Ep 8: The One Thing Not to Do at the End of Your Consultant Interview

All right, Becky, welcome back. Great to chat to you again. And we're going to kick off this week like we do every week with a student question of the week. So what have we got from one of our Academy students this week?

So our question from a student this week is, I've just received an email inviting me for a locum consultant interview in 7 days' time. The interview is face-to-face. But the problem is, I'm off on a holiday from tomorrow until the end of next week. What should I do? I definitely do better in face-to-face interviews, so I don't want to do it online in the middle of my holiday. I haven't even had a chance to visit the department. What am I going to do about it?

Yeah, that's a bit of a stress. That is a bit of a stress.

That's quite stressful.

I mean, the time frame is short notice. It's probably not uncommon for a locum interview to have. 7 days' notice. You might even get less, I suppose, for a locum interview. Usually, for a substantive one, you'd get more notice, or you'd know the interview date. Sometimes with a substantive, they put the interview date on the actual job ad, so you would have more notice.

Mm-hmm.

And I think this comes up quite commonly, doesn't it? Because particularly interviews around the summertime or any holiday periods, Like, it often happens that people are away. So, what do you reckon? Should they be abandoning their holiday for this?

I suppose there's a couple of things around this, aren't there? Look, I think if you know that you're likely to be interviewing for a job around a particular period of time, then ideally you don't book your holiday for that, that time, because you do really want to be able to attend face-to-face if you possibly can. Everyone's better face-to-face. It's just easier to build that connection and to gauge what the panel is thinking, and you're not going to have to worry about dodgy Wi-Fi or whatever. I think probably for a locum interview, you know, you can realistically ask if you can do it online from wherever you are on holiday. It's not, you know, quite the same level of intensity as a substantive interview. And you probably can cope and make it okay.

Yeah, I think so. So, I think ask them if, yeah. Also, like, 7 days' notice is not much, is it? It's not, like, if you're overseas, realistically, you're not gonna be able to change it in that short space of time. I think they'd probably be okay with it for a locum interview.

Yeah, I think they'd probably tolerate it. I think then you've just gotta make sure that, you know, wherever you are on holiday, You've sorted it out beforehand so that you're somewhere with good Wi-Fi. You've set it up appropriately so that you know that you're going to be in a room quietly with good Wi-Fi. You know, you've changed out of your beachwear. Um, you've not got cocktail bar in the background. Um, and you're, you know, you're treating it like an interview. So, you know, bring a shirt or something to put—

Yes, wear proper clothes.

On the top half. Yeah.

Maybe bottom up as well, I think, just in case.

Yeah, just, you know, you've got to—

In case you have to get up for something. But also, we have seen quite a few Wi-Fi disasters, haven't we? So, I don't think we can overstate how important it is to make sure that you have a good Wi-Fi connection when you're doing it online. And particularly on holiday, it won't be what you're used to. So, whatever you have at home, you know, it's going to be something different. You have to do test runs of these things. Just set up a Teams call with someone else as a trial and just make sure everything goes to plan because you're stressed enough about answering the questions and then to contend with, oh, can't get the microphone on, oh, the Wi-Fi is dropping out, or they can't hear you, it's going to make it just 10 times worse.

Yeah, I think you've got to take your laptop, do it on your laptop. I don't think you can be doing it on your phone. I think you should go somewhere, you know, ideally, and, you know, book a room in a hotel or something, pay for some decent Wi-Fi for that hour, just so that you know it's going to be okay. Because you're going to be stressed enough as it is without risking, you know, glitching and, sorry, can you say that again, and can you hear me, and all of this. It's just so stressful.

It is. And most hotels will actually have a business Wi-Fi type option or a conference room that you can book, and it's worth spending the 40 quid or whatever it's going to be, just for the peace of mind. Because it really could make or break your interview. If they can't hear you, they can't score you, and you're going to be stressed, and it's all going to go horribly wrong.

Yeah. So, I think we're saying, for a locum interview, it's fine to ask for an online interview, especially with that little notice, but then do everything that you possibly can to make it work for you so that you are presenting a professional presence and able to really give it your best, even though you're online.

For a substantive, should we talk about it for a substantive? Because I think it does come up as well, is people being on holiday, even though they know an interview is roughly coming up, but you can't put your life on hold for it. And if you've got a big holiday planned, or maybe some significant trip overseas for a long period of time, we often get people asking if they have to come back for it. Would that change your advice?

I mean, I, I personally would do everything I possibly could to be there in person for a substantive interview.

