Episode10

Welcome to the EI Guru podcast, a podcast completely focused on emotional intelligence. Typically, the first question I get is what is emotional intelligence? In very simple terms, it's how we manage our emotions in our interactions with ourselves and others. Or put another way, it's being in the right state and, and not being in a state when under pressure. Emotional intelligence is another label for mindset and we all know that when navigating those important conversations, we need to tap into our best. I'll be interviewing leaders and experts in this ever expanding field and sharing the data on why emotional intelligence is the difference that makes the difference in all of our relationships. Remember to share and subscribe to the EI Guru podcast and if you have any questions, you can post them once you've subscribed. So good morning and welcome to the latest episode of the EI Guru podcast. And I'm again joined by Dr. Joe Maddox. And we've had a little bit of a break between unpacking the emotional intelligence model that Joe co created back in the day, coming up to 30 years ago and today we're going to be looking at the, a number of the relationship management scales. So we've, we've been looking at and in fact I'll get Joe is going to be better to recap what we've covered so far. So maybe if I just dive straight in and Joe get you to recap where we've been so far through the model.

Yeah, sure. And people who've listened into the previous podcast because we've sort of worked our way from the bottom upwards, haven't we? We started with the attitudes underlie emotional intelligence, self cons, self regard, regard for others and how that manifests and our awareness of ourselves and other people. And then we spent a couple of podcasts talking through self management actually our behaviors, if you like, such as goal directedness, flexibility, locus of control, personal power. But of course that that comes across into relationships and it largely influences how but of course that that comes across into relationships and it largely influences how, how we interact with others. The arrows go, you know, both ways, but I say it's more dominant from how we behave, impacting others in particular, which is what we're going to look at a bit today. And when we talked about self management, those facets, they relate very strongly to leadership and performance. So we picked up on quite a bit of that and the importance of emotional intelligence generally, the recognition of it in society, in the workplace, in education over the last 20, 30 years and the future of it, you know, the likes of McKinsey Company and Harvard Business Review are still talking about 2030 being, you know, a sort of growth period for this area or more consolidation and focus on where it's going and particularly in areas like technology and artificial intelligence and so forth. Does it need the human contribution? Of course it does. And this is where, you know, AI empathy, the human influence is vital that we get it right. We talked about the emotional labor of jobs, the greater demand on people emotionally, mentally, perhaps less physically, but it's still in the body and how that is very relevant to the need for emotional awareness and management of your state. And of course the growth in well being, understanding of well being, mental health, mental illness and resilience. And that area we discussed is very relevant, of course. So there's a big, you know, movement which fits very well with what's been created over the last 20, 30 years in this field that fits for the future. And I think it's about not just talking about where it's come from, but how it's going to be appropriate to where, where things are going.

Yeah, sorry just to interrupt you, what, what blew me away really on when we were looking at the data was the well being data, you know, the, the trillion dollar productivity, you know, the reduction in productivity because of, you know, stress burnout. Well being is the sort of the title that it's being referred to nowadays, of course. And you know, a trillion dollars lost due to a decrease in productivity because of those individuals, not, you know, their well being, stress, et cetera. So EI has a massive impact as you say. As you said, the data is very overwhelmingly in favor of improve your emotional intelligence, your ability to cope and deal with, and strategies to cope and deal with stress and be able to recover and re energize or all help, you know, people's well being. And that's, I mean it's sort of almost common sense. This is the funny thing, isn't it? Let's face it, it's common sense. And in a way that's the old fashioned term that we would have perhaps used common sense. And we all know that common sense isn't common practice. So it's about trying to make sure that we are conscious and aware when we have, have those, you know, the red mist hits us and that we actually respond appropriately in certain situations. So I, I'm, I'm quite excited about our conversation today about navigating some of those tricky conversations that we might need to have with, with people that we work with, but also relationships in general. So when we're talking about relationships, we're talking about our, our personal relationships, but also our work relationships as well. So sorry to interrupt, but I just.

No, no, that's absolutely. Jim. I mean, I like the phrase of common sense isn't the same as common practice. Because this is what we've been saying in some of our earlier podcasts about the neuroscience behind emotional intelligence. We know what we should do. Very often the hard part is putting it into practice.

Yeah.

In a continuous way. You might be able to encourage somebody to do it for a moment, but how do you make that habitual and ingrained? Takes a lot of rehearsal. And we know the emotional brain learns through experiential activity. The cognitive brain. I know, I always say, and I know a lot about emotional intelligence, but I don't pretend I am the most emotionally intelligent person.

Yeah, me neither.

Yeah. But we do say between two of us, we probably just about make a decent human being.

I reckon you're bang on. You know, I think that's so, so true. So, so, so true.

And, and this is why it's so important with emotional intelligence that we don't just intellectually know it, we embody it, we practice it, and we know how to make that happen because this is what wellbeing is. Everyone's read self help books and you can go online and get the 10 top tips. And you probably most of the therapists and coaches out there, the people who have got the most issues because they're so interested and they've read so much and they're so learned about it, but EI doesn't work that way. AI works emotionally, not cognitively, and therefore even us talking about, it's a great starting point, but it's what you do afterwards. And I was struck by this. Your previous podcaster, Paul, talk about experience. You know, he'd been literally in the trenches doing this stuff and he knew how it affected him with ptsd, but he went out and what does he do? Walk 5,000 miles around the Britain.

Yeah.

Crazy things.

Ran, ran. Not ran.

Sorry.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, phenomenal. That's doing something, isn't it? That is doing something.

And interestingly, I have seen his transformation as well, Joe, which is quite impressive to see someone. I didn't realize just what sort of state Paul was in. When I first met him, he'd literally come back from a tour. He was being discharged medically for pt ptsd, and he was on the edge. You know, eight of his friends in the last six or so months have committed suicide. And, you know, one of the reasons that he and his colleagues that have, you know, got together and started, you know, creating this new charity called Head Up. The reason for that is that, you know, they, enough's enough. So as you probably heard in the podcast, they, the army, the forces, train people really, you know, get them in a great space to then be able to go to war. But actually when they come back, they, they're still struggling to get that aspect right. You know, how do you, you know, sort of re, you know, reintroduce people back into the real world, you know.

And that is the ultimate end point of it of not getting this right is, you know, end of life, you know, suicidal. And I know you've done more on that side of things with your charity work, with the cycle for suicide.

Yeah, cycle against suicide. Yeah, yeah.

So this stuff, you know, it's not just about performance, you know, which is obviously we're focused more on the workplace, but you know, the work is, you know, a large part of what we do and it provides an awful lot of our self esteem and, you know, worth as a person if we feel productive, engaged in what we're doing and choosing the right career path. We're talking just before this about the importance of young people finding the right path because that's going to be the world you're going to spend a lot of your time in. It's going to mold you and your well being. And I'm just going to finish really by saying on the, on the recap bit is that we talked about the evidence of emotional intelligence. It does come across all those tiers, you know, at the performance level, you know, in terms of predicting job work performance, there's wealth of evidence there, the middle level about engagement and awareness. There's, you know, the stacks of evidence of climate change, people being more engaged, more productive with the encouragement of emotional awareness and of others. And finally the well being bit, which we've just been talking about self esteem, which is where it all stems from, of course, but it's not always easy to address that. So hence with, with the, you know, emotional intelligence profile and other tools, we look at the different facets as ways in to get to the core of the onion, to find one piece that might be just the, you know, the piece in the jigsaw that you're missing that will really help you. And that's why we go into these different parts of the jigsaw as we're doing today. So yeah, we're going to talk about relationship management today. Jim, I was going to talk A bit about the. It's interesting relationship management because it's, you know, a lot of the scales are what we call dynamic. So they're, they're some movable. More is not always better. And some of those are. Gets into defensive behaviors, dark side derailment kind of characteristics.

