TheEIGuruepisode3

Welcome to the EI Guru Podcast, a podcast completely focused on emotional intelligence. Typically, the first question I get is what is emotional intelligence? In very simple terms, it's how we manage our emotions in our interactions with ourselves and others. Or put another way, it's being in the right state and and not being in a state when under pressure. Emotional intelligence is another label for mindset, and we all know that when navigating those important conversations, we need to tap into our best. I'll be interviewing leaders and experts in this ever expanding field and sharing the data on why emotional intelligence is the difference that makes the difference in all of our relationships. Remember to share and subscribe to the EI Guru podcast and if you have any questions, you can post them once you've subscribed. Cast this this week I'm joined by Jamie Davis. And Jamie and I met, weirdly enough, at the local gym in a sauna and we started talking and we I very quickly.

So handmade coordination was massive and he taught me from a very young age with a tennis ball, just throwing a tennis ball against the wall, catching it and again it wasn't just a blank wall, a plain wall, it was a chipped wall. So chippings or pebble dash. And anytime you threw the ball you never know what direction he was going to go. But as a result that skill set really served, served me well moving forward and then yeah, so Fast forward another 10 years from there. So cometiers are 14 or 15. And again through all primary school, secondary school I resisted playing rugby, just did not enjoy it. I think one game that stood out and my friends will never let me live down school again. It was an evening after school match throwing down with rain. I think it must have been January, February time throwing down with rain, bitterly cold. I was playing on the wing because again I was always quick, I was always tall, but I had no desire and I had to get involved in rugby whatsoever. So I stood out on the wing, didn't touch the ball, but the four game didn't touch the ball. I remember coming back inside, got into the showers and my hands hit the hot water and that burning stinging sensation, whatever it was, it put me in tears. Absolutely. So I didn't want to be here, didn't want to play my hands and I was just hurting so I was crying in the change rooms where my coach and my teacher at the time had to hold my hands to warm them back up.

I find it fascinating that you didn't touch the ball all game. How can that happen? How, how can that Happen as a.

Winger, obviously if I wasn't lacked at that point, I wasn't very active. I didn't go looking for the ball at all and I kept myself very much to the touchline. So the ball, because the weather was so atrocious, it just did not get out to the wing. Did not come out to me.

That's brilliant.

So yeah, hated that experience. So that was literally my decision made. I'm never playing rugby again. I managed then as I could have played football up and through those years as well. I got picked up or sent down to Carmarthen Town FC as a 15 year old. I signed for Carlton Town as a 15 year old, got put on loan to my local club who were playing in a few leagues below. And I was always a striker again. I was always at all. I just enjoyed the glory, I suppose. But I got put on loan playing senior football. I was playing right wing back. I felt so out of position and during that time again it was just one of those things. It was an adjustment that I didn't, I wasn't open to again. I was from looking back in hindsight, I was too young to really appreciate what they were trying to do and so develop my skill set. I just resisted, didn't like it, but never spoke up, never spoke about it, just kept it on inside. As a result, a lot of my friends at that time again were very. They loved rugby. So again the groups just, just like myself, but they loved rugby. They formed a youth team again that clashed and coincided with obviously the contract obligations that I had through football. But I just said, look, I just want to play. I just want to enjoy playing the sport and just be with my mates. So I switched, I went to go on playing rugby.

Wow. After all those years of resistance and.

You know, it was one of things. I hated it for so many reasons but ultimately I just wanted to be with my friends. And then the first youth match that they put together, we played a team that were transitioning out of youth rugby and going into senior rugby. So they were 17, 18, going on 18, 19, whereas we were 15, 16 stepping into the youth. So with the bottom end, the top end, there's quite a big difference in terms of size, physicality at that age. But we went there on a bus away day, evening game. It started off quite feisty. The rules of today's rugby didn't apply back then. So if, if anyone's aware, stamping if you're on the wrong side, your scrum half or anyone would happily just give you a shoe in and you'd come out regularly with scratch marks and stud marks everywhere. When this game got quite physical somehow at halftime we were winning and we were so just, just about ahead. I was playing fly half at this point as well because they wanted me to get my hands on the ball early and just run. Bear in mind I couldn't really pass off my left hand. But then the second half kicked off and I again made a tackle. I rolled the wrong side. Someone then ran across and stood on my face. So in doing so it just erupted. It was a 30 man brawl. Fans are coming on off the side of the pitch. Massive fight kicked off. I remember getting up again, trying to just clear my face a little bit, a bit of a cut through my face. And I was standing with the, my opposite 10 and we just sort of just wrapped their arms around each other and just watched this fight unfold. It all came to a stop with just one punch and it, yeah, it was quite a nasty punch but all stopped. Literally got back on the bus, we were escorted onto the bus. Couldn't go to the change rooms, couldn't go to the clubhouse. After I was on the bus and I literally just sat there smiling and I said I love rugby.

So that was your in moment. You were really committed then from there on in and, and the game, it sounds like you, you, you've just described a match that didn't complete. So you didn't finish the match?

No, it was massive banded after 55 minutes.

And were you still in front by that stage?

We were still. So we won the match.

Well, there you go, you got the victory.

So this is it. So for my eyes, it was a great all round experience.

Fantastic. So I'm really interested in the, the mindset component as, as you, as I mentioned before, which from a professional's perspective. So a professional athlete for I don't know how many years you were playing pro rugby. But I'm interested in understanding that and unpacking that with you. So you know, what would you say some of the core aspects that helped you maintain, you know that, that commitment to being a pro rugby player for so many years. So tell me about your career. How long did that last? From start to finish?

