dig it. And one reason I want to talk to you is because you're very transparent on LinkedIn in regards to sharing your experiences and your advice. And I've seen before where you talk about the highs and lows of your ascension as an entrepreneur. So I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind just running down like that, that list, you know, of where you started from and where things are going right now.

Oh, God, yeah. I mean, so I became an entrepreneur 11. 11 years ago. Yes. It was right when my son Ari was born and I started a cookie company. And that one, I mean, it kind of got off the ground. We ended up getting it into 12 different grocery stores and making a decent amount of money. But, man, it's really hard to, like, make good money selling $5 bags of cookies. So it was a great, like, cut your teeth and entrepreneurship moment. And I saved a lot of the money that I made building that company to start Excelity, which I started nine years ago. We celebrated our nine year anniversary in May, which is kind of insane, honestly. And I started that as just like a solo consultant. I actually started it because I was having kids and I was like, I want more time to myself. Which in hindsight is honestly hilarious because I think I have less time to myself now.

Yeah, that didn't work out too well for me either.

Yeah, that's a decision that I made. So we started with like, providing services and outsourcing some of it, and then I started hiring employees and bringing it in house. And now we've got it. Team of about 20. We went fully remote when Covid happened and actually this month, while September is our last month in our office. So we're all done with that. I mean, that's the very abbreviated version, but it's been, it's been a wild ride.

And along those lines, one thing that I hear you talk about is how unsexy entrepreneurship can be. And I really want to go into this because we often hear about the highlights, like, oh, I'm doing this, I do that. I make my own schedule, look at my yacht, and so on and so forth, but people just gloss over or don't even talk about the Unsexy part. So, and I don't want to make this a downer, but can you talk about some of the not so fun things that you do even as a successful founder?

I mean, there's unsexy things that I do every single day and you get used to them. Right? Like, like, I still, I wouldn't. I'm not doing client work, but I still have a good relationship with all of our clients. And when they have something to complain about, you better believe they're calling or texting me. Right. And so I don't always get the joys of doing the good work, but I sure do field the complaints and solve a lot of problems. And it's like, it's good in some ways because I get to flex my problem solving skills. And I also am so used to just like taking feedback and I'm like a master at receiving feedback now, which is a silver lining of it. But also, you know, it's not fun to be the person that every issue, you're the last line of defense and it falls on you. And no one tells you too. When you start hiring employees, like, a lot of your time is spent on like staffing and HR and all these things that, you know, were not super interesting to me at the beginning, like the, you know, like the dealing with people issues. I do enough of that mediating my children and they're arguing at home, you know, like, I don't want to mediate grown adults at work. So luckily now we're at a size where we have an HR person and that is definitely a relief. But there's just a lot of things that I think as you grow, you didn't realize that you were going to be doing. And you kind of have to learn to really like the process of growing because every single thing you do is not going to be fun. I mean, I still have days where I'm like, man, why am I doing this? You know, I've been self employed for over 10 years and some days I'm like, I should get a job. Most days not right. But some days it's like, it's tough. And I think no one talks about that stuff. It's just like, look at me, I have this cool car and I, you know, like, I'm, I have a nice car, I'm going on vacations. But man, I put up with a lot of crap to get all of that.

Yeah, yeah, it's all, it's all well deserved. And you mentioned a few things that you have to deal with. One could be Unhappy customers. Another is just having a staff that reports to you. So for people that are just starting out their business, you know, maybe they're six months or less into it. What are some other unsexy things they should anticipate and how can they best deal with them?

Six months or less. We were dealing with cash flow, and I think just like, understanding how cash flows in and out and how you should be spending it. I am such a creative that I was always like, oh, yay, we have money or we don't, you know, and it was like I had to work really hard to get myself disciplined in understanding what it takes to run a business and how much overhead we can handle and how to appropriately pay people. Especially right now, if you are hiring your first employees. Employees are. And finding qualified people is hard. And people are really expensive right now, as they should be. Right. Like, employees are demanding what they're worth, but you have to be ready to pay that. Otherwise, you know, it can not be a great situation for you. So, gosh, I think that's what I was dealing with in, like, the first six or so months. But it's also like sales and having. Getting a good understanding of how to position your product or service. And you always, even when your pipeline feels good or full, you always should be doing more at all times because. And like, I've had deals that they'll say yes for six months and then they'll roll up and be like, oh, no, never mind. We were, you know, like, we were saying yes this whole time. But it's not going to happen. Like, I assume that nothing is going to close until it does. There's just. There's a lot to consider, I think, when you're getting started.