Yeah.

Um, I, I just think, you know, bearing in mind what I said before about just making that connection, I just think it's easier. And with the best will in the world, if everyone else is there in person and you're not, they've got probably an easier way of making and building and, you know, maintaining a connection with the panel than you have.

Yeah.

So I think you do need to think really carefully about it. If you absolutely can't, um, then I think all of the same things apply. Um, but I would try, if you possibly can, to have at least met the people in person before the interview. So before you go on holiday, you know, try to meet as many people on the panel face to face so that you have built some sort of rapport with them that you can then build on in the online space of the interview.

Yeah, that's a good idea. So, it's kind of the second best option, but it still means that you've actually showed your face. I think it's unpopular advice when we give it because no one wants to have to come back from their holiday, and really, you want to be told, it's fine, you just do you, and you have your holiday. And you can, it's not a wrong thing to do, but in the end, if it's your dream job, Then I think it's worth making the effort to go, because you don't want to have regrets. If only I'd have come back, I would have got this job. And it's not that being there gives you the job and not being there doesn't give you the job, but in the end, if everyone else has made the effort to be there face-to-face and you're not there, I think it's— you have a much harder job. It's not that you can't get the job, you still might, but you will have a much harder job of convincing the panel.

Yeah. I mean, I think, look, It— we clearly can't say that, you know, they're going to score you more highly, but because your answers are your answers. But the people on the panel are human beings. If they feel warm about you because they're in the room with you, you're giving off lovely vibes, you know, you're just the person that they want, you know, to be on their team, um, you maybe had a bit of a chat before the interview started and it just kind of started, you know, you really got off on the right foot. They're just going to feel warmer, more friendly, and happier about you. And I think that will translate in their scoring, even though that's a subconscious bias for them. So, yeah, agreed. This is going to be unpopular advice, but I'm all in with it.

Sticky with it. We're sticky with it. Fine. Okay. And let's go on to the golden example of the week. So, this is an example that a student, one of our Academy students, has suggested they might use for one of their golden examples. What's— what have we got this week?

Okay, so this is an example of a mistake, and the student has said that the mistake is that one of the critical care outreach regis inserted a central line. There was some kind of problem with the line being misplaced, and therefore it couldn't be used. And then the interview candidate explained to the family that the line was, you know, not in the right place, needed to be removed, and that the treatment couldn't be started as a result of that. And their learning from that mistake was that actually they need to train their junior colleagues to check line positions more effectively so that we know that they're in the right place after insertion.

Okay, so it's one of their junior colleagues who's done the lesson, and it didn't work.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, okay. So, this is— I think this might be a good example for the colleague to use as their mistake, but maybe not for the person who's asking. And I think one of the common things is that this is an opportunity to be a bit vulnerable and show Yeah, I'm holding my hands up to this. I own up to it. I made a mistake, and you know it was. I felt really bad. And commonly, people find mistakes that aren't really their fault. It's not. It's not something that people do deliberately, but you don't want to confess to anything that's too, I don't know, big or too vulnerable. And so you kind of remove yourself from the mistake. I think this is an example of removing yourself from the mistake because clearly it wasn't their their mistake was it was the it was the reg who put the line in, or whatever happened, or it was a noted complication or whatever. So, it's not really their mistake. And what they would be saying is, well, the buck stops with me because I was the supervising person. And although that's technically true, yes, you are technically responsible. And so, if whatever happens, then ultimately it's your responsibility. You don't really feel vulnerable in the responsibility. And so, it's kind of like a safe way of doing an example. So, I think I would say, this isn't really an example of your mistake, is what I would say to them. And I would push them to find something that they feel a bit more vulnerable about.

Yeah. I think you've got to own it. I think you've got to be able, with these mistakes, to hold your hands up and say, You know, that, yeah, that was me. I did the wrong thing. I felt terrible about it. And these are the steps that I took to put it right in the moment, and to reflect on it more widely, so that I'm not going to make the same mistake again in the future, and potentially to use my reflection and learning to help guard against anyone else in the team making the same mistake. But you can't really— you can't— if you think about how that would play out at work, you actually can't go, go and say, look, um, guys, I'm just gonna flag that, uh, you know, my colleague made this mistake, uh, and I don't want the rest of you to do it. It's not going to land well. And so it's not going to land well in the interview either.

Yeah, so we think probably not use that, but there is an element of it that I think could be used for another example, which is this duty of candour part, right?

