Episode8

Welcome to the EI Guru podcast, a podcast completely focused on emotional intelligence. Typically, the first question I get is what is emotional intelligence? In very simple terms, it's how we manage our emotions in our interactions with ourselves and others. Or put another way, it's being in the right state and, and not being in a state when under pressure. Emotional intelligence is another label for mindset, and we all know that when navigating those important conversations, we need to tap into our best. I'll be interviewing leaders and experts in this ever expanding field and sharing the data on why emotional intelligence is the difference that makes the difference in all of our relationships. Remember to share and subscribe to the EI Guru podcast and if you have any questions, you can post them once you've subscribed. So, good morning and welcome back to the latest episode of the EI Guru podcast. This is episode eight, and just to confuse you all, this is episode four with Joe and I talking about the EI overview and the model that Joe came up with. It's probably almost 30 years ago, I'm not sure exactly of the date and I'm, it's great because we've had a little bit of a break. Joe's been on holiday, I've been doing some stuff, I'm sneaking off on holiday at the end of this week. So Joe, let's just try and recap what we've covered so far and maybe just remind listeners to the EI framework, I suppose the six quadrants and then, and then cover off what we've covered in episode one, two and three together and then where we're heading today. So today we're going to be looking at the flexibility, scale, connecting with others and authenticity, which is a really interesting aspect of self management. So they're all in the self management scales. And then we're going to have a look at the, the business case for emotional intelligence. So I know you're going to refer to your white paper that you worked on sometime and published and I'm really keen to sort of get that out to create the awareness for leaders and people that aren't leaders that want to improve their emotional intelligence for the benefits of improving their emotional intelligence, because ultimately the data is overwhelming, that if you improve your emotional intelligence, you will get better results. So the, the information is there, you will get a return on investment. So organization should be absolutely focused on, this is the thing that makes the difference if you're looking to improve your performance. And especially, interestingly, especially, you know, when, when, when you're under pressure, when Organizations are under pressure and they're cutting the budget for this and stopping travel and, you know, all these other things, and they're looking to increase their bottom line. This is where it's really interesting. They, they tend to not develop their leaders and their, and their team members. And actually, this is the time when they should be doing that because this is the bit that will make a difference while they're trying to perform under pressure. So, anyway, it's a fairly long introduction, Joe, but if you can maybe sneakily cover off the six quadrants and, and then, and then cover off what we've covered, if that's okay.

Sure, yeah. And I was just thinking about what you're saying, Jim, about, you know, companies pull back a bit when there's commercial financial pressures. And in fact, that's the time you need to invest, of course, because society's changed a lot in the last 10 years and it's always changing. But that's what influences organizations to change, which influences the need for different leadership. So if you're not moving forward, you're going to get left behind, certainly in terms of leadership.

Yeah.

And just another thought as you're talking is I think emotional intelligence, as you said, it's been through about at least 30 years now of research, and I think of it as forming, storming, norming. Three, three stages when. Yeah, you know, back in the 90s, noughties in everyone, perhaps over overrated a little bit, the emotional intelligence pod potential. And then in the next decade there was a lot of academic criticism of it, but it's really the third decade that I think we've got our more substantial meta analytic research, which I'm going to talk a little bit about later. So I think it's really grown in maturity and now in a far better state to know what advantages and benefits we can draw from which are realistic and the added value of emotional intelligence to compare to other approaches. So I'll talk a bit about that later. As you say, we're working through the different facets of emotional intelligence based on the Emotional Intelligence Profile framework. It's an organizing model. And at the beginning, the first. Yeah, it's the fourth, you know, discussion we've had. And in the beginning we talked about what do we mean by emotional intelligence. Intelligent use of the emotions, being aware of your thoughts, feelings and behavior and your relationships and so forth. But how do you organize that information? That's where the framework comes in very neatly, as you know very well, Jim, and many of our listeners are very familiar with the instrument. But Even if you're not using the tool, I think the models are almost just as good. If you've got a good understanding of the theory and the background, then when you're coaching or working with an individual, then you can apply that. Whether or not you've got the questionnaire and the data behind you, that's just a sort of added bonus.

Yeah, I think one, yeah, you're, you're bang on actually. Because when I've worked with leaders and when, if you've unpacked and explored someone's results of their emotional intelligence questionnaire, it's really interesting because of course, once they've got a deepened insight into how it's shaped and how, and their own scores and how they've landed, it's much easier for them to start thinking, oh, yeah, I, you know, I think Joe must be, you know, such and such on self regard and he must have a higher regard for others sort of thing. So you can start calibrating where you think they might land.

And I remember Will Shuts is, you know, the father of a lot of this stuff, firo theory. And he would say the numbers are just there to provoke people, largely to get the conversation going. It's the conversation that really matters.

Yeah.

So at the early stages they're very, very valuable. At the later stages, the scores become less important to people and they kind of know where they are, they know how they're developing and the chances are they know that they performed at all levels of that scale. It isn't a fixed position.

Yeah.

Emotional intelligence is changeable, developable, which is a great thing. So we, we do know when we're in the grip of, you know, strong emotions, we're not managing them, then it's going to take us to a different position than when we're feeling at our best. But learning to manage that is the point of all of this. Learning to notice it, recognize it and manage it. And that's what the framework does because it breaks it down into the two areas, which is about myself, what's going on for me, managing that effectively and of course how that impacts on other people and being aware of that and understanding how other people impact on me, the relationship side. And as you'll know, there's arrows going between them. They actually go from left to right. So how I behave is going to impact know other people. But equally there is a reciprocal influence, of course. And we also break the framework into different levels or tiers. We describe the onion model and you peel off the outside layer. What you see isn't always what you're getting, you know, people, particularly when people are feeling anxious or defensive, it tends to bring out some more rigid behaviors, inflexibilities that actually are very unhelpful in the long run. They might help us feel better immediately like blaming other people or avoiding problems, but they don't deal with a long term solution. Which is why sometimes we have to go beneath behavior to understand where that's coming from. And often it's, it's embodied in our feelings which we can, which we, you know, if we, if we don't notice our feelings or other people's, then we're missing, you know, at least, well, I would say at least 50% of what's really going on for us. Thoughts, feelings and then the behaviors that come from that. And one way into that is through self awareness, noticing, slowing down and awareness of others. And that gives us a clue, it gives us an indication of why do I feel upset when this happens, when somebody ignores me when I'm not the center of attention, or why does I find it very anxious when I am the center of attention or when people don't think I'm very competent or, or they don't seem to care about me, or they care about me too much. All these things are going on, but this is where we get to the real core of the onion and we understand these are underlying patterns I refer to as attitudes about our self concept and these are really what drives us and these accumulated throughout our life. You don't need to get too heavy and psychological but it is useful to understand sometimes some of the things that are triggering me completely.

I really, of course I love the model and I've been using it for 20 odd years. So I'm sort of very biased when we have this conversation and it's just fascinating how it always tends to link back to. And as you said, you don't need to get too psychological about it in terms of blaming mum and dad. But actually so much of it is, I think the understanding of how it's been shaped really helps. You then start paying attention to it and saying, ah, okay, it's because of, you know, this when I was maybe younger, but actually that it alludes itself to. Okay, so there's choice about how I might navigate this in the future. Now I've got the awareness, I can now do something with it. But without the awareness you continue to run that same pattern. You know, you're stuck in it, you're stuck in that groove, you know, like a record player, you, you know, the old vinyls, you're stuck in that groove of just going over and over and over the same pattern all the time.