Yeah, it's a safe assumption because I've had that happen before as well. But thinking about sales, can you just tell a story or maybe just some advice on how you were able to get sales, especially when you didn't have a lot of credibility or testimonials or clients to speak of.

Yeah, I mean, it was like, all a networking game at the beginning. And I hardly do any networking now, thankfully, but, God, I feel like after a few years of working around Milwaukee, I knew every dang person that was showing up at these events because I was at them all the time. And I think at the beginning, it's about who you know and selling. Any experience that you do have in, like, parlaying that into your first couple of customers. Once you have a few customers, it's a lot easier to get More customers. But yeah, getting those first few can be tough.

But the networking thing is a bit more challenging these days because not as many events are happening in person and I feel for people who are going through that. But it's also an advantage because I remember going from Brooklyn to Manhattan to some random event, hoping to meet someone and then taking the train back, just, just disappointed and feeling like I wasted all my time. But now you can go on channels like LinkedIn and literally build your network by just following, engaging with people and eventually saying, hey, would you like to talk? And that's it. And I noticed on LinkedIn you put a lot of time and effort into building your brand, which is impressive. And one of your recent posts you actually talked about the revenue that came from it as well in regards to inbound leads. So do you mind just talking about, you know, how you, how you built your brand, what gave you the idea to do so and as well as the impact.

Yeah, what gave me the idea was. Q. Do you know him? Quentin Alums?

Yeah. Yeah, he was a cool guy. I like him a lot.

He is the one that came to me. Well, actually he was on my team and then we didn't, he was an intern and then we didn't work together for like a couple years and then he came back to me and was like, you need to get on LinkedIn. And I had seen him doing it and I was like, ooh, like that looks great for him but I really don't want to do that and.

Well, why didn't you want to do it?

I mean it was, it was early in the video platform and he was very much like vlogging, like, you know, like I'm walking down the street, I'm with this person, here's what I'm doing. And that still is not, not my cup of tea, you know, like where we were. Actually I was just with him yesterday and we were talking about TikTok and he's like, I need you to be, you know, like recording what you're doing when you're making coffee when you're doing this. And I was like, none of this is going to happen. Like I know myself and I'm not going to be like a day to day documenter. I would much rather have like more like polished and you know, like content that I'm like telling a whole story within the content and it's well produced and all of that. So I've just, I had to figure out how to make it work for me. But the way he was doing it I was like, and some people probably look at the way I do it and they're like, absolutely not right, but they will go and put out text posts or whatever it is. So I think that, yeah, I just didn't want to. I did not want to, like, be shooting videos of myself 24 7, which I did end up doing in the long run, but I was really not excited about it. And he, he kept saying, like, you have something to say, you need to get on there. It's a huge opportunity. I don't want you to miss it. And he finally convinced me and I hired his company to hold me accountable. And they were. They actually worked in the same office building as me. So, um, you know, they would come down to my office and be like, it's time to shoot videos. And I'm telling you, without that, like, accountability piece, I don't think I would have done it. Because if it were up to me to create and publish all the content, you better believe I would have found something, something else that's, quote, unquote, more important to do. It turned out being really important in the long run. But it's not always easy to see that right away. Right?

Yeah. I think the issue is that sometimes people will start posting, they'll put some content out and feel like nobody's listening, like, I'm not getting any likes, I'm not getting any follows or comments and so on. And I get it, you have to ramp up because you're the new person. But even then, people are listening and they're observing, and then out of the blue, someone's going to reach out and say, look, I saw that you said this in your post. Can you help me with this specific problem? And that's how you start this, this inbound marketing process. So on your end, can you just explain how you turn content into leads and eventually clients?