Yeah, I think so, because actually, you know, this is an example of, you know, a patient coming to harm, albeit the harm is, you know, minimised by the fact that it sounds like the line wasn't used, but there was a delay built into their care and so on as a result. And so actually, they could use this example as a duty of candour. You know, I realised this mistake had happened and that care was going to be delayed, and I used— and then I realised this was a duty of candour And I needed to go and apologise to the family about what had happened and make a plan for rectifying it and moving forwards. So, yeah, I think sometimes just reframing it in a different way is helpful.

Yeah, because there's nothing inherently about the example that would make us say, no, this is a deal breaker. It's just probably not best suited for their mistake because of the reasons we mentioned, but could be good for duty of candour, good if you were the person who inserted the line and it didn't go to plan, potentially. But yeah, not for their mistake.

Good. Okay.

Great.

Should we think about the interview question? So, this is a question that came up recently as part of one of our students' interviews. What have we got?

The question that we've got is, how do you embody the trust values? So, what do we think?

I actually really like this question.

Do you?

Why?

What is it you like about it?

I like it. I like it because it's an opportunity for you to showcase a bit about who you are. It is also a question that you can get yourself in a right pickle with if you're not careful, so yeah, I think you do have to prepare for it. So, the first thing is you do need to know the Trust values, right? That's the rule.

It's going to be very awkward if they ask you this and you don't. You're going to have to take a guess.

Full disclosure though, in my interview for my current job, I I actually got asked what my favourite trust value was and how I embodied it. Um, and I, I talked about caring, uh, and then at the end they gave me a little smile and, uh, and I said, caring's not one of the trust values, is it? They said no. I said, okay, but I really do think it should be.

Yeah, we should change them. We should change the values.

Oh, it kind of doubled down that Anyway, I got the job, but it's really not the approach that I would advise. I think the other thing, the other thing to say about this is don't try to name all the Trust values in your interview. If they've asked you for 1 or 3 or whatever, just give them those, because it's like trying to name all the clinical governance pillars. You just can't remember them all under pressure. No.

You start getting stressed.

Don't do it to yourself.

And actually, I don't think we've ever, in all of the hundreds and hundreds of interview question sets that people have submitted to us from the Academy, I don't think anyone's been asked, name the trust values, have they?

No, not as far as I can recall.

A question around trust values comes up very commonly. I wouldn't say in every interview, but certainly in most interviews. But they're not quizzing you, like, tell me the trust values. But having said that, you should know them because you know a question's likely to come up about them. So this question is about all the values in general, right? So sometimes I think they ask, which value do you embody the most? In a way, that's, I think, a bit easier than this question because then you just pick one. So, yeah, would you— what would you try to do with this then about embodying the values?

I'd probably choose 3, 3 of the values. And I would tell them how I embody each bit, and I would try to build in my USPs to demonstrate, you know, each of them. So for example, if one of the trust values is about collaboration, I would say, you know, I would say the trust— one of the trust values is collaboration, and the way that I embody that is by, for example, doing a project on, you know, and I might talk about, you know, this is a project that I've worked with the multidisciplinary team in my department, you know, in other departments that, you know, cross the patient pathway that I'm talking about, and talk about a quality improvement project that I've done for a particular patient group. So, you know, for example, we worked on being an autism safe space, and, you know, we worked with the multidisciplinary team across the hospital to do that. And I might kind of use that as one of my projects, and then I'd probably pick 2 other trust values and talk about those as well. I might use another USP for one of them, and then for another one, I might kind of just talk about one individual patient that shows that I've done that, or maybe talk about something else that I do with a staff group. I actually quite like if people do with this question, I quite like it if they do something that's about patients, like bigger picture, something that's about staff, and maybe something that kind of involves a sort of individual patient so that you can get a real flavour of who that person is.

Yeah, I think that's a nice spread. It can be— I think it's quite hard to do all of that in one answer, but yeah, I mean, that would be the, the gold. I think sometimes people— what you're saying, I think, is really important around bringing in specifics, because I think— because the trust values are usually quite fluffy, shall I say, um, you know, caring, kind, compassionate. And so soft skills, it's easy for people to go down a fluffy answer and not really say anything. I'm really kind. I'm really nice to everyone. Everyone likes me. My MSF feedback was great. And just get generally quite vague and nonspecific. But you can actually be specific and objective and demonstrate these values. And what you're saying with collaboration is a great example where you say, well, OK, I'm collaborative. which is potentially a soft skill, but that's demonstrated through this amazing project that I've done, or this amazing MDT team I led. And so, you're using objective ways to showcase the soft skill. And I think that's really the goal. And another one is effective care, or whatever, thinking, actually, I deliver evidence-based care. We've done this guideline review or this service development. So, Even though it's potentially around soft skills, bringing in the specifics, I think, will make a much stronger answer.