Yeah. So I suppose from start to finish it was across a 12 year span.

Okay.

With the full career of those professional across an eight year span. And yeah, I did. I worked this out a few years ago for pounds per minute played. I was probably the most expensive player of all time.

Okay.

I was very, I was very unfortunate. I mean I Was played with injuries. And a lot of that again, I suppose comes from my lack of preparedness, which is ironic given what I do in today's world. So I was always just raw potential. And I think if you ask any of my coaches growing up, I always had that sort of raw ability. I was always gifted by being tall. I had the skill set that I developed from hand eye coordination at fast twist fibers. I was always quick. So those three aspects always put me ahead of probably anyone else. So I think that statement where again, talent, I say hard work always outbeats or outdoes natural talent every day of the week. And it is definitely a case of that. I never really applied myself from a younger age where I probably should have. And as a result I suffered from that through. It starts off with hamstring injuries, so from the age of 18, suffered quite nasty hamstring tears. Yeah, I think I suffered probably in the first season of senior rugby, a professional level, I tore my hamstring twice in the season.

You're still growing at that, you're still growing as a kid at that age, aren't you really? So it doesn't surprise me that that's, that is possible. And if, if you're talking about not doing the right preparation then and, and of course you can probably look back with hindsight now knowing full well that actually if you could have easily have taken better care of yourself 100% if.

I, if I knew what I know now back then, I think I'd have a very different career looking back at it now. So as a result, because of the injuries that I suffered, the lack of sort of preparedness, as I rightly said, and just the, I suppose the general knowledge that I have now, I'll say in general, the specific knowledge that I have from today, the aspects, the key aspects that I look back on and believe worked well for me was the resilience, sort of acceptance, strangely to start acceptance. But yeah, probably more so definitely that resilience piece. I think from a very young age, I think I said to you before we came onto the recording itself in my background, you know, moving to where from a young age, I am mixed race, so my father is Nigerian. I'm quite dark and not quite as dark as my father, but I am quite dark, dark skinned. Growing up in a village that no one really saw anything other than just, you know, white kids and white people. I always stood out for that. And some people were quite ignorant to that fact. And some people made my life quite difficult, especially from early on now I Never had anyone to sort of turn to. As I said, my father is Nigerian, but my parents split when I was three. I didn't live with my father. I live for my mom, who is very, very white, almost albino white with her hair that she has. But I had no one to turn to and to sort of even confide in at that point. I never found. I connected well with my mother from a young age.

And you've got other siblings as well, Jamie.

I do. So I have a twin sister and an older sister again. So the three of us predominantly grew up the first 10 years anyway together and quite close, especially with my twin sister, then my younger half brother. So a different father came along. Harry, he's again Caucasian, white male. He struggled, as I say, from a young age as well, just to sort of accept his position within the families with that dynamic because three older siblings who are all mixed race, he sort of struggled with that. But, you know, from there on, you know, when he finally understood, he still, he fitted in very quickly, whereas myself and my sisters really struggled with that. My. Ironically, I see them all, I think about it, my. My grandfather, who was affecting my father and my role model growing up, he sort of looked at. I spent more time with him. I did my actual father. So everything that I learned and gained from experience, standpoint, from skills from hand eye coordination, from my ability to actually speak with people and try to. And just general manners and just the way that I am always stems from his upbringing with him. He actually revealed to me when 13 or 14, how much he struggled with the fact that my mother was dating my father for the fact that he was black.

Yeah. Wow.

He said he couldn't get his head around the fact that she chose this black man. So he really struggled. But as I said, all he knew, he. He was brought. He's brought up. He was born in the house that he lived in, in a farm in Wales. He never saw another, say ethnicity, never saw anything of that ilk. There was no Internet, there was no tv. He was never exposed to him. So when he first was exposed, he struggled. But he said as soon as me and my sisters came along, his whole perspective, his whole vision changed massively. And just the love from inside that he gave just overtook any sort of. Yeah. Any prejudice, anything they had against any of those necessity.

So we're talking about your grandfather's. Your grandfather from your mum. So your mum's father.

Yes.

Yeah. Okay.

So. So that was quite a quite profound moment. Quite a significant thing for me to. To hear that again. Even someone, even a family member, because they didn't know or they were unsure. It's the unknown, isn't this. They're not sure of what to expect, why this other person looks the way that they do. It's almost instantly right, Fear, don't like it, we can't be friends. And even your family member could even turn to have those sort of internal feelings, but then they overcome those. So I sort of understood from quite a young age, from that sort of moment, 13 or 14, that you're not born with it, but if you're unknown and you just. You can somehow can't help how you feel around something if you're unsure of it. So that in itself made me think, well, you know what? That's. I can't control that. If that's. If that's your feeling. All I can do is if you're in my presence, if you're with me, then I can just be who I am. If you like me, great. If you don't, again, great. That's not my problem.

Yeah, I like. I like the. I like the ownership piece of what you're saying there. Because a lot of the time we don't take personal responsibility for our. Our actions, our feelings, you know, and stuff that shows up in our life. And it sounds like you've certainly mastered that aspect of it, perhaps forced more so than others, you know, to have to you. You said something very profound earlier when you said there were two things that really were critical for you. One was your resilience and also your acceptance. And acceptance is a big piece, you know, being able to accept what is in our lives. As human beings, we tend to argue with reality most of the time. You know, we argue with the fact that it's raining or it's hot or it's, you know, the kids this or whatever, dad that or my boss this or my boss that or the government this or the government that, you know, so we argue with reality and we battle with it all the time. We're sort of come up against this brick wall. Almost like it. We. We call it in coaching, in the coaching world, we call it fly mentality.