Yeah. One comment on what you just said is that's. I feel like that's why I can never quit at anything because I'm always like, what if I quit today? And tomorrow was the day that, like, I made all of this happen for me, you know, so, like LinkedIn, it might not be going exactly how you want it to for 90 days, but it could be day 91, where you get the attention of someone or you, you know, like, so many different things could happen. I feel like that with my business too. Like, you know, like, I could quit today, but what if tomorrow is the day that, you know, like, we close a big deal or whatever? Um, how I go about generating leads on LinkedIn. I have a slightly different approach, I think, than a lot of people who really focus on like being a practitioner in their area. You know, like, I follow a lot of people like Chris Walker. He is a practitioner. He's grown an amazing company and he also is like really deep in the marketing, you know, discipline. Same with Justin Welsh. He's a practitioner. He's out there talking exactly about what he's doing day to day to build. I think his like five companies to seven figures or more, which is freaking awesome for me. I take a little bit more of like a traditional personal brand approach where I'm talking about like, you know, like my experiences growing a company. I'm talking about marketing, I'm talking about my experiences as a mother and an entrepreneur and really like wanting to get people to relate to me on a deeper level than on that marketing strategy piece. And then on the back end, I am adding all of my prospects to my network and going and commenting on their content. They're seeing my content. And so it's just, it's a little bit different way to approach it. It's not truly as inbound y, I think, as, as a lot of people do it, but I always wanted my personal brand to be a launching pad for whatever I wanted to do in the future. And that's the agency, that's the course, that's. I have a couple product ideas in mind that I would love to start working on, you know, and I want this to be something that just goes with me and for the rest of my career, really.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break here, but when we come back, Jackie will provide more tips on how to generate revenue from your personal brand and how to deal with negative people. Just get started. If you've ever looked for tips on launching a business, just get started seems to come up a lot. And while that's vaguely motivational, it does not provide any real direction because the next logical question for anyone would be, well, how do I get started? What specifically should I do? Well, if you're looking to quickly start a business without the confusion, risk and pressure of doing something entirely new, I've got a solution for you. It's called the solopreneur's Fast Track, a step by step process on how to start a business using the skills you already have and actually enjoy using. So let's say your favorite part of a previous job was email marketing. You'll learn how to start a business offering other companies advice on how they can improve their email marketing. Or maybe you are really good at integrating complicated tech tools. You can help other organizations do the same thing without the need to bring on a full time hire. So the main point here is that everything you need to start a business is already within you. You don't need a cool website or fancy tools. And by completing the course, you'll also discover a simpler approach for attracting clients without using complicated funnels or cheesy sales tactics. You can finish it over a weekend and start making money in as little as 30 days. You'll gain the clarity and confidence you need to start your business and receive a one page business plan so you can immediately apply what you've learned. Get started today and receive a 20% discount by heading to terryrice co. Fast. That's terryrice co. Fast. Here's one thing that people don't consider enough and this is based on the fact that you just stated that your personal brand is you. It's not just a reflection of your work that you do. And it's super smart. Because when you have a brand you can monetize it in several different ways. But if you're only known in that one lane, it's hard to shift your current audience over to that other offering that you might have because that's not what they expect from you. But with having a brand, you also absorb a lot of attention and comments and messages. And on my end I'm experiencing that as well. And normally they're positive, but once in a while there's some random guy who's like this says the rudest thing like this is stupid and you're stupid too. And I'm like, bro, I wasn't even talking to you. Like this is clearly not meant for you. You're not my target audience and you're also very mean, right? So I actually don't want to talk to you, but I know what happens to you as well. And what I love about that is you actually made a video where you just talked about some of the negative comments you got and gave your feedback and your response to it. Do you mind sharing that with us too? Not the negative comments, but just like what gave you the idea to do so and what was the impact of making this video as well?

I feel like everyone's always like, don't feed the trolls, don't respond to them. And I'm like, I kind of feel if you respond in your own way, you take back your power. Like Leah Turner, right? She sure she doesn't ignore them and, but she definitely does respond to all the Crappy comments, and she turns them into content. And I think it is hilarious. Like, as long as you're not down in the mud, like, fighting with people in the comments, I think however you want to respond to it is completely up to you. And now, now when I get comments like that, they totally just, like, roll off my shoulders. It's not a big deal at all. Whereas, like, when I first got started on LinkedIn and people would make comments about me being a bimbo or who knows what, you know, like, all the nastiest comments you can come up with, that was very hurtful. But again, it's just like. It's just like taking feedback. It's something that you get used to over time. I still love that video. I was going to make it a series and I only did one of them, but I would love to do more.

