Recovering from Rejection with Dr. Michael Gervais

Today we'll be learning from Dr. Michael Gervais. Dr. Mike is a high performance psychologist and the author of the USA Today bestseller, the First Rule of Mastery. Stop worrying about what other people think of you. He's also a friend, mentor, and the inspiration behind this podcast. The last time I spoke to you, I told you about my son passing away, my son, tj. And you were the first person outside of my immediate network to know about that. And after talking to you, I felt this weight. I actually just went like, I laid down in the. On the floor of my office for about 20 minutes. I felt this weight, and it was a combination of relief and also pressure to do something with this experience. Because you, in fact said that, hey, like, you're. You're being called on to do something with this. The second time I talked about it publicly was on stage at a conference in front of thousands of people. And I was like, all right, I'm going to do this. I'm going to lean into this fear. And it's amazing because I spoke about losing my son, and one of the attendees came up to me afterwards and said, look, I don't want to be rude, but one of my friends also lost her son, and she's actually burying him today. And his name is tj, just like your son. And I told her your story of how you got on that stage and bravely talked about it, how you want to honor his legacy. And that gave her some comfort. So I was like, this is amazing. Like, this is a sign that I was meant to do this. So I felt another weight or another pressure, but it was the pressure to move forward with this, to move forward and help other people. So what I'm doing is I'm starting a social impact project with the goal of helping people overcome setbacks, achieve peak performance, and just seize opportunities. And what I realized in looking at your book, and obviously knowing you, is one reason people don't do that is because of fear of other people's opinion. Right. We're too busy protecting, you know, pleasing, proving. And I just know that FOPO is a way of. We can remove that obstacle. It's going to unlock the ability for me to fill this mission. So that's why I'm so stoked to have you here today.

Congratulations. First on the courage to be open with your grief process. That is not easy to do. And so congratulations on that. And how are you doing in that process?

I'm doing well, because now there's a direct line between my pain and purpose and that alignment Just made everything easier. Nothing changed. I was about my past, but my perception of it and what I'm going to do going forward has.

Oh, that those two words matter a lot. Pain, purpose. Right. And so when you can sit with your pain and be connected to your suffering, then line it up with purpose. There's a power behind that beyond what I think most people would recognize. So how'd you do that work? How'd you sit with, you know, like, your pain? How did you figure that out to translate it to purpose?

I finally let myself cry.

Oh, yeah.

Because by design, I didn't cry at my father's funeral, who died a year before my son or my son's.

Yeah.

And again, it's that systematic denial of emotions that really was holding me back. And my wife is saying, you know, you have a delayed onset of grief.

Yeah, that's right.

And I was like, that's a cool. How'd you know these words?

I was like, what are you.

What have you been doing the last six years while I went over here pretending everything's okay? Yeah. So that's really what it was. And to tie it back to you, again, a lot of it was fear of other people's opinion. But what I realized is people give you opportunities because they feel connected to you, and that connection sometimes occurs through your most painful moments. So just me being open about these things has been extremely beneficial. And I owe that to you.

Oh, very cool, man.

When we have people on the show again, the goal is for them to share the lowest point of the personal or professional life that they feel comfortable sharing and how they navigated through it. So you're up.

