What To Do When Success Feels Miserable with Jo Franco

Hey, Joe, how are you?

I'm good, Terry. I just love seeing people that look like they could be my cousins. Like it doesn't it look like we could be cousins?

We do look somewhat related. Yeah, I agree.

I love it. I'm super stoked to be on the show today. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, thanks for being here. Our friend Henry from ConvertKit has been hounding me about you recently, especially in regards to that documentary that they created about you. So that might be a good way for you to introduce yourself. So why did ConvertKit create a documentary about you and what was it about?

Yeah, I mean, so I. I've been an entrepreneur since 2012. It's 2024 now. We're coming towards the end of the year, so it's been a long time. I've had many lifetimes, many pivots. But the ConvertKit documentary specifically was about this new era in my entrepreneurship, which is what I would call like Joe Franco V2, where instead of just going from the content creation standpoint of making content for content's sake, I'm very much building a business that's scalable. And so Henry, my friend and your friend at ConvertKit, they were kind of documenting this story of what it's like to go from this first chapter of entrepreneurship, where it's content heavy and you're making content and you're hosting shows, to big pivot, new business, developing it from scratch, automations, email funnels, and then a bigger team too, because I feel like version one was a lot of just solopreneur vibes, and then V2 is more of a, I have a team, I'm managing people, it's a bigger movement. So that was the documentary. And yeah, it's really crazy because I always think about how when you document things, I love making videos. I grew up in my 20s, basically vlogging, traveling around the world. But when you document things, it's like a chapter in the book and by no means is this story over. So I'm just grateful to have a piece of the story on video, beautifully edited. Thanks to you, Henry.

Yeah. You know what's interesting? When you said, hey, when you document something, it's like a chapter in a book on my end. ConvertKit previously did a case study about me in my life and I wasn't forthcoming with all the details of my background. I didn't mention losing my son, I didn't mention battling alcoholism, I didn't mention mention battling obesity. So when the story came out, I was like, this feels phony, like this is. It's all true, but it was phony. And I went back to them, and I was like, hey, can I get another shot at this? And they're like, well, how about a really big shot at this? We're going to create a documentary about you as well. So that's why I'm glad to have a more true representation of myself out there, even though there are some moments that are very challenging, that are sensitive, so on, so forth. But I feel like, okay, if you're gonna follow me, if you're going to have any kind of respect for me, I want you to show. I wanted to show you the full story. So it felt good to get that out. And yours obviously went well because you won, like, three telly awards for it. So. So congrats on that. So I encourage everyone to check it out.

Yeah. So to your point, I want to talk about, like, the. I know that the theme of the show is to get deep and vulnerable. And one of the things that Henry and I made sure was conveyed in the story was the fact that, like, I've had this crazy journey where everything was going right on the external and on the internal. I was, like, truly fighting with what was happening, because what I was getting really successful in was keeping me away from everything and everyone that I loved because I started this travel YouTube channel, and it was with a college buddy, and we had this, you know, spunky spirit, and we were kicking down doors and taking names and doing all this crazy stuff and. And I had journal entries from the beginning of my. I mean, since I could write, but from the beginning of the entrepreneurship, specifically, and towards the end of that chapter, where I was just miserable on the inside. And so for five, six years, we're riding this crazy wave. I paid off my student debt, which was 70k. I come from an undocumented immigrant backstory. This is not the story that you hear when it comes to entrepreneurship. So I come with all the baggage of, it's not about just, like, an ego boost. This is about sacrifice. This is about making sure that 12 years of us not being able to travel, of my mom risking everything for us, that it was worthwhile. So I come from this, like, gritty background. So if that wasn't already enough, around 2017, I was in the pinnacle of the success in that chapter. And I go back to my hometown in Rio, and I'm visiting my dad and who I'm, like, trying to develop a better relationship with, and I get shot. I literally get shot in the neighborhood. My mom took us out of. And I still live with a bullet in my back. And so that was a story that Henry and I knew we needed to tell because that was a kind of a pivotal moment where you ask yourself, like, oh, my God, I didn't wake up this day knowing I was gonna be shot. Is this really how I wanna live my life? And that was the beginning of the pivot that's taken me to where I am today, which is night and day. So much happier, so much more fulfilling and aligned. But some crazy stuff had to happen to get here. I know you said you wanted to get deep, so let's rip off the band aid.

Yeah, I thought we'd have more of the one more five minute buffer here, but for more than a five minute buffer. But. But let's. Let's go. Let's. Let's get deep. Right? So what were you doing when you unfortunately got shot? And then what was it like in, like, the days and weeks following as you were recovering?