Well, that would mean you're getting more negative comments, so hopefully you're out of material. But if it does happen again, then at least you can make the best out of it. And, yeah, I mean, on my end, when I experience it, it's almost like a challenge because I normally have more to lose than the other person. If my sponsors see me on LinkedIn, like, arguing with some dude like Kevin from Omaha or whatever, it's like, Kevin's going to go about the rest of his day, but I might lose my sponsorship. Because you never know what potential clients or partners or prospects are looking at you. And they're like, well, we liked them until we saw this. So, yeah, yeah, that's part of it. That's the issue that comes up in general with having a personal brand. But clearly there's a lot of benefits to it as well.

This is the thing for me. I do not hesitate to block people to delete comments. I don't care. I feel like there's a lot of people that are like, oh, I don't block or deleting comments is bad practice. And if it. And it's like, if you're lying about me in comments on my post, you better believe I will delete your comment and then I will block you. My block list on LinkedIn is long, very long, and I don't care because it's like, I. I don't want to put up with that all the time. Even if, you know, getting people arguing or some kind of controversy in the comments gets more eyeballs on it and gets me more reach. That's just. It's not my brand. It's not the way I want to approach it. I don't want to create controversy. I want to have thought provoking conversations with smart people who respect each other. And I'm not going to put up with any of that crap in the comments or in my DMs or anything like that. So I have no problem sticking up for myself in that way.

There's a benefit in not caring about certain stuff, right? And I'm not sure. If you read the book the Subtle Art of Not Giving an F, you probably guess what F stands for. And the benefit of what the author's saying is he's not saying, don't care about anything or everything. He's saying, just be very clear about what you do care about and then everything else can just roll off your back, right? So pretend someone on LinkedIn is like, hey, you're stupid. And I'm like, great, I don't care. I care more about my kids getting to school on time or me not being in a bad mood when I pick them up because I'm still thinking about your comment, right? So when you're very clear on what you do care about, everything else, you can kind of block out and keep it moving. And the same goes for your business. It's like you're going to have setbacks, right? You know, you're going to get a rejection from this company, you'll get disappointed by someone. And in this case, it's not that you don't care, but you have to know that, hey, I got to get over this and move forward. And that that's very pivotal as an entrepreneur because if you get stuck in that moment, right? If it's renting space in your head, it's blocking your ability to think about other creative stuff, other strategic stuff, other beneficial stuff. So when you said I don't care, I'm like, I think a lot of us need to start caring less about things that aren't important. Therefore, the things that are important, we have more time for because we have that energy for it as well.

That is so true. Like when I look at my content and the way I want people to feel when they read the content and when they follow me and when they are in the comments, I want them to feel like it's a breath of fresh air and like they are interacting with a community of people that understand them, I don't want them to feel any kind of tension or anger or anything like that. And therefore I will curate, you know, the people commenting and interacting on my stuff to continue to give that feeling that I try to convey in my content. It's the same thing in my business. Like, we just parted ways with a client recently, and it was like there was a lot of tension and misaligned expectations and frankly, like, a lack of kindness in that situation. And it's like, you have to understand what you'll put up with and what the result of it is. Right. Because I certainly won't let people beat up on my employees for money. It's not something that I have ever thought was okay. And I would rather put some of my own money into the company than watch my employees get beat up by people who are not treating the team appropriately. Right. And so it's like, I feel like when you understand what you stand for and what you'll tolerate, everything else gets so much easier because it's a very clear decision. You know, it's a yes or it's a no. And it's the same thing on LinkedIn.

Yeah. And going back to your business. That's why I encourage every entrepreneur to have a negative customer Persona. So who would you never want to work with for one reason or another? Maybe it's the industry, their personality, whatever it is. But even as the seller of your services, you should always be the buyer of the relationship. So trust your gut. And I know it's tough, especially when you're first starting out, because you just want to take on anyone who says yes to you. But that one yes can cause a lot of headaches downstream. And as a result, you can't show up as the best version of yourself for the other people that deserve it. Meaning your clients that are actually nice to you and you enjoy working with.