Yeah, that's cool. I love that you go there with people. We all have suffering. We all have points in our lives that challenge us, challenge the way we think, challenge the way that we understand humanity, understand ourselves, where we fit in the world. So I've had plenty of them. One that I think maybe I'll do something different than what happened in the book. So I share one in the book that was pretty intense around my mentor, one of my mentors, not the one that most people would know for me. So I won't share that one. I'll share another one. This one was really important. I haven't talked about this before, is that there was. Maybe I talked about once. There was sports psychology. There was 10 gurus in the field when I was just getting in. Okay. And these 10, like, were the ones doing it. And then there was. They were going to get away for a weekend kind of a beer and pizza and learning kind of thing. And they said, look, we need to get the next generation. And so each one of them were going to pick one. And so it was going to be 20 people and they were going to pick like a graduate student. I didn't make the cut. Now, none of those 10 I went to school and studied from. So the 10 gurus, right? Like, I just knew them from reputation. And so then three of those professors said, wait, there's this kid Gervais that's doing some stuff. We should bring him in. So there's 21 of us. And I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. I'm telling you, Terry, like to see, to be in a profession, a science based profession and see 10 of the most dynamic science based practitioners, like talk and learn. And the other, when one was speaking, 19 people were just writing as much as they could and then they were going back and forth about how their principals weren't holding up and how they were working. And it was amazing three day experience for me. And I was. Felt like it was a really important moment in my career and I was so green, I was so wet behind the ears. Super grateful. Amazing. Okay, so then year two comes around and they're doing it in my hometown. I didn't get invited. I was the one that didn't get invited back. And so I called the main person and, and I said to him, I said, hey, I just got back from vacation. A bunch of people sent me messages. Where were you? Where were you? Like the young ones, where were you? We missed you. Like, I hope you had a good time. It was amazing. Again, like they didn't know. Yeah. And so, and then I still to this day, he's passed on. He's no longer with us. I called him and I said, so what's up? Like, what happened? He says, ah, you know, we just wanted to have some different people. But I knew that that wasn't the case because, well, maybe a couple, I don't know. And I said, I said to him, like, I was pissed. And I said I was hurt. And I said, I said, I'm incredibly disappointed to not be included. And it feels as though if I don't say this one more time, the magnitude won't land, is that they were the most influential people in the profession. And I didn't get asked. I wasn't good enough to be asked back. I did something unbecoming. I said something, I didn't say something. I don't know what happened. And so I was so Agitated and hurt and animated. When I spoke to him on the phone, I said, look, I'm really disappointed. I'm not sure what happened. And I was hoping that he would explain something. And he says, yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, Mike, I should have called you. I said, just pause. And I said, you know, I'm good. And I could feel this dragon wake up. And I know that dragon. I had so much anxiety as a kid, I ended up not knowing how to work with it that I used anger and violence as a way to express it. And so I could feel that dragon that I thought was resting. I could feel it wake up. And. And I said, fuck, I'm not putting it down, and I'm not asking this dragon to go back in the cage. And, like. And so I could feel it wake up. And I don't know if he could feel it or not, but I just said, you know what? I'm good. And he said, but I could. But that statement, I'm good, had such a bite to it and such a fire underneath of it. And I wish you. I could say it was like a purifier, a wonderful, like, benevolent. But I was so angry out of the hurt of not being included. And he said, yeah, Mike, I knew you would be. I knew. I just knew it. I knew it. I knew you'd be good. And so it just woke up the dragon. I read more research than I've ever read in my life. I doubled down. I just went. I went deep. Like, I went to this place. Like, no one will be able to ever faze me, you know, when it comes to knowing my stuff. And so I think it. In some respects, it probably almost cost me my marriage. We were married for a long time, and my wife, we're still together now. She says I can't be in this relationship anymore. You know, like, you're a good man, but, like, you are not watering this relationship. You're spending more time in your professional pursuits than your personal. So, like, it was heavy. It was unhealthy and heavy. And, you know, if she wouldn't have called me out in that way, I'm not sure how dark I would have gone, but thank God she did. And so I don't think that as I'm sharing this bit of my life here, I'm not sure if people can relate to it, but the essence is that I wasn't included. That was such a difficult feeling for me, is that I facilitated high work ethic with a bit of a bite and anger. And that work ethic was to maybe solve that thing, that I wasn't good enough, and it almost cost me my marriage. And when I say it that way, I think a lot of people can relate. So I wouldn't change it. But I got dangerously close to blowing everything.

When you're saying that, it reminds me of my experience when I first started my business. Because previously that I was working at Facebook. Working at Facebook, everything's great. Drinking way too much, get laid off, get laid off. I'm like, I'm just gonna start my own company. But during the interim, I was trying to collect unemployment, and I'm going back and forth, like, trying to figure out how to get the forms done, like, you know, this paperwork, so on, so forth. And at one point I was like, man, fuck this noise. I'm just gonna go work. Like, I don't want the, like, 400 bucks a week or whatever. I'm just gonna make my own money. And it lit a fire. But to your point, like, it was beneficial at first.

Yeah.

But then, like, the. The exhaust from using just like that dark energy was starting to eat at me. It started making me feel more anxious, more actually, more scarcity mindset, to be honest. And until I resolved that, I was going through some challenges. So you saying that is actually pulling me back to that moment.