So I guess I'll start before. We should get some backstory in there. So, like, I grew up in Brazil. I was born in Rio. I didn't grow up. Let's even backtrack that. I was supposed to be raised in Brazil, in Rio, and I was born there. And then my mom, with her childhood traumas, was like, I don't want to raise my kids here because she grew up in this neighborhood where you didn't know if you were going to come home. In Brazil and in Portuguese, we have a saying. A lot of cultures have this, but in Brazil, you say this even if you're not religious. Every time someone leaves, you say, go with God, because you don't know if the person's gonna come home that day. Like, that is the culture that I was born into. And my mom refused to have her three kids. I was the youngest of three. Being raised in a society that, like, that's just how it was. Like, you could get robbed on the way to school, you could get killed because somebody wants your shoes. It could be so crazy. So she decided to take this crazy risk in 1998 and moved us to the States. And my dad stayed behind. They were divorced. So she kind of took this on as this crazy life change when she was, I believe she was 36. So she's divorced, three kids, doesn't speak English. And she was successful in Brazil. We had a good family, village kind of a vibe. But she was like, it's not enough for me to have peace of mind. I want to give my kids more. So this is where my childhood took a crazy pivot. Like, we didn't get raised like regular kids. You know, when you are the kid of an undocumented immigrant and you are undocumented, you're raised to keep a secret. You're raised to know you can't get too close to people because they could tell on you. And all the while, my mom is paying lawyers. She's trying to do everything by the books. But we can't leave. We're just waiting. We're just waiting. We're just another number in the queue. So she goes from being a teacher, a French teacher and a Portuguese teacher to cleaning houses, to cleaning offices, to being a nanny for these people. And we were the kids. We were the kids of the nannies. So that was my backstory. And then in Connecticut is where we grew up. And I was in this crazy juxtaposition of, like, I saw rich families, I saw what they lived. Like, I was cleaning their bathrooms with my mom. I saw office buildings. I was the one vacuuming on the weekends. Like, I saw what it could be. And I think that played a big role in what came next because I was able to have access to seeing, like, oh, what would it look like to be a business person? What would it look like to have my own business? Because the family my mom worked for, the father was this boss who had his own company. So I think internally I was thinking like, oh, entrepreneurship, this is something that could be great. And I saw them grow from like a two office kind of set up to a giant warehouse of offices. And this was how it was getting raised. And yes, I was cleaning the offices, but I was getting access to them nonetheless. And so growing up, I had this idea of entrepreneurship. When I finally did get the papers to go, you know, to travel and to go to school, I signed up for a private business school in Manhattan. I studied international business. And I thought I was going to be this boss lady working, you know, my way up the corporate ladder and being this diverse female CEO in a media agency, because I was fun, I was hip. And then I did seven internships. Didn't love the fact that a lot of people working there at all of these places, they didn't seem fulfilled. Like, it just. I saw the monotonous nature of it, and I was like, there's got to be more, but I don't know what it's going to be. But I knew it wasn't for me, and I was like, okay, I'm going to study abroad in Paris. Let me go see what that's about. And I tried to get an internship. I speak French fluently. Everybody declined me. So it was the first time I was around 1920, where I didn't work because I started working with my mom when I was 8, cleaning houses and stuff. Worked when I was 16, chiropractor to pharmacy. And then all of a sudden, I'm in Paris, broke, eating baguettes for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And a college buddy of mine was also there, and he loved making videos. He was like, oh, I want to be a famous travel personality. And I'm like, well, I want to be a global business woman. And we were broke, but filming was free. So we started making these cute little videos of our study abroad experience. And this eventually grew into this giant YouTube channel that was basically the catalyst to how I got to Brazil. And then I got shot. So that's the backstory of entrepreneurship. And then eventually I get shot.

All right, that's. That's a hell of a build up. And I. I want to let you continue the story, but I think it's amazing that you had this vision that was inspired by other people where you saw, like, there is a different world out there, and if I work really hard, I can make it happen. And for me, I mean, I live here in Brooklyn, and we see that all the time. We see that all the time. There'll be a brand new building with like all this sexy stuff, like all these amenities next to a place that's like, run down. And I'm like, it seems like a tease to me to an extent, but I think listening to you, there's a different perspective some people might have, like, hey, I know what this looks like, right? It's tangible. Is it a real thing and what can I do to get there? It might take years, but at least it doesn't feel like some esoteric thing that only exists in other places. So I think it's great that you took a positive from that experience as opposed to, you know, feeling less than. Cause you're like cleaning offices and all that stuff. You said, hey, what can I learn from this experience? So I think that's. That's amazing.

Yeah. And after growing up.

And then he got shot, so.

And then I got shot. And then I got shot.

No.

