The AYCI Academy Alumni Panel - hear about how others prepped and secured their substantive jobs

Great stuff. So, uh, hi everyone. So I'm Ibrahim Joor. I'm a urology consultant and currently starting my new job as a substantive consultant urologist at Milton Keynes University early September. So currently I'm a locum consultant in Oxford. Um, I joined the AYCI Academy because I needed somewhere to start prepping in a very short period of time in a structured way, because there are many things that exist there to prepare you for a substantive consultant interview, but there was nothing like this, Tessa. So I have seen your videos online, and then I had— I was really intrigued and was interested to see what is the format. And then when I joined the Academy, there was a place where I really could see. So at first I started with the short videos that prepared me quite well in a very short period of time, and then I took your advice of practice practice, practice. And I was— I will be honest about it— I was practicing in front of a mirror because I did not have much time to, to be making videos and posting them. But I have made like the Tell Me About Yourself video, um, I have posted it. But this has worked quite well for me, and it made me, you know, aware of myself, of everything. Because you, as you say in every session, that you've done the job, you've done it all, you know what it is, which is very true.

Yeah.

And so the course was simply a format in order to dig out the things that I I've done, which I could find also from the CV, from my experience, but put it in a structured way. And then I went into the interview, which was a great success actually. The medical director has sent very good compliments to the lead in urology that that was a brilliant interview. So I was very thankful.

That's very nice.

Because what this course really— what the best thing it made is cut the nerves, you know. There are no nerves there. You are a senior clinician. Most of the people are either very senior, you know, registrars or even locum consultants, and they have been in senior roles. And so it's just a structure on how to present yourself. And when you practice, you are really ready to be thrown with any question because there is a format. You know that you're going to be thinking about an introduction, 3 lines or 3 examples, and then a conclusion. And I followed that in most of the questions about, apart from the tell me about yourself, where I went through the other forms that we discussed. And so that was a great success.

Just thinking back to like before that, because obviously you were in a locum, you got a locum job before that. So how did you, how did that go? Like how did you prep for that interview and what was it like?

For the locum consultant interview, that was 4 years ago, to be fair. And so I prepared for that as well in a very concise way. And you know, I was, I knew what the job was. The most important bit was knowing what the job description is and knowing how you can, you know, throw yourself into this job. And so the most important is really knowing yourself. But then through your course, it was in a much more extensive way because it is a substantive job and it's, you know, a lifetime job. So you needed really to know everything and you needed to present yourself In a very well manner. And so that was what I, what I thought.

And how did you feel? Like, you'd been in a locum job for 4 years, right, then when you were applying for this? So were you applying in the same place or a different—

No, I applied a different place. Yes.

Okay. And how did you feel then going in as someone with 4 years of locum experience? So it can go either way. Either you can feel like, okay, you've got lots, or you start to panic because you think, are you ever going to get a substantive job? So how were you— how did you feel about it?

I was panicking to begin with, yes, because it's not easy when you think about it. It's a 45-minute interview, 40 to 45 minutes, and especially that, you know, that you're going to be doing a presentation. But I took your words of advice as well because the presentation topic was sent to me 24 hours in advance. And so I took your— oh yeah, so I took all your advice about, and the videos that you've done about, you know, just know your material before you prepare the presentation. which is what I applied. And so I prepared on a piece of paper what I was going to talk about, and then I put it in. And actually, they told me, don't send us any PowerPoint, you're gonna come and talk about it for 5 minutes. And when you know your material, even I have typed, you know, a PowerPoint, I printed it and took it with me, and I lost it on the day, to tell you how nervous I was.

And stressing.

And so, exactly. So I told them, well, I have it on a piece of paper, but you know what, I'm not gonna need it. So let's talk, let's talk about it. And we talked about it for 5 minutes. And that was amazing. Actually, I was surprised about the things that were coming and fluently, you know.

Yeah.

And so that was—

That's good. And actually, what you're saying is good advice for anyone doing a presentation. I know you, you like had on a bit of paper, but when people have slides that they're really reliant on, if the tech doesn't work on the day— I mean, you lost a bit of paper, but if the computer doesn't load up or whatever, if you're very reliant on these, that set of slides, you will lose your mind when you're trying to do that and you'll just totally panic. So, uh, that's a good, a good illustration. I would say 24 hours is quite a tight time. It's not that common that you get it with 24 hours notice.

24 hours, 5-minute presentation. And then they told me, don't do any introduction. We just want you to go into the topic, the subject straight away. Give us how you would set the service. And it was like, for me, a service in andrology, as how you would set this service. Give us a time plan. What would you do? And so, and you know, that was really good. I mean, the way I talked about it and just jumping into— so no wasting time on introduction. But I started my presentation with a short story because I have seen that, you know, from one of your presentations. And I started with a short story that was a real story, but that, you know, set the clock. So everyone was in attention because that introductory line, which was less than 30 seconds, made all the difference in my opinion.

So yeah, that's cool. That's cool. And so you, you didn't know this team before you went there. So what did you— had you reached out to them before the job came out?

Yes.

Or what happened?