But, yeah, I think that people ask all the time, like, how does. Is there red thread for the world's best? Is there a commonality? I'm not so sure that if, like, if people knew what I knew about what it takes to be the best in the world, I'm not so sure people would want their kids to pursue that path. And that's why I am no longer, ever. I am not interested in helping people be the best. Your best. That's cool. You know, something that's resting on a set of values and skill, you know, so both of those, you've got a value set and you've got a skill set, and you're going to pour into both of those. That's a meaningful approach to life. But the idea that we're going to, like, just try to dominate and be the best in the world, you could do it with values, no doubt. I'm much more interested in helping people be their best with values that eventually maybe, you know, they become the best.

There's a phrase, you can have anything, but you can't have everything. So to be the best in the world, you're gonna sacrifice something, and maybe the juice ain't worth the squeeze. I want to turn it around to you and Talk about fopo. Can you explain what that means?

Well, like it sounds, fear of people's opinions. I think it's one of the greatest constrictors of human potential. I think it's the thing that lies right underneath the surface, that we have a strong need to be accepted by other people. And that's biological. That goes back a million years ago, 100,000 years ago, where, you know, we've got this millions year old brain. And not that long ago, a couple hundred thousand years ago, we needed to fit in. That was a near death sentence. If we were, you know, rejected from the tribe and somebody said, hey, you're not good enough when that happens and we, you and I, we screw up, we do something and we're kicked out of the tribe. It's too much to, to gather, to fight, to forge, to protect. So it was a near death sentence. So fitting in was really important for us and our brains are very sensitive to that.

Let's tie that back to this morning, okay? Right now we're in Manhattan and I went to Starbucks. I already had enough caffeine, so I wanted to get a different kind of drink. I want to get a tea without caffeine. And are you familiar with, with ordering anxiety? Have you heard of it before?

What is it called?

Ordering anxiety?

No.

So especially here in New York, if you don't have your order ready, they're gonna let you know, like, hey man, get out of line, right? And everyone else behind you, you'll feel it, right? So I didn't want to be that guy. So instead of getting in line and then waiting to go to the register and asking a question, I just stood on the side waiting, waiting, waiting, longer, longer, longer. And then when the woman finally took my order, she was so pleasant, so polite, and I was like, all that worrying was for nothing.

I mean, that's exactly what FOPO is. It's an excessive worry that sits underneath and for some people it's paralyzing, but for most people it's not. It's just a lot of activity that takes place. And that activity is exactly what you just described. It's called ordering anxiety. That is so good. Yeah, no, that's a great example. I have to fold that in moving forward because ordering anxiety is the excessive worry about what are the others going to think about me, right? So there's a performative nature to it, but it's really about the perception that they're going to hold of you. And if you don't do it just right, the crowd turns Right. Okay, good. Yeah. So that's exactly it.

So can you do this? Can you walk us through the phases of fopo?

Sure, yeah. It's pretty simple. There's three phases, and the first phase is the bulk of the activity. So it's the anticipation phase. And so in that anticipation, it's the in to go back to your coffee or tea ordering moment. It's all of the activity that goes on prior to the actual moment where you're giving your order. So you're anticipating what other people are going to think or say or do or respond. And will they find you favorable or will they have the slightest criticism of rejection? And that is such a primal driver to fit in, to be, to belong. Belonging is safety, and our brain is operating for safety. It's optimized for. For figuring out how to survive, period. Like, that's the big prime motive. So let me give you another example, actually, of anticipation. You're in your closet and you've got an event later that night that you're going out to. And you're choosing your clothes that are available to you, but you're making a choice based on how you think somebody else will respond to what you're wearing. So you grab your T shirt because. And you say, how. How do you think Johnny or Xander or whatever will like what I'm wearing as opposed to how do I want to feel, how do I want to express? Right. Like, do I like how I fit in this or feel in this? So it's a complete. It's. The ordering is wrong. Okay. Okay. Then phase two is checking. So once you're in the environment and, like, you're having a conversation or you're ordering your tea, which is so fun, you're checking to see. You're checking to see if you're okay. You've outsourced your sense of power to the other people or the other person. And we're reading micro expressions or expressions or listening to what they say or don't say. And all of that is part of that checking in to see if I'm okay. So literally, what's so dangerous about that is you've just outsourced your sense of being okay.

I'm wondering how you feel about my micro. What's it called? What's the word? Micro.

Micro expressions.

Right. Now I'm currently concerned about how you feel about my micro expressions. So I'm experiencing FOPO while you're talking about fopo.

That's so funny. Right? Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Should I sit up more or Something like, I don't, I don't know what's, what's it. So.