Well, there was so much that happened. Even if I hadn't gotten shot, I think the story was already wild. Because when you're raised in hiding, the last thing you think is like, I'm gonna be on a YouTube channel and try to make a living doing that. Like, that wasn't innate to me. I actually had to struggle, similar to what you said of, like, when you're feeling like something's fluffy and phony. And that was. That was my struggle in the first chapter, when I was gaining success. The success was from a version of me that was fun and young and, like, really dynamic. And it's a part of me, but I knew that it wasn't all of me. It wasn't the parts that I wanted to show. And as the numbers grew in the audience, I felt the weight of the responsibility of using those viewers, like, using the viewership for something good and not just to crack another joke. And not to say that there is no room in comedy. Comedy is healing. But if all I'm doing for my life's work is just, like, booty dropping in front of the Eiffel Tower, I won't feel like it's enough. So the journey was already this, like, stretching of my. Of who I'm really supposed to be, of what I'm made of and where I've come from. And I was grappling with that as the years were progressing, as the numbers were growing, and to get off of the thing that has proven to be very successful, that's very, very challenging. And so me going through the experience of getting shot was like a ripping off the band aid and giving me that time to think deeply, like, is this all there is? Or what could be better? What is more aligned?

It's interesting. One of my buddies from college, this guy, Ryan Kamenaugh, he was. He lived here in New York City. I can't remember what kind of job he had, but he got hit by. By an unlicensed taxi. And so he's like. He's in the hospital with no one to pay for his. His medical bills, was laid up for, like, six or seven months. And it gave him time to reflect on what he wants to do next in his life. And he decided to study for the bar exam and passed it. So all of a sudden, like, that. That's his path. And then he went from there to becoming a US Air Marshal, which he's still doing today. So this guy who I don't want to say was, like, drifting in his life or career and a horrible incident, right, got hit by this. This car, is laid up in the hospital. He's like, you know what? Like, what do I actually want life to look like? And now he's flying around protecting people. So I think it's. It's a. It's. It's really the crux of this show is like, hey, you got to reclaim in advance. Like, you know, things aren't always going to go well, but you can decide how, what happens next. So on your end, let's, let's continue. Let's hear what happened next.

Well, so let's see. I. I just want to stress the importance of, like, when it's bad, it's gonna be bad. And there's nothing you could do to fast forward it. You cannot press the fast forward button. You know that. I know that. And it's like my heart genuinely goes out to people who are going through something deep and dark and painful and something that they might have to go through on their own. Of course there's professional help. You could talk to somebody. But at the end of the day, this is a relationship you have with yourself, right? Like, at the end of the day, we need to figure out how to like, self soothe and understand what's going on. So during the successful years, and I'll say successful with like quotes because it was successful financially, I was making more money than I could ever imagine. I was an entrepreneur. I wasn't responding to anybody else. I had a business that was thriving with then eventually contributors that I trained on this platform that I was able to basically pass off the deals that I didn't want to do to people who could grow into their own voices and their own career. So that was all happening from 2012 until 2019. And also before the success happened. I got how many no's? Probably like a hundred NO's from different TV executives and brands that I would pitch on a daily basis who all said to me, young travel will never sell. There's no market here. No one is going to spend money advertising a channel that promotes young people traveling. And so even with the nose, I remember I was on the, the. I was in the auditorium of college graduation wearing my cap and gown, and I was about to be called up. And I had just flown to LA with like the last bit of money that I had to pitch a TV show to this network that said that they wanted young, fresh, talented shows. And they were like, wow, you're so impressive. We really love this. We're going to think about it. And then I flew back to New York because it was my graduation. And during the ceremony I get an email that said, you are so lovely and you have a great future ahead of you, but unfortunately we can't invest in the show. I cried one tear, Terry, and I'm like, enough. I'm going to stop asking People for permission to do what I want to do. And that's when the career on YouTube was full blown, like. And that was probably around 2014, when there was no more plan B. It was no more trying to get permission from people. So this grit was building, building, building. But it was all for this image and this company and this brand that I did believe in in the beginning. It's not like I didn't believe in it. Otherwise I wouldn't have pulled on many all nighters. So many all nighters. But it was an image of myself, a brand that I was outgrowing year after year that I couldn't stop. I couldn't stop because it was how I was getting my paychecks legally. There was a trademark involved, there was a business involved, there were employees. It was huge. Over 1.2 million subscribers. It was like, how do you stop this? And my business partner and I, we kept just pulling apart from each other. We were no longer really friends. It was like a mutual respect of just. We work together, but at the end of the day, we didn't really believe in the same things. When the accident happened, when I got shot, I'm not even gonna call it an accident because it really wasn't. It was like this crazy. You turn the corner and people. People are there with guns and they're going to rob whoever comes down the street next. We happen to be those people. And this was in the neighborhood my dad lives in still that my aunt and uncle live in, where I should have been raised. And my aunt and uncle were driving me down the street. So it's not like I was in the wrong place that no one knew was dangerous. It was like, no. I was with locals of this neighborhood and they had never seen something like this. When these guys were basically ready to kill or rob whoever was coming down the street, we just happened to be that car. And again, everything is perfect with quotes. And then this crazy thing happens where they shoot the car. We keep driving. I get hit in the back with heat. I didn't know what it was, but I was like, okay, it must be. I probably got shot. And at this moment when. When something like this happens to your adrenaline is fully rushing to the part that needs it in your body, and everything is in slow motion. And I just remember thinking, like, you say you're strong, now's the time to prove it. And that was it. Like, I was basically conscious the entire time. Never passed out. We pull up to a hospital, we like kind of lose them as we're driving away Pull up to the hospital, there's glass everywhere because they shot through the windows. And we all had ducked. And my aunt, uncle, and cousin pile out of the car, checking to see if they got shot. They didn't get shot, thank God. And I'm sitting there in the middle of the car, and I look to the left where my head should have been, and I just see this gaping hole of where the first bullet came in. And I am like, literally laughing like a crazy person, thinking, like, there has got to be some energetic force that protected me in this moment. And I literally felt my ancestors. It wasn't like, I'm not a religious person particularly. I'm a spirit, spiritual person where I believe in energy and everything like that. And I smiled because I was like, I'm still here. Like, I didn't die. So I'm gonna get out of this car and we're gonna live the hell out of life. I walked myself to the hospital bed. The nurses didn't believe me when I said, there's a bullet inside of me. I feel there's something in me because I walked. And they were like, trying to get a wheelchair. I refused to sit in the wheelchair because I was so desperate. I'm like, give me the hospital bed. Like, talk about gumption. I'm like, I will help myself. And then they just tell me, like, oh, you have to relax because all the doctors are on strike and they won't be here until tomorrow. So we're just gonna clean off the glass and we're gonna put you on in a diaper and you're just gonna chill here for 12 hours. And so this was my reckoning, like this moment where you're just staring up at the hospital tiles and like, for 12 hours I was like, okay, what are we gonna do? Like, what is important? Who is important? What is not working? And it's just such a crazy life moment. And basically what I came out of that with was like, I must focus my energy on things that genuinely benefit people while also making sure that it's aligned with me. And I didn't know how I was going to do it. And that was the hard part. I didn't know what that was. And I still was on this fast moving train of success. I think three weeks after I got shot, I was kayaking in the middle of Georgia for a sponsored gig with the same shoot.