That is seriously so dang true. And I'll tell you, anytime I see chose to take money because we needed it, and I knew it wasn't an ideal situation, it ended up being completely not worth it. Right. Like, the relationship goes awry a few months later, and we've only earned X amount of money. Or an employee. I have had one employee, many years ago, quit because she had so much conflict with one of our clients. Well, we didn't end up keeping the client, and I had to replace the employee. And she walks away with negative feelings about working at my company. And that's. None of that is what I want. So I feel like you really have to look beyond, you know, those immediate, Immediate benef. Pros or cons, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And let's. Let's talk about something else for a minute, because this is probably the fourth or fifth time we planned on talking. And I kept on canceling because my kids got sick or I got sick and then just, you know, all the things. And unfortunately you had an issue with your dog as well, which I'm glad it's going better. But that's another unsexy part of being an entrepreneur when you have kids or other constraints that take your time. And on my end, sometimes I get a little jealous when I see other people who I perceive to have more free time than me. I'm like, well, gosh, if I had that much time to sit around and think about cool stuff all day, I'd do some more amazing work. But I can't. And again, this is me just imagining these things. But on your end, how do you structure your day as such that you can focus on your brand, which is important, your business, and then your family as well? What is that? What does that look like at a high level?

Yeah. I'll tell you, most of my friends do not have children. And. And it's very interesting as I don't think they do much more than me. Right. Like, I think they just have more free time. I don't know that they're using it to like totally like spend twice as many hours building or whatever. I think that's the dream of what we would do if we didn't have kids. But I don't know if that's totally true. Just in my personal. I think one thing I've learned, having the business and I had another business previously and the three kids and you know, like a spouse that I care a lot about and want to spend quality time with and an active social life, you know, like, it's a lot to, I hate to say balance, but it's more like integrate. I don't really, I don't hold myself to like a strict schedule. It's not. I'm not getting up at 5am and working out and da da, da, da da, you know, throughout the entire day and running myself ragged. I'll wake up at maybe 6:30 or 7 and if I have something really important that I need to get done that day, I will just turn over and start working on that immediately. I like to eat the frog and get the most important thing done before I do anything else. Like I'll be sitting at my desk in my room in my pajamas because I want to get it done and it makes me feel so much better about the rest of the day. I always get my workout in in the morning. Typically, I know if I leave it until afternoon and it's not happening and I've learned that about myself. Right. But when that happens is often fairly flexible. Like today I worked out at about 10am and that's what worked for me because I had, you know, like my few things that I wanted to get done and then I had some upcoming meetings. And it's just like, I think being flexible with yourself and giving yourself grace to do all of the things that you need to do on your timeline just makes so much more sense than trying to be, at least for me, than trying to be really strict about it. And then like when I am flexible like this, I get to spend time with my kids. You know, like if they're out there eating lunch or whatever and I'm not at a meeting, I can go and hang out with them for 15, 20 minutes, have conversations with them, see what they're up to, coordinate their play dates or whatever. Because I'm not like chaining myself to my desk constantly. Right. And then I typically at night I don't work until they go to bed. I'll often open my computer at like 8:30 or 9 and do an hour of like cleanup and prep for the next day. But I do try to be really intentional about just knowing that I don't get to spend as much time with them as some parents. Like I'm not with them all day, every day. So when I do have that time with them, I want to be really intentional about like eating with them, playing games. Although they hate to play games with me because I'm so competitive, I don't let them win, that's for sure. But I do love when they beat me. I think it's a good lesson for them to learn like how to win and how to lose and how to be, you know, gracious in both situations. But I don't know, I am a lot more flexible with myself than a lot of people are.

Yeah, my, my six year old daughter has not learned how to lose gracefully yet. So we can't even play games unless she wins. And it's like, well, I want to win too. So it's, it's not happening right now. But I mean, you make a good point in regards to being flexible and showing grace and not being busy all the time. Because if you're busy all the time, there's, there's two problems. One is you don't have time for white space. That, that strategic thinking, when you really think of cool ideas that are very creative, that if you implement them, gosh, you're gonna get more time back because the outcome is so great. And then beyond that, if you're stretched too thin, you have no bandwidth. So if some amazing opportunity just falls into your lap, you're like, look, I don't have time. You know, I haven't even been working out because I'm so busy. So you want to have that white space, that extra time, and don't be tempted to book it just because it's there. You want to block it off on your calendar and just enjoy it and just exist. And when you do that, that's when you get rewarded for who you are and not just what you do, because you can build your brand. You can be more creative and be more intentional, and it just works out better.