Well, some of us are trained in micro expressions, some of us are not right. But we're all actually pretty good at them. So again, our brain's primary driver of survival, so scanning to figure out am I okay? And what we're like, I'll make it super simple. What we're looking for is what you just did. Like you nodded, like, uh huh, I got you. And that sends a signal like, oh yeah, I'm on the same page with you. We're good. And so that allows me to settle down, my brain can settle down. And so if you are looking confused or a little irritated or pissed off, you know, whether those are expressions or micro expressions, they're also sending signals. But, but when they bounce back, let's say you've got your frontalis muscles, which is your forehead muscles, and they're squinting and your eyes are kind of in that posture where you're really trying to figure something out. But I can sense a bit of contempt, let's say if that there's a pinging that takes place and you've now sent that signal and then it's coming back to me. But if I don't care right about like pleasing you as my primary dictum. And if my primary dictum. So let's say it's not survival and it's not now pleasing you because I have a sense of I'm okay, I feel okay in my skin. And then that information is more information about you. So if I'm a kind, gracious, purpose driven person and I'm seeing some confusion or contempt in you, I don't have to swallow it and be like, oh shit, you know, I'm not okay in his eyes. What do I have to do now to win his favor? I can say something like, oh, it looks like that was difficult for you as opposed to like having to protect me. I'm, I'm now here for you. And if I can line that up with my purpose, if you can line that up with your purpose, it's no longer a self check, a reference point to another person to see if you're actually okay. All of that is part of fopo, so anticipation checking. And then the third is responding, which we're just hinting at. So the way that you respond to the potential rejection or the acceptance is really the making of whether you have FOPO or not. And there's five main ways that we respond. We'll contort and that Is like. That is like an advantage. Like, you fully turned your back and abandoned your sense of self, right? Like, if I say, or you say, an offensive joke, and. But we're with maybe three, four other people. Or you say it, and I really want, you know, to be connected to you in some way. You hold some sort of power, whether it's a job opportunity or social status or something. And you say that, and I go, ha, ha, ha. And I've just abandoned it, like, all my first principles. So that contorting is pretty heavy. Then there's conforming, which it's not so offensive, what you said, but I'll just kind of go along with it. Okay. The third is that we'll critique other people. So when we feel like we could be on the fringe of being rejected, we'll point to somebody else. I will point to somebody else, Talk shit about them, cut them down, bring them down. I'll critique them whether they're in front of us or not. Because now that gives you, the two of us, a moment to bond over somebody else's shortcomings. So when we critique another person, it's actually. Or not always. But in this case, it's actually a way for us to be close, for you to accept me, because we're pointing the venom at someone else. So it's a sleight of hand. Those are three. The fourth is that we disconnect, and so we'll just cut the relationship off. We just don't want to engage anymore because of the fear of the. Of the potential rejection. So those. Those are four big ones. The. What is the fifth one. Oh, confront. Is that I might. I might. The anxiety is building up in such a way for me that if it's so unsettling in me, if I've got the fopo going on, it's so unsettling that I just will kind of rage on you. So the rage is, like, the most intense, but I might confront you in a way. It's like, hey, what's up with you? Like, why are you giving me that look? So now I've. I've taken my anxiety, conformed it into anger, as opposed to what would be healthy as a go, Whoa. I am way over indexed on what Terry's thinking of me. Like, Terry, like, I just got to tell you, like, inside of me, when in this conversation, I'm. I'm starting to feel a certain way, and, like, I want to check in. Like, is something I'm saying offending you? And then you would say, oh, actually, I'M glad you brought it up because. Yeah. Or you'd say no, say why? And then we explore it. What we found in some of the research for the book is that we took couples that were. It wasn't our research, but the researcher took couples that had been with each other for over 10 years and they asked them, how well do you think you know each other? Could you finish sentences of the other person? Come to find out they were not very good at it, but they were just slightly better than people that just began to know each other. So whether that we just know each other or we've been with each other for 10 years, the idea that we can finish each other's sentences is actually really difficult to do. Meaning that if you want to know what another person's thinking, you should ask. Yeah, just ask. We are not good at mind reading. We're terrible at it, actually.

I'm going to ask you a question and you can punt this one if you want.

Sure.

But one reason this show exists is to bring on high performers and talk about the challenges that they've had in their life. You're a cool dude.

Thank you.

Like, everyone listening. If you ever, like, engage with Mike, it's like you just feel like. Like you're that dude. So I don't see you rattled often. Yeah, almost ever. But there was one time I did when you're interviewing Marshall Goldsmith.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was pretty intense.