And instead of wearing down those grooves as a record, it embeds them. Yeah, it makes them more automated. Reflex response. We've come even less aware of it and we become actual experts at it. That's. That's the great thing. And the bad thing is we become so good at it, we don't even know we're doing it. And we manage somehow to create a world where we just about cope and. But we have to keep on doing this. These play out these rigid defensive patterns that actually create a lot of, you know, difficulties for other people and actually to ourselves because sooner or later it'll catch up with us.

Yeah.

So this is what we talk about when we referring to self regard. How do I feel towards myself? And when does that, you know, come out? And our regard for other people. And as you remember, we put those two facets together to form the, the attitude matrix or what's. What comes from the life positions. And those influence much of our behavior. What Carl Rogers called about unconditional positive regard, unconditional. And the point now is that it's not dependent on I must do this, I must do that. It's self acceptance. Self compassion is often the antidote to a lot of these difficulties, rigidities in our behavior that come out. So we're just looking at different levels. And the reason we break it into the different framework. You could just start with self regard, say it's all down to that, but that's a bit hard work to unpack. And that's what the questionnaire and the model does. It breaks into 16 different elements, which is what we've been working through, starting with the core self concept awareness scales. And we give various tools and techniques to help with that, such as the. The emotions wheel. You might remember we talked about positive negative affect.

No, the emotions wheel is such a powerful thing to get people to check in with. You know, I know you've run team leadership exercises and it's a great thing to just create the awareness of. Okay, so, you know, where are you as we, as we start today? You know, you know, the weekend's gone past. Where are you on this? You know, you've got a big week ahead of you. What sort of emotions are bubbling up to the surface for you? And, and I think it's a fantastic way of calibrating and just creating some awareness around the different. And how you, you sort of can go around on various parts of the day on that scale.

I think the challenge people often face with emotional intelligence is we've been so ingrained with personality tools which are a lot of thinking about our behavior but not being in the present moment. The great thing about this emotions wheel and focusing on feelings is it's very present. It's a, you know, what's been going on for you right now? Where are you at? How's that affecting you? And that's, that's what we've explored through the self awareness awareness. And then we've gone into the self management scales and you'll remember that there are six of these that are ordered in terms of their relation to self regard. So emotional resilience is the most prominent, followed by personal power, self determination, if you like, self choice and then goal directedness, knowing what you want, making it happen.

Yeah.

And we've got that far. Now we're going to move into the others on that, on that area. And particularly those self management scales I think are very relevant to self leadership if you like managing yourself and your own behavior to be effective. And often you find if you do that effectively, other people tend to feel more confident in you, tend to follow you. Now obviously it's a big other side which we haven't yet discussed about leadership, which is relationships.

Yeah.

But don't ignore the important part is starting from yourself.

Yeah, completely.

Right.

It's almost. It sort of beautifully dovetails into Gandhi's quote, you know, be the change you want to see in the world. So you have to do it first before you can then do it effectively with other people. So yeah, you need to be the example. I mean there was a. I think it's. Brene Brown talks about being an example of what good looks like. So, you know, so be that example yourself first and then go and you know, test that with. When you're working with other people and interacting with others, which is what these.

These scales are very much about. And they do obviously impact one thing we haven't really got into too much is the relationship between the different elements of the organizing framework helps to do that to some extent. But things like having personal power and let's say trust in other people, what would be the connection there? Does my sense of inner locus of control and sense of purpose help me to build trust in others or can it move it away from that? Those sort of blends, if they're managed effectively, can be very, very effective. And that's a sort of. I was talking to you earlier, Jim, about this being a sort of masterclass level of interpret.

Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think we will, you know, once we've gone through the 16 scales and shared that with our listeners, it would be great. We will definitely come back and do some master class stuff for people that want to go deeper still into this whole piece of managing yourself and, and working well with others. So yeah, you're right. I mean that, that was a thought that was bubbling up in my head was as you were talking about it. I find the self management scales so fascinating, you know, especially the influence that you're. If so typically, if someone's got a low self regard, it's not unusual for them to then not have a particularly high emotional resilience, for example. And also they may also lack a high personal power. And it's really, I find it so fascinating that that can then. So they can have a low emotional resilience and a low personal power, but their superpower is goal directedness, you know, so which helps them operate effectively. Or if they haven't got a high goal directedness, the scale that they then might sort of lean on significantly lean on is their flexibility, which we'll get into now. Joe. And about the flexibility scale because that can have an impact as well. So I, I find the whole thing, the interplay between the different scales is just really interesting.

So one of the things we did talk about before Jim was people focus immediately on their lower scale scores because we tend to focus on what's not working. And actually as a good coach, we want to help them to recognize the thing that is relative strength for them because that's going to be the resource to help them to deal with the thing that they find more difficult. Use that strength, such as goal directedness to work on your low emotional resilience and the ways of doing that. Of course.

Yeah, yeah, no, completely. So help, help the listeners understand the flexibility scale. So that's the, the next one that we'll be looking at on the, the self management scale. So this is your ability to flex when under pressure and adapt and change. If, if I'm right in terms of the label.

Yeah. We call it sort of capacity to adapt your thoughts and behaviors to changing circumstances. So I say capacity because it doesn't mean, and this seems to be a fad nowadays that people should always be changing and change is always good. And we're not saying that, we're saying the capacity to adapt yourself appropriately is. I certainly some colleagues in the past who have been. I'm not that change oriented. Other people aren't. There's Nothing right or wrong. Some people aren't something aren't. But can you change when it's necessary? Or other people who are, who are just compulsively driven not to do the same thing again, they get bored very easily. For example. Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't having good flexibility, but this is a great example, Jim, of combining scales where maybe what you're lacking is the goal, directedness, seeing things through. So this capacity to change is very important.

And it's also, and when we're, when we're talking about flexibility, I'm just chuckling in internally, so I've got to share it. Flexibility is not you going to a yoga or a Pilates cast. It's about your, your mental capacity to flex and pivot. You know, your, your view and the way you, you're approaching things. So I always find it funny when we talk about flexibility. I always sort of end up, you know, stretching my leg and saying it's not about being physically flexible that I suppose that could come into it in, in some.

It's a good point because sometimes, you know, I've, I've lived and breathed these, these constructs for a very long time. You stop questioning them. You just assume everyone sees them the way you do. And yes, of course, they're probably giggling all the way along while I'm talking about this stuff. Thanks for bringing that up.

No, no, no, it's just, it's just a nuance of mine. I, you know what I'm like, I'm a, I'm. No, I'm childlike around some of this stuff, Joe, so. But it is, it's about your ability to flex and pivot and adapt. And adapt.