Yes. So, well, I knew a member of the team because he is, you know, works in the trust I work in at the moment. And so, so I knew him, but at the same time, I knew what the panel— who the panel was. And I contacted every member of the panel. And so, and I went and met with them. I took a copy of my CV, introduced myself, and said that I was interested in this post. And I took your advice because, you know, you've posted it quite well in the videos, what to ask and how to approach the team, which is what I did actually. And so that was, that was great because they saw that I was interested. They saw I was not just asking any questions, but I was asking relevant questions. What are you expecting? What are your current challenges? Because for me, And I almost came prepared, like every member of the team, what are they expecting? What are they going through? And what am I going to offer? So fitting myself into that post. And so actually on the day also, it helped me a lot because coming on the day, it was not a surprise. I knew, I have seen them before, all the members of the panel. To be fair, I do, I did have 2 additional panelists there who I didn't meet. They just came. Okay. But you did. I was prepared and I was happy.

Yeah.

Okay, that's really good. I'm just gonna— Nalayini, you can— if you turn on your camera again, I'll bring you in as well because you're gonna— we will chat to you too. Hi. So, Nalayini, we're just talking to Ibrahim about his pre-interview visit. So I'll come to you in a minute. So, Ibrahim, when you did that in your pre-interview visits, did they give you clues Like, did they tell you essentially what was going to come up or was it subtle? What happened?

No, not necessarily. So they didn't exactly repeat the same questions. So when I met with the divisional director, I thought as if she was giving me a lot of questions that are going to come up in the interview, which was not the case. So it was almost like an interview before the interview. So, but she was like, you know, how do you see yourself in 5 years? These questions came up in the pre-interview visit. Oh, yes. So, but it was a pre-interview visit where we met over a coffee. I invited her to Costa in the hospital, and I was like, let's just, you know, talk about you, about this department, then I'll talk about myself. And I knew from her, so how do you implement GIRFT in your practice? This was over a coffee, and I thought that this was— were coming in the, you know, interview, but this wasn't the case. So it was almost a pre-interview interview. And so, but yeah, interesting.

So it can, it can Yeah, go on.

No, at the same time, it made me quite prepared because I knew the challenges in the department. I knew what they were expecting. And so on the day, I knew what to say because I know, you know, I'm prepared. I know what you want. I know what I'm providing for the department. And so I think it worked quite well.

It can be very variable because sometimes they're just like, okay, so what do you want to ask me? And other times they're like, what happened to you? So why do you want the job? Why do you? So I think, I guess you have to just go in with an open mind and just go with the flow because you have to just be led by them. Narayini, I'll just come to you. Do you want to just say who you are and what your specialty is and what you do?

Yes, thank you. I'm Narayini. I'm a substantive emergency medicine consultant at Bedfordshire Hospital, Lieutenant Dunstable site. Yes, I'm one of the successors through this academy. I recently got appointed 6th of June, following 2 years in the same trust as a locum consultant in the emergency department.

Okay, well done. And so you knew them when you were going for your substantive interview. Did you do pre-interview visits as well then, even though you knew them?

Yes, of course. So through the standard email, although they're my colleague and I worked with them in different shifts, etc., so I mean, on the the same day, different days, and all different things. This is a quite long time. I did that all formally. So from, from the time onwards, and I just took everything very seriously, the application onwards, how I prepared. Since during this course, the application came out, and so the application was, was filled quite with my USPs and things like that. And then followed by this Pre-interview exercises. So for this interview, and I did have a chairing a meeting dealing with the complaints handling slash those activities. So it's all kind of did it systematically. So then again, the pre-interview visit. So we've been told that we can we can't get hold of that the college representative and the chief exec. So which we we already been primed. So then rest of everybody, including the medical director, and I sent out an email and they all— few of them gave a virtual meeting and few of them, like, and mostly my department team were like invited for a face-to-face meeting. So which were— Yeah.

So I think that it's important for people watching as well that even if you like Ibrahim, you didn't know them, so you're going to go and meet them. But even if you know them, or even more so maybe if you know them, you still do That process because when you see them day to day on the shop floor, they're not they're not got their interview hat on. They're not thinking about interviews at all, and so you don't want to miss out. Like if you don't want your competitors going having pre-interview meetings and getting tips on what's coming up in the interview, and you haven't done it because you just assumed like you know them already. So it's it's definitely good that you do that. Did they give you? Do you think they gave you tips as to what they were going to ask then?

I think when I was in the interview, interview, and they're quite varies. I think the pre-interview few of them. For example, I had a consultant obstetrician who gave a question related to their CQC to compare to our CQC. So for those, she did prime and have you read the CQC report like in on the during the pre-interview meeting. But again, the medical director, clinical director, they they haven't. I think the the interview visit. it were quite, I think, 3, 4 weeks away, like before the interview. So I actually met the clinical director and then she went for a long holiday and came back to that the day before the interview. So she probably looked like, and she wasn't planned the question at that time when I met.

Yeah.