Yeah.

You know, the fly that. If it was flying around this room now, it'd be flying around quite happy. And then it sees outside because I've got an outside door with a glass window on it and you can see through it. And the fly would probably go towards the door thinking, oh, I can get outside. And Ben bangs into this glass and it goes, oh, hello.

What.

What the hell's that. So instead of trying to find another way out, it'll take a bigger run up and then try and go through the glass again. So we call that fly mentality where we argue with reality and it, it's fascinating how we get stuck in that stuff. But your emotional resilience. So we measure emotional resilience through the emotional intelligence framework that I've been using for the last 20 years and it's a core component of your self management scale. So you referred to your resilience, your ability to have that resilience to be able to see those injuries through. So you said something before we came on air around. I think it was 13 significant injuries that you've, you've overcome in your career. So you were the pound for pound, minute by minute, highest paid person. But that, that suggests that you were off on the bench or injured for quite a bit of your career. So. And then you made the comeback. So you can make. It's almost like Terminator. You sort of like, I'll be back. And you sort of. You terminated yourself back into game.

I did. I did indeed. And yeah, you're right. So 13, 13 operations that doesn't include the torn hamstrings, the poor muscles, the other muscle strains that I've experienced. Yeah. So it's quite unfortunate. I mean even one club, yeah. Plymouth Albion, when they're in the championship. Yeah. They renamed the rehab suite to the Jamie Davis suite. I think even, don't quote me on this, but it was, it was only, I think three years ago when someone actually just took a picture and screenshot sent it to me saying I still name this. So were they still there today? I don't know. I could probably find out.

But that's quite funny. Well, it's not funny, but it's, it is funny. It's a sort of a testament to your resilience to be able to overcome those injuries.

100 and I think that that was one of the, the key, the art defining moments again for my own sort of resilience and, and that level of acceptance. This is where I, I always sort of understood that things happen for a reason. I always believed that from a very young age. But what I probably found more so through playing sport was that obviously these things happen and you've got two options. Either you accept the fact that this is what it is and you sort of build your way back up or build yourself back to where you need to be, or again, you sort of resent the fact and reject that this is happening to you. Put your Head in the sand like an ostrich and then fix nothing at all.

Yeah.

So from my standpoint I was told again, strangely enough, Plymouth was quite a significant defining moment for me as well because we did a preseason so two, three blocks of pre season, so quite intensive training, quite full on if you've ever done any. Yeah, pre season training. I think anybody listening to this who's experienced that, you would know what I'm talking around in terms of how intense that can be. Leading up to the foot, we played three friendly matches as well leading into the first league match on Friday night in Exeter against New Jersey Reds. At the time that week, all this training I had, I think I had a bit of strapping on my wrist or whatever it was. Stepping out onto the field for another sort of quite an easy training session. I went to turn to throw the tape back and I just felt this little twinge in my knee. Couldn't think of what I was just it's quite sharp, quite sudden. Wasn't sure what it was but through it tried to run it off, I couldn't. So I came back to the physio. He said yeah, I saw that. I'm gonna put you in for a scan this afternoon. So long and short went the scan, scan was, came back and the reports, the sc, the head coach, the doctor, everything was in the room and they said you've got a knees of a 75 year old man. You've got less than I think it was 13 cartilage in your right knee, you've got osteoarthritis in the knee. So again you're probably, we're surprised that you're not suffering more from pain on a regular basis. I said oh, it's just, it's not feeling comfortable. So he said yeah, you need an operation. Fantastic. My S and C at the time, he said you do need an operation. But he said two things. He said, either we can try and manage this, so have an operation, you're out for the year, we try and rehab bring you back in or you retire now. He said that in front of key stakeholders, key members of this, of the organization and that literally I thought that's outrageous. You can't say something else to me. I shouldn't be able to say that. And I just remember that time, that internal feeling. But again I didn't voice it, I didn't voice how I felt. It was just one of those things. The blood sort of raised and filled up inside me, got really hot. I thought that's outrageous. Can't Say, that's me. So I was like, well, I'm not retiring and I'll have the operation. I'll come back this time next year, I'll show you. But then, yeah, they didn't actually. They went a different route. So there's a third option I wasn't aware of. So instead of giving the operation there and then, they said they're giving the operation in February. So our season started August, end of August, September. So I had to then work my way through for the next of six months with by weeks, every two weeks, having an injection directly into the knee. So I was ostenil this horse and all your fluid, effectively trying to give me a bit more cushion. Obviously I had no cartilage. Very, very painful needle. I don't know if you can see, but it was very, very long going into the knee and I was not allowed to zone. Way better for that day. All my training was sort of refined to pool low impact. I could get out of the paddock every now and again to join with some of the teammates. But in my game, time was quite limited. And I saw you start and see how long you can last. So February came around, March came around. Still no sign of this operation. By the end of the season, I said, look, we're going to terminate your contract and you left your own devices. So, as I said, I had to eventually have to pay for my own knee operation to get this back up. But it made me realize there and then that you can't rely on other people to look after yourself. It's. It comes down to you.

