Ep 20: Struggling After Several Failed Consultant Interviews? Do This Before You Apply Again

Okay. Welcome back to the Ace Your Consultant Interview podcast. I'm here with Becky as always, and we're looking at some of the guidance and advice that will help you prep for your consultant interview. We're going to start this week with a question of the week from one of our academy students. So what question have we got, Becky, this week?

Yeah, the question this week is, I've been unsuccessful in my last 4 interviews. It feels like I'll never get a job. Can I turn it around?

Oh boy. We see this quite frequently when people come into the Academy. They've had previous terrible experience and it really, yeah, it's really rough, isn't it? Because it knocks your confidence. You just, you start to believe that you're a terrible interviewee and you're never going to do it. this is you stuck forever, or you're going to be unemployed, it can be very hard to kind of get your mindset turned around. What do you normally— when we get students come in who've had that previous experience, Becky, what do you normally advise them?

I think you're right. It's really important to recognise that you can, you know, you can turn this around. You've got to really work hard not to get into this issue around telling yourself the story that you are a terrible interviewee. Because actually, you know, hardly anyone is just a naturally great interviewee. People can do it because they work at it, just as you've had to work at any other skill that you've had to do in your career. Um, so actually, I think what, what we really try to get people to do is to draw a bit of a line Try not to get bitter and twisted about this, and let's think about how to move forwards. So I think the things that I try to get them to focus on is if they've had some feedback from their previous interviews, let's have a look at that and work out what it actually means. If they haven't had specific feedback, then I would urge them to go and ask for it. And you know, you just say to somebody on the panel, um, I'm really, you know, I was, I was really disappointed not to get this job. Um, I'm working towards my next interview, and I would really appreciate it if you could give me some specific feedback on what you needed from me. And if you could do that question by question, I'd be really grateful. So ask specifically for what you want. I think that's the first thing to say.

I think so, because, yeah, and you can even say, look, this is my 4th interview, and I've been unsuccessful in them all. I'm working really hard, but it's obviously not translating on the day. And could you please— because the easiest thing for them to say is, oh, no, I don't have time, or just ignore you or whatever, which is what often happens. And so you never get that feedback. Whereas actually, if you are open and just say, look, I'm struggling here, Anything, if you can tell me some honest feedback, it will make a difference. I think most people would then be able to find the time to meet up with you.

Yeah, I think that's really key. And then I think, you know, look for themes in that feedback. Often there's particular stuff that people are struggling with. So it might be that, you know, you're not great at answering questions that demonstrate senior-level thinking. You know, maybe you're, you know, really great at the kind of communication-type stuff. You know, you're great at describing describing your experience, but you're not great at demonstrating that you're ready to think at consultant level. So, you know, maybe if you get a kind of governance question or a risk question or something about, you know, developing the team, you're just not demonstrating that you can think as a consultant. Maybe you're still showing that you're thinking as a registrar. So really look for those themes and just try to think about what you could develop in your answers. It's probably not about getting more experience, doing another QIP, doing another audit. It won't be about that. It would just be about making the most of your experience, learning how to describe that, and then translating it.

Yeah, and just thinking back to kind of what you were saying at the beginning where you were talking about the ways— there's kind of different ways people can take the rejection. One is feeling very sorry for yourself, which is totally understandable, and just thinking, this is it, I'm terrible, I'm never gonna be good at this. There's also the sort of, the system is rigged against me kind of view, which is, they were never gonna give me the job, this was a fix, it's never gonna happen, it's always predetermined. And we know that that's not the case. I'm not saying it never happens, but we know, 'cause we see it all the time, when the non-favorite gets the job because they've prepped better, they give a better interview on the day. So the whole process being rigged theory is this kind of self-protective thing, 'cause it makes you feel better. Like, there was nothing I could have done, it was out of my hands. But actually, if you can take a step back and genuinely reflect and genuinely think, okay, what can I do differently next time? That is going to be the thing that helps you, 'cause otherwise you're just doing the same thing again and again and again and again, and it's not working for you, so you need to change something. But it can definitely be turned around. We've had people who've had 6, 7 previous failed interviews before they joined the Academy, and they've turned it around. It's not like you— just like you say, it's not an innate skill. It's something that you learn. You will learn, you'll practice, you'll get better at it, and you will definitely be able to turn it around. Okay, we're going to go on to look at our golden example of the week. This is an example that one of our students have given us. I think we've got a mistake example this week. Is that right? Do you want to tell us what we've got this week?