But even though they're kind of, she advised me to just, when you go on a pre-interview, ask and what type of consultant you would like to appoint and What do you, um, kind of— she primed me to what would you like and what you want to ask, um, from other interview, um, interview panels. So that's sort of quite varied. Yeah, they were sounding like, but, uh, yeah, I think, um, it's not the same questions.

Well, I think so. One, I think your obstetric thing is a really good example of why it's so important to do it, because you're going for an emergency medicine job I don't know why they had an obstetric person on the panel, but for whatever reason, there is no way you would have read the obstetric CQC. Like, why would you? Why would you have? I mean, there's no reason. So because you went and spoke to them, they told you, they suggested, strongly suggested you should read it. If you hadn't bothered to meet them, you would never have known that. And they would have asked you about the obstetric CQC in your interview, and you would have panicked, frankly, because you would not have known. And you'd be like, why? It's also confusing. Like, why are they asking you about an obstetric obstetric CQC. And so I think that was a great example of why it's really important to try and get everyone. And you're right, you might not meet— the college rep might say they don't meet you. Did you meet your college rep, Ibrahim?

No.

So sometimes they do, but mostly I think often they don't. But you still ask anyway. And that's fine. Like, you ask, they say no, there's no harm done. It's just— you just want to make sure that you've put it out there. The same, the lay chair doesn't normally meet people, but sometimes does. So I think that was, yeah, that's a really good example. You two have had kind of opposite approaches because Ibrahim, you did yours in a very short space of time. Nalayini, you did yours in a much longer space of time because you preferred practicing and like your confidence built that way. Did you know, Nala— well, maybe I'll go to you, Ibrahim. What do you think about prepping in a short space of time? You obviously did it. Was it Just by like, was that just because it came up suddenly or is that the way you like to prep?

Yes, if you want. This job came up suddenly and so this job came up in a very short period of time. I wasn't aware about it, but, but a word of wisdom. And so I needed to prepare in a short period of time. And to be fair, I performed very well in a short period of time. I performed very well under stress. And so that's how I work, to be fair. So which was fine for me. And this is why I needed something, a course with a structure. I needed some, you know, your short videos, the 5-minute videos. This is what I needed. I needed something to talk about a very difficult topic in a very concise, uh, you know, time. Anyway, I was writing small flashcards, to be fair, and so these were like only 3 points from every presentation. This is what I needed. And so it worked quite well for me, although it was stressful because there is a lot of topics, especially with the new NHS structure with the new advances, with the new, you know. And so I was worried, but at the same time I felt prepared. And so even when, when you checked on me, which is— I thank you for that— but the day before when you checked, you checked, how are you doing? I told you, well, I'll go with a smile, because I felt I was going confident.

Yeah.

I felt I was going fine and I was going to do fine. And this is what happened on the day. So I think you need to be, of course, very well prepared. But even if you prepare for, in my opinion, if you prepare for 3, 5 years, whatever, things can change on a daily basis in the NHS. But if you have a structure, then you're ready. And so I was able to get that structure in a very short period of time due to this course, really.

Yeah, no, you did a great job. And Nalini, you kind of took the, in some ways, the opposite approach. And I know when you joined, your structure wasn't solid, and I think probably your confidence wasn't great. And I'd love to hear how you found it doing it over a longer period. I can't remember exactly how long you did it over, but you were solid practicing answers for a long period of time. How did you feel that built your confidence and how did that evolve for you?

I think I really like on that day of the interview, I entered and I sat down and I, like, in almost 99.99%, and I knew and I'm going to perform well. I think that that amount of confidence which visibly appeared. That's what the panel fed me back afterwards. So that only came after this because the interview is something to just— I kind of— I ever— I have done all these different exams in even different streams and everything, and I never ever had this amount of practice or this amount of stress or anything at all. So this is a completely different ballgame. So for this, I think now I found if something to just that this amount of difficulty, I for people like me to just the the period of systematic practicing and involving this, I totally agree with Ibrahim like and just this keep on changing. But then again, like and just you you change with the change over a period of time, which really helped me, especially to just then the mind was very free. So even if for example, even if they throw me in something really really bizarre, and I just sit back and then just able to answer them in a similar way, or almost in a way like, and to just, um, uh, stand alone from the— compared to the other candidates who, whether they have done the same practice or different practice. So I think that's the feeling.

And I had, which is great because you both kind of had the same feeling going in even though you prepped in different ways. And I think, I guess it's knowing yourself and knowing what you need. Um, to build, and some people do take longer to build confidence. I think it also depends what's happened before and, you know, what your experience has been before, and because that can really, I think, knock your confidence. Hi, how you doing? We were just talking to Nalini and Ibrahim about their, um, interview experience. Uh, welcome. And so we were just saying Ibrahim did his in a very short space of time. He like crash-coursed his prep, um, and Nalini took a much longer period of time. I guess you're probably somewhere in the middle. So do you want to just introduce yourself and say who you are and what you do?

Yeah, of course. So I'm Jenny Lockhart. I am an ST7 anaesthetics in Dundee in Scotland, and I kind of did the April cohort. I think I started the cohort knowing that I had an interview in about 3 weeks' time, so I wasn't going to finish the cohort before my interview. I had a substantive consultant interview on the 22nd of May, for a consultant anaesthetic job that has, like, kind of an obstetric interest, which is kind of my dream job in Edinburgh. And I was very successful with that, and that was absolutely down to Tessa and Becky and the whole team. And I'm really, really pleased to have managed to do that through the Academy.