You know, we've, I don't know if you've seen the resilience model of change that relates to the EI framework, but we've talked about four stages and the second stage is very much, you know, you respond to change with adversity, with low self regard, low regard, I think feeling dreadful. The next stage is very much around adaptation to your circumstances, which is this one. And it's learning to accept, to recognize what's going on. Not necessarily sort it all out. That's other might be personal power, but it's not moving on too quickly. It's sometimes just sitting with yourself and learning to be okay with it and getting yourself prepared, recovering a little bit and then getting ready for the next stage. So flexibility comes in a lot when it's about dealing with setbacks and adversity and in Fact, a lot of adversity is created by a lack of flexibility. So often what we do is we overplay our strengths. So I always start, you know, becoming very authoritarian or something. And actually what I need to do is back off. Or it may be that you're a person who just backs off all the time and really you need to take, be a bit more assertive in those circumstances. So moving outside of your comfort zone is a big aspect of flexibility.

Right? Okay. Yeah.

But the challenge, of course, of moving outside your flexibility, your comfort zone is it feels uncomfortable, of course. And then you're talking about self regard. Oh, I'm going to make a fool of myself. I'm going to be humiliated. People aren't going to like me. All these unconscious, you know, we talked about the core of the union. This kind of stuff starts preventing us doing the flexibility stuff and we start making excuses. Oh, I just don't do those things. I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert or I'm this, I'm that, or people won't like me. So we, we protect ourselves from even having to go there. And that change in coaching development is a big aspect of, of this FaceTime.

I, I'm laughing again internally because I'm thinking about myself and applying. You know, when I scored myself, you know, my, my goal directedness is off the scale, so I'm extremely focused, but it meant that actually my flexibility suffered. So, so, and, and, and I love the interplay between goal directedness and flexibility. And I, and I, I get it personally. So at a personal level, I understand it. And so I don't. I lean on my goal directedness to help me navigate through stuff. And, and that, that then masks me growing my flexibility scale. And actually I almost think I don't need to be flexible because if I get goal directed, I'll achieve the goal. Yeah. So I just sort of smashed through all those things. Yeah. To achieve the goal.

I mean, do phrases like cutting your losses or having a break or letting it go, do they seem anathemous to you?

Well, it's a bit. Again, it just cracks me up because I think about the life of Brian and the, and the, and the, and the soldier that he had the fight with, he's chopped his arm off and he's chopped the other arm off and then the legs. He says, come on. Yeah, exactly. It's just, oh, it's, you know, let's carry on. Where are you going to come back and fight? You know, it's sort of like, yeah.

It'll get, it gets you a long way, doesn't it? And it probably gets you through your childhood and other things. But you know, as we really want to get to that higher level of, you know, growing with ourselves as you know, you can't get away from flexibility really. I mean, I'm sure you've got a lot more than you give yourself credit for, otherwise you wouldn't be doing what you're doing.

Oh no. I mean, I've grown. It's just an awareness of. When I first saw the scales, I thought, oh, hello, you know, I, I can relate to the goal directedness stuff, which I, I know is very much me. And then I realized that actually my flexibility scale was low because I rely so heavily on my goal directedness, you know, so my emotional resilience, personal power and goal directedness, they're sort of like my, my superpowers. And then that meant that I wasn't paying any attention to the flexibility scale at all.

This is why it's so important, I think, and I talk later about leadership and you know, personal power. Golden Rangers are very strong correlates with leadership effectiveness.

Yeah.

But if you don't blend it at all with flexibility, they're the leaders that people, they'll follow. But there'll be a lot of resentment and sooner or later it'll end in some kind of catastrophe if that person is unwilling to bend just because that's a strategy that's always worked for them.

Yeah. And that, and that's, I think that's what it is. It's sort of like, well, the evidence is just blindingly obvious. You need to pivot, you need to change.

Yes.

And it's, I suppose it's, I suppose if organizationally, you know, when I think about it as a. Take flexibility, the flexibility scale into an organization and I think about a book that was written by, I think it might have been John Cotter, how the Mighty Fall. And it was the, the core message of that book was hubris, you know, that they, so they weren't, they just thought they were too big and they couldn't fall. They couldn't.

It's classic, isn't it? Particularly success is what breeds inflexibility in a sense of this is working, I must continue this.

Yeah.

And it may continue to work. And you find a lot of organizations, it's not just an individual, it's the leadership board of directors who lack flexibility and they've kind of self convinced themselves in their bubble of self belief. But of course, you know, reality is always Going to be more powerful than belief, self belief, or even that and self delusion, of course. So with. You're not going to get that without self awareness. So flexibility will improve with self awareness. At the same time, recognizing who else do I need around me? Where are my weaknesses? Where do I make good judgments and less good judgments? And recognizing. It's about combining our strengths. I think we were having a chat before Jim about our different personalities and, you know, blend this together, we might be a pretty good human being. We.

Yeah, you put us in one of those. Yeah. Put us in a blending machine, and we definitely come out as a better version of, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger or whatever, you know.

Yeah, but I like. I like type theory, and a lot of people don't. But Jungian type, you know, you got your preferences, but the big misunderstanding of type is that you are that color or you are that personality letter. And it's really that massive misunderstanding that we are both sides and we're different. Blend, you know, combination is learning to use both equally effectively. And the combination of those is really what it's all about. And the same with all personality tools. I think they tend to take us down that route of saying, I am this.

Yeah.

And actually. And trait models. And the great thing about AI is it's very much developable. And the biggest challenge you face, I think initially as a coach, is the self, you know, view that I am. I am who I am, and it's not going to change.

Yeah. And also something that I listened to recently from Gabor Mate Mattes, one of his podcasts was this. And it was a really interesting thing that I sort of, you know, gripped on was our. Our, you know, our relationship with the attachment to our identity. So as soon as I say, oh, I'm a coach, that's what I identify with. I'm then making myself less of a. Less, you know, I'm sort of now taking more of, you know, I'm not as a whole human being. I identify very specifically with the fact that I'm a coach or I'm an iron man or I've done the Race Across America, all those things. And then actually, instead of saying that I'm more than that, you know, I sort of reduce my lens of if I identify with the fact that I'm. I'm a coach, that's what I say I am, then I, you know, I'm diminishing myself as a human being in terms of all the other things that I actually am as well.

It's. It's Like a constant tension and I'm not sure, it's almost philosophical, this. I'm not sure. Yeah, of course, right here between what we talk about later, authenticity, knowing who you are and your identity, which is something that's very much encouraged and then being, not being bound by your identity at the same time.

Yeah, those.

Yeah, labels.

Yeah, labels. I mean, I think it's, I think that's, that's probably a better word actually than identity, to be fair. But it was just that I, I remembered, it just jumped into my head about that, you know, it made me think, stop for a second because I thought, oh, hello, that's an interesting thought.

You know, and so when we look at authenticity, it's worth combining that with flexibility and say, okay, is my, you know, some people are very flexible but don't have a, you know, because they don't have a sense of inner guidance in a, in a radar as to where they're going or what they want, who they want to be. I remember when I was doing a lot of assessments for graduate assessments and they're kind of, in some ways easiest and sometimes the most difficult because they're very open. I'll do anything, you know, I just want a job. I don't really know what I want, so I'll try this, try that, that's great. Very open minded versus senior people who say, yeah, you know, this is my work experience is what I'm good at and I don't really want a job that doesn't fit. So you kind of say it's a mutual decision as to what job you do. It's not, it's them deciding what they want, not you as an assessor and that's what you do at more senior levels. And they've got different benefits to both. But I think as we grow up, we do kind of want a sense of who we are, knowing what we want. But the danger is it gets too strong and it leads to inflect, which is why this one is a useful one to pick up with senior coaching very often.