Wait, can we stop for a minute? So how. Okay, so I think the audience needs to catch up too. So you obviously, unfortunately, get shot. You walk yourself essentially to the hospital bed. You're stuck there for 12 hours just staring at the ceiling, not getting proper medical care. Obviously, someone came to care of you eventually, but what happened between those three weeks? Like, what made you think? Or what gave you the drive to continue working just three weeks afterwards? That's where I'm.

Well, it was sooner. It was a week after I was already filming a video. There's a video on YouTube that's got millions and millions of views where I basically tell the audience, because we had been posting videos three times a week, so I needed to give this audience an explanation. And again with quotes, because when you're working as a content creator and you have a giant audience, you owe them an explanation. That's how it feels. And so this was the kind of pressure that made me be like, well, even though I don't feel like posting, I must share a video. I must talk about this. And not only in English. I have to do this in Portuguese, too, because the Brazilian audience is going to want it in Portuguese. So I literally filmed a video five days after I got shot. I was on the plane five days after I got shot. So I think the video came seven days after I got shot. And also when the doctors eventually came, they looked at the tests and they were like, yeah, well, it looks like the bullets lodged so close to your spine that it's too dangerous for us to take it out. But it's not affecting any vital organs, so we're going to leave it in you. You're all. You're all set. You can go now. So I was released 13, 14 hours after it happened. Just walking around with a piece of gauze on my back, knowing that there was a bullet forming, like, scar tissue around my body, was, like, welcoming this crazy foreign object. So a week after I filmed the video explaining that I wouldn't be online, like, basically explaining, hey, guys, I'm gonna take a bit of a break, but when the deals come, you take them. And it was a business partnership. It wasn't like I could say, yeah, we're gonna turn this off, because I need some time to, like, reflect about my life. So it wasn't. It wasn't anything. I don't know. Like, even looking back now, I feel like that is the. The golden handcuff syndrome. Like, when you build something that's successful and you've built it from scratch and you know what it is to not have anything. And there you are, you have everything. You don't want to slap away the hand that feeds you. And so even when you're in a dark place sometimes we make bad decisions and we do things that we shouldn't be doing because we feel like we owe it to everybody who allowed us to create these amazing lives for ourselves. So, yes, I. I didn't stop. I kept going. And we all know that if you keep going, eventually it'll all bubble to the surface and it needs to come out at some point.

Yeah. And so when you mentioned earlier about getting that rejection during your graduation and setting one tier and then moving forward, and then you just mentioned getting shot, processing it, and then moving forward, and I think. And you also mentioned, hey, like, don't deny these emotions, right? Like, you can't skip the part where you're going through it. And this guy Tripp Lanier, who was on the show previously said, it's not. I'll try to say it correctly, that it's a systematic denial of emotions that causes stress and anxiety, not the actual event. So you're. You're processing these things and you're moving forward. But for me, it's sometimes hard to move forward with things like a brand deal or something when I know internally something's going on. So what was that like for you to show up on camera? What was your disposition like? Were you smiling, like your normal, cheerful self? Or, like, what did that feel like to have to be that character when you had so much stuff going on internally? Because I think a lot of people listening right now can relate to that, where you're suffering internally, but you still have to show up for that sales call or that meeting or that whatever. So what was going through your mind? I'm curious to know.