Well done, you smashed it. Well done to all of you. So one thing that might be good to talk about a bit is, like, nerves coming up to the interview, because I think you all experience nerves in a bit of different ways. And I was just— it would be good to hear from each of you, like, how you handled that and how you kind of got on top of these nerves in the build-up, in the run-up to the interview, that might be useful for other people, like how they manage, how to manage your nerves in the run-up. So you can all answer, I don't mind, you can choose your order, it's fine.

Yeah, so from, from my perspective, uh, obviously, um, it was a nervous process all through, um, but I knew that, you know, uh, what helped me a lot is also listening to others practicing. And so when I, for example, and I went by the most difficult questions because there are hundreds of questions and you have put an extensive list of questions that might be asked. But so I went the most difficult ones, I was listening to others, you know, answering them, and I structured my own, you know, question according to that. And, and so that helped me a lot in building because when I was focusing on my weak points, I knew that I can do well in my strong points. And so that helped me a lot actually with also the practice in front of the mirror. And so that was, that was something that helped a lot through the process. And so plus when I was feeling overwhelmed, I was stepping out doing anything else in just to come back and come back and really strong. And so to focus on, on my practice. So that was my strategy, really.

I think from my perspective, the thing that definitely helped calm my nerves was having the structure. And so just having that concept of the pause and then being able to Just have that, like Jenny, you can think about this answer before you answer it, because I think it's the unknown question. I think that's the thing that always certainly stresses us all out, and that concept of the pause is something that I've never really had before. To be able to use that, utilise it well, and then say, okay, I've got 3 points, and it may not— you might not necessarily have 3 points, even if you have 2 points, That's fine, but you've had that time to be able to think and then structure an answer, so it's not just absolute gobbledygook. So I think that definitely calmed my nerves. I think other things that calmed my nerves was just, yeah, having that good work-life balance between trying to do like things outside of life whilst also like preparing. And I think it's extremely important because you can just get sucked into it all. Daily practice of actually talking definitely helped my nerves for sure. And actually, within your— you've got a book, Tessa, that online book, and in that it has stuff about what to do for the week coming up, I think, and then the day before or something. And it was so useful to me, actually, just like little things that you can do just to really help try and calm your nerves. And like on the day, you know, don't look at stuff, just, you know, try and, you know, take a bath the night before. Or whatever you like to do to relax. All those things I found extremely useful. So yeah, that's what I would say to summarise.

And just to pick up on what you said about the pause, a lot of people get worried about how weird people on the panel will think the pause is. What did you find? Did they mention it? Did you care? Like, what did you decide about it going into it?

Definitely didn't feel— I think I was so used to doing the pause that when I was in the interview, it didn't feel awkward at all. I was somebody who really liked writing points down before answering, and that's certainly something that helped me structure my answers, and that's something that obviously you and Becky definitely advocated for. And I said that at the start of my interview, I said, I'm going to just be writing down a couple of points just before I answer the question. Is that Okay, and they all said, yeah, absolutely, like, that's gonna— if that's gonna get you your best answers. So because I was able to do that, that helped me grounded, and it never felt awkward at all. And I think it definitely— I could see it from their perspective that I was giving better answers because of the pause.

Yeah, I think it's unusual. It would be— I'm not saying no one's ever going to say no, but it would be very unusual for a panel to say no, we you can't pause or you can't, because what's the— there's no advantage to them. Like, they want you to give a good answer. They're not trying to humiliate you. So, um, yeah, it would be very unusual. And I think what you did, Jenny, was really good, which is you just had a sentence that you said at the beginning and that you felt like you were in control of it. They said it was okay, and then you didn't— don't worry about it again. Um, what about you, Nalini? How did you keep your nerves under control?

I just want to take up this pause, which, um, yeah, really worked, um, on me. So, uh, when I was started And I'm just talking about, and I did three cohorts. The first one, and it's all about always to just I take talk inside me to just I do I kind of afraid to just speak out. So this is something to just when the video comes and you have to you have to do it or something like just I said this is not something to just there is no compromise I have to do it. So then when I started to speak that speak out loud and then hear what I have spoken. So my mind was completely a different structure. And then what the answer when I heard. Kind of hear the same answer, like, okay, there is a very kind of very big gap. So how I bring those gaps together to just my mind voice is the same like the voice, hearing voice, and that took a little while. And when then I just keep on hearing what my videos, so that gave me confidence. I think that's relaxed me. Okay, so because Because I now know, like, and if I'm thinking this is what I'm going to say, actually I will sound out exactly the same.

Yeah.

The second thing which put me very easy, and the pause, I really like that. I just want to add that. So whenever in my interview and there are certain questions and I don't need the pause, for example, like in why you want this post, why you want this post. So there's something to just kind of, I can start startup. So when, when the question comes, and I, I saw the interview panel, like, they sit back right down. And so this, this person is going to, to give her, give a kind of an answer. So, so they're getting ready for during the pause. So rather than like, and they wouldn't know, oh, why, how long she's going to take, also looking at me, nothing at all. So I was very relaxed.