Yeah, yeah. And then just talk to me a little bit about the, the other way around. So someone that's got a really high level of flexibility, but actually they haven't got a very high level of goal directedness and how that might just play out, you know, just what's your.

Well, it can be quite fun, it can be quite spontaneous and almost childlike and though, you know, it's a gift as well. And as I've said, I think previously when we talked about Golder it's, don't, don't reduce your flexibility because that's the capacity. It doesn't mean you have to use it all the time, but just keep it in the bag, use it when you need it. But recognize maybe this isn't, it isn't the time. Maybe what I really need to do is focus more on another scale that's going to help me get like personal power, like goal directness, like authenticity, things that are going to help me achieve the thing I want to achieve. Because you have to say, okay, what is it? Where do I want to go? What do I have to do to get that? And why haven't I got that already? And it might be overplaying flexibility and not using, you could, you could argue somebody who's flexible could be flexible enough to change. So they could be less flexible because they're flexible, because they've got that capacity to change. Because I. Hang on a minute. What I need to do is be a bit more organized, structured and decisive. That's means I'm going to have to be more flexible in my behavior. So ironically, this is a gift. Having it means you have that capacity to do that change.

Yeah, yeah. And, and I like the rigid. You know, when someone's got a low flexibility scale and you know, the, it's very easy to understand that, that when they're inflexible, they just won't budge. Yeah, it's very easy to understand that.

And I think we all have, even if you are a flexible person, I think we will all have that inflexible part which comes out when our, when we're, when we're feeling upset, angry, misunderstood.

Yes.

And it brings out that childhood defensive behavior, which is the characteristic that is almost a definition of defensive. I'm going to protect myself and I'm gonna. Regardless of what's happening out there. So it's that uncompromising, difficult behavior we all have. So we all know when that's the scale bombs.

Yeah, I can definitely recognize that stubbornness in me for sure. A hundred percent. You know I can. And especially when you say it's the defensive behavior, it's just like, okay, yeah, you've. Now, you know, I'm not, I'm not budging on this.

And these are, these are deep rooted patterns very often that stop us feeling awful about ourselves. But they don't deal with the, with the issue very well in the long run. So yeah, recognize it. Don't beat yourself up because that makes it worse. Just say, notice this is happening. Let's Take a deep breath. And this is where we get into techniques for developing our flexibility. You know, one is very much a habit change approach. And I always think it's really important, end of a coaching session, if somebody goes away with a thing they're going to do. Because at the very beginning I said emotional intelligence isn't about knowing about AI. We both know a lot about AI, but I'm certainly not the most emotionally intelligent person. EI is through experiential activity. And that's how we develop it is after the coaching session we go away and apply it.

Yeah.

So that means if you want people to change, we need to go away and apply something specific. And what's more important than the actual thing you're doing is the fact that you're making the effort to change a habit or characteristic.

Yeah, no, I like that, I like that. Take it for a run around the block is what I tend to say to people. Yeah. Sort of like go and give it a whirl, you know, you know, test, test the theory, you know, test it out, test it out. See, have a go. And not just one or two. Have a goes, you know, maybe do it for a couple of weeks. Give it a whirl.

Yeah. And we try to make, you know, change. Focus on something. Certainly I do at least focus on something very, very specific. So it's something you're going to achieve.

Yeah.

And that reinforces the, the neurological experience that it's something I've, I've done. And we know from habits that it's, it's like chopping through a woodland. You know, they will be old, the old pathway will still grow, will still be there and the, the new one will be grown over. So you have to keep working at it.

Yeah.

And I do a lot of dog walking and I'm always amazed at how quickly pathways open up. If you on the same, even with this little run through for rabbits or something and you can see where they've gone, but it takes three or four goes before that pathway starts becoming a clear route. But you do the same with changing behavior. If you keep walking it, using it, doing it, those neurons and the, the combination and the sequence of neurons firing become embedded and eventually they become automated, which is what a habit is.

Yeah. It's great to see the n. MRI scanning. I think it is that Joe Dispenser, you, Joe Dispenza uses to talk about how those neuropathways are, you know, so you're uncoupling and then you're creating new connections in The. In the neural pathways. It's very impressive. I mean, it's great to see and listen to a lot of these new data that's been coming through over the years. So is there anything much else that you'd like to say about flexibility? The flexibility scale, Joe, you could probably.

Talk all day about it because it does like all scales, they connect to all the others and different examples. I would just say flexibility is once there's two aspects. One is adapting yourself and your own behavior. The others is of what you said is also about changing for other people. So will you fit in? Will you cooperate? Are you agile? Yeah. In the way you do things. And that's, you know, if you can develop your regard for others, I think it'll help develop your flexibility because I can see your point of view, I understand where you come from. I can see the benefits in what you're saying. Maybe I need to fit in more to what you're saying. If I don't listen to you, I don't have regard for you, then I'm going to be less willing to change my ways.

Going back to that, that word that you used earlier, which is rigid, you know, it's sort of like you're. You're rigid with your view. You don't pull anyone else's views in. You don't ask for advice. So these are all aspects of the flexibility scale where you are, you know, you score low and you are rigid and fixed. Yeah. Okay.

So there's two sides. One is adapting to others. And one other facet I think is really important is optimism or what we call balanced outlook. If I've got a very pessimistic view of the future, I think, oh, it's not going to work. There's no point, you know, there's nothing I can do to change a bit like.

A bit like Eeyore. Yeah.

Just. Yeah, you're not gonna. But if, you know, if you got some excitement, enthusiasm, like a young person. We say young people are much more flexible, probably because they're more optimistic. Yeah, yeah. They can see. And excitement that's going to give the energy and motivation to be flexible. And you won't even call it flexible. You just call it doing stuff. Yeah, yeah. We don't need to give this a label. This is just, you know, and of course, if you're not flexible, everything else is going to change around you and it's going to be harder to fit in.

Yeah. I mean, it just reminds me, as you say that and fitting in, it just reminds me of the Classic little change story that we tell when we're working with a team is, you know, if you're a green bug, like if you're a grasshopper in a, in a field and you're sort of sat on a leaf, a green leaf, you know, you're, you're happy because you're secure and, you know, all things are pretty tranquil in your, your environment. And then all of a sudden, if you hop from that green leaf into a sort of like a, a yellow field, all of a sudden you're, you know, your predators can see, they, they can see you. So it's about that change aspect. So there's, I just find that really interesting around the whole thing of being conscious of how you're playing. Yeah.

I mean, that's a whole new field. The environment we're in.

Yeah.

Can make us. And we talked about organizations having to change and you, you have a group think, because we've always done it this way and there's great things having the identity, but if you're not really in touch with what's going on out there, the marketplace, the paradigm, people, I mean, particularly today, gosh, things are moving on very, very quickly. I mean, we're certainly. I'm in my 50s, and you think, you know, it's very easy to lose touch a little bit, but the first point is recognizing you might be losing touch.

Yeah.

If you're not doing all, you know, involved all the time.