Yeah.

Which is also very, very powerful. Understanding the, the deeper levels of what drives us very often sometimes to perform very well, but also to take us off track and you know, not, not. Not get. Do not achieve what we want and generally also impact negatively on other people.

So I mean, just as we start unpacking and looking at the relationship management scales, for those people that may have had an EI profile done, you know, they've done the questionnaire and for those practitioners out there that use the profile tool. So the relationship scales are measured differently. So maybe if you can speak a little bit about that. I don't know whether you were going to or not, Joe, but, you know, I, I always find it interesting you. You just alluded to the fact that you can have aspects of too much or too little. So maybe.

Yeah, if you can, I could start there.

Yeah.

And this is one of the most interesting things for me. And it differentiates the model that I sort of got it got into originally with Tim Sparrow. But emotional intelligence for me is not. Although it can be measured as a trait and there are tools that do that. For me, it is a dynamic concept. It's. Emotions are variable, they're reactive. And our behavior as a consequence will. Will change. Aristotle talked about the, you know, the, the virtue of being, of. Of being moderate, of not being at the extremes. And I think this is a good general starting point is you can have too much or too little on many facets. In fact pretty much all aspects. If you take it to the extreme, you can overdo it or underdo it and learning to find that sort of appropriate balance or maybe learning to be able to move across the scale appropriately. So sometimes we do need to be pretty assertive or even aggressive. Possibly there's a reason for aggression. It's a useful attribute. As long as. Was it Aristotle who also said it's learning to when and how and who to be aggressive with and all that. It's not just letting it control you. So yeah, I think this is what we do with the. Certainly with the Emotional Intelligence Profile instrument was about getting that. That balance right. There's an optimal level. And a good example of that is how in terms of dynamic variation is that you can actually go from one end of the scale to another very quickly sticking. You know, there's, there's a facet we call emotional expression and control. And at one end of the scale you've got bottling things up over controlled and the other end of the scale you've got letting things out, being highly volatile, unpredictable and you can tell what happens if somebody bottles things up, keeps it constrained. It's not going to just stay there, it's going to come out in one way or another, often in maladaptive type of behaviors. So you know, I remember Tim Sparrow, who's a psychotherapist, my colleague and co developer of some of this material and the models said with it with his patients they'd come to him. So I've got this anger problem, I need to be able to deal with it and control it. And he says, well actually what you need to do is let it out.

Yes.

Learn to notice it sooner. Pick up on the early signals of irritation and frustration or being too passive, whatever and then it'll be easier because once it gets, you get the red mist and all, it gets too strong. It's really tough to control.

Yeah, I call, I call that and I think we've laughed about this before. I, I label it as a. Having a hissy fit. So you know, having a hissy fit like you've lost control of yourself. And yeah, I think about a child in a supermarket, you know, like the five year old that's not getting this, not getting their way. They want a sweet or something before lunch and the parents said no and they, they throw themselves on the ground and you know, flap about. We've probably all experienced that as parents.

Yeah.

You know, that, that is a little bit of a hissy fit. And I call them, you know, either a big hissy fit or a mini hissy fit.

So throwing your toys out the pram.

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is actually quite an interesting analogy hissy feel because you're really often going back to your child self is that part of you that overreacts and is spontaneous and fun but also troublesome and you know, difficult and you know, when that takes over it's difficult to sort of control ourselves. So yeah, there is this, this rebound effect. So the same person who bottles this, you know, motions up can also be quite unpredictable and volatile and finding the middle ground if you like in ta transaction. Now it's about using your adult, the part that's choiceful and aware. It's got a sort of kind of problem solving intelligence. So hang on a minute, you know, just let myself go not nothing wrong with being very parental and organized and control of my emotions at the right time. Like what we're doing now because we're business people and we're doing a podcast. But other times, like tonight, I'll go to a party, let my hair down, whatever that's going. But that's choiceful behavior. Yeah. It's not sort of crazy, unpredictable.

You can let your hair down.

I just had my haircut.

Yeah, well there you go.

You can, you can let you know my beard go.

Yeah, yeah.

Movember beard.

Yeah. Well November has gone now, so I did end up with some sort of cowboy without the. That bit in the middle. So. Yes. Yeah, it's been trimmed back now.

Okay. So yeah, we're talking about the, the dynamic aspect to many of the areas of emotional intelligence. And the example there was emotional expression and control. But you know, we can pick up on the other scales we'll talk about later. And the similar, similar variation goes on and I was going to link that to the life positions. I'm okay, you're okay. You know the underlying self regard, regard for others. Because depending on our self attitude, if I've got a low self regard or low regard for other people, that's going to come out in these scales.

Yes.

Yeah. On the, on the attitude two by two matrix. Yeah. So, so if I've got a sort of. And this will vary depending on situations, you know, we can be thrown back into feeling bad about ourselves or feeling very critical about other people. But starting with the example of low self regard, I'm not okay. And, and also if you back that up with other people are better than me, so you put you on a pedestal and me down here, how does that come out in different parts of emotional intelligence? Well, if you had to take the example of, I don't know, emotional expression and control, the one we've just talked about, you may tend to keep all your emotions in and think nobody wants to hear what I've got to say. Although sometimes it come out the other way. And you can become a stroppy and say, you know, be so upset and just let your emotions out. But some of the classic ones are so low self regard, you'd have low self awareness, not paying attention to your own needs and what you want. Yeah, maybe low goal directedness, which is what I matter, doesn't really count. Other people come first. And I'm not going to follow my own needs and wants because I've got to put other, please others, that type of thing. And on some of the rebound Scales like trust, you may become over trusting of other people, think they're more intelligent, more capable, more worthy and you know, depend on them. So that would take us to the other scale of interdependence. Being dependent on other people.

Yeah. For their view, their opinion.

Yeah, yeah.

So because the self regard pushes so you're self deprecating in that space. So you, you're not, you're. You, you're not comfortable in your own skin. So you, your internal dialogue's not great which then triggers off the thought that you know, everyone else is better than me, you know, you know, compared to me, so my view is not going to be accepted or, and then they start seeing those behaviors as well. So they then look for, you know, for confirmation of, you know, misreading body language. So their self awareness and awareness of others may also not be particularly great.

Yeah, yeah. Because we, we distort our self perception through this, this lens of I'm not okay. So we may say oh God, I didn't say the right thing or people, what are people thinking of me now? It's continually being reflected in this self concept of low self regard. And do bear in mind we move around those positions so it doesn't mean you live there. Even though they're called life positions. We may have a core default position. But yeah. The question we often ask is how do you get yourself back in the good zone where you do feel. Okay.

Yeah.