Yeah. So, I mean, God, that's a big lesson, isn't it? For so many of us on the planet, we, we. You know, I got stuck in my early career in the. When I was selling drugs. The, the legal drugs.

Yeah.

When I was working in the pharmaceutical industry. And I got stuck because I was a high performer, but I wasn't being promoted and I couldn't understand why I wasn't being promoted. And I blamed management for not putting me on a program and not doing this and not doing that. But actually, interestingly, at the same time, I wasn't taking any personal responsibility to develop myself. So it goes back to your point of we are, we are responsible for ourselves. No one's going to come along. Sometimes you might be lucky and you get a lucky break. But actually, most of the time, whatever's happened, it's because you've put the effort and energy into the situation. So. Yeah, so. So you, you were saying that you would, you had to self fund that you had to take care of that yourself and get the operation on your knee.

The operation done on my knee. So. And then I sort of made that decision. So it took me, I, I can't lie to you, it took me a good couple of months when I found that my contract was going to be terminated to, to even get my head mentally around that. But as I said, once I finally got myself out of that stoop and that slump, I realized that, well look, there's only one person who's going to get, who's going to make this better and that is me. So had the operation non weight bearing for three months. So I couldn't put any weight down on the leg. So micro fracture surgery, if anyone's come up across it, but you drill into the bone, into the bone itself, you let that bone bleed. So it forms an artificial cartilage trim down the top of the bone so it makes the actual bone smooth. So it restricts how much friction you get and any grating that you would get of the, of the cartilage. And yes, I've had two of those.

Wow. On the same knee? On the same knee, both knees.

So.

Wow.

Very unfortunate.

So, so you're a bit like Bambi when you first come, come out of hospital though.

God. Tell me about your.

Yes.

Yeah, just that's, that's probably an understatement. And any sort of your leg strength that I had before, again that had totally disappeared, it's gone entirely. So yeah, to build it back up was something that required again a lot of just commitment and discipline to do so. And I remember the first one that I had, so after that, that experience, I didn't even consider myself a timeline. I just thought I need to make sure that I'm right. That's all I wanted. So I didn't want to engage with anybody. I told my agent I don't want to speak to anybody because it's going to be at least 12 months before I'm even close to thinking about coming back. And about four months, four months back a local club to me in Wales at the time knew that I was back and so do my own training. So they said look, do you mind having a chat? So I met at a service station over a coffee, bought me a coffee and he said, look, just from your level of experience and where you've been, obviously you know what you're about. Can you just come down to training with us? Obviously we'll pay you to train but just be around the boys, teach them show them some ropes this time. Said, yeah, look more than happy to do that. I've got nothing else. I literally had nothing else at this moment in time. So I thought, yeah, great, let's, let's go for it. So I went down, encouraged it. So I was trying to support the back three. So I play wing off, full back. So I support the back three, give them some experience that I had, try to sort of guide them through what I could see. Just again starting some of the teaching approaching aspect whilst doing my own drills as well, just to sort of get myself back to where I need to be. So all my sort of rugby training was, was just straight line running either forward or backwards, trying to get used to being able to sort of run and actually build the, the ability to run again. Really?

Yeah.

And their first, is one of their first league games again. I said one of the first league. It was a cup game. I think it's every Vale. So yeah, when the first came up and I remember I used to get. Take part in the meetings. So I sat in the, in the, in the meeting room where they were announcing the squad for the weekend. They were going through the list. So number one, X, Y and Z got to 11 and they said 11 Jamie Davis. So, so a few people turned the house and looking at. But there's no other Jamie Davis here. So they go through the rest of the team and I was like, that's gonna be a mistake. So spoke to him afterwards after the meeting, so finished. I said, have you put me in to start? He said, yeah, you've been running really well. I haven't hit a pad, I haven't changed direction. I don't even know my knee can tolerate any of that strain or toll. I can't do that. And plus this is probably about six months before I'm ready to come back. I said, look, if you can just, just start the game, even if you last 10 minutes, it'd be good. So as you just be on the pitch, giving the boys that little boost and it'll just, yeah, it'll just pick it all up. And again, at the time I thought crazy. Don't want to. But yeah, all right, let's give it a go. And when we all sat, they came around and strapped my knee up and as it goes, yeah, I played the full 80 minutes, scored a try, had great fun doing it and I was back.

Wow, that's crazy. That is, that, that is completely crazy. So we, we didn't have, we haven't really spoken about your degree in sports Sports psychology. So I, I'm really fascinated to un. Understand that piece of the jigsaw puzzle for you because you talked about the, you know, the hard work out Trump's talent and. Yes, that's true. And then there's the sports psychology side of the whole thing that I think a lot of people don't really fully appreciate. So I'm really interested in understanding that aspect, that piece of the jigsaw for you and how you use that to your advantage.

100%. So interesting if I went back a little bit further than just university. So studying in school, secondary school, I never studied psychology so I want to put that as a, as a starting point. Never studied psychology so my background was physical education. So pe. I then went down the English language and literature and history. So those are my three A level focuses. And yeah, went into university under duress. Wasn't a plan because I signed my first professional contract for Newport Glenn Dragons. At the time all I wanted to do is play rugby so I had no interest in having anything fall back. Rugby was life. That's all I was going to do for the rest of my life. My father insisted that I went. I had no guidance to know what I want to do so I thought anything sports related. So all right, sports science. Everyone sees me doing sports science science and they said you're not doing sports science because. And his words, anybody can get a job in jjb. Yeah, yeah, I have. I say that was the ultimate sign of disrespect and that's not my opinion on that whatsoever.