Do you want to punt?

No, that's. Yeah. No. Why would we punt? Yeah, yeah. No.

And I'll just. All for context, I'll set the stage. You're talking to Marshall Goldsmith, who's a well known coaching professional, and he was being, what I would say, antagonizing. And I was shocked at his behavior, to be honest, because I. I know people who hold him in high regard. I'll say it that way. Right. I'll let you provide any details you want about that. But what I'm really concerned about is if it made you feel differently about yourself afterwards.

Cool question. Yeah. So I had him on and I wanted to have him on because anybody that develops a category and he developed the category of executive coaching, you know, and like, if you can develop a category, you. You've pushed on the fringe, you've stayed there long enough that, you know, people like, there's something over there. Let's go, let's go see. And he did it. And so I love the explorer approach to life. And he certainly had it. So I had him on. It's a good conversation. We went on for about 20 minutes. And I would encourage people just to watch, like, let's call it the 20 minute onward mark. So a good conversation the first 20 minutes. And then I asked him, because his approach to helping people is to tell them basically what to do. And one of my first principles is completely orthogonal to that, which is like, no, I don't think advice is the way to go, because I haven't lived a day in your shoes. So my approach, working with World's Best, is to ask a lot of questions to understand where they have been successful in the past, in the. In something similar to this. What are their. What was the strategy? What was their type of thinking? What were the behaviors they did? How did they work through those emotions? My first principle is that everything you need is already inside you. And then, you know, if we're going to do some work, then my job is to help unlock that. And so I told him, I said, I think that everything another person has is already inside them. And he says, that's total bullshit. And he just went at me, and I couldn't believe it so much. So to the point where his face was purple, you know, like, if you. If you watch the YouTube version, he was animated and hot, and he thought that was the stupidest thing that anyone could ever do. And so I think for the first time on any interview, I felt like a 0 to 10, 10 being out of control, 5 being the sweet spot from an activation standpoint. You know, porridge is too cold is like a 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, and 6 is like porridge is just right. 7, 8, 9, 10. It's. It's 10 is way too hot. And that's. That's a framework that we use with elite athletes, you know, because we're looking for the 4, 5, 6. You're activated, you're switched on. You know, you're in it, but you're not rattled. You know, like a 7, 8, 9. A 9 feels like you just want to throw up, want to leave, right? And a two is like, yawn. I'm. I'm way too bored. So I'm usually in the pocket. 4, 5, and 6. And in that case, I was up at. At an 8 for sure. And I could feel like I just wanted to sit. I wanted to turn the mic off. I want to say, go yourself, dude. Like, what gives you the right to come at somebody? You know that. Because we're different to. To say that. I'm. I don't know what I'm talking about. I mean, he just went at it Like, I've never worked with the world's best, and I didn't even say anything because, like, he has, obviously. What am I supposed to say to that? You know? Right. So, you know, and, like, Like, I'm afraid to actually give advice. None of that was even close to being true. So I left the conversation to. To answer your point, I left the conversation agitated but very clear that the way that I handled myself and the way that I expressed my first principles were right on the money. And so I really liked that conversation for a lot of reasons. My. Our producers weren't sure, like, because if we should produce it or not or ship it or not, because it was so unbecoming to him. But I felt like I, I managed myself just exactly how I wanted to.

Yeah, you won that one.

Yeah. That's funny.

Yeah. No, my perception was you handle it with grace and professionalism, not in a performative way, but it's like, this is who I am still. Like, whatever you have going on is on you.

Yeah.

Good luck. God bless. But the mic's still on, and I am, you know, I'm not gonna.

It felt like he forgot. It did feel like I don't, you know, he apologized towards the end, you know, like, I mean, you wouldn't call that an apology. No. Yeah, I, I, I'm sorry.

You say dumb shit is not an apology.

I mean, you're right about that.

Like, that's.

Sorry you say dumb shit.

Like, I don't. Let's, let's be real here. Yeah, I know, but, no, you held your own.

Thank you for listening to that one.

So right now we're in Manhattan. We're in SoHo. We're actually on Broadway. A year from now, you're walking down the same street, walking down Broadway, someone bumps into you and says, Dr. Mike, I read your book. And what would you want them to say? For you to feel like this book was a success in regards to the goals that you had for it.