I just think always be specific rather than being general if you possibly can, because it just gives the panel a real flavour of who you are and some evidence of stuff that you've achieved, and that's what they need to hear about.

Yeah, and I think this question usually comes towards the end of the interview about trust values, and so it's an opportunity, really, for you to think, what have I not talked about that I want more time to be able to tell the panel about? Because you know it's probably coming to the end. You're about to leave the room. What else? Is there something? Is there a project that you didn't get a chance to talk about as much as you wanted? And I'm sure you can draw it in. And the beauty of it is that because the trust values are so flexible, you can really apply the values to any project that you've done. I'm sure you can find a way you were collaborative in a project, or you were accountable, or you were caring, or whatever it is, you'll be able to draw that into the project you've got in mind. So just, yeah, bear in mind the big picture of your interview answers as a whole at this point and what else you want to bring in.

Should we talk about the interview tip and trick? I know you love this one. Tip and trick, yep. So, the tip and trick is, you get to the end of your interview and the chair of the panel says to us, have you got any questions for us? I know you've got some strong feelings about this. Why don't you share them? I really do.

Because I have seen, as I've been on panels, I've seen people do this really badly. And you just feel like, oh no, it was all fine. Why are you doing this at the end of your interview? So for me, I feel pretty strongly that there are really no good questions you can ask at this point. Really, your interview is done. You are scored on all of the other questions. You will not be scored on this. It's not like a chance to shine or dazzle them. You've had that. So you've done it, it's done. And now you need to exit with grace and go and have a coffee and a debrief somewhere and just wait for the result. Because this question isn't scored, the only thing that you could possibly do, in my opinion, is just really annoy them. Because either you say something that you should have known before, you should have been able to find out before, or it's a question that just rubs someone up the wrong way on the panel. And also, it takes more of their time. They're like a really important panel that have got together of very senior people, and they're interviewing other people, and you're done. So I just think they could just be like, come on now, come on now, Tessa, it's time to wind up. Why are you taking more time? So I think it's just an opportunity to really annoy people, and you shouldn't be asking questions then.

Yeah.

Do you, Becky, have any thoughts thoughts about any good questions? Like, do you think there is a question that could be asked at this point that would be helpful?

No. Okay, I'm just trying to think.

Um, okay, so, but you do have to say something in answer to that. So I think you could add the no with a bit of, um, explanation, you know. No thanks, you know, I, I had a great chat with X, Y, and Z person in the run-up to the interview, and I got to see rounds, and I was able to ask all the questions I had before then. Something like that.

Yeah.

And yeah, I think just practice it before so you know the question's going to come. So just practice it so you're not stressing, and then it's done.

Yeah. I think to be absolutely clear, now is not the time to negotiate your PAs, your job plan, your leave, um, anything particularly you want to do. Any roles, whatever, that should have either been done beforehand or wait until they offer you the job. Don't say anything that's going to make them think, oh God, this person's going to be a nightmare. Um, just don't go near it. Um, so yeah, leave with grace. Thank them, give them a smile, and exit the room.

Yes, I think that is definitely the safest thing to do. Um, and then you can, yeah, you can talk to them about all that stuff about your start date and your whatever is afterwards. Even things like, because I know we've had people who've said, I'm just about to be on a plane because I'm off now, so I won't be able to pick up my phone for the next 12 hours or something. So, if you call me, you might— I wouldn't bother with any of that. But you want them to just make a decision based on the interview and offer you the job. And whether you answer the phone at that moment or not, it will not change that. But the explanation before might annoy them. So, yeah. I don't think there's a good reason, but I would love to hear if anyone thinks there's a good question to ask, because I think between us, we've yet to hear one. So maybe there's one out there.

Yeah, please tell us. I'd love to hear if anyone's asked a good question. But I'm going to challenge you. I don't think you can give us one.

Let's see. Let's see what happens. Okay, so I think we'll wrap up there. Pleasure talking to you, as always. Next week, we've got loads more great stuff planned, including we're going to look at using the pause before you jump in and answer the question. So, thanks very much, Becky, and look forward to chatting next week.

See you next time.