No, no, no.

But at the time I was like, fine. My sister was going down the journalism route so she was studying journalism. So I said I'll just do journalism, do what my sister's doing, I'll do journalism. So I did a year of journalism, hated journalism, so then transferred over to doing sports psychology. So I said I had to go into sport in some capacity, didn't care which. And as I said I met with the, the module leader at the time. He was the sports psychologist for the Great Britain hockey team. I spoke with him and he just sold it to me. So he understands my situation. Professional sport understands the, the need for flexibility, understands obviously how this can actually relate and benefit me personally. Not just from, you know, learning a little bit more around the whole topic and the whole psychology so aspect. Then I thought I said, look very open, my background is in psychology, I have no prior knowledge of psychology. It said not a problem. The fact that you're in professional sport and I believe that you will Be good for this.

Yeah.

So I made the switch and the first two years, so I had been breaking down part time, obviously, because the commitments elsewhere, rugby just took me four years to complete the degree. And again, he was a massive help throughout every aspect of that. But the understanding of confidence building, resilience, how to visualization, everything that requires that neurological sort of training, as it were, it benefited me so much even without knowing. So I didn't ever really apply the knowledge that I was gaining into my sport until I'm now a personal trainer.

Wow.

It literally took me that long for the penny to drop.

So you must have been doing it. So just, just to pause you there for a second, you must have been doing that innately anyway, somehow. So you were doing it anyway, but you weren't really consciously thinking about that.

Sounds crazy.

Yeah, yeah.

Because you just think if you're studying that intensely and you're getting that guidance from people in the, the right industry and in the right job, he's. He's in a team sport, he's in a professional team sport again, applying the skill set. He works within that framework and yeah, he's teaching me how to do it, but yeah, I'm not applying it or I didn't feel that I was directly. I wasn't consciously applying it, but as I said, it was one of those. I became, I actually became a kicker by a place kicker shortly after starting sports Psychology. And again, why I always had a big boost. I was always able to kick a ball if I wanted to go a certain direction. I had no control of that to start. But I then started kicking because I was able to apply training or aspects of the psychology training into application on field. So something to be able to block out external noise, something to be able to focus in purely on the task at hand, visualization, seeing where I actually wanted to place this ball between the sticks. Everything that Johnny Wilkinson, if anyone has any, has any read Johnny Wilkinson's book very much everything that he was taught around kicking was. Then I was doing it myself. And again, I didn't read Johnny. Johnny's book until 10 years later to really understand actually what he did. I did. And I had no idea that I was doing it. So, yeah, I was playing that. And my success rate as a kicker, especially through university days, was actually really, really high. And then since then I finished university and I tried to kick the following year. So the year I finished, then went back into kicking. I couldn't kick straight. I couldn't, for whatever reason, I couldn't think of It I said, when I look back and if I try it now, even with practice given I haven't kicked the ball for five years, I know that I can kick a ball where I wanted to go, but I apply it to throwing a ball. I apply it to whatever I'm doing now. I can understand why I was doing it and I can now apply it so it works. So there's two of. I've picked up over the, over that time. And yeah, it was, it was just quite ironic really, when I look back of how much, again, I had tools at my disposal that I never utilized.

And what about. You said that you went from your professional career and then you did a bit of stuff in the corporate world for, for a period of time and before you ended up with your own business, now as a personal trainer, coach. So tell me a little bit about your corporate experience because that, that would have been very different. And I, I think it's a really interesting point for people to understand because going from professional, being a professional athlete to then having to do something completely different. So you were doing something that you loved to. Then having to go and do something that was going to give you to pay the bills, you know. So, yeah, talk about, tell me about that transition and how you might have used some of your mindset, your resilience, et cetera, to over, you know, to help you with that.

Yeah, no, definitely the. I suppose, as I said, as we've mentioned, around the time spent on the sidelines, so most of my time when I was on the sidelines, I wasn't even able to be on the bench. So most of my time before matches, it was spent entertaining corporate clients, clients, sponsors, the rest of it. Now, for whatever reason, I always had the confidence to speak to anybody. I had never shied away from speaking to anyone. Everyone puts their socks on the same way. So in my eyes, with that in mind, no one's different. No one's gonna intimidate me. No one's going to make me feel uncomfortable or belittle me. They're not better than me. You put the same, you put your left sock on the same way I put my left sock.

It's funny you said I just got to pull you up for a second because it's funny when you say no one's going to intimidate me. I'm a, I'm a, I'm a hobbit compared to you. You're a giant in comparison to me, Jamie. So you're. You're six. What, how, how tall are you?

So I'm six four six four six four.

And you're pretty muscular guy. You, you're obviously still in great shape, which is a great credit. It's a great advert to your, your business. But I, I just find it funny that you say no one's going to intimidate me. I. It would be the reverse. It would be sort of like, here's this giant stood next to me.