And you put, you have equal standing for yourself and others. So you don't want to lose your regard for others but not use it as a reason for putting yourself down. Which is often we do, we compare ourselves as well. They're more, they're more friendly, they've got more friends, they're doing better than me. Whatever it is, all it does is reinforce of lowering ourselves.

Yeah, yeah. And that's that that also speaks to the emotional resilience and also the personal power aspects of you know, going back into the self scales. So as you said, it's very dynamic and typically when I see. And you, you will have seen this as well when someone does score low on their self regard that those two first scales of the self management scales get hit quite badly. Typically.

Yes, you know. Absolutely. Because they're highly correlated with self regard. Yeah. I suppose I was focusing on the relationship manager because they're the ones but it affects all the different parts.

Yeah, of course, yeah.

And the other side, of course is the, the other side to that. So would be the high, high self regard but low regard for other people.

Yes.

So the masking, not feeling, it's actually underneath that as a sense of I'm not. Okay. But the way you protect yourself is by pointing the finger at everyone else and saying they've got the problem.

Yeah.

So it comes out as low regard for others. So in relation, how does that, how's that relevant to relationship management? Well, if you look at those scales such as trust instead of being over trusting of other people, which is the low self regard, you'd be mistrusting of other people. Yeah. Almost suspicious, doubting their capability, questioning what they can do. Another scale of course is conflict handling.

Yep.

If you're coming from the what we call the critic position. I'm okay. It's you that's got the problem. You're going to probably come across as quite aggressive.

Yeah. So you dig your heels in with your view, your perception of stuff.

Yeah.

And fight that. That corner.

Yeah. And you can look at all the, all these, what we call multi scales or rebound scales. The ones that have too much and too little.

Yeah.

You'll find if you're in the critic position, one side of that tends to come out. It's the red. It's one side of the red zone. So you'd be over dependent on others, over optimistic about what you can do, over aggressive emotionally under control, possibly mistrusting. So all those kind of things. And it comes also out in the self management scales because you'd probably be low on flexibility if you're critical of others. Why should I fit in with you? Why would I be aware of you? Yeah. Why should I even pay attention to your needs? So these, and on the other side of course is low self regard. The submissive position as it's called is quite the opposite. Over trusting, dependent, passive, not putting your own needs forward and so forth. And that's why these, these two positions are so important when we understand rigid defensive behaviors around self manager and relationship management.

Yeah. So people knee jerk to their natural response because it is linked quite solidly in their life positions.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that's the way they run. So they're used to running that pattern of behavior.

Yeah. And they are comfort zones as well because they remember defenses are there to keep it, to protect us temporarily at least. They make us feel better about ourselves. They, they take us away from the fear and the pain that we, we had. You know, maybe I'm not good enough or people aren't going to like me or I'm going to be humiliated. Whatever underlying reason. That's why these behaviors, why they come out in the, in the 16 different areas of emotional intelligence.

Yeah. And it's interesting that the self regard piece, I know we've spoken about all this already, Joe, but it is fundamentally the most critical piece of the equation. You know, it's sort of like the most important. So someone that scores pretty low on their self regard, you know, in my experience as a coach, they can be the tricky ones to get them to shift their self regard, you know, and grow it because it takes, it takes effort and they have to start feeling better about themselves to give themselves time, you know, to develop themselves, you know, so they believe everyone else is more important. So they don't. So it's a, it is a vicious cycle.

It is. And, and it gets reinforced very often when people complete a questionnaire. So somebody with low self regard is going to underrate themselves by definition.

Yes.

So the definition is they've scored themselves a two when really there are five or more. But they always see themselves as less worthy. Less. Okay.

Yes.

And so it worth reinforcing. If you start from that position, then you are underrating yourself.

Yeah.

Compared to. And you're also comparing yourself often with a norm group of many people who overrate themselves. Now overall those people probably balance each other out. But if you're in the under rating self then the chances are you should give yourself a couple more points. Yeah. Depending on your interpretation and where it goes in a coaching session. But all it does is you look through. I've got low self regard. Well, that's def. That's reinforced by looking at my personal power, my emotional resilience, flexibility. They're all low as well. So clearly I have got self. Low self regard. Yeah. It's a sort of, you know, self.

Fulfilling prophecy and it's, it is something that I create. The awareness for the individual that might score low on self regard. Is that actually. Yes, that, that will then have an impact on the rest of the way. You've scored all the other scales across the report. So it's about the conversation that we can have as opposed to here's your score. Don't get fixated on the score. You know, this is movable and, and as you've said, you know, it can change throughout the day. The life positions as you've said also are a little bit more fixed. So they're your default. So you perhaps go back to those. Yeah, but I have seen people shift their, you know, actually I and know and have seen people shift their scores significantly. You know, once they've had the awareness and once they've started doing things differently so. Thinking differently, behaving differently.

Yeah.

At getting different outcomes.

Absolutely. And it can be quite quick sometimes it can actually be a choice. Do you choose to have load? I know it sounds, but it almost self awareness is you're born okay, you're born a worthwhile human being. You are an okay worthwhile being. You just don't realize it yet.

Yes.

Yeah, that's, that's an assumption. But nobody knows. We just say it. We'll try it out. Just start with that assumption and maybe you're okay. Live with it for an hour or two or even a day and see if it's more useful to take that belief and adopt that belief.

Yeah.

It may be untrue, but there can. The one you have about yourself may also be untrue. We don't know scientifically what the truth is, but if it works for you, try it out a bit more often.

Yeah, yeah.

Try using, holding on to that long for longer.

I, I think that's a beautiful. I, I typically talk about is it helpful or is it hindering, is it hindering you or helping you? And I quite like that approach of okay, so try it on and see if it fits. You know, sort of put the glove on. Does it fit? Is it comfortable? And if it's not comfortable, you know, give it a whirl anyway because actually it might, you might get different results as a, as a result of trying a different approach to the whole thing.

And it brings up the question of why, why have we chosen. Assuming we've kind of chosen this unconsciously very often at a time in our life, maybe when we're life was going badly, we're being bullied or things didn't work out. Why would you have chosen low self regard? Why do you have chosen to be not okay now again, try it out. I'm not saying I know this, but would there be any reason for it? You know, we are, our brains are quite logical. Well, they are really. There's a payoff for it. Yeah. So the reason I criticize myself or put myself down or don't take the front position and say, I mean, you know, not good enough, whatever it might be. At the time you started doing that, maybe at school you didn't get picked out for having to recite something because it was very embarrassing standing up in class.

Yeah.

Or you didn't want to be a leader because people might, you know, laugh at you or, or you didn't put yourself forward for being, you know, that, you know, going to parties or Meeting people because you didn't want to be rejected. There's often a. A reason we may not be aware of that throughout our life is kind of reinforced. So I've sort of chosen to avoid, for example, if it's that. That's that submissive position we're talking about. And it's. And maybe it's helped me avoid those awkward or difficult or risky situations. But now is the time in your life to try something different.

Yep. Yep.

And it works equally for the other side, of course, the person who's coming from the critic position. I'm okay. You've got the problem. All right, so those are equally just the same defense manifesting differently. So underneath it is, I'm not. Okay. I fear. I fear some kind of rejection by other people. I fear humiliation and not being good enough. So what I do is I become the chief executive or I become, you know, the most capable expert, or I put everyone else down to make sure I'm nobody. I don't have to listen to anybody else.