Yeah, okay. So this student said, I saw a pre-verbal child for a Section 47 medical, and I also organised a skeletal survey for them. The 9-month-old brother was also referred to the hospital for a sibling medical because of his age. We discussed that if the Skeletal survey for the first child showed any fractures, the brother would also need a skeletal survey. And then, when I was on nights, I saw an email to myself and my supervising consultant to say that there was a fracture. So I decided to order the skeletal survey for the brother. I was just trying to be organised and proactive.

Mm-hmm.

And then I was emailed back the next day by my consultant to say that I needed to cancel the skeletal survey, as it was a decision for the consultant that had seeing the child to make, and the results for the other child would need to be explained to the mum before we organise this. So this is an example of a mistake.

Well, there's a lot of information there. There's a lot in there. I think that's the first thing to say. Well, I think that there's 2, I think, significant things that would put me off saying this is a good example. The first is, the amount of detail here. It's too complicated. It takes, I don't know, it's going to take a minute, a minute and a half of your answer to actually get to the point where there's a mistake. And even so, it's still quite challenging to follow. Not really because the technical details, it's just like a really lengthy, involved explanation.

Mm-hmm.

And normally what, what you should be doing is, is 30 seconds or less to get to the mistake. Simple story. You ordered, because essentially they ordered a skeletal survey on a sibling. without checking with the consultant and without speaking to the family. So that's the mistake. And really, you could explain that in a couple of sentences. So you could cut it down. However, the second thing that I think is not great about this mistake is that it involves you showing how junior you are. Because the problem is you didn't ask a consultant.

Mm-hmm.

And in the end, you're going for a consultant interview, you're going for a senior role. The whole point of the interview is showing that you can do senior-level thinking. And the whole point of this example is showing that actually you shouldn't have been because you were too junior and you needed to check with someone and you didn't know who to check with. So, I think it just flags up their junior-ness, which isn't really what you want to do in the interview. So, for these reasons, I'd probably say it's not an ideal example. What do you— anything else that you think about this?

I completely agree. I think the other thing is I don't particularly think that we want to be telling the panel that we've made a mistake about a safeguarding issue.

Yeah, that's true.

And I just, just think it's not the look we're going for in what is presumably a paediatric interview, um, because I think, you know, we, we just—

safeguarding is important.

Safeguarding is quite important. Safeguarding, you're right. It's a whole thing for us. And yeah, I just don't think you should go near those kind of mistakes. I think there's a couple of no-go areas with mistakes, and I think safeguarding is one of those. And I think also when we, you know, if we're talking about mistake communication mistakes and conflict mistakes and things around people who've, you know, who are mentally unwell and therefore greatly distressed or bereaved, Those are also areas that are a bit no-go for these kind of examples.

So back to the drawing board.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a no from us.

Okay, next up we've got an interview question of the week. This is just a regular question that might be asked in your interview, and our question this week is, what makes a good leader? How do you feel about this question?

I like it. I think it's a nice consultant-level question, and it should be something that you can answer pretty easily if you've done a bit of prep. And I think it's a nice opportunity for people to show off some of their unique selling points because you've probably got a project or of some description in your repertoire that shows that you are a good leader. And that you're somebody who can direct a team to achieve a good outcome. So, I like it.

And I think it's the difference between saying, I know what makes a good leader because I've been on a leadership course, versus, I know what makes a good leader because I've led this QIP, or I've led this change project, and these are the traits. So, actually, you could take the traits of a— 3 traits of a good leader, whatever it is, collaborative, shared vision, listens to everyone, whatever, and then show how these, how you applied these in your unique selling point in the project that you led. And so that's a good way of answering the question, but also integrating and getting to showcase a bit of your strengths and what you do.

Yeah, I think, I think that's exactly right. And I, I also like people to use a little bit of leadership language in this question. So I like them to talk about, you know, a particular leadership style, I think it's good to put, you know, to kind of touch on a little bit of sort of theory around this. You don't have to, you know, give them the whole— we don't need a whole chapter and verse on, you know, leadership theory. But, you know, maybe, you know, overall my leadership style is that of compassionate leadership, or mostly I'm a transformative leader. Um, an example of that is X, but an example, you know, but I can also use other leadership strategies when, when need arises. For example, you know, when I'm directing a trauma call or whatever it might be. And so I, I think it's nice because you've got a really nice opportunity to, to demonstrate some of your great skills and outcomes whilst also showing them that you can think at that senior level and that you understand what a leader is.

Yeah. How about, what do you reckon about using an example of some when you've seen good leadership? that's from someone else? Because I think you— it would showcase a bit of your experience, but also maybe it's not the best use of your time because you maybe are better to share your own leadership examples. I don't know what you think.