So I think with that, I mean, I think status is always really plugged down the throat of most people. I think if you spoke to anybody from, you know, anyone growing up for anyone before their 20s, I think you'd say if you put them in a room with a, a senior board of C as a C suite boards, senior stakeholders, people are going to sort of stumble, they're going to stutter, they're going to really struggle to find their own place in that room. Whereas as I said, I've never shied away for whatever reason. I don't know why. It could be the fact that I'm quite tall and quite big in myself where it gives me that natural confidence to be like, well, look, you may be able to talk a good game, but I just look like a good game. Yeah, no matter what it was, I could. But my so go to every time was that you put your leg. Their soccer wipe on my left. Soccer. That is the, that's the humbling experience. That's the humbling mindset that I had. So it didn't, I didn't, I didn't, it didn't phase me in any way. I didn't shy away from conversation. So I remember speaking to a number of these sponsors in just a way that they were just, just like you and I, just again, common ground. We had a, you know, common interest obviously within rugby, so why not just talk as if you are just a mate? And as a result, I was sort of. I remember one of the guy. There was a sponsor that I was speaking to at the time and he asked me the question, he said, have you considered life after rugby? I said, hadn't even thought about it. And he said, do you know what you're really good with talking with people. Have you ever thought around recruitment? Thinking at the time, I says, I mean, I don't understand what recruitment would entail. I thought you just, if there's a job, you find someone for it, you put them in the job, easy as that. And he said, in a nutshell, that is it. Well, if it just means talking to people, entertaining them, whatever, and trying to get them into the role then. Yeah, I mean, I suppose I can't see any harm in something like that. And I can't see why that's all too challenging. So he put me in contact with one of his contacts again within the recruitment industry. And, you know, one thing led to another. I ended up getting a job there, 2026. So after the eighth year of trying to play professional rugby, I thought, you know, now is the time to really try and focus in on. I see going into the corporate world making money in a different way. So I remember buying my first suit felt weird. So I didn't have to rock up.

On a pair of shorts and a.

Rugby, rugby top, vest, T shirt, whatever top, you know, jumping into the gym. Instead I just wear suited and booted. Going into the city, catching a train, all the rest of it. And the novelty wore off very quickly. But the first two weeks of actually having to be a commuter, I thought was just exhilarating. I thought it was amazing. So why everyone puts this down, says, how awful is. This is fantastic. I want to train. Got, you know, my suitcase or whatever, ready to go into town. Had nothing in it. I thought, she's great. Two weeks in, I realized, you know, why people hate this. But, yeah, I ended up going into the corporate world. So I started off in, yeah, recruitment in an industry that is. Yeah, it was residential and business surveyors. So surveying, again, no prior knowledge, really. Any experience around, you know, survey surveying or the. The rics, as I said, governing body, as it were, for surveillance or surveyors. I ended up doing that for 10 months. Ten months before I was then asked, I said headhunted then are brought in by a sales company. So event sales company, IQPC in London. And again, they just offered me this potential then to earn more again, selling events. Really great sort of ability to network different types of industries, different sectors that you can obviously broach into. I thought, fantastic. Again, salt went in. And the biggest thing that they taught or the biggest thing that they saw focusing on was again, selling, but cold selling. If you've never had to call someone up or just even speak to someone on the street when they're trying to stop you to sell you something or to ask you a question, but most people just bypass, barely give you any acknowledgment. They hang up the phone instantly be a room with my details gone. That is an experience I never experienced in my life. But what that taught me, again, resilience.

Yeah, Yeah. I thought you were gonna hit on the resilience piece again because you get A lot of rejection there.

Massively, massively. And even to a point, you. There was a couple of instances I was able to get a longer moment than just 10 seconds on the phone with someone. I was able to hold a conversation, hold that interest for about a minute and then they say, how did you get my number? And what is the purpose of this Again? As soon as they push back, even asking you a question which any right minded person would ask, what was the purpose of the call? I find myself stuttering. I'd be like, oh my God, I don't know, what was it again? I've got, I've gone, I've gone blank. I can't see their expression. So I can't really feed off that and bounce off that. It's just on the phone and then I panic. So 9 to the 10 again, you'd lose, lose the sale. I was thinking, how am I going to do this? But the more that I got down this road, the more rejection that I got and experience and every day then obviously going home, back on the train, sitting there and I was thinking, touching the body, feeling myself go, I'm not in pain, nothing hurts. Nothing actually has happened to me here apart from the fact that someone said, no, not interested. Okay, great. So the next day I thought, you know what, go again. And I actually don't care if you say that I'm not interested. If anything I can test myself a little bit more. So why aren't you interested? I said, put them back on the back foot. And I think, oh, I don't have the budget. Okay. So I talk to me, when, when do you get the budget? When do your, when does your, or what time of year is a good time to call you when you know you've got a bit more available budget? So things started to happen when I started to accept the fact that rejection is part of life.

Yeah.

And then to understand that I am going to experience a lot of rejection and had to build my own resilience to then be able to push back and become a better person as a result or a better salesperson. As a result or a better person. Sorry, better salesperson.

It's interesting what you say though. It's interesting what you say there because actually a lot of salespeople, sales courses will talk to you about the fact that the more nos you get, the closer you are to a yes. So you know, and I think that's a really clever way of sort of overcoming, okay, well that's a no. So I'm close, I'm closer. To a yes. Because I know there's a yes coming. It's almost like a set of waves. I know there's a yes in there somewhere. I've just got to wait and ride that perfect wave.