I think we so, so backtracking. I had always kept a journal. I had always kept a journal before, during, after, till today. And I honestly can tell you that during those darkest, darkest moments, and I have these journal entries still, I was pouring my heart out on paper and pen. It was like there was no other way because I was just so filled with confusion. Like, I wrote an entry to the guys who shot me, who I don't even know their identities. I didn't see their faces. They were with masks. Right. Like, I wrote a letter to my past self. I wrote a letter to my future self. I wrote a letter. I just wrote a bunch of stuff on paper. So I was writing intensely. I think I finished a journal in record time. During that chapter, I spoke to friends and family. I. I never saw a therapist. But then later I did. I did. But it wasn't even for that. I actually genuinely think that I could. I wrote my way through it. I wrote my way through the fact that, like, I have these feelings. I'm not ignoring them. I'm aware that they're there. And I knew strategically that I needed to find a solution to get out of this, but it would be something that I couldn't do immediately. Like, I was aware that this was a long thing, that I had grown. Like, this wasn't something that wasn't success overnight. I had worked for seven plus years on this vision. So if I wanted to pivot, it wasn't like canceling a brand deal wasn't going to be enough. It needed to be like an actual exit plan. Not to say that I shouldn't have canceled the thing. I think I extended it for like two weeks or something. I bought myself more time. But in the journaling of it all, I was aware that I had these feelings. And it wasn't just about the incident. It was about the bigger picture of my life. It was about the fact that I was missing birthdays of family members. It was the fact that I had a nephew that was born, that I was having nightmares that he was a baby with a beard and didn't know who I was because I was always away. So it was structural that I knew. Okay, now I'm aware that I need to make a big, big change. And I'm committed to making this change, even if it's going to take a long time. And that's the process that I was on for two years of. How am I going to make this change? When is enough enough? And how will I rip apart this brand that has gotten me very successful with all of these people watching, thinking they know what's going on, when I know and my old business partner knew that it was not the case.

I don't know why more people don't journal, because I recently started the practice. It's been amazing, but a lot of high performers that I know, especially the ones that come on the show, they're all journaling. And it forces you to have a conversation with yourself to think about, hey, what do I really want? What's going on, so and so forth. And I love the fact that you wrote a letter to your future self. And I think more of us need to do that, too, because I'm going to do that after the show, actually write a letter to my future self saying, hey, man, all, like, the shit you got, you went through, like, in, like, you know, 2020 XYZ was worth it, because here we are now. And I think just Framing the narrative that way is so much more powerful as opposed to saying, you know, woe is me. Like, you know, I'm losing direction. Xyz. So I, I, I don't know why more people don't follow common best practices, but I'm glad you're here to highlight why we should.

Yeah. And it was something that kept my sanity all those years. I feel like when I was growing up in hiding and with a sister and brother that were older and didn't really care about my crushes, and I needed to get those emotions out, right? And so I started journaling. My first journal was a black page journal that my sister got me with, like, a little lock on it. It's called, like, the Key to Me. And the whole idea was my sister was tired of hearing me talk about my feelings. She's like, journal about it. So if anything, I have to thank my older sister for this gift. But the thing is, unlike most kids, I kept it up. And I felt like the journal was a way for me to preserve everything that I didn't think would happen again. So it wasn't just a place to talk about, like, woe is me. This is terrible. I remember thinking, I don't like reading back those entries that are so negative. So I not only wrote, but I would reread what I wrote just out of curiosity, like, oh, what did I write about last month? And I started noticing that if I wrote about negative things, it was unenjoyable for me to read it back. So then I started thinking, well, what if I write about the positives? What if I think about, like, the people that I'm grateful for or the activities that have been interesting, or the three tiny things today that made me smile, even if I've had a crappy day. And so that happened maybe when I was 15. And ever since then, I've looked at journaling as this practice of emotional and mental hygiene. And as an entrepreneur, very much important to align how we actually feel with the strategic things that we're doing. Because as an entrepreneur, you've probably noticed this. A lot of people will give you advice. A lot of especially entrepreneur friends will give you ideas like, oh, why don't you turn that into a conference? Why don't you turn that into this business? You, why don't you sell merch? These are all amazing ideas. They're great, but it doesn't mean that they might be the connected ideas for you. So through journaling, especially because I was always passionate about building things that I had never seen before. So it was like this creative canvas for me to understand what I really liked, what I really wanted. And I didn't even know that this was so important to me. Terri. I had always done this. Like, this was just a habit I did. I didn't know it was so important until 2019, when everything in my life imploded. Okay, everything imploded. So I got shot in 2017, and 2019, it imploded. But by my choice, I fired my Hollywood agent.