I prefer it if, if they can showcase their own leadership examples. I think if you're absolutely out of push, you could maybe give an example, but maybe then say, you know, I observed this great leadership, I was inspired by that, and then I formulated that and I do X as a result. I think that that's probably a better way to approach it. Um, the— I think the other thing that people also often do here is show an example of clinical leadership. So they talk about, you know, how they're the trauma team leader. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I think this is a good example to show senior-level thinking, which involves essentially change and service improvement rather than being good clinician, because you are, I'm sure you are a good clinician, you're signed off, you're ready for your consultant interview. So, you don't need to show that you can lead a complex case discussion or lead, I don't know, whatever, some clinical case that you think is consultant-led or should be consultant-led. So, it's very common for final year trainees to pick clinical examples when they think of leadership.

Mm-hmm.

But remember, senior level is service change, is service improvement, is all of the challenges that go with embedding change and dealing with the conflict around change. So I think, yeah, it would be a lot stronger to bring in one of your non-clinical projects, but bring in leadership styles and how you embodied leadership in that to make it a success. Because then you can say, this was successful, I improved the rates of whatever, from 20% to 48% using these skills. And I think that will come across much more, as much more impressive and much more senior level to the panel.

Yeah, I think that's much more powerful.

I think we see that question, or a version of that question, come up reasonably commonly.

Yeah, I think it's pretty common. What makes a good leader? Tell us about a time you led a team.

Yeah.

you know, something about maybe challenges in leadership, that type of thing. But I think going into the interview, you should be able to make some sensible comments about what kind of leader you are.

Yeah.

Um, this is— it also often comes up as, how does it feel to be led by you?

Ah, yes, that's another great one.

That, that, that's the chestnut there. Um, so I think, you know, be able to articulate Who you are as a leader, how you lead things. What— how does it feel to be led by you? What's an example of a time when you led well?

Last up, we've got our tip and trick of the week. This week we are looking at the tip and trick of how to negotiate flexible working. So, lots of people want to not do their consultant job full-time. What is the best way to approach this? When should they do it and how should they do it?

I think the first thing to say is, absolutely do not do this at the end of your interview when they say, have you got any questions for us?

Yep.

And then you come back and say, well, actually, what I'd really like to do is work, um, you know, 3 days a week, ideally like Tuesday to Thursday, and probably like 9 till 2. Um, obviously I'm exaggerating, but what I'm saying is, at the end of your interview, you just hold your head up high, having smashed your interview, and you walk out the door. And then I would say that negotiation will probably come later when they offer you the job.

Yeah.

I guess if it's a place that you know and you've had some really nice informal discussions at the beginning, and it seems appropriate to to discuss potential working patterns ahead of the interview, then you might go there. But I would say tread carefully with this negotiation because you don't want to come across as somebody who's difficult and inflexible before they've even offered you the job.

No, exactly. At that point, at the end of your interview, you just want to get out without tripping over anything and leave gracefully, and then let them decide because, yeah, anything that you say around that is potentially going to annoy them. Um, so I definitely wouldn't, wouldn't bring it up then. Um, it doesn't, you know, yeah, sometimes people have had discussions with people before, but you're not really under an obligation to discuss it with them before. Once the panel's made the decision and they call you up to offer you the job, it's very reasonable to, to ask them then. You will need to decide how much of a deal breaker it is to you as to, you know, if you don't get the to be able to work less than full-time, would you not take the job? That you'll need to decide. But yeah, definitely do that outside of the interview room.

I think also, when they phone to offer you the job, if you want to have this negotiation, then the first thing that comes out of your mouth must be, oh my goodness, I'm thrilled to bits. Thank you so much. I'd love to accept. Not, okay, well, is now the time to maybe think about— You know, no, they just need to hear that you're thrilled to bits about it. And then, you know, if it seems appropriate at that time, you can do that. If not, you know, a day or so later, you can say, would there be an opportunity for me to discuss, you know, some requests around flexible working?

Yep, because you won't— at the time they call you, it's just a phone call, it's a verbal discussion, it is not a written contract. But by the time you sign a contract, it will say whether— what your working hours are and so on. So, you definitely have to do any negotiations before you sign the contract, otherwise you are not going to be in a position, in a strong position, shall we say, to be able to change things. So, yeah, it has to be somewhere between leaving the room— no, somewhere between getting the phone call and signing the contract, I would say.

Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. But just, you know, Celebrate the job offer, allow yourself to be excited about it, do whatever you were planning to do to celebrate, and then negotiate the nitty-gritty after.

Okay, good. Well, we will wrap up there. Thank you, Becky, for another fab episode. We should be back next week with lots more, including how to avoid going down the rabbit hole of reading endless NHS reports, which is an easy thing to fall into, but we're going to look at how to focus your time. So we'll see you then.

See you soon!