Yeah. I think there was again, so a few tools or methods that they sort of shared with me at that time. So I was there for again, just probably about a year or shy of. And it was spin selling. So the art of understanding where the. Where you need to bridge a gap. So where there's a disconnect and then two, there's a. It's a Japanese law of, I think the seven wines. So you just keep asking the question why? Yeah, so why don't. Why is it a no? Okay. Because I have a budget. Okay, why don't you have budget? So when will you have budget? I don't have a budget because I spent it on this. Also. You do spend money on this. So what got you into that? Why did you choose that over this? So before you know it, you go through. And if they're able to keep. The longer on the phone they are, the more likely you are to get a yes at some point. So, you know, at the end of those seven whys, you know, Federico, so I understand where you spent it, why you spent it, and on what. So, perfect. So if I call you on this date, this is when you're going to have budget available. This is what the interest that you're going to have. So it's a good time for us to. But I tell you what, I put it in my calendar, now you put it in yours. We can go for a coffee and go for a drink in between this time, so we still keep the conversation warm and we can go from there. So it all started to sort of take shape. So again, I learned a lot from that experience. Went back into the recruitment because I felt a lot more comfortable than in recruitment. So again, went back to my comfort zone. And then you realize, as I say, as it happens, Covid hit at a really good time for me personally, because I sort of went from going back to my comfort zone, which wasn't really my comfort zone, it was just an easier way of living. But I didn't actually enjoy it. So Covid hit, so everything shut down. And I thought, you know, this is probably just the right time for me to move and just to do what I actually want to do. So a bit of self reflection, understanding that I think I'm a better person as a result of the experience that I've just had over the last two years, everyone would say. And I remember having a conversation with the, my father in law at the time and he said, you'll be foolish to step into the fitness industry now because it's just going to die. It's just going to go downhill, covert. You have to be face to face. So therefore you can't do that kind of COVID It's just a dying industry. So I think you need to find a different way. You need to invent something new. So I heard him, didn't listen to it. So I'm going to do it anyway. It's what I'm good at. So I decided to go down that route. I managed to get a foot in the door with, I say a local business, I say local gym in St. Albans. So it gave me a bit more of exposure. A bit more. A bit more exposure to clients that. But the biggest thing from COVID was that everybody realized the fitter you are, the healthier you are, the more chance or better chance you had of surviving it.

Yes. Okay.

Ultimately, I mean, don't get me wrong, I was a trained personal trainer from the age of 21 reason behind something I probably didn't add earlier was that every time I got injured, I got over this and got better to get myself back onto the field potentially because I learned and understood what was going wrong. So I tore my hamstring. Why did I tell my hamstring? Because I'm hamstring dominant when I run. I have no knee lift, my hip flexors are too tight. Right. So this strength of my hip flexors strengthen my quads. Therefore I put less strain and stress on my hamstring. I just, I said just because my shoulder, right. Why I was too slight, couldn't take the impact. Shoulder development was too small. Rear delt, lateral head, all too small, too weak, bit of those back up. So every time I got injured, so. And I said 13 operations, both shoulders reconstructed, three knees, both ankles, toe, rib, wrist, elbow. List goes on. So as a result, everything crazy because I don't know if you can see, but I've got. Yeah. So the scar just across the top. Yeah, I've got. The scars are reconstructed here. Keyhole through the back. So I'm covered with scars and just. Yeah, I understood. I wanted to understand why this wasn't working on, why this was happening to me. So then I was able to rebuild and then get back stronger and always come back again. I always want to prove a point. I can come back. So no one else is going to tell me this is why I stop. I think there's another saying that I quite enjoy, is that you only quit when you stop.

Yep, yep.

Or you only fail when you stop. So you only fail when you stop.

Yeah. No, I agree. Yeah. You fail when you stop learning.

So I thought, well, I'm gonna stop. Like, there's still this. I've got life in me. I'm still. I feel I'm able to give something back, so why would I stop? Keep going.

I think. I think you're. You're a great advert for. For the comeback, for sure. And anyone that. That comes to you with potential injuries that they need rehabbing on, then that would be a massive benefit to be coming to someone that's gone through. Although, you know, that category of, you know, that list of stuff that you've just. Both shoulders, three knees. I thought you only had two legs.

But unfortunately I have this. Two operations on the same knee. Don't ask.

Yeah, no, but all those things, you know, it's crazy and. And I find it amazing that, you know, there is a certain mindset that you have to have when you're playing competitive sport at. At a high level. So you were playing a very heavy, you know, a very competitive sport, but a very contact sport as well, which was just. It is brutal.

Yeah, no, and it definitely took its toll on the body as well, physically. But as I said, I think all that said from the physicality side of things, now don't get me wrong, I think if I was prepared or better prepared from a younger age, yes, physically I probably would have been better. But as a result of not being prepared physically then made my mindset and my whole minds that much stronger. So that was my training at the time and that was my learning, which is why now everybody faces challenges. I'm not. I'm not alone in this. It's not a seldom thing where I've had setbacks about challenges in my career, in my life, moving forward. Everybody has their own. But what I try to instill and what I try to then encourage to all my own clients and what I do today is to just ensure that everything that you experienced to now till now has led you to this path. For some reason, you've now wanted to make a change for the better. So let's work to that. Those experiences, what didn't work, let's now find a way that does work and let's just make you stronger, just get you stronger and fitter. It's not necessarily always a case of just lifting weights. A lot of the Times, it can be something more, far more holistic, to focus more on your sleep and your recovery. Again, that will also in turn help with your cognitive functionality. Being able to be a better person, a better husband, better partner, better wife, whatever it might be, but a father better, a better grandchildren, wherever it might be. It improves you as an individual if you're able to get all the aspects from physical and mental health in line. So as I said, it's not just, it's just in gym. I have a lot of clients that I encourage. We go on walks, we go. I set them step challenges every month just to make sure they're getting that regular, to move, get into fresh air, get exposure to vitamin D. There's different aspects that I want people to really take hold of, get a grasp of, understand and improve. So therefore they can remove them everything about their life and them as an individual better.