Yeah.

They also like setting up and everything and ready to, to kind of pay attention towards my answer. So that's again like a visible feedback, and they're just looking at the panel. So that's how I appreciated the, the posts.

Um, and yeah, I think just for— it's good, it's a good lesson what you're saying about like writing things down, thinking them through in your head. It, it doesn't translate to the same when it comes out your mouth. It's just not. You wish it did, And in an ideal world it would, but it's just not the way it does. You don't know the timing, you don't know how it's going to sound, it feels different, you don't know how to end. So for anyone who's watching, and you know who you are, who's putting off prepping or is practicing answers out loud, that's why we really push it. Because it's only once you start saying it out loud that you realize where you're good, where you're bad. And even if you're bad at first, it's fine, it doesn't matter. That's It's just part of what you have to go through to get better. So yeah, I think that's a really good example of that. Okay, and then so time-wise, managing time, timing your prep around shifts, around family, around whatever is really a challenge, and everyone's in the same boat with that. So I'd be interested to know from you how you manage that and how much much time you were putting into it and how you kind of balanced that with other things. This is to all of you.

Yeah, I think—

Yeah, okay, carry on.

No, go ahead, go ahead.

So the life lesson, because I joined 2 full cohorts, so I probably able to join almost like in 2 cohorts, but 1 cohort worth of life lesson. And in terms of the daily preparation, I actually meant it. And I just say, if I say half an hour or 20 minutes, and I would do the prep— uh, preparation, which includes that, um, uh, the video, like, and just that's all together, just whatever the time. And then think about, think around that video. So to just kind of on that topic on that day. So something to just regular every day. So minimum the time and have whatever, 20 minutes or 15, 20 minutes up to half an hour. But I, I managed to do it every day, no matter like, can I finish late shift and come home or whatever it is. Sometimes there are, there are times where like in middle of the night and I was doing it because I haven't done my 20 minutes. So that's something, and I properly like, and the 2 cohorts become one cohort, but I definitely did those 28 days worth of half an hour practice.

That's amazing. That's solid commitment. Um, what are you, what are you doing with all your spare time now then?

Yes, I'm now like, and I'm an induction lead, so I'm revising everything, everything to just, yeah, full gear. Like, yes.

Ibrahim?

Yeah, so, um, from my perspective, well, I'm a father of 2, uh, 2 daughters, 1 year old and 2 years old, so you can imagine. And I'm a full-time consultant, locum consultant in Oxford. So, um, I really kept an hour a day which was really protected. So I asked my wife, like, after the kids go to bed, I'm gonna be in this study study for at least an hour. And so, and I kept to that. So, uh, I was, um, you know, but I couldn't prepare for more than an hour because of also my clinical commitments and everything else. And I took advantage of driving to the hospital to listen to podcasts and to practice as well. And so these were like my 2 sacred moments of the day. So on a daily basis, driving to the hospital, 20 minutes, you know, everywhere around, and then that, that really helps, really. And so, um, but it was a dedication. And in the weekends I was doing longer hours, um, which also helped. But also what helped me a lot is after every live session I was keeping like at least half an hour or 40 minutes to restructure everything I have listened to, examples, throwing things on paper which I could then repeat the following day driving to the hospital. So this— but commitment, obviously I made the time available.

Yeah.

I know that everyone feels under a rush, but there is time, especially if you want to make time for it. And so here you go. That's true.

I think, yeah, I think I probably worked maybe a little bit harder than— not that I would have liked, but I think I definitely pushed it a little bit. I did go full hog into the whole thing, but I did manage to balance it a little bit. I kind of balanced it through trying to set times. So like I would do maybe like an hour a day or an hour at a time. And there was also times where, again, I would maybe lose focus through trying to look up lots of things, like lots of documents, as you mentioned, like to avoid not to do. And things that really helped me would be small little things if I've maybe had a busy day. So I have quite a long commute to work, so I would listen to the podcast. Or I actually ended up recording myself asking questions, like, you know, saying answers. Yeah, I know, it's like really bad. So like, why do you want to work here? So then I just like sit and listen to my 3-minute—

Nice.

Yeah, just like gets into my head and I'm like, right, okay, I know, like, what I, you know what I mean? Like, what are the points I kind of want to make in that answer? So yeah, I think that certainly helped as well because it felt like I was still doing something despite having to work, go and work a 12-hour shift. But yeah, those are the main things.

I guess using the commute is a good way to do it because it's basically dead time anyway, and especially if you're in a car, there's no one else there with you, you may as well be saying stuff out loud. So yeah, that's a good, very good use of it. So thinking of the interview itself, I would love to hear, like, question-wise, did anything— were there any, like, notable questions that you were thrown by or surprised by? And what kind of— what questions stuck out to you all in your own interviews?