Oh, cool framing. I would hope they finished that. I read your book, and I'm different. So there was a little bit of a shift for them. And then they pause and they calibrate, like, what are they different about? And they say, I'm kinder, I'm a bit more loving, and I feel more free. I go, oh, yeah, cool. So that freedom comes when you can recognize that your brain is trying to keep you alive. And it's not optimized for high performance. It's not optimized for flourishing, it's not optimized for mastery. It's not optimized for just about anything other than keeping you alive. And it's such a strong programming because your great great, great, great great great great grandmother and grandfather pass this programming down to you. They figured out sabertooths and wildebeest, and they figured out the dark Ages and the. And, and, and, and so they figured out some stuff. They've navigated adversity in a really special way for us to be here. Some people have more adversity in their history than others. And so, and I, to them, I say more resilience. So they figured this thing out. And until you, you invest in your software that runs the hardware. So if the brain is the hardware, the. It doesn't quite hold up this way from a academic standpoint. But just for ease, here is if your brain is the hardware and your mind is the software, until you invest in your software and upgrade it in a meaningful way, the brain will win. And the brain's dictum is survival. Scan the world, find the dangers. Oh, you're critiquing me. That's dangerous. I need to shape shift. Because if you kick me out of the tribe, go back to, like, the primary programming, it could be a wrap here. So software that runs the hardware says, no, I'm going to work from a different set of values. I'm not going to just value survival. And so if you can, if you can square up with those and then you've invested in the right psychological skills so that you can navigate hard, emotionally challenging environments where people are, you know, squinting or critiquing, and you can stay calm, you can be connected to your, to your purpose, and you're using all of the mental skills, calm, confidence, deep focus, trust, optimism. You've trained those skills just like when you go to the gym and you're going to train whatever, agility, mobility, strength, power, so that when you're actually on the pitch doing something, you've got access to that stuff. Okay? So that's what we're working on. You get clear on what your purpose is, because right now the purpose is to fit in. That's your brain's purpose. Just be the center of the tribe. Okay? Fit in, you figure out something that is more powerful than that for you, the way that you want to guide your life. The purpose. I want to. What did you say your purpose was?

I want to help people overcome setbacks, seize opportunities, and achieve peak performance based on their definition of what that means.

Amen. So there's the. So that now when you're in an emotionally Charged environment where somebody's like, that's stupid, or I don't think you have what it takes, or, this isn't working for me and I paid you a lot of money. There's some sort of emotionally charged thing that you're able to use your mental skills to be able to stay present, to be connected, to feel your way through it, not be run over by critique or run over by emotions that are flooding you that you can stay connected to, help that person or people, because that's the purpose on how you want to live your life. That's how. This is not complicated. Know your purpose, invest in your mental skills. And there's incredible freedom on that other side of that. All of the world's greatest historical greatest. They knew their purpose. They're incredibly clear on it. And they had the ability to stay convicted when it was hard. And conviction. So if conviction is the midline, right above it is purpose, and right below it are mental skills. So the mental skills are what's allowing you to kind of swim under the water. You know, that's. That's doing all that work. And then the purpose is like that thing you're swimming towards. And so you need both. You need to have some mental skills. You need to have your purpose so that you can stay convicted in emotionally charged environments.

You talk about values just now, and I feel like your values, your morals, your ethics, they're nothing until they've been challenged. Right? You can say I'm empathetic, You can say that I'm kind. But, like, when you're walking down the streets of New York and someone asks you for directions and you're running late, what do you do? So again, going back to that Marshall Goldsmith conversation, you really showed that you're not full of shit, by the way that you responded to him.

Yeah, cool. Yeah, thank you for that. I mean, my team right afterwards, because we've got, you know, a production team that helps out for finding mastery. And they were on a text chain, so I got off of the thing and they were on the text chain, and they looked at me right away and they said, you did it. Like, that was awesome. Like, you. So I look forward to the moments of test, you know, I look forward to figuring out how to get to the messy edge. And it's all emotional. The messy, emotional edge when you're not sure if you're going to fall into a thousand pieces or you're going to just navigate through it in an okay way, you know, great way, possibly, but it's right at that edge where, like this. This could all go sideways quickly. That's where you're in a fantastic learning environment. And the further you can go and the longer you can stay in it, the more you learn. So thank you for that.

Thank you for this.

No, yeah, man. I love what you're doing. I love your approach. The way that you've designed your life is really inspiring to me, and so thank you for having me.

Well, thank you for the inspiration as well. This has been great.