Yeah.

But either way, what. What these rigid, critical, defensive behaviors are doing is avoiding me having to get in touch with my own stuff. And they are, of course, toxic. And as Aristotle says, it's fine. The virtue is, the is. Is finding the balance between the extremes of. Of these behaviors, which takes us back to relationship management, which is why the middle point in these scales is what we're trying to attain in terms of emotional intelligence.

Yeah. So I. I like the red and the green way it's scored as well. Because actually, what you're looking for is less red, more green, so, you know, sort of dampening down the red scores. If you've scored high on the reds, then that's a. You know, it's almost like a visual representation of, okay, I'm crazy mistrusting. I need to dampen that down. I need to be more carefully trusting.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Because actually, interestingly, those. Those scales, when I'm coaching someone and they are mistrusting that. That leads them to not then delegate, you know, more effortlessly with people. So they.

They.

They mistrust. They mistrust, which means they will then do the task themselves because no one can do it as well as I can. And then they don't coach and don't develop that individual, and the individual gets stuck not being able to take on some more responsibility. So it's an interesting pattern that runs out. And then, of course, if you get the leader, that's over trusting. They'll. They'll give stuff to their. Their team members. And they're not capable because they're just over trusting them. You know, without any real evidence to say actually, you know, I, I, I know that you've got the experience to do this and you know, and check in with them, they just, you know, chuck it at them and, and then they come back with not, you know, the wrong result that the leader wants.

Yeah. I mean trust is a great example, isn't it, of people getting it, trying to find that, that balance between the two ends of the pole. And people will. And this is the, you know, gives a good example again of, of people aren't just at one end or the other. They often rebound from one. Because what happens when people over trust people?

Yeah, you know, they, they get stitched up because the, the task doesn't get done. So then they, then, so then they mistrust.

Yeah. Once been twice shy.

Exactly.

This is the, this is the inevitability almost of overplaying one side. And why do I over trust people? Because I'm a nice, I like to be a nice person. I'm a, I'm a coach. We do our kind of thing and often say with trust, you know, we find a lot of people in our line of work, the helping professions particularly are over trusting.

Oh yeah.

But at a cost.

No, I'm definitely over trusting. Yeah. Well you've seen my scales, Joe. I'm a 10 on over trusting. It's so like that stitched me up a number of times in a professional context and also personal context as well. So.

Yeah, but there's a, you know, there is a way out of it and you know, of course being, being aware of it first of all.

Yeah.

And you know, again, self regard, recognizing actually your interests matter and, and I think as a coach you'll recognize, you know, that the point of coaching people is not just to be their mate.

Exactly.

Nice. If they like you, it's nice. But you want respect. You want somebody, you want to be coached with somebody who's prepared to challenge you. But coaching people is not just to be their mate.

Exactly.

It's nice if they like you, it's nice. But you want respect. You want somebody, you want to be coached with somebody who's prepared to challenge you but always be have your, your interests at heart. Unconditional regard for you is how Carl Rogers described it. As for the, for the therapist, it's unconditional guard for their patient. Now it doesn't mean they're going to be saying everything they want them to say or agreeing with everything. But as Long as that comes across and I know fundamentally Jim wants the best for me, then I'm prepared for you to challenge me, not agree with everything I have to say.

Yeah.

Even come across as mistrusting if it's appropriate, always be have your, your interests at heart. Unconditional regard for you is how Carl Rogers described it as. For the, for the therapist, it's unconditional regard for their patient. Now it doesn't mean they're going to be saying everything they want them to say or agreeing with everything, but as long as that comes across and I know fundamentally gym and it's a tough thing to do because often if, if mistrusting is coming across because you are low regard for others, then it's maladaptive. Yeah. But if it's coming across alongside high regard for others, you care about the other person, you have compassion for them, then that mistrust is quite acceptable. You know, wants the best for me, then I'm prepared for you to challenge me, not agree with everything I have to say.

Yeah.

Even come across as mistrusting if it's appropriate. And it's a tough thing to do because often if mistrusting is coming across because you are low regard for others, then it's maladaptive.

Yeah.

You're just checking things out, you're questioning your assumptions about somebody, you're listening to your intuition is this, does this stick? Hang together?

Yeah.

And if it does, great move on.

I like that term actually. I've not heard you talk about unconditional regard before because of course we, we're conscious of unconditional love.

But if it's coming across alongside high regard for others, you care about the other person, you have compassion for them, then that mistrust is quite acceptable. You know, you're just checking things out, you're questioning your assumptions about somebody, you're listening to your intuition is this, does this stick hang together?

Yeah.

And if it does, great move on.

But unconditional regard is, it puts a more professional slant on it, which is I'm coming from a. My intention is to support and help you and help you grow and I quite like that. Yeah, I, I like, I like that term. Actually. I've not heard you talk about unconditional regard before because of course we, we're conscious of unconditional love. But unconditional regard is, it puts a more professional slant on it, which is I'm coming from a. My intention is to support and help you and help about it.

In the paper I wrote on an attitude based model of Emotional intelligence. And that's where this whole theory comes from. I can give you the link. It's a free download journal paper, Frontiers paper, an attitude based journal model of emotional intelligence, of course, differing from a personality help you grow.

And I quite like that.

Yeah, I talk about it in the paper I wrote on an attitude based model of emotional intelligence. And that's where this whole theory comes from. I can give you the link. It's a free download journal paper, Frontiers paper. An attitudes model or an ability based model of emotional intelligence. And that's where we're talking about unconditional positive regard, which is a concept Carl Rogers, you know, just defined, has been evolved over the last 40, 50, 60 years. Really. And you know, is represented by, by this, this approach we've taken as well. Not just unconditional positive regard for others, but unconditional positive regard towards yourself. Of course.

Yeah, yeah.

If you unpack each of those words, you know, they're each very important.

It speaks to the whole concept of the awareness model, you know, awareness of my intention. So I'm aware of my intention when I'm speaking with you, but I'm not actually sure how it's landing with you. So the conversation we're having, I'm not sure. So the only way we can clarify all those things is to ask, you know, and, and check. So, you know, all that, that stuff gets missed in communication personally and also professionally and, and we go around the roundabout, you know, thinking, oh, I should have said that or what did they mean by what they said? You know, and, and that's where a lot of, you know, we were talking earlier about the conflict stuff. That's where a lot of the conflict issues come up is misinterpreting the, the person's intention.

And not wanting to offend people. I, I presume certainly in, you know. Yeah, the British culture, I believe is, you know, we, we have certain protocols and ways of communicating things. You do and don't say.

Yeah, stiff upper lip comes to mind as soon as you say that, you know.

Yeah. Or not. Not offending people tread on eggshells is the phrase. But all of this can lead to, you know, miscommunication and that kind of avoidance which also creates later. These things don't go away. They sort of faster and grow into bigger, you know, you know, escalate. They can become unresolved issues.

Yeah, people tend to sort of catalog. I mean, I'm not particularly great at memorizing stuff that I tend to let stuff go typically. So I, I can't Seem to catalog stuff. If I'm in an argument, I say, yeah, but the other week, Joe, you said this and all that and you know, and blah, blah, blah.