Yeah.

Because things, you know, human beings move particularly fast at certain periods and seems we're going through that period at the moment in many ways. And I think I talked about at one point about, you know, the cows in the field will always be eating grass and probably doing the same thing for the next hundred thousand years if they're left to do that. Human beings will never be doing the same thing. We will be advancing. It's. Our nature is to become bored, restless, and to create new things. That's what the human brain can do. The animal brains don't. And so if you're not using that innate potential and resource, then you're going to be frustrated and fed up. So change does happen and we have the capacity to work with it. If we use, which is what emotional intelligence is, it's learning to be adaptive.

Yeah. And the grasshopper story is really, it's all about awareness, you know, awareness of, of that. The fact that it has changed and you do need to then flex because if you, if you aren't flexible in that situation, you're in trouble. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

I thought we might go straight to authenticity only because of time and also connecting with others. Jim is definitely is relationship. We can pick that up in the relationship.

Okay, let's do that. Let's do that. So jump from there because you already have mentioned the authenticity scale. So. Okay, so what, what's, what's help listeners understand what this is about.

Yeah. Talking about a provocative label. Authenticity is one that really triggers people.

Oh yeah. So I mean leaders definitely want to score high on this and a lot of the time they don't always score well on their authenticity scale. And it's sort of like that's the one that they go, oh, you know, I was hoping that I would, I thought I was authentic.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah.

And, and it's, you know, it might be that you, you know, you do get the, you know, the dark triad, Machiavelli and narcissists. And they will be, they'll, they're not authentic. They are manipulative and this untrustworthy, dishonest. And that's, that's very rarely the case that we're looking at. We're looking at more often than not people who are quite the opposite. In fact. They're people with high regard for others and they're so keen to keep everyone happy around them that they promise more than they can deliver.

Yeah.

So, you know, the whole yes person approach means that, you know, authenticity is about being principled, reliable, dependable and doing what you say you're going to do and Knowable.

Yeah.

Consistent.

Yeah.

But supposing I just, you know, keep on promising and then not keep my promises because I over promise. Or maybe I'm high on flexibility and I'm low on gold directness. So I just, you know, start something and never finish it as a, as a boss might say. Well, you're not very reliable. I can't depend on you. It's not. You're a nasty person. In fact, you're very nice person. But authenticity is, is one of the scales that might be affected by that.

Yeah. And I, and I like the reference to consistent as well. And knowable. Yeah, I, I really, I like this scale. It's one of my favorite scales as well. Well, they're all significant, of course, but I think I find this one really interesting in terms of do they, do they not only talk the talk, but do they walk the walk? I suppose that's really the sort of thing that really sort of is the catch all for this.

Yeah. Yeah.

And one of the examples I tend to give. Jude, sorry to interrupt One of the examples I tend to give is the, the old classic of, okay, so you're saying to your team as a leader that it's really important to have a work life balance and yet you exhibit behavior that is completely not that at all. You know, so you're sending emails out over the weekend and, you know, etc. And so your team's experience is that you're a workaholic and you're working non stop. And, and so as much as you might say it's important to have a work life balance, to me that what I'm seeing from you is that actually work, work hard, that's how you get ahead sort of thing. So it's sort of like it's, it's counter productive.

Yeah. Do you, do you do what you say you're going to do?

Yes.

Do you not do what you say you're not going to do? And you lead by example. They're all good, good illustrations. I think I remember I used to do a lot with the raf. They, they really bought into the emotional intelligence stuff. And one thing I was, I was always very, very impressed by them as individuals, particularly on this scale. And one of their mottos, I believe is, you know, would you, do, you know, how would you act when other people aren't looking?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So when other people looking. Yeah. We want to impress wanting people to like us and we want to do the right thing. But would you do the same thing if other people didn't know?

Yeah.

And that's one of the principles is even when people don't know, it's altruistic, you'd still do the right thing. And I think that's such a telling thing of, of a, you know, integrity.

Yeah.

And the kind of values, you know, you really want in very, very much in relationships and leadership in particular. Because I do think this scale's particularly important for leadership. One of the reasons is as, as you know, the brain is really the primary purpose of our human brain is to keep us alive and safe. And it's scanning the environment constantly looking for potential threats. And one of the biggest threats is unpredictability. If I can't read other people, I don't know them. They're inconsistent.

Yeah.

So I've got a leader who is, say nice to me one day, horrible to be the next, chopping, changing up and down. It puts people on edge and some leaders unconsciously use that as a strategy to keep people on their toes. But actually it's very unsettling and it creates a Lot of anxiety, a climate of fear.

Yeah, I can see, I can. As you, as you unpack it like that, I can see how that would be create anxiety within a, within a team or an individual.

And often you'll find people would rather work for somebody who is pretty tough, firm, but it's consistent, you know, where they come from. They'll do the same thing, same rules. And at least human brain feels predictable and safe. They may not like it all the time, but you kind of know where you are. Maybe in this military context some people like okay with that sort of authoritative approach. I'm not saying you have to be authoritative, but consistency is very important for a sense of putting for climb, for creating a climate where people feel reassured and safe.

Yeah.

And it's not just, it's the whole organization. If they're chopping and changing and don't do what they say they're going to do and you know, unpredictably make people redundant or recruit people do things that seem. Feel unfair. Is a real bad climate and culture for getting the best out of people's performance and creating loyalty and motivate all the things that really matter.

I mean, and that is such a good point, Joe. The, the unfair Pete fair is such a big thing. It's like really hits, it hits me as you say it, like and, and myths misunderstood, you know, so those things, fairness and being misunderstood, those are big ones. So. Yeah. Authenticity. So give me some examples of, you know, you must have seen it in someone you've worked with or someone that's had a really good, you know, they walk the talk. So examples that you've perhaps seen or people that you might have worked with that have got really good authenticity.

I mentioned the RAF example. Yeah, I think there's, I mean, yeah, I mean I think about if one thing, one of the things I ask people to do is think about want one person in their life who's had a positive influence on them.

Right. Okay.

For me, influences leadership. One person in your life is a positive influence. Now it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be a leader. It could be, it could be a family person, a parent, it could be a school teacher, but in your life they've really had a positive influence on you. And then write down what it was about them. And more often than not it'll be things like, you know, they believed in me. I knew where they come. You know, it's. Those are the leadership qualities. They're the authenticity, confidence in me that really matter. So I think Rather than me giving an example of somebody who's got this, think about somebody in your life who's got that because it'll be different for all of us and there will be people and they, I bet you they will have this aspect to them.

Yeah, I think, I think it's. If someone says they're going to do something, I think that for me is that, that, that links to the authenticity. If, if I say I'm going to give you a call or I'm going to send you something and then I don't, then, you know, I, that will dent me for sure, you know, so. And I'll feel let down. So I can imagine someone on the receiving end of someone that's not that authentic at all.

Yeah.

And it's, it's funny because actually another example I tend to give is, it's a bit like is today a good day to go in and have that conversation? You know, so if you, you were talking earlier, Joe, about this scale being, you know, consistent and known and if, if you, if a leader is not got great authenticity and, and you're not quite sure how they're going to act and respond in certain situations, then it's, it is. You're going to be on eggshells.