I was gonna say, like, how did. How was. How was 2019 worse than getting shot in 2017? So I'm curious to hear the rest of the story.

2017 was the moment. It was like the catalyst. Like in every great story, there's an inciting incident. And then the hero needs to decide, what do you take of this? If you read any book, if you watch any movie of superheroes, there's always like an inciting incident. And it's usually a bad thing. It's usually like something that the. The hero doesn't know how to control, or they don't know what to do with this, or it's something completely out of their hands. And then a hero is somebody that can take that inciting incident and grow from it and learn from it. And I didn't know any of this either at the time. Now I study storytelling so I could be like, wow. Getting shot was not the story. Getting shot was the inciting incident. Everything that came next was actually the story. And usually in a hero's journey, there's the moment where, you know, this thing happens to them and then they recover and they think they're good, and then, like, spirits are high. And then actually that wasn't even the hardest part. And then something knocks them down even worse than when they actually got the inciting incident. And then them crawling out of that hole is what happens next. So 2019 was that moment for me where a lot of things have had happened. I was still with my old business partner at this point. I was making my own videos on the YouTube channel. We had gained a bunch of success. We were making tons of money. It was great on the outside. I had a team of contributors that I loved, and I really wanted to grow a business bigger than me. And it was happening, but there was always friction with my old business partner. And we were 50 50. And by the way, I had gotten this tip from an entrepreneur years prior. He was the CEO of this multi million dollar company. And he was like, no matter what you do, never go 50, 50. And I thought I knew Best because I was this young college entrepreneur. And he said, like, hey, if you don't have a tiebreaker, if somebody disagrees, you will lose. I swear, that was the foreshadowing, that little nugget that was like the poison that eventually found its way to the top. By 2019, we were disagreeing on everything. And so nothing was able to happen without, like, borderline screening matches, which is just not how you want to live in a business relationship. So at the same time, I was pitching a show, and it was a show for both of us. It was me and my old business partner. And I told myself, I'm like, this is the last hurrah. I will go into this pitch. I will give it my all. I'll do the song and dance that we've perfected over the years. And I really do believe in the show, so if it sells, I'll be okay. And I pitched this to Netflix, and that was our dream. The dream was literally like, we are gonna sell the show to Netflix. When the story started, I was in my graduation. I cried the tear. When the story ended, I was still trying to pitch a show. So you have a seven year process of trying to pitch a TV show. Go to the offices. My manager's there, my agent's there. The rep there at Netflix was, like, so enamored, asking all these questions. And I'm drilling back. I'm like, yeah, I could have multiple seasons. Here's what we're thinking, here's the budget, blah, blah, blah. I leave that pitch thinking like, that was the last hurrah for me on this, on this partnership. And if we get this, I'll see it through. We end up not getting it, and I get a call from my manager saying, netflix thinks you're great, but they're not going to pass with the show. And I'm like, okay, fine, Good. I think this is time. It's time told my old business partner, hey, let's break this up. We need to stop this, because it's not working anymore. So we announced on our channel that we would no longer be doing anything on the channel. That, like, maybe one day we'd have kind of a reunion tour or something. And at the same time, a Netflix executive reached out to audition for another show, and they auditioned both me and my partner as a duo. And I said, I don't really want to lock myself into this brand that I don't feel aligned to anymore, but who am I to turn down a Netflix job? So we auditioned three times as a duo, and by the fourth time I get a call and it's like, joe, we just want you to continue to the chemistry test. So it was this, like, crazy record scratch of, wait a minute. I've been working on this joint company and joint brand in this duo for seven years, and now Netflix just wants me to audition. I don't even know if I'll get the job. But this is a big sign from the universe that, like, what I was feeling internally, that this is not it anymore, that they. They see it too. Like there's something here that they see it too. And at the same time, I was dating this guy, and he supported me with quotation marks. But every time something successful would happen in my life, I felt like he was just not happy, actually. And the night that I went to the audition, I came back home and he was not in a good mood. And I'm like, I don't really need this. And so I broke up with him. So in the same week, I fired my agents because they didn't even believe in me. I broke up with my ex boyfriend, and I broke up with my old business partner and I went to New Zealand. So that is kind of where I had my spiritual awakening of like, oh, what has always been the constant. None of this. It's been journaling.

I love this story for so many reasons. And I think we all reach a point or hopefully reach a point where what got us here won't get us there. Like, you heard of the book title before, in, like, even former relationships, they need to end, whether they're, you know, it's a bitter end or like a hey, you know, like, this ain't working end. And we can't move forward with that baggage from the past. Like, some people, some people in our life for seasons, this is how it goes, right? No matter how good it is. Like, once you evolve, sometimes you can't move forward without that. And. And I think you're a perfect example of how you can do so in a way that's meaningful. And also just thinking more about, like, how you're living your life by design now. Whereas before it seemed like it was like, you know, drifting and then driven, now you're like, no, this is by design. So what I'd love to hear more about is, like, what does V2 look like for Joe?