That's probably what makes you such an easy person to be with, Jim, because you're not what they used to call them, stamp collecting. Yeah. You're not looking to hold grudges against people and, you know, you kind of forgotten about the bad stuff. Well, hopefully, yeah.

Typically I, I play that way. I mean, you know, I suppose there are. I will come across situations where I think, oh, okay, you know, just to have a bit of a poke, you might say something that you do recall. But I typically don't hang on to that stuff. You know that. Because it doesn't really serve you.

No, no. So I suppose we've been talking indirectly about trust and yes, I think we've mentioned quite a lot about it. You know, it is a. The first scale on the relationship management ones that demonstrates too much and too little.

And trust is such a critical aspect of any relationship, whether it's an intimate relationship or a professional one. And Lencioni's model, which you're familiar with that, the foundation level of his, you know, five levels of dysfunction. The first level is trust and, and talking about trust. The, you know, a simple exercise for a leader or someone to think about is if you're in a, even in a personal relationship, you know, it might be useful for someone to think about their relationship and if they have got trust issues, write down some of the things that are destroying trust. So what sort of things is. Is my partner doing that's destroying trust with us? And what sort of things could they be doing to improve trust? You know, to build trust. So, you know, typically if I've got a leadership team together and I, I know you've done similar exercises as well, where you get, you know, split the team in half. One, one group will work on what. What are the things that is destroying trust within our team at the moment? What sort of behaviors are being displayed, exhibited, played out. That is destroying trust. And then the other group work on what are the things that we can be doing to build trust. And then they swap around and add to the list, etc, but it's a really, really powerful exercise to do and creates. And what we're talking about is obviously creating more awareness.

Yeah.

Around how to, you know, navigate towards a better place called trust.

And is there a common theme of what, you know, what undermines trust and what builds trust?

Yeah, there's some typical sneaky, conniving Behaviors. So, you know, in. In the room, we're all sat there saying, yes, we agree with this is what we're going to go and do. And then. So the thing that immediately destroys trust is the corridor conversations post the meeting that says, you know, what an idiot. What. What are they thinking? You know, there's no way I'm going to be doing that. You know, or they agree and one of the leaders in that team will then go off to his team and say, there's no way we're gonna, you know, you know, they've agreed this, but we're not going to do this, you know, so. So those sort of things reminds me.

Of that cartoon, Jim, where the chief executive is presenting to everybody around the board table and they're all doing what you're doing now.

Exactly.

In agreement. And then you've got bubbles in their head saying, I love that for bed.

Yeah.

Can't wait to get out of this room.

Yeah.

What's that? What are they on about?

I'll share that because I think it's such a power. I still use that slide, actually. I think, you know, pigs Might fly is one of the bubbles, you know, and there's no way, you know, no way. Yeah.

They're going like, yes.

And what we're talking about is obviously creating more awareness.

Yeah.

Around how to, you know, navigate towards a better place called trust.

And is there a common theme of what, you know, what undermines trust and what builds trust?

Yeah, there's some typical sneaky, conniving behaviors. So, you know, in. In the. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely agree. Idiot.

I mean, some of the workshops we've done before, Jim, are around improving openness in groups.

Yes.

Which is a, you know, very threatening thing for many people. How open do you want me to be?

Yeah, of course. And that's. That's the challenge, isn't it? So trust gets eroded when. If you chip in, if you are being vulnerable and trying to be open when the boss then dinks you on the head for, you know, that, or everyone looks at you in the room and says, you know, like what?

Yeah. So we often talk about going beyond blame as a level of openness, because I think sometimes, if you really want me to tell you what I think, I'll tell you what I think.

Yes.

And it's offloading of, you did this, you did that. And we talk about. Okay, we'll take it further. So how does that. How do you feel? Well, that makes me feel very upset and angry. You make room.

We're all sat there saying, yes, we agree with this is what we're going to go and do. And then. So the thing that immediately destroys trust is the corridor conversations. Post the meeting that says, you know, what an idiot, what happened?

We feel like I'm no good at my job. And that's a different level of truth.

What are they thinking, you know, there's no way I'm going to be doing that, you know, or they agree and.

I feel upset and yeah, I'm just angry. Okay, let's talk about. These are the feelings and what, what are your fears? What, you know, underneath that maybe if something about me I start thinking, maybe I do feel I'm, I'm not good enough. Or I worry that that's, you know, or I worry that I can't get on with you and I can't, we can't build a relationship here. Now we're getting to a different level of conversation that we can actually start trying to resolve things.

Yeah.

If you don't get beyond that sort of name calling, blaming level of openness, then it is difficult. And that's what people, that's sort of the, the red zone in the sandwich, if you like that. If you can't get beyond it, it is going to create conflict and that's what people try to avoid. So they stay on this superficial level of largely pretending, avoidance, distortion, whatever it is, and, and often passive aggressive.

One of the leaders in that team will then go off to his team and say, there's no way we're going to, you know, you know, they've agreed this, but we're not going to do this, you know, so, so those sort.

Of things reminds me of that cartoon, Jim, where the chief executive's presenting to everybody around the board table and they're all doing what you're doing now.

Exactly.

In agreement and then behavior. So I might not tell you, but I'll go, I won't do it or I'll do it badly or I'll tell all my colleagues not to help you. So all of this really does undermine, you know, productivity. Of course.

Yeah.

In the workplace.

Yeah. And Lancy and he also talks about the, the scale of trust. So, you know, there is this thing called trust, but he talks about vulnerability based trust, which is what you've been talking about.

Yeah.

And also the other end of that is destructive trust. So the destructive trust is some of the behaviors that we've already been talking about, you know, so the, the corridor conversations.

Yeah.

Not, not delivering. When you've said you were going to do something. So that's sort of also a roads trust but vulnerability based trust is very different and it'll, and, and it needs, it requires the individual to be vulnerable, to be open, to be able to speak their truth and the boss to also encourage that because you're not going to get to that space of vulnerability based trust. So the leader has to.

You've got bubbles in their head saying I love that.

Yeah.

Can'T wait to get out of this room. What's that? What are they on about?

I'll share that because I think it's such a power. I still use that slide actually. I think, you know, pigs might fly is one of the bubbles, you know and there's no way, you know, no way.

Yeah, they're all going like that.

Be that example of vulnerability based trust.

Yes.

You know, to encourage it, to nurture it within the team.

It's creating a climate where people feel that they can, they can be, they can be more open maybe than they, they normally are.

Yeah.

Without it's psychological safety, you know.

Exactly.

I was concept of.

Exactly. I was just thinking that as, as you were saying. I was thinking, yeah. This is the psychological safety that you and I will look to create when we're working either one on one or one with a group of people to make sure that they feel safe to be able to articulate what they want to articulate. And of course this all then speaks to if they aren't speaking their truth. If I'm the leader and I'm thinking okay, we're all heading in the same direction. But actually if, if I've not been. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely agree.

Idiot. I mean some of the workshops we've done before, Jim, are around improving openness in groups.

Yes.

Which is a, you know, very threatening thing for many people. How open do you want me to be?

Yeah, of course. And that's, that's the challenge, isn't it? So trust gets you in vulnerable and not being able to share where I am, even if I'm a couple of percent off compared to everyone else over time that's going to be a long way off. And that's why it's really important that we are all on the same page.