Yes, that's a good phrase for it, being on eggshells. Yeah.

It's not a great environment, is it, for, you know, that's another example.

Think of a climate where you, you felt at ease and being at your best. What was the leadership like? And one where you felt the opposite. And these, these will be, you'll be pulling out leaders with high authenticity, I think, or what we mean by it. And one, one way to develop this is very much because you can get people who, who do have that, but they're, they're kind of closed books. So you kind of, oh, I don't know, don't quite know how to read this person.

Yeah.

So it's really important at the same time to make yourself known to share yourself a bit more than you might normally do as a leader. You know, talk about feelings and, you know, you know, not be too much of a hidden book. And connecting with others is a really important facet to that.

Yes.

Building close connections, sharing yourself, talking about feelings, you know, sharing vulnerabilities as well, really helps build that bond of trust. And, and the human brain again thinks, oh, I can connect with you. I know, I know you, I feel safe with you. And for influence, leadership, one, if you want to follow somebody, you need to feel that way towards Them.

Yeah. And it's interesting how you said that about. It just made me think about the authenticity and how that links with self regard. Because if you've got a good self regard that, that will, you know, help you along that path.

I absolutely. The one thing I think authenticity does for the, for the individual is help them go through difficult times.

Yes.

So if you're having to make very tough, which you will, and a lot of people may disagree with you or not even like you and all your insecurities may be affected by this, but if you've got a self belief of you're doing the right thing because you know what your values are, your principles, if you have that inner sense of okayness, self regard, because you're doing the right thing, that takes people on that journey through those difficult times. And I think it, it's very closely related in that sense to a sense of, you know, what called self belief and self. Self, okayness, self, regardless. So I'd suggest people, if you don't know what your values are, work out what, work them out, write them down because it's going to help steer you through difficult periods. Some people, it could be, you know, ethical or religious or moral or just principles they've been brought up with throughout the fact you probably again, we all have them. You may not recognize what they are.

Yeah.

But recognize when, how far you go before you feel your, your boundaries have been compromised.

Yeah, I might, it might be useful. I will share the backward glance values exercise on, on this episode for those people that are, that are watching this via video. They can get a, they can get a screenshot of this particular exercise itself, the backward glance thing. You, you may well have come across it in the book. In my book, Joe. I share it in the back of my book, the values exercise, which yeah, it gives you just an insight of, okay, looking on your deathbed, looking back at your life, what do you want to be remembered for? You know, what are the values that you want to be known for? And people write that down on us, you know, from 1 to 10. So they order them in terms of where they'd like to be remembered, how they'd like to be remembered. And then you do a sort of the same forensic analysis of okay, so in the last couple of years, where have you been focusing your time and energy on? On the same list of things. And, and of course when there's a disparity between the two, it creates the awareness of ah, yeah, I've been focusing too much on this. But I want to be Remembered for that. So it helps you sort of, you know, it creates the awareness of, okay, I'm, I'm sort of adrift a little bit at the moment.

I think that's, that's, that's an excellent idea because I think, you know, so often we don't know what our values are. And that exercise, I think it's very powerful. We are, it is getting quite deep, but that's what, that's what this stuff is. It is deep stuff. That's your guiding principles in life.

I mean the other, the other way to do it is just, you can actually say, and you know, I, you know, mates of mine that are in our world as well, they, we've spoken about values. Basically you can see what you value most by what's showing up in your life right now, you know, so if you, if it's a high value for you. So for example, you know, I value my health and well being and my fitness. That's a, that's number one for me. If it wasn't number one, then it's likely that I'd be double the size of what I am at the moment. I'd be overweight, I'd be, you know, I'd be a couch, couch sort of watching TV and all this, you know, I wouldn't be as active. Definitely.

Just one other thought on, on authenticity is. We've mentioned transactional analysis as one of the underpinning models that we've used in developing this framework and approach to emotional intelligence that talks about, you know, having an integrated self. So if you're into ta, you might read a bit about that and that the adult, the responsible, aware, choiceful part of you, the adult as it's called, is organizing the different elements. It's organizing the more parental influences and the child impulsive behaviors. And we, we all have these different pulls and our personality. I think Freud would talk about ego, super ego and id. Well, the, the conscious choiceful part is the part that needs to organize that rather than just letting them run wild and do whatever they want whenever they want, which is where you get low. Authenticity might be good fun, but it's, it's unpredictable. Yeah, you can, you can choose to be unpredictable. I'm not saying don't be spontaneous, but it's a sort of conscious awareness thing to some degree where you allow yourself like let your hair down, go now, tonight, gonna have a party.

So now that don't remember, but an.

Element, an element of, you know, aware of organizing yourself through that, through that central stem of the adult Part, So that's well worth reading about too, for authenticity.

Yeah. Okay. You know, over the years, if we can get into the, the data, the, you know, the return on investment if you're, if your organization's looking to invest, or if you're a leader and looking to invest in your team development, why would they, you know, have we got a compelling enough answer? I mean, I know the answer to this, Joe. I, I, yeah, it's a yes, it's a very simple yes. But, so what are the bits that you would like to share with our listeners from the white paper? And what I can do is give a link to the white paper so they get access to this if they want to go a bit deeper into reading it, etc.

Yeah.

What are the really good chunky bits that you can get your teeth into as a leader or as an HR director? That, that, that would convince me to say, okay, yeah, I need to do this.

Yeah. Because what we've been discussing up to now is, you know, are evangelizing some extent, we think wonderful and yeah, of course. But you know, there's going to be other people who are going to take a far sterner approach and say, well, what's the data? How confident can we be? And this is often called the validity. Does it do what it says? You're claiming these wonderful things. I love the theory, but what's the evidence? And this is the expensive bit because it takes years and years to do one study and you may need to get lots of data. That's why it's taken 30 years to collect this data, because it's longitudinal. And also what we call, when you collate, you know, 30 or 40 studies, they're all saying the same thing. Yeah, they're all saying, actually this does relate to people who are higher in this aspect tend to perform better in these ways. That's pretty powerful stuff.

It is.

None of these studies are perfect, but in the early days, Dan Goldman was alluding to this and you know, the claims are a bit grandiose, but people bought into it and said that sounds believable, but it's taken literally 30 years since then to get that evidence put together. And there's been a lot of, you know, moderation of that, but we know where it, where it works as well. And so that's what this white paper is a collation of those 30 years of meta analytic studies. And they tend to group into three main themes where AI tends to have a lot of added value. One is around job performance, which we'll go into, particularly for, you know, leaders, which is where most interest has been. Although I would dispute that's where we should be putting most effort. I personally believe it's the lower end of that. You can get most biggest impact and biggest difference. Because if people already perform pretty highly, 1% increment is not as big a deal as somebody who's just starting out.

Yeah.

So performance is a big area. Engagement, you know, where how committed are people, how loyal, how much effort are people putting in? So what's the emotional engagements about? Motivation and drive and energy. Is there evidence that people. If you create a climate where people feel empowered, say emotion. Intelligent leaders create a climate where people feel engaged, will they perform better? Again, the, the evidence is overwhelming there.

Yeah. And actually just.

Yeah, sorry.