Yeah, so V2, great, great beginning. I was in New Zealand on a trip. I should have been with my ex boyfriend, but I decided that I was still going, but I was doing my own thing, so I booked a yoga retreat. I Had never heard of it. Quick Google search in Wellington, New Zealand, to spend the New Year's by myself on the other side of the world. Took three days to get there. And I'm in this yoga retreat and journaling was optional. But in that four day period, I filled up, I think 150 pages. Because I just kept thinking about all of these thoughts and these ideas and. And I'm like, looking for purpose. Like I'm at a point where I'm like, okay, if I just cut all of this from the past. I don't know if I have the Netflix show yet, by the way. I went to the audition and I didn't hear back. And I fly to New Zealand just like, I need this. I had seen my grandma too. I saw my grandma and my grandma was always this, like, fountain of wisdom and she would just say the thing I needed to hear. And in the trip before New Zealand, I was in Brazil and I'm having Cafe Zinu, like a little coffee with her and I just like, ask her these questions and she starts to cry. I had a stoic grandma. She was very, very like a strict grandma. Had an amazing relationship with her. We were friends, but I had never seen her cry. And I asked her these questions and she starts crying tears of like, recognition of me asking these deep questions and her coming to this, like, realization that she wasn't pissed at my grandpa. She was actually afraid for the day that maybe she wouldn't have him around anymore. And in the middle of her crying, she looks to me with these like, big owl eyes and she's like, you need to help people. You're on this earth to help people. And I'm like, like just is sobbing because I'm like, well, clearly it's not going to be with silly travel videos. It's got to be a different way. So that day I started looking up, like, is it life coaching? Do I become a psychologist? Like, what is it? Is it therapy? What is it? And I didn't have an answer. So that was the prelude to New Zealand. I get to New Zealand. I've had this conversation on repeat in my mind with my grandma. And I'm journaling, journaling, journaling. And then I remember I did this chart. There was an exercise that was like, what has taken energy away from you and what has always given energy to you? And it was writing for me. It was like, very clearly, writing has always given me energy. All the other stuff has taken it away. Family has given me energy. Deep friendships have given me energy. Traveling not to see the sights or take pictures, but to connect with people. Language learning has always given me energy because it's another tool to deepen the connection. So I have these. It's an ingredients list. I had a shopping list of like, okay, whatever I do must have these things. How the heck am I going to do that? I have no idea, because these don't make any sense. I love journaling and writing. So language learning, traveling for deep connections. I do love storytelling. What do I do with all of this? I leave New Zealand feeling good, not completely sure. Get back, I get the Netflix show. And this is two seasons of the world's most amazing Vacation rentals, which was crazy because hundreds of people auditioned and I ended up booking it as. And it felt like it was the right thing. It was like I'd worked on camera all these years. I really enjoyed presenting. It was not just like YouTubing. It was. It was something different. You had to study, you had to learn about things, you had to create interesting hooks. So we start filming. But I kept this thought in my mind of like journaling, language learning, travel for connections. And the show didn't give me those things. It really didn't. But it did give me a lot of time to journal some more. Because when you're shooting a TV show, it's a lot of hurry up and wait. And here I was working 6 days a week, 14 hour days, and the one thing I always found time for was journaling. And even my co hosts and people on set, they were like, why are you always writing? Like, what are you always writing? And I'm like, it's just my thing. It's always been my thing. And here I am, stripped of much of my independence because I'm just like a cog in this big production and yet I never not write. And so it was another sign of like, damn, this is not going away. Like, this is just a lens through which I see the world. And it was helping me process a lot of this stuff too. Because when you're on set and you're in a show and you've been a creator, you lose a lot of your creative freedom. You can't just, like on a whim, decide a scene and shoot it. It's just not how it works. And for me, being who I am, it was not great because I'm such an activator. Like, I want to get in on the action and I couldn't. Covid then hits. So I'm filming this global travel show and then Covid hits and. And I Go home, they evacuate us. I have 30 minutes to decide where am I going. Because Tomorrow morning at 5am, everybody's getting flown out of Dr. And at this point, we've gone to Bali, Japan, Finland, the Bahamas, and we were in the Dominican Republic. My stuff was in la. My house, or I didn't have a house yet. My family was in Connecticut. My mom didn't even have a house. So I went to Connecticut, where I grew up, stayed with my mom's friend, shared a bed with my mom, and we're just waiting for production to come back. I have no YouTube channel, maybe no guarantee of a show. What do I do? I journal. But I take pictures of my journal and I post it on Instagram. Raw, vulnerable entries. Somebody's like, joe, start a journaling challenge. So I was like, sure thing. Tomorrow morning we start. And I started this journaling challenge on my Instagram stories completely for free, where I would post a deep prompt, they would send me their entries, I would reshare it the next day. I would share my entry to the day before and the next day's prompt. This lasted for 90 days. And this was all in between the production, you know, like the. The hiatus around day 70. I was like, would people want to journal together in a room on zoom code of the website, Put together a little membership payment platform, put up a benefits list. You get one live journaling session a month. That was the initial offering, had seven members. And then I get these people. A girl from Finland, a girl from Australia, a girl from the US People from all over the world. And I'm like, okay, guys, we're gonna do some live journaling. I had never seen this be done. And I just put together a series of prompts, played music. So we were writing together, put them in breakout groups to discuss the prompts. And I was so energized that I'm like, oh, my God, I need this more in my life. Like, I have never experienced something so damn cool where you get the collective consciousness of the world. So that's when my company, which is the Next Chapter Joe Club, was born.