Yeah. I mean, when I get stretched too thin, I don't just, like, sleep less and hustle and get it done. I shut down, you know, And I'm like. And I can. I can. I tell my husband, like, I feel like an impending burnout moment or an impending, like, mini breakdown coming, and therefore, I need to shut it all down. And I don't really care what's going on. I'm going to shut it down so that I don't reach that point of, like, breaking down or burning out. So. And. And I will not sacrifice my sleep. Like, if I have a few days where I get less than seven hours, I'm like, red alert. Like, I need to go to bed early. And I'm very serious about that because I know what it takes to take care of myself so that I can show up the way that I want to every single day. And when I don't do those things, you don't even want to be around me. So I feel like we have to be more serious about taking care of ourselves before we can do for other people.

I'm glad we're. We're breaking this part down. But what I also want to do is talk about this. You know, there's some people out there listening who are just done with the unsexy stuff, right? They're. They're burning out, they're frustrated, things aren't going as well as they had planned. What advice would you give them? Who?

That's a big question. And I mean, I feel like that sometimes, too, right? Where I'm like, man, I am so done with this right now, and I just don't want to do it anymore because the pressure is so, so great sometimes, especially when, like, I have a team of people that count on me to pay them so that they can pay their bills, and they count on me to show up and help them Handle problems and coach them appropriately. And like, as a leader, you're expected to always be on your A game. It's really hard to, to be a person at work, right? Oh, God. I got teary eyed in a team meeting like a month ago and I was like, turn off the camera. Don't let, don't let them see you break. I mean, it ended up being like a really good situation where they were, oh, she's human too, right? But it, I mean, it can be very, I would say, difficult to, you know, like, show people that you are human. I think it's okay to tell people that you're not feeling great. I think, like, I go to therapy, I tell my husband anytime I'm not feeling great, I'm like, I don't know what is wrong right now, but I don't feel good. I don't feel excited, and I don't feel happy right now. And also, everything is a season. You know, like sometimes there are some seasons where I'm a freaking workhorse and I want to work 60 hours a week and I'm like, feeling amazing and I'm like, yeah, I'm crushing it. And there are some times and seasons where I hit 30 hours and I'm like, oh, I'm exhausted. You know, like, I need to go to bed. I feel like just being realistic with yourself and being truthful with the people around you and holding boundaries is extremely important. We were talking about boundaries a little bit too, you know, like holding boundaries with your kids and saying like, mommy can't play right now or mommy can't have you standing outside my office door. Because I have things that I have to get done. I don't know. I feel like everyone could be more honest with themselves and with others in these situations.

Okay, let's. Let's pivot to an extent before we let you go. We talked about how unglamorous entrepreneurship can be, and we also talked about ways to make it more manageable and just more aligned with really your. Your purpose and what you're passionate about, both inside and outside of work. But you also have a podcast. Can you tell us more about that as well?

Yeah, it's a lot of what we talked about I talk about on the podcast, so I sometimes bring on people to interview, and I do a lot of solo episodes, just about whatever's going on in my mind, honestly, like, if I have challenges that I'm working through in the business, if they're marketing challenges, sales challenges, financial challenges, hr, recruiting, staffing, whatever it may be, I talk through all of that. I talk a lot about getting started in the company and how to do it, getting started in a personal brand and how to do it. I get questions from people on LinkedIn that I answer in the podcast randomly too. So I think it's very much like a, you know, if you're in the unsexy part and there's a lot of it of growing a business, you know, you can come in here, here all of my thoughts and kind of how to get through it in the podcast.

So what's the name of that podcast?

Missed that part. The Art of Entrepreneurship.

And that's our show for today, and I'm glad we had a chance to normalize some of the setbacks and issues that come with entrepreneurship. Fortunately, Jackie provided some great guidance on how to navigate these circumstances as well. Be sure to check out her podcast the Art of Entrepreneurship, and you can learn more by visiting her website@JackieHermes.com that's J A C K I E H E r m e s.com thanks for listening and I'll catch up with you next time. Apply what you've learned on today's show. You'll find the show notes and more resources at TerryRice co. Backslash podcast. Again, that's Terryrice Co Backslash Podcast, and the best way to support this podcast is by subscribing, telling a friend, and leaving a review. Also, you can get more tips by following me on Instagram at it terryrice, or follow me on LinkedIn. This episode was produced by Josh Wilcox of Brooklyn Podcasting Studio and edited by Dan Lardy. Special thanks to my wife, Dominique, for keeping our kids relatively quiet as I recorded. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you next time.