As you say that stuff around engagement, it's just interesting because of course, the Gallup stuff, it's taken years and years and years for the. I mean, that, that's the biggest study done on engagement, you know, 1.3 billion people around the world. Look, look, you know, look at the data. I mean, over the last 15 years it's gone from something like 13 and it's only. It's now sat at 21 people fully engaged.

Yeah.

That's crazy. Like, it's just, it's, it's sort of like, well, we're still not there. We're a long way short of, you know, fully engaged people.

It's. Well, I mean, it's fairly steady, isn't it? About 75% of people are disengaged. Not engaged or actively disengaged. Yeah, worse.

Yeah.

They're the people who will sabotage and cause problems. They're better off. The company's better off, productivity wise, at least without those people, because they'll do a lot to create, lower the climate and disrupt things.

Well, actually, that's where they spend a lot of their time and energy, as you know, Joe, you know, performance managing those people. Attempting to. Anyway. And where I think big bang for buck is, is that that middle cohort, you know, getting them up to the same level of the. As the fully engaged people. But of course, they, they are distracted by the disengaged people. And that's where they spend all their money and effort and energy.

I think there's always, there's always some economic law about that, isn't it? That 80% of the resources are invested in 20% of the people. And if you could just get that down to 15% of people, you'd be saving yourself billions.

Yeah, yeah. Amazing.

Yeah, amazing. That's that's the second area of research in the, in this document.

Yeah. So performance and engagement.

Engagement. And then the third one which has become bigger and bigger over the last 10, 20 years is well being.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, of course, of course.

And I was just looking at the data on that and I'd written a note, this is a presentation I was giving, you know, a few years ago and it said 99 billion every year the cost of the economy of, of low mental health and well being. It's 99 billion. I thought, oh, that must be global, that must be the whole world. And I just checked it out, you could do it now. And the Mental Health Forum data says no, that is the UK every single year and it's now gone up to 118 billion. 118 billion is lost in the UK economy due to mental health well being issues.

And this is people.

It's a very broad term. I know, but it's just, it blew me away actually when I saw that. I thought that was another checked in the US It's a thousand billion. These figures are just. We're talking about the economy is largely affected by the well being of our workers. I mean that's. Doesn't get bigger than that.

Well, that's. Well, and it's of course there's, you know, thinkers at the moment. Thought leaders are sort of saying there's a, there's a bomb going to be coming, you know, it's going to go off shortly about the, the whole Covid backlash of mental well being and people not being able to socialize and all the rest of it. So. But that doesn't surprise me at all. I remember the stats being ridiculously high and you're talking about people that are taking time off work, sick and stressed and burnt out.

It's a very broad spectrum.

Yeah, but it's a lot of, a lot of people in there.

It's massive. I mean, 22% of, of workers who. Sorry, 22% of employers are saying the primary cause of long term absence is low mental health and well being.

Yeah.

So that's a quarter of them are saying the primary cause of, of the problems they're facing is due to absence and low well being. So it's a massive, massive issue. Whichever, whichever angle you look at, and I'm not saying, oh, emotional intelligence is a panacea and get that and we'll sort it all out. But if you think about a normal distribution, if you could just take 0.0001 of a percent and shift that to the More positive side. So you know a million people actually are in the more healthy box than the distressed box.

Yeah.

You'd be saving several billion just over straight away. So the economic, you know, if you, if it works at least economic impact is, is, you know on unquestionable. And this, and this is the evidence in these papers, these meta analytic studies is showing that increasing emotional intelligence training has, will improve resilience, reduce stress, increase mood and then engagement. It's. You've got more. These are the stats and data. It improves engagement, commitment, satisfaction and productivity. So there's a huge relevance here.

Yeah.

And just to show how it fits with our framework. So I've talked about performance, engagement, wellbeing as the three threads. So performance relates very much to the behavior level of our framework. So you change behavior, people manage themselves better, more goal directed, better personal power, better on trust and balanced outlook that correlates strongly with the top left job performance.

Yeah.

And this is our, that's, that's with the EIP at least and there's data we can, we've shared in there, the middle level about engagement, motivation, well being is very much around awareness. Yeah. Awareness of what do I want, what motivates me. So that's the middle layer of our framework and of course well being is about self esteem, self regard. Am I okay? Do I value other people? If you can start tapping into that multi trillion pound area of deficit through improving well being through the bottom layer then it's all. And all the arrows filter upwards anyway so it leads to better performance, engagement, then you've got something really, really valuable. And that's why the framework fits so neatly I think with the data we're pulling out.

I like how you've just done that. I've not, not. We've not spoken about it in this way Joe before. So I really like how it links to the model. Yeah. Very, very powerful. And is there, is there anything, are there any. Because I know you've used certain papers, you know when, when you've been working with leaders and creating the awareness for them. Are there any papers that you know that stand out for you that you think oh yeah, so and so did a really good, you know that was one of the papers that really was a sort of like a good piece of research that was done.

There are, I mean I know you've done, remember all the names, I mean Joseph and Newman, examples of who've done a lot of meow. Done some of the more recent papers.

Yeah.

And what I really like about some of these papers is what's called incremental validity. Does it add value? Is this a new fad? Is it doing anything different from what was done before, say with traditional personality questionnaires?

Yeah.

And what you need to do then is put the different tools together and say, okay, if we add AI, does this add value over and above say a personality trait tool?

Yeah.

Or an IQ instrument?

Yeah.

And, and that's when the answer is yes, they are clearly adding incremental validity and you only need a small percentage to make a dramatic impact and improvement. And I would say most of these studies are done on senior leadership levels. So they're people hard to improve anyway.

Yeah.

So yeah, it's, it's all in there.

Yeah. I mean the research from Zenger and Folkman was pretty spectacular. You know that.

Yeah.

You know how to, you know, extraordinary. They were looking at it, you know, how do you get extraordinary leadership? And you know, they, they showed that, you know, you've got to have the motivation, you've got to have the technical quotient, but actually the, the game changer is the emotional quotient.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, so, so there's, there's different.

Levels of academic, level of study. You've got the sort of peer reviewed papers which are the ones we talk about with meta analytics and then you've got the big commercial organizations like zenga and Folkman McKinsey which do some pretty interesting, I'll call it more survey research. And these, they're, they're basically talking to the chief executives around the world who you know, really are the influencers about, you know, the economy largely about where, how much, you know, wealth which is obviously taxed and invested back in hospitals and you know, education and all the other things that need to be spent on. So it's important that these things grow for the wider society. And they're very much saying EI isn't it is on the top 10 list. It's invariably in the top five of factors that are seen as really important for the future going towards 2030. And yeah, I'd say some of that is in this white paper as well. But of course these surveys are going on all the time and things are shifting. They're often called different things but it may not be always termed emotional intelligence. Like, you know, think about agile working needs a lot of flexibility on the scales we've just been talking about.

Yeah.

Remote working requires a lot of connecting with others. We need to learn to connect differently. Artificial intelligence and these are things that keep seeing people up at night worrying what, what, what's going to happen in the future? And the irony is AI, it needs more human understanding, not less. Yeah, it's actually, that's where you need more emotional intelligence. That's what they all say. AI and ei, you get the perfect blend. If you just have AI on its own, which is the new revolution, then we're in trouble.