That's amazing how this gift of journaling, which has benefited your whole life, turned into almost a calling to give other people the same tool, to do so, and at a time when we really needed it, you know, back in 2020. But still to this day, clearly it's beneficial. So I think it's cool how you let your calling arrive to you as opposed to searching for it. And I think sometimes we do need to get away from the World, whether it's New Zealand or just, you know, taking a break in our day to focus on really what lights us up. And then from there, how can we share this gift with the world? So it's an amazing testament of just being very present and meaningful and how you move forward.

Yeah. And you know, I think whether you're in New Zealand, of course that was a luxury that I could go to New Zealand. And this is coming from a girl who couldn't travel for 12 years, you know. And like, genuinely, I know what it is to not be able to travel for financial reasons or documentation reasons or life reasons. But I think the journaling always connected me to myself in a deeper way than any conversation that I've ever had with a friend has. Than any conversation that I've ever had with a friend has. It's, it's been this like home base for me. And the, the amazing thing about journaling is that it's a place to edit, it's a place to revise. So just because you write it down doesn't mean that it's permanent. And I always write with erasable pen because, yes, that's a thing, but it's because maybe I have some revisions. And so this process of analyzing, like what makes me happy, what do I really want, that's going to change every chapter. Today I'm a, you know, I have a boyfriend, I live with him. We're in partnership. I would have never imagined that I was living a life with a partner. You asked Joe from five years ago. She would have never imagined that I was in Belgium. I moved to Belgium. I have a freaking entrepreneurship visa. I'm establishing a company here. I wouldn't have known that, but I did start thinking about partnership as something important. I didn't know it was possible, but it was like this editing, this editing, it's like, oh, maybe I don't want to date people that are emotionally unavailable. Oh, maybe I only want to hire people that have an attitude that I feel like, you know, they're self starters. So every single entry is a chance for you to revise and edit and get closer to whatever is meaningful to you. But life does change what matters to you. That's just how life works. Like, sure, I would have loved to have prevented the heartache when I was in my 20s, but I couldn't have even if I tried. Like, and I wouldn't want to because it was part of the fun. And when I first started this young travel show, what I did want was to see the world. I wanted to finally see what was out there, because I was hiding all the time. You know, I was like, wow, I want to learn languages. I want to see what's out there. I want to prove to myself I can do it and that it's not just rich people that can travel. Like, I, too, can do this. So it was important to me at the time, but then I outgrew the vision. And I think that is the greatest lesson that I've learned in this entire journey. And I'm sure that it will continue to evolve, that what matters to you today might not matter you as much tomorrow, and that's okay. But you do need to take inventory of what it is so that you could take actions that are aligned with what is becoming important to you. Otherwise, you find yourself in golden handcuffs or just in a life that you don't recognize anymore because it's no longer aligned.

Joe, this has been fantastic, and I can't think of a better way to end things here. But before we do, what's the best way for people to continue learning about your journey and learning from you as well?

So I've loved this chat. I'm big on, like, use the grit, and it's gonna be tough. It's gonna be terrible. And even today, I was complaining about, like, how annoying it is to have two businesses and blah, blah, blah. And my mom is like, well, you wanted an incumbent, like, an unconventional life. Like, you wanted to do something different. So that's, I think, the. The big takeaway. We are always doing live journaling sessions over at Joe Club so you could visit JoeClub World. That's J O C Club World. We have sessions to plan your month. We have sessions to think about deep things. I host retreats that are some of my favorite experiences because I can bring in the travel and the language with the journaling. And you can follow me on Instagram @Jo Franco and send me a DM. I read all of them.

Awesome, Joe. Thank you. And it's funny, as this interview's gone on and I'm looking at you, I'm like, you know what? We do look related. So everyone please go to our Instagram and compare the two, because love to hear your thoughts as well. But, Joe, thanks for this. I appreciate it.

I love it, Terry, thank you so much.