I did get asked a question that I don't think I'd ever seen before. I think the question was, do you think you'll be able to do the job on day 1? Was the question, and I was a bit like, oh my goodness. And again, I think from the AYCI cohort and also from your feedback, is like whenever you or potentially you and Becky are giving feedback, it's like, I don't I just thought in my pause, like, what is the point of this question? Like, the point of the question is to say, like, I have the fundamental skills and, like, knowledge to be a consultant. However, I've not worked in X, Y, or Z, so of course I'm not going to be able to have, like, you know, just go in and just do it on day one and, like, the human factors aspect of it. So I think that's kind of really how I answered that question. And I think it's important, like, yeah, when you have questions like that to just Like, what are they trying to ask me here? What is it they want to get out of me? And I think that's extremely important that I learned through the cohort.

Yeah, that's a tricky question. Or I suppose it's kind of trying to— some questions, the wording's off to throw you off and see what you're going to do, like if you're going to panic or what's going to happen. And I think you're right, like, why are they asking you that? They want to know, you know, are you arrogant? Are you just going to be like, Yeah, I'm gonna smash it. Like, I'm the best person for this job, I'm gonna smash it. Or, you know, are you going to overshare? There's a potential to overshare there as well. Like, I'm really nervous about this, or I'm really worried about that. And actually, I think somewhere you found a nice balance in between from what you're saying, which is like, you have the skills, you're definitely clinically qualified to do this job, but there are some things that you will need to settle into, and that's normal, and that's a very human— I think that's a very honest answer. So it's a good way of showing yourself, like who you are, Jenny, that, um, because it's not a fake answer, uh, but it also shows like you are confident in your ability to do the job. So I think that was a good, good way to deal with it. Um, and yeah, I think the other thing which you kind of alluded to but didn't mention is that when you get a question like that, because you've prepared— in fact, all of you have prepared so hard— you actually know when you get a question when it's an unusual question. You know, you can say to yourself, actually, this is a weird question. They're asking me for a reason to try and push me or challenge me. And because you actually know what's likely to come up, and I think that probably helped you, Jenny, be able to step back and think, actually, you know, come on, I can answer this in a sensible way. So I think that was good. Well done.

I mean, from, from my perspective, there was a particular question when they told me, if you come and come up with new ideas to set this new service, which is andrology subspecialty, and your clinical lead who's there in the interview is one of the panels, is very obstructive, what is your way to deal about it? So I was like, well, this is almost indirectly asking about a conflict with colleague. And so, but obviously I told them that and they were like, because you are— we've been doing this, this way in this department and now you're coming with a change. And so I was like, my answer was, I don't work solo in the department, I'm part of a team and I'll be approaching my colleague and seeing why is he being obstructive about these ideas. And if you've been doing this for the last 20 years, what are the numbers? Are we meeting the targets? If we're particularly successful in a particular thing, I'm not going to change. The change is when you've done an audit, you've done research, and we're not meeting targets, we're not meeting the standards, and this is where the change needs to be implemented. So it's a communication question, but that was— I found that question like, whoa, because he's sitting there. And so, yeah, that was like an unexpected question, but it was a good communication, assessing communication, throwing change, you know, challenges, which was Fine at the end. So there you go.

Yeah, well done. I think I guess they were trying to see what you were, how you were going to react in the in the moment when the guy's there. And so that sounds yeah, you obviously came across very nicely, like not a confrontational kind of person, but able to deal with it. And that's yeah, that was good. That's that's a nice question. I like that.

Yeah, I think um. In mine, 2 of the questions, the one that I kind of made the panel laugh, the last question, the chief exec asked, if you happen to remove one of the trust values, what would you do, or which one you would remove, or things like that. And she primed me, there is no right or wrong answer, you just come up with your own idea and why you want to remove. So I think whoever I I heard that everyone wanted to remove the excellence because that's the way. And I said, I don't want to remove anything. And I just want to join it. And then they all started to laugh. I think this is, this is more just on the spot. And I thought, oh, why are they asking? This is the last question. They already told me, okay, this is going to be done in a few minutes' time. So then they are asking.

Yeah.

So I didn't, I didn't remove anything. And I just set up the same thing and then just revisited them in that similar way.

And then I think it's a very strange question because— and so usually, did you all get a question about trust values? Ibrahim and Jenny, did you get a question about values? No? Okay, so I would say it's quite common, more than half of interviews will get a question about trust values, but it's usually about which trust value do you embody the most. And occasionally they do ask things like, which do you least embody, or which do you— I mean, asking which would you remove is a silly question, isn't it? I mean, what are you gonna say, like, yeah, you're gonna take out kindness? Um, you know, it's, it's very silly. Uh, so again, I think these are all questions, and potentially there's one in every interview that where they're just throwing it in to see what happens and what you're gonna do, and, and just to push you a little bit. You were going to mention another one, Nala.