Yeah, no, we're still going to need people to monitor that and, and input stuff in there and just check it's.

Got the human element there and it's not just an Android spreadsheet, otherwise people will be left behind, which is the whole point of it in the first place. So all of this stuff and obviously the whole paradigm towards mental health, well, being resilience, which has been going on for a while, is, goes to the core of our model, which is self, self esteem, self regard. So all these things are going on in society and changes fit very well with the different concepts around emotional intelligence, I believe.

Oh, no, I mean, well, I'm, you know, I'm completely bought into the whole thing, but I think that it's great that the data is there and I continue to use certain references when I'm working with leaders and their teams to just create the awareness of the different data points that are out there, you know, so some of the companies that have done, you know, look, research on their top performers and, you know, their top performers are, you know, in sales or, or productivity, etc. They tend to be the people that have got a high emotional intelligence. So. And there's some good, good, you know, data out there that just backs up, you know, there was such a, it was always hard in the early days to try and sell the concept of the idea of soft skills because they always used to say, well, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm focused on the hard skills, which is get the results, go out and make more calls, sell more, you know, but actually there's a, the ability to be able to interact and engage and, you know, influence. They're all things that you have to be good at and, but that comes through being emotionally intelligent.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just on the individual level, it's, it comes through as a, as leaders. I mean, I haven't talked too much about climate, but I often think of AI as a sort of pyramid. You've got what's going on for me as an individual, but then you've got what's going on for us as in relationships and teams. And at top of it, you've got What's EI of the organization?

Yes.

What's it feel like to be part of this group? And our research into, into that shows very clearly that positive climate is improved by leaders who have a better awareness of others, connect better with others, have high regard for others. So all these, all these little facets work upwards to the whole climate of an organization.

And I suppose it sort of bounces back to the comment that I made earlier about Bren A. Brown's comment, which is, you know, be the example of what great looks like. You know, so be it. Be an example of what great leadership looks like. And then other people will get it. Get it. They will follow.

So, yeah, I should just say, yeah, that the, the white paper is distributed through talagy, my previous employer. I think we wrote it originally while I was at jca, but it's, it's still it, you know, I think it's been around for a while now, but I think it's still very relevant and you know, there's always new research, but I think it's all along the same theme since, since that time.

And I can share for our listeners the link.

That's right, isn't it? Yes, you could go into the, into their website and then the link will be there. I think it's, it's readily available and they're keen to get it, get it read.

Oh well, if people need, you know, the data to convince their boss that this is something worth investing in, then for sure. Okay.

There's also a load in the book, you know, you mentioned at the beginning, one of our, you know, the EI book that, that I wrote, that's got, you know, 20 different specific studies which show return on investment organizations.

I'll put a reminder of that for our listeners as well because I think it's, it's very easy. It could be missed on one of the other episodes. But yes, I think it would be great. So if they really want to go into this in, in a, in a more thorough way, then the book would be a good, good read for sure.

I mean, that's probably enough for now.

I think you're right. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that's been a, it's been a great episode, Joe. So thanks again for bringing along your thinking cap. And I know you, it's very easy for you to dig into this because this is what you live and breathe as I do as well. But I, I'm, I'm looking forward to getting into. In our next episode, start unpacking the relationship Management scales because of course that's the other, that's the other side. So we've looked at very deeply the self management side. Next time we get together we'll start unpacking the relationship management scales which is the critical piece. So if you've got, if you've got good self management skills, can you then transfer it? And it's not always the case actually it's really interesting when I'm unpacking this with leaders, it's very interesting that they might have some really good self control and self and, and good, some good coping mechanisms and strategies for managing their state. But how good are you at doing that with other people?

Yeah, yeah. And ultimately, you know, if you're, if you're a leader then you're going to get more return if you're getting best out of others, even if you're not always getting the best out of yourself, ironically.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So look, have a fantastic week, Joe. It's been great to reconnect and get another episode for our listeners to listen to and look forward to seeing you in a week or so's time.

Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks Jim. Been great, enjoyed it.

Bye bye bye. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Thank you for listening. Remember to share and subscribe to the Eiguru podcast and if you have any questions you can post them. Once you you've subscribed you can follow me on Instagram at the Eiguru and you can get more information from my website, the eiguru.com have a fantastic week. Bye for now.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just on the individual level, it's, it comes through as a, as leaders. I mean I haven't talked too much about climate but I often think of EI as a sort of pyramid. You've got what's going on for me as an individual but then you've got what's going on for us as in relationships and teams. And at top of it you've got what's the EI of the organization.

Yes.

What's it feel like to be part of this group? And our research into, into that shows very clearly that positive climate is improved by leaders who have a better awareness of others, connect better with others, have higher regard for others. So all these, all these little facets work upwards to the whole climate of an organization.

And I suppose it sort of bounces back to the comment that I made earlier about Brene Brown's comment which is, you know, be the example of what great looks like you know, so be it. Be an example of what great leadership looks like and then other people will get it. Get it. They will follow. Yeah.

I should just say, yeah that the, the white paper is distributed through Talagy, my previous employer. I think we wrote it originally while I was at jca. But it's, it's still it, you know, I think it's been around for a while now but I think it's still very relevant in, you know, there's always new research but I think it's all along the same theme since, since that time.

And I can share for our listeners the link.

That's right, isn't it? Yes, you could go into the, into their website and then the link will be there. I think it's, it's readily available and they're keen to get it, get it read.

No, well I, if people need, you know, the data to convince their boss that this is something worth investing in, then for sure. Okay.

There's also a load in the book, you know, you mentioned at the beginning one of our, you know, the EI book that I wrote that's got, you know, 20 different specific studies which show return on investment. I'll put different organizations, I'll put a.

Reminder of that for our listeners as well, Jim, because I think it's, it's very easy. It could be missed on one of the other episodes. But yes, I think it would be great. So if they really want to go into this in, in a, in a more thorough way than the book would be a good, good read for sure.

I mean that's probably enough for now.

I think you're right. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that's been a, it's been a great episode, Joe. So thanks again for bringing along your thinking cap. And I know you, it's very easy for you to dig into this because this is what you live and breathe as I do as well. But I, I'm, I'm looking forward to getting into. In our next episode, start unpacking the relationship management scales because of course that's the other, that's the other side. So we've looked at very deeply the self management side. Next time we get together we'll start unpacking the relationship management scales which is the critical piece. So if you've got, if you've got good self management skills, can you then transfer it? And it's not always the case actually. It's really interesting when I'm unpacking this with leaders, it's very interesting that they might have some really good self control and self and, and good, some good coping mechanisms and strategies for managing their state. But how good are you at doing that with other people?

Yeah, yeah. And ultimately, you know, if you're, if you're a leader, then you're going to get more return if you're getting best out of others, even if you're not always getting the best out of yourself, ironically.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So look, have a fantastic week, Joe. It's been great to reconnect and get another episode for our listeners to listen to and look forward to seeing you in a week or so's time.

Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks Jim. Been great. Enjoy. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Thank you for listening. Remember to share and subscribe to the EI Guru podcast and if you have any questions, you can post them. Once you've subscribed, you can follow me on Instagram at the Eiguru and you can get more information from my website, theeiguru.com have a fantastic week. Bye for now.