Yeah. You know, so I mean one of the ways we start this process through emotional intelligence is, is helping people sort of talk about feelings which again nowadays is more acceptable than it was when we started 20 odd years ago. Yeah. So going into a boardroom of engineers and saying right, get your shoes off, we're gonna, you know, sit on bean bags and discuss how we're feeling. Yeah, but we did it. The way we did it actually was we'd say, well, we're gonna. We got a score from Roded.

When if you chip in, if you are being vulnerable and trying to be open.

Zero to nine. And I want you to put yourself on which number are you and oh, okay, I'm a five.

Yeah, yeah.

On sort of happiness or enthusiasm, whatever. So give them a.

When the boss then doinks you on the head for, you know, that or everyone looks at.

Given the, the method that they buy into. And then you can, you know, people are happy to do this stuff.

You in the room, it says, you know, like what?

Yeah, you know. So we often talk about going beyond blame as a level of openness because I think sometimes. Well, if you really want me to anyways, you know, we. I think I've maybe we may have talked about previous one podcast, but the emotions wheel.

Yes.

Where.

Yeah.

We talked about the intensity of emotions and the valence. Is it positive or negative? And there's a very simple framework, James Russell's framework from the 1980s, which shows the different quadrants of how. How our emotions come out. And once people get that model, they can quickly place themselves. And this is really important because feelings aren't good or bad, right or wrong. You can't say, oh, no, you don't feel that way. That's not right. It's not an opinion. It's not a thought. It's not questionable. Everyone owns their own feelings.

So, yeah.

As long as they are feelings. People often talk about feelings. Tell you what I think. I'll tell you what I think.

Yes.

And it's, it's the offloading of sort of, you did this, you did that. And we talk about, okay, we'll take it further. So how does I feel? That's wrong. That's not a feeling. That's. Yeah, that's a thought.

That's a judgment.

Yeah, that is that. How do you feel? Well, that makes me feel very upset and angry. You made the judgment. Yeah, I feel upset by what you said. Yeah. Okay. You can feel upset. You know, that's. I now know where you're coming. But this builds a communication education that is. Is less judging me, feel like I'm no good at my job. And that's a different level of truth. Judgmental and more we, you know, if you set it up in the right way in the group, you create openness, you create trust. And because people say, okay, what are you Upset about.

Yeah.

Now we're getting into a conversation and it's a way in to those in a safe way.

No, I like, I like that. I like that a lot. Especially encouraging the. Okay, so it's almost like forensically trying to analyze. Okay, so where's that come from? You know, what's that about? What's the evidence for that? You know, give me some examples of where this has shown up and why you might be feeling that.

Yeah.

You know, and then you're getting to the issue because then, you know, you could as a leader or a team member, you can then put your finger on. Ah, now I see why I feel.

Upset and yeah, you know, I was angry. Okay, let's talk about. These are the feelings and I've upset.

You and, and, and you're having those thoughts and feelings.

You know, what, what are your fears? What you know, underneath that maybe if something about me, I think maybe I do feel I'm. I'm not good enough or I worry that that's, you know, or I worry that.

Yeah.

And remember we talk about feelings beneath behaviors beneath performance. So if there's a performance issue like, you know, it could be in. I can't get on with you and I can't. We can't build a relationship here. Now we're getting to a different level of converse individuals. Ultimately, performance leads to, in business terms, poor productivity and poor profitability. And so why, why is it not working? Well, let's look at performance. Let's look at. But feelings are driving these behaviors.

Yeah.

So if you really want to understand why the behaviors aren't meeting the needs of the business, you know, you need to sometimes stop, slow down and say, well, this is people. How people are feeling, quite honestly. And unless you can change this emotional climate, it's not going to get better. It's probably going to get a lot worse.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that is often the source to then shifting behaviors, what they call culture. How do we do things around here? And that will ultimately lead to changes in productization that we can actually start trying to resolve things.

Yeah.

If you don't get beyond that sort of name calling, blaming level of openness, then it is difficult and that's activity and performance, which is what we're trying to achieve. But unless you're prepared to go back to the emotional intelligence level, often it's unresolvable and you're, and I see, see it a lot people that's as of the, the red zone in the sandwich, if you like, all the time in organizations creating Competency frameworks as a way of controlling behaviors.

Yeah.

And if you can't get beyond it, it is going to create conflict and that's what people try to avoid. So they stay on this super. All you do is spend enormous amount of human resource and business effort trying to control people to do things they don't want to do because they don't feel engaged, motivated, loyal, whatever it is.

Or have much choice around it or.

To the autonomy, control. There's lots of emotional needs that aren't being met that we discussed early on. The emotional needs that people have. We need a sense of autonomy, volition, meaning. Yeah, empathy, control, whatever the. If these things aren't being met, it's going to end up with problems in your business and it's only so long. And you see, dare I say, in the public sector, you know, they spend their entire huge level of largely pretending, avoidance, distortion, whatever it is, and, and often passive aggressive, billions of pounds of money trying to resolve it at the sort of competency and control area of behavior. So I might not tell you, but I'll go, I won't do it or I'll do it badly, or I'll tell all this without getting beneath the course. And trust is a very fine example of, of where that can, you know, manifest my colleagues, not to help you. So all of this really does undermine.

It's the core. It's the, you know, talk about it in. I go back to Lencioni's model, it's the foundation. So if you haven't got trust, you then can't have healthy conflict, which then has an impact on commitment, which then has an impact on accountability, which then finally has an impact on the results, as you spoke about. So it is fundamentally the. The trumps, you know, if you've got an issue anywhere, so if the results aren't there, then fundamentally it will always wiggle its way back down to trust.

Yeah, yeah, trust. I'd align that to openness. It's. Yeah, they're kind of very close concepts, aren't they?

Yeah.

And. And then you kind of got awareness because how can you be open if you're not aware?

Yeah, no, you've got to have that. So the. It's the dialogue, isn't it? So the open, honest dialogue that allows trust to grow and thrive, you know, because if trust is high, then everything else should come as a result of it. So you should then be able to have healthy conflict, not destructive conflict. And you should be able to have, you know, full. You should be able to commit fully and also take personal responsibility for stuff instead of blaming everybody, etc. Which will then lead to better results.

Yeah. And still. And coming back to yourself as well, sort of. I think the trust thing is it's about you and me and our relationship. Yes, it is. That's how it's playing out. But maybe I've got my stuff going on, you've got your stuff going on and maybe if we can both get to a little bit beneath that sort of. Well, I don't like being, you know, excluded from events. You don't like it when other people try to take control of you.

Yeah.

And actually if we understand that then we can see where there's a bit of conflict created. Mistrust, possibly and other other things. So sometimes we need to get into our own stuff a little bit to understand how it's playing out in our relationship. And actually just being more open, listening, finding out how you're feeling is a doorway in. First of all, you listen to how I'm feeling and say why do you feel like that? Well, I don't think you trust me or I don't. I think you try to control me all the time, whatever. Then we can start resolving issues saying you did this to, you know, productivity. Of course.

Yeah.

In the workplace.

Yeah. And Lencieny also talks about the, the scale of trust. So you know, there is this thing called trust. But he talks about vulnerability based trust, which is what you've been talking about.

Yeah.