Yes, so another one actually, just it's a Lieutenant Dunstable and Bedford is a merger, so that's happened before COVID And then this is all kind of— there are different implications due to that. There are good ones, there are difficult ones, there are— I don't know. So this is about— so the medical director started to target on the national issues. And then he really wanted to kind of bring that— bring towards this merger. So I want to discuss these national issues to this merger and how that implicate on that. So this is more like in the national one, he allowed me to talk about some general one. So when I bring it to this, this, the Bedfordshire Trust, and he wanted me to, to more kind of focus on how this merger helped or not helped and difficulty. So I just really wanted to show that I answered the first part. And then I took another pause for Really good period of like a 30-second type of a 20-second pause. And then because he really rephrased the question, just he wanted me to really like just focus through towards this merger and then talk about this, the bigger picture. So the— yeah, I think when I took the pause and then started to talk and he— yes, I'm just going in the right direction. So.

Yeah, and I think this is why it's good to know the context of what's going on in your— in the trust you're applying to. Um, because like, it would only be— obviously if you know the place, it's different, but if you were an external person going there and you didn't know about the merger, it would be very hard to answer that question. And that's why doing your due diligence on the trust you're applying to is so important, because that's, that sort of stuff you would find out from your pre-interview meetings. But yeah, that was a good— I think that's a good question that you got asked. Did any of you get asked about NHS finances or structure or anything about reports? Because people are very worried about getting asked about that sort of thing, so I'd love to hear if anything came up in yours.

I think my question was about NHS. What are the challenges? So that's— they are— they let me pick up rather than they told me. But one of the challenges, and I mentioned that, yes, it's about finance and waiting time.

So you chose— I guess you chose to talk about it there.

Yeah, yeah.

I got asked about the Ockendon Report, which I think is clearly something that applying for an obstetric anaesthetic job you should know about. But again, it wasn't You know, I think the question is, what are the highlights, clearly. And I think you have, again, a thing on the app that has got highlights for like each report that you should know about. I didn't go into the whole report, you know, which was really, really useful, and I just basically spewed that off. I didn't get asked any other finance or flow questions or anything like that.

No, and again, like, they're not going to expect you to know the report inside out, really. I mean, in a 3-minute answer, you only need a few bullet points, and they probably can't remember the whole report anyway. So yeah, that was good. But I think that's also a good example of when it's something relevant, like you're going for obstetric anesthesia, that's a very relevant report. For most people in other specialties, they're not going to ask about the Alkindin Report. But yeah, it's knowing the context of the place you're working for. Did you get any, Ibrahim, about structure, NHS structure or finances?

No, no. But I was asked about how to run an efficient service with a limited financial or limited finance. But I included that also as part of my presentation because that was like how to run an efficient service and set an efficient service. So basically we had discussed that, but I did not get a report question specifically or any structured question.

No. Okay. I think they don't commonly come up, but I suppose it's good to know. And then when you're bringing in like that, how to run an efficient service without spending more money, is like a fairly common question they ask now because no one's got any money and they all need to improve patient flow. So yeah, I guess it's thinking about how to do that. And did you choose— what sort of things did you choose, Ibrahim, to talk about then when you were improving flow?

So I talked a lot in my presentation about the patient turnover, and I said like when we receive the patients, filtering the referrals, triaging system, discussing, assessing the referrals, do we really need to see them? Because this is a district General hospital, we can be referring, you know, more complex referrals to already the tertiary centers, for example. And then from a patient turnover, why they are admitted, because they do have a discharge hub. So really prompt, you know, preparation of patients to be discharged or ready for discharge so that the bed is free by noon to accept further patients and limit hospital stay. And then also limitation of follow-up and directing more clinics into a one-stop clinic, for example. And so that's by liaising with the GP. But there they threw another question like, when you're doing that, how do you make sure that you don't have GP complaints that you are asking the primary service to do a lot? And I was like, it's all through pathways, writing proper pathways so that the GPs know what to expect and what to do before the patients are referred to the department. So it's all, you know, managing expectations from GP, from patients' perspective. And that would all— and if you do have like one-stop service, that would limit journeys. If you can turn also clinics into telemed, this way also patients are less, you know, coming to the hospital, better for the environment because it's a trust also that talks about zero or net emission from CO2, etc. So all of that worked in a way Great answer.

Great answer. I'm sure they were very happy to hear that. Well done. And did you all get a version of tell me about yourself as the first question? And what was the word? Did they word it in a— how was it worded for you?

I think the non-exec chair, they started the interview asking why you want the job. So it's almost like a kind of answer, and I just say in one or two sentence type of, and then that followed me like, and I just took a three three reason why I want this job. It was very specific, and then followed by this, the college rep did ask talk about yourself focusing on your training, and then which then training lead you into. this, what, how, who you are and things like that. So it was, um, kind of full, full-length question.

Fine. So you got all your USPs out there, you know, did you?

Uh, yeah, mine was tell us about your experience to date, and then I just went through, yeah, Team A.

Yeah.

And for me, it was after the presentation. So I had— they started with the presentation And after that they said, the clinical service lead actually said, give us a description about yourself. So almost tell me about yourself. So yeah.

Yeah.

And did any of you get cut off during any of your answers or they just let you know?

No, that's all.