That's, that's, that's amazing. And I'm conscious of your time this afternoon, Jamie, so I'm, I'm really grateful that you've been able to put some time aside for us to have this conversation. It would be perhaps useful as well to go into a little bit of detail on another call, perhaps. But where can people get hold of you? So is there, is there a website or, you know.

Yes, yes, I have. I have a website. So it's B3 coaching at. Yeah. BC coaching online. Www.B3 coaching. I'm also on Instagram social media. So I'm B3 coaching. So I think the handle is B3underscore coaching on Instagram. There's links there to the website, to the app that I've also got as well for if you want to do training at home or if you want any further programming. But yeah, ultimately available online, but social media and the website in particular. So B3 coaching. B3 comes from the three core pillars. So be strong, be true, be you. So again, taking that more holistic approach, again. So again, strength comes not just from the physical, but from the mentor. Be true to yourself. So again, don't be shy to voice your opinion, to voice how you feel, but again, ensuring that you're becoming a better version of yourself and ultimately just be you. So I'm not in the best version of yourself?

Yeah, I like that a lot. And, and I'm looking forward to you and I having. Not in a. Not in the sauna, but a proper coffee, a cappuccino perhaps either, in St. Albans. I'd definitely love to come along and visit the, the gym, your gym. And just have a little walk around, you know, so I can get a sense of that, so I can recommend people your way as well.

And yeah, definitely sounds good.

Are there any final take homes that you, you think would be useful for the listeners? Because I mean, this is a mindset podcast, so are there any mindset gems that you have got up your sleeve that you share with your clients?

I think that's a good question. Ultimately, I think, as I said before, everyone has challenges now, no matter what they are. Never fear failure or never fear failing at anything that you are doing. As I said, you know, as I said, it's, it's all of the case of learning experience. So make sure that you, what, whatever you felt failed or whatever challenge you're experiencing today, use it as a learning situation. So take away from that. It will naturally build your own character. It'll build your own strength, inner strength, and that resilience. Some never accept the fact that it's a failure. Learn from it, understand it, and try to push that forward and then just make a slightly, an alteration, a slight change to make sure that the failure doesn't happen again or if it does, great. Another learning curve. Learn from those failures. Nothing should be considered a complete failure unless you decide to stop on that side.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I think that's, that's extremely powerful. And again, in the coaching where we talk about using a journal to write down those, those points. So we, we call it Windland Change. So you, you completely have nailed it on the head in terms of, okay, take it as a learning experience. So life is full of learning. So from naught to death, it's all about learning. So, you know, so just get, get ready, strap yourself in and, and get ready to grow as a, as a human being, 100%.

And as I said, as a result of that, take the risk.

Yeah.

So I think, you know, one thing for me, obviously, as I said during that Covid period, I think if I didn't take that risk, if I didn't take the opportunity that everybody and everybody that I spoke to and spoke to around that decision to potentially move said it was a bad idea. But I listened, I did it anyway because in, inside it felt right. It felt like the right thing to do. Take a risk. If you fail, you learn from it. Yeah. But in my instance, fortunately, it didn't fail.

It's, it's funny because the, the, the great question is, if 20 years ago was the best time to plant a tree, when's the second best time? And of course 20 years ago would have been a great time to plant a tree because it'd be a big tree now, but now is the best time to, to plant the seed. So, you know, there is no better time than now, you know, the, the here and now because who knows what we've got, what's going to go on tomorrow or next week or next month or in a year's time. We, that's not given. That, that gift is not given. We've got this moment, but we haven't got tomorrow or the next day, etc.

Anyway, so, yeah, there was, yeah, on that note, just something I heard literally just the other day is that tomorrow's not guaranteed. So today is yesterday. The only thing that is guaranteed is yesterday. So live in the moment. Live for now. Make the decision today. Don't wait.

No, don't wait. No, don't, don't wait. Do not pause for a moment. Take a breath. Let it out and take, take the next step.

Definitely. Definitely.

Well, Jamie, thank you. It's been a real pleasure to sort of dance around your, your career as a professional rugby player, your sports psychology stuff, your corporate bits as well, and, and also more, more importantly, your new business. So I wish you every success with that. It, you're, you're a great example of what good looks like, good health looks like. So, you know, you're walking the talk, which I think it's, you have to, I think you've got to be in impeccable condition to be doing what you do. I, I see some personal trainers that aren't fit at all and you think, yeah, I'm not sure I'd be wanting to have you as my personal train. They might have the knowledge, but they, I, I, I mean, it's, maybe it's being unfair to them, but I, I think it's better to walk the talk, you know, to be a good role model, to look, to have to actually allow people to see what good looks like.

100% preach what you teach.

Yep. No, absolutely. Well, look, thanks ever so much. I hope you have a great afternoon and I will be looking forward to a coffee with you very soon.

Likewise, save to you and yeah, we'll definitely lock that date in soon as well for that coffee.

Okay, cheers.

Thank you very much.

Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Thank you for listening. Remember to share and subscribe to the EI Guru podcast, and if you have any questions, you can post them. Once you've subscribed, you can follow me on Instagram @the Eigur Guru and you can get more information from my website, thee guru.com have a fantastic week. Bye for now.