And also the other end of that is destructive trust. So the destructive trust is some of the behaviors that we've already been talking about. You know, so the, the corridor conversations.

Yeah.

Not, not delivering when you've said you were going to do something. So that's sort of also a roads trust. But vulnerability based trust is very different and it'll, and, and me yesterday, you know, and it's, it's interesting because actually that's one of the things I talk to individuals and also teams about is the fact that actually this stuff is easy to do, it's just easier not to. And, and, and what gets in the way of it's easy to do, it's just easier not to is time. So they don't invest the time to have the conversation. So lots of organizations struggle to set aside time for the senior team to get together and develop themselves and have those conversations. So all this stuff has, has to. There's no way it needs, it requires the individual to be vulnerable, to be okay. It can get better without us as a team discussing stuff.

Yes.

And even to be able to speak their truth. And the boss to also encourage you if that time isn't in the diary because they're so busy and they're focused on results.

Yeah.

They're sort of almost on a treadmill. Just running on a treadmill. Staying that. Because you're not going to get to that space of vulnerability based trust. So the leader has to staying in the same space.

Yeah. And we find this on workshops, you.

Know, getting by to be that example of vulnerability based trust.

Yes, yes.

You know, to encourage it to.

Into oh a day out the office or even two days or go further and resolve all what's going on in this team over to three. But it can be playing out for years and years and years and enormous amount of costs. Never mind people resigning. And I mean it's interesting hearing the stuff about the, the COVID inquiry at the moment and Boris Johnson saying, well this is all part of politics and you know, there's a lot of, you know, push and shoving and yes, conflict is good as, as well as destructive if it's not managed properly. But this is happening, playing out in every organization and nurture it within the team. It's creating a climate where people feel that they can. The emotional intelligent organization I would describe as one that is adaptive and responsive and can have constructive conflict and it's a difficult place to get to. But on your point of time, Jim, you know, if you can, if they can be. They can be more open maybe than they.

Yeah.

They normally are.

Yeah.

Without. If you can dedicate a little bit of time to addressing this stuff and working it through. I've. It's psychological safety, you know.

Exactly.

I was concept of.

Exactly. I was just thinking that seen it.

Have massive benefits in the long term. Massive. Yeah.

As, as you were saying. I was thinking. Yeah. This is the psychological safety that you and I.

Because people use this and it's, it's hit them at a deeper level than just doing a skills workshop.

Oh for sure. I mean I've, I've also seen it as well. I've, I, you know, people spring to mind that are great leaders that have done the work, you know, with their team, you know. So, you know, I typically Recommend at least 2 days per quarter with a leadership team so that can discuss this stuff, you know, so that they can unpack it and, and have those sessions facilitated. So the, the CEO or the leader of that team is not trying to facilitate it. There's an outside, you know, getting the outside help in. I will look to create when we're working either one on one or one with a group of people to make sure, you know, what was the. Sure that they feel safe to be able to articulate what they want to articulate.

Yeah. And of course, about conflict resolution.

Yeah. No, I think it was how the mighty fall. That's right.

Yeah.

How the mighty fall. And of course, this all then speaks to, if they aren't speaking their truth, organizations, how organizations, big organizations, end up falling. And it's because of hubris, because they think they're too big and they can't fail.

Yeah.

And yeah, you need. If I'm the leader and I'm thinking, okay, we're all heading in the same direction, but actually if, if I've not been, you need the external help in that complacency.

I mean, my mind was wandering off to all sorts of big global issues at the moment. You know, I was thinking about Gaza and, you know, the Israel, Palestine conflict. And not, I'm not by any means thinking of, you know, a way forward. Just, just trying to understand how this is where Myers Briggs came in originally after the First World War. Isabel Myers, Catherine Briggs was saying, well, why is it that nations don't get on? Why are the world wars happening?

And not saying this, being vulnerable and not being able to share where I am, even if I'm a couple of.

Percent off, there's a solution, but it's a way forward to understand human differences.

Yeah.

And if you can recognize that people are different and have different needs, emotional needs, and this is a bit of listening to what those are. You know, the IRA conflict went on.

For decades compared to everyone else over time, that's going to be a long way off.

And that's why it's in the United Kingdom. Eventually it was, you know, almost resolved as it is today, largely because they were prepared to sit down, say sit down.

Some simple, pretty important that we are all on the same page.

Yeah. You know, so I mean, one of the ways we default. But yeah, get beneath the surface a bit more. And they apply a lot of these models to start this process through emotional intelligence. It's helping people sort of talk about resolution, whether it's global politics or whether it's in the boardroom. But what we're talking about here with these process around emotional intelligence, getting into feelings that drive behavior, performance. It's the same thing, essentially.

Yeah.

Because people really are people. It doesn't matter whether it's, you know, global wars or whether it's you and me having a. Having feelings, which again, nowadays is more acceptable than it was when we started 20 odd years ago. Yeah. So going into a boardroom of engineers and saying right. A tiff about something, it's still a human condition that's not working out. And some of this stuff can make very profound differences. Either that or it just lingers for years and years and you know, all too often it does. And those, those are the businesses that don't fail, that fail because they're not prepared to sort of address the. This time, get your shoes off. We're gonna, you know, sit on beanbags and discuss how we're feeling. Yeah, but we did it. The way we did it actually was we'd say well we're gonna, we gotta score from the stuff.

Yeah, yeah. And you're, you're so, so bang on Joe, in terms of which I'd expect you to be anyway. But the feelings piece is the piece that is the bit that makes the difference, you know and think, you know, you. I like your description and it's probably better for you to articulate it because I always probably get tongue twisted with the wording. But the you know, thinking about your feelings.

Yeah. It takes us back, doesn't it to the original definition of emotional intelligence which is you know, intelligent use of your M.O. or thinking about what's going on for you. Zero to nine and I want you to put yourself on which number are you and oh okay, I'm up you and recognizing that in other people.

Yeah.

But it also works the other way where you come at five.

Yeah, yeah.

On sort of happiness or enthusiasm, whatever. So give them a. Can actually intuitively sense whether a thought is the right thing. It's taking the right direction. This is getting to the micro level of what's going on for us. The self awareness piece if you want an awareness given the, the method that they buy into and then you can, you know, people are happy to do this stuff of others piece but I think you know, just thinking of time now Jim, we've anyways, you know, we. You. I think I've maybe may have talked about previous talk about quite a lot of really relevant stuff in terms of application and how relationship management trust. We were going to talk about more on this podcast but I think this is open up all sorts of interesting topics around that theme of relationship management simply by looking at one, one concept of trust and how we can get very defensive and I think we really only picked up on mistrust here. But there's also the over trusting side which pick up another time maybe.

Yeah, I mean I'm A great example of mistrusting. So we can.

I thought you were over trusting to one podcast, but the emotions wheel. Yes.

Yeah. Oh, no, sorry. Yeah. Over, over trusting. Sorry. Not mistrusting. Yeah.

Next to next podcast.

Very, very little mistrusting, actually. Yeah. Which gets me in trouble.

So we talked about the intensity of emotions and the valence. Is it positive or negative?

I've had to grow my carefully trusting scale. And actually, interestingly, you go back and.

There'S a very simple framework, James Russell's framework from the 1980s, which shows the different quadrants of how our emotions come out. Yeah.