But I had a slightly different type of question. I think this is a general manager of emergency department. She primed me, this is going to be a situational judgment question, so I will be giving you the different part of the questions to kind of take through. So she didn't allow me to talk for 4 minutes, then gave me 5 or 6 part of those questions. For example, if a situation— she gave me a situation and then, can this happen? Or this is quite common? Or what do you— what are you thinking? And then how, like, and just kind of, she included more and more complicated, just To, to take through. So rather than, okay, this is a busy, crowded department, and how, what you're going to do it. So it's more like just the theme was flow, patient experience, safety, and kind of collective of, but it was part, part questions. And then when I answered that part, and then she then asked the next thing. So she primed me before the question. So you won't be answering everything in one go.

No. Okay, that was good. Yeah, I guess they gave you— you all had a very good solid range of questions, I think. So they did really test you. It wasn't an easy— you didn't have easy interviews. Um, okay, and then I guess you, you're all successful, which is great. So what, how, what does it mean to you to have your substantive job sorted? And, you know, what What has changed for you in getting that secured?

I think my blood pressure's dropped.

Mine has too, as well, Jenny, since you got yours.

Yeah, so definitely that. Yeah, I just think, yeah, just job security just is such a lovely thing to be able to achieve. And I think nobody really warns you how stressful the last year of your training is until you get there. And then it's like, oh my goodness, I've got to like do all these things. And nobody tells you about how to like do these things, like talk to people. And, you know, it's completely different to any sort of interview that I've ever had before because clearly it's all systematic and it's all national, whereas this is very much like, oh, you need to go and chat the chat and, you know, do the right things, do the right things for the, um, try and show that you're interested in the job. So yeah, it's just so nice to be able to know that you've got the job, you know, if it is the job that you want. And yeah, it's just relief. That's what I felt. It was just pure relief when I got the phone call, just knowing that, yeah, that's it. And yeah, that's all I can say.

Yeah, yeah, I totally just hear what exactly the similar, similar thing when the clinical director called me. She said, you are now like a permanent member of the trust. And that kind of came to me. This is something like, and yeah, I'm, I'm a person, I won't kind of, I won't speak out loud and say this is me and just show like, and you, you all can kind of hear from me. I normally just do the action so that people see my action and just so Always, and I needed time. So I took the time, and then again, this is this is really a big relief when I heard like okay. So the whole whole of my hard work paid off, and something like especially the current climate and what's happening around, which is a really really a big thing to know. Yeah, relieved.

And yes, I mean for me it is you've crossed the bridge. I mean, because you know, especially I have trained in Lebanon, my home country, then France, then coming to the UK, then FRCs, then Caesar, and now it was like the ultimate goal, which is to get the substantive. And it's like you know, once you get this phone call that we would like to appoint you as substantive, you've been successful into interview, it really you know highlights a button, which is now it's time for really leadership. and time for a senior role rather than just being, you know, aiming to get the substantive because now you've reached your aim, you move into your second goal, which is really leadership, which is making a change, which is really implementing everything you have discussed. So I feel now like I'm ready. I told them, can I start tomorrow? Obviously, I have to give my notification period. But, you know, I mean, it was putting me in a much more senior, if you want, and leadership role to just crack on. And make a change. So that's quite nice actually to feel. And obviously the security of a substantive job, and you don't have to worry about a job anymore.

Yes, fab. I'm so happy for you all. You bloody smashed it. Well done. So just as we're coming to the end of the session, is there any final things for anyone watching for interview prep tips, like what you would advise or any final Thoughts to share for each of you to share with anyone who's watching?

Trust the process. You know what you're talking about, Tessa and Becky. And very much practice, daily practice. I cannot describe how much that just helps. And it's awful when you start and then it gets better. Just do it because it will just pay off so well in the interview, and it's clear when they know that, you know, you've really well prepared. And well prepare, so like do your research about the department and like go and meet everybody on the interview panel, or ask to meet them, make that effort.

Yeah, practice, that's all. You just hear what you say And then keep crack on and you trust, trust yourself, trust the hard work you do. You actually just, you've been trained in such a way. So as everyone else, everyone says, so that you, you now know how this is all going to be. So crack on the right path of practice, practice, and until you feel like, yes, it's, it's all going to be okay. Yeah.

And from me, actually, it is too much. Preparing for a substantive interview is too much work. Know the structure, know your unique selling points. You've all done the work. It's just the way of how to show it in a structured manner, especially under stress. And that's for me, obviously it comes with practice, but also it comes with even it Everything changes for everyone. Everyone prepares in a different way. If it's for you, a small flashcard, take points from every presentation, but the spirit is there in the Academy. So you get the spirit of how to prepare, you get the spirit of feeling self-confident. And actually, as Jenny and Narini said, trust the process, because due to this process, I was like chilling the day before. Seriously, I was feeling happy, I was feeling excited, I was feeling this as an opportunity, not as test. We've done all the tests on Earth. Now it's time to show that we deserve this, you know, final spot and final crossing to that bridge. So we, you know, and, uh, this academy provides us all. So here we go.

Fab.

Thank you all. You've been awesome, and I'm very happy for you all, and it's really nice to chat to you. So I appreciate it, um, and it's good to see you all.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. All the best. Good luck.

Thanks, guys.

Bye.

Thanks. Bye.