To the whole point of, you know, it's about awareness. So I am aware that I'm over trusting. So I. I still maintain that that's not a bad approach to have as long as I'm aware that I'm over trusting. So I sort of rein myself back a little bit, you know, and this.

Is always the first step in the eyes. It noticing make recognizing, being aware. And then it gives you a little bit of choice if you can do it in the moment. So hang on, old habits coming in. Let's just. Let's just deal with this.

Yeah, yeah. No, I pre. I pre. I pre Think those things. I think. Okay, I know what I'm like. I know that this is my tendency, so I'll just need to sort of dampen myself down a little bit. So. Yeah.

Are you okay if we. We pause?

Yeah. I think this is. This is.

This is.

It's been delightful to jump.

And once people get that model, they can quickly place themselves and this is.

Really important into the relationship scales. The conversation we've had today. Hopefully our listeners will.

Because feelings aren't good or bad, right or wrong. You can't say, oh no, you don't feel that way.

Get some really good stuff so that they can now sort of apply. If I'll add the link in Joe, that you spoke about in terms of the paper that way.

That's not right. It's not an opinion, it's not a thought. It's not questionable. Everyone owns their own feelings. So.

Yeah.

As long as they are feelings. People often talk about feelings.

You wrote that mentions the unconditional regard stuff and. And I look forward to seeing you in a week or so's time for our next episode.

Yeah. Be post Christmas, at least for us. So.

Yeah, no, it will be for. For us for sure. So great to see you today, Joe. Thank you again for your knowledge and your wisdom that you bring to this space and have a great Christmas as well.

Yeah. I'll see you in 2024.

Whoa, whoa. Okay. Yeah, you. You will. You will.

Okay.

Okay. Cheers.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye. Bye.

Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Thank you for listening.

I feel that's wrong. That's not a feeling. That's. Yeah, that's a thought.

That's a judgment. Yeah. Remember to share and subscribe to the EI Guru podcast. And if you have any questions, the judgment.

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Judgmental and more we, you know, if you set it up in the right way in the group, you openness, you create trust. And because people say, okay, what are you upset about? Yeah, now we're getting to a conversation. And it's a way in those in a safe way.

No, I like, I like that. I like that a lot. Especially encouraging the. Okay, so it's almost like forensically trying to analyze. Okay, so where's that come from? You know, what's that about? What's the evidence for that? You know, give me some examples of where this has shown up and why you might be feeling that. Yeah, you know, and then you're getting to the issue because then, you know, you could, as a leader or a team member, you can then put your finger on. Ah, now I see why I've upset you. And, and you're having those thoughts and feelings, you know, so.

Yeah, and remember, we talk about feelings beneath behaviors beneath performance. So this is a performance issue. Like, you know, it could be individuals. Ultimately, performance leads to, in business terms, poor productivity and poor profitability. And so why. Why is it not working? Well, let's look at performance. Let's look at. But feelings are driving these behaviors.

Yeah.

So if you really want to understand why the behaviors aren't meeting the needs of the business, you know, you need to sometimes stop, slow down and say, well, this is people, how people are feeling, quite honestly. And unless you can change this emotional climate, it's not going to get better. It's probably going to get a lot worse.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that is often the source to then shifting behaviors, what they call culture. How do we do things around here? And that will ultimately lead to changes in productivity and performance, which is what we're trying to achieve. But unless you're prepared to go back to the emotional intelligence level, often it's unresolvable. And you're. And I see, see it all the time in organizations creating competency frameworks as a way of controlling behaviors.

Yeah.

And all you do is spend enormous amount of human resource and business effort trying to control people to do things they don't want to do because they don't feel engaged, motivated, loyal, whatever it.

Is, or have much choice around it.

Or to the autonomy, control. There's lots of emotional needs that aren't being met that we discussed early on. The emotional needs that people have. We need a sense of autonomy. Vol. Meaning empathy, control, whatever the. If these things aren't being met, it's going to end up with problems in your business.

Yeah.

It's only so long. And you see, dare I say, in the public sector, you know, they spend their entire huge billions of pounds of money trying to resolve it at the sort of competency and control areas without getting beneath the cause. And trust is a very fine example of. Of where that can, you know, manifest.

It's the core, it's the talk about it in. I go back to Lancione's model, it's the foundation. So if you haven't got trust, you then can't have healthy conflict, which then has an impact on commitment, which then has an impact on accountability, which then finally has an impact on the results, as you spoke about. So it is fundamentally the. The Trump's, you know, if you've got an issue anywhere, so if the results aren't there, then fundamentally it will always wiggle its way back down to trust.

Yeah, yeah, trust. I'd align that to openness. It's. They're kind of very close concepts, aren't they?

Yeah.

And. And then you kind of got awareness because how can you be open if you're not aware?

Yeah, no, you've got to have that. It's the dialogue, isn't it? So the open, honest dialogue that allows trust to grow and thrive, you know, because if trust is high, then everything else should come as a result of it. So you should then be able to have healthy conflict, not destructive conflict. And you should be able to have, you know, full. You should be able to commit fully and also take personal responsibility for stuff instead of blaming everybody, etc. Which will then lead to better results.

Yeah. And still coming back to yourself as well, sort of. I think the trust thing is. It's about you and me and our relationship. Yes, it is. That's how it's playing out. But maybe I've got my stuff going on, you've got your stuff going on, and maybe we can both get to a little bit beneath that, so. Well, I don't like being, you know, excluded from events. You don't like it when other people try to take control of you.

Yeah.

And actually if we understand that, then we can see where there's a bit of conflict created. Mistrust, possibly, and other other things. So sometimes we need to get into our own stuff a little bit to understand how it's playing out in our relationship. And actually just being more open, listening, finding out how you're feeling is a doorway in. First of all, you listen to how I'm feeling and say, why do you feel like that? Well, I don't think you trust me or I think you try to control me all the time, whatever. Then we can start resolving issues. You did this to me yesterday, you.

Know, and it's, it's interesting because actually that's one of the things I talk to individuals and also teams about is the fact that actually this stuff is easy to do, it's just easier not to. And, and, and what gets in the way of it's easy to do, it's just easier not to is time. So they don't invest the time to have the conversation. So lots of organizations struggle to set aside time for the senior team to get together and develop themselves and have those conversations. So all this stuff has, has to. There's no way it can get better without us as a team discussing stuff.

Yes.

And, and if you, if that time isn't in the diary, because they're so busy and they're focused on results.

Yeah.

They're sort of almost on a treadmill, just running on a treadmill. Staying. Staying in the same space.

Yeah. And we find this on workshops, you know, getting buy into, oh, a day out the office or even two days, or go further and resolve all what's going on in this team over three. But it can be playing out for years and years and years and enormous amount of costs, never mind people resigning. And I mean, it's interesting hearing the stuff about the, the COVID inquiry at the moment and Boris Johnson saying, well, this is all part of politics and, you know, there's a lot of, you know, push and shoving and yes, conflict is good as, as well as destructive if it's not managed properly. But this is happening, playing out in every organization. And the emotional, intelligent organization, I would describe as one that is adaptive and responsive and can have constructive conflict. And it's a difficult place to get to. But on your point of time, Jim, you know, if you can, if you.