Theeiguruepisode4

Welcome to the EI Guru podcast, a podcast completely focused on emotional intelligence. Typically, the first question I get is what is emotional intelligence? In very simple terms, it's how we manage our emotions in our interactions with ourselves and others. Or put another way, it's being in the right state and, and not being in a state when under pressure. Emotional intelligence is another label for mindset and we all know that when navigating those important conversations, we need to tap into our best. I'll be interviewing leaders and experts in this ever expanding field and sharing the data on why emotional intelligence is the difference that makes the difference in all of our relationships. Remember to share and subscribe to the EI Guru podcast and if you have any questions, you can post them once you've subscribed. So welcome to the EI Guru podcast and today I'm delighted to say, and excited, really excited, because actually this is a really interesting connection. I wouldn't have got this connection with Caroline Stokes without my son suggesting that I get an AI app and start using it. So I did, because I have to bow down to my, my children's wisdom. And on this occasion I use the AI app to start looking at different people that were doing stuff around emotional intelligence around the world and Caroline's name popped up. So I'm going to introduce her a little bit, but then I'm going to get Caroline to do her own little intro introduction in terms of a bit of a deeper dive into what got her into what she's doing now. Etc. But Caroline Stokes is a human capital entrepreneur and author of Elephants Before Unicorns, which I must admit I haven't read yet. But we're going to do a book, book swap, so that's pretty cool. Which was published by Entrepreneur media back in 2019. And as an executive headhunter, so certified Coach and certified EQ 2.0 practitioner, Caroline helps Culture first innovation leaders prepare their teams for the AI revolution. And you know, goodness me, that's all I'm hearing at the moment is about the AI revolution. After an international career at Sony, Virgin and Nokia, Caroline founded Forward, which holds the distinction of being the first executive search and coaching Firm to incorporate 100 days transition coaching for all talent placements, which I'm really impressed with because actually so many leaders struggle in that first 90, 100 days. As an executive PC coach, Caroline Co creates transformative 14 week professional career development campaigns for leaders needing to rapidly evolve at all stages of their organizational and career development. So it's sort of, I mean I really am. There's so much to talk about. And I've already said to Caroline, I think this is going to be at least a couple of episodes because we're both passionate about emotional intelligence. So the other thing that I haven't really mentioned in Caroline's introduction, which maybe you can talk about yourself, Caroline, is the. The fact that you've also run a podcast yourself, which was the Emotionally Intelligent recruiter, which is how I actually found you on the AI app. So that's how I came across you. So welcome to this episode and I'm delighted to be able to talk to you. So give us a little bit of background for the listeners that might not have come across you around the world in your career so far. So tell me a bit about yourself and a little bit of plotted history, perhaps, Caroline.

Oh, thank you, Jim. That's a very big question with a very big answer, but I'll try and put it into a nutshell. So, like you, I have been a learner. I can't stop wanting to learn. I can't stop being interested in human beings and product and technology all at the same time. Ever since I had access to my first computer when I was, I think I was about 12, and, you know, typing away or using the VIC 20, which nobody will have heard of unless they're in their 50s, that kind of technology and trying to program. I was really interested in technology I knew wouldn't be a programmer. I was far too interested in human dynamics. But I love technology. I loved. I would go and work in stores that focused on technology that was evolving, like phones, answering machines, all of those things back in the 80s when they were just emerging. So I'm always interested in. I'm going to use the term cutting edge. I don't think it's always cutting edge, but that's why I worked at Sony to launch the PlayStation as employee number nine. I just had incredible passion and drive to be able to do that.

So, hang on, hang on. Just before that slips by, employee number number nine. I think that's impressive, actually. So you were number nine in on the PlayStation. How cool is that?

It was super cool. I mean, admittedly, that was in the uk, so, you know, employee number nine, in that particular office, you had Sony Image Soft and Santa Monica, you had Sony Japan and all, you know, did those different entities where they were building, you know, the PlayStation dream. I. It really was a dream back then to launch a console that would be successful and the rest is history. But we were so driven. Today, you'd call it workaholism, but we were so driven. We'd work seven days a week, you know, because we were so committed. There was no other way to. Of describing it. And. But when I was in those roles. So how I evolved to where I am now, as much as I loved doing what I did with the marketing, the publicity, whatever business development that was necessary to reach organizational and commercial goals, I could see the root cause of absolutely everything getting in its way, making it better. Whatever kind of algorithm I could see, you know, whatever matrix I could see. The human factor was just of paramount importance. And I remember having the mic drop moment in my mind, which was I was working at Sony and I was working in Golden Square in London, and we had all these marketing people standing around me and I could see the different dynamics, the different human dynamics and thinking, huh, where's the training here? We're talking 1995, 96, 97. So it's, you know, Daniel Goldman's book about emotional intelligence had only been out for a couple of years, so I. And at that time, nobody was talking about that. Leadership was regarded as something that people would have if they weren't, you know, performing sufficiently or competently. And it was regarded as a bit of a. Like a corrective.

Yeah, it was a leader stick, actually, which has just popped into my mind. It was like, which is not leadership, it's leader stick. But I think it was with a stick. It was with a stick back then. You know, it sounds barbaric, but actually I think that's. There's a certain element of truth there. So. Sorry I interrupted, but it just, Just made me laugh.

Well, you're absolutely right, because that was the issue back then. And it wasn't seen as a natural progression for organizational excellence, for. To enhance team development, to develop a culture. They were. It was like oil and water at that particular time. But I was fascinated. But it wasn't until some, like literally a decade or so later that I, I just decided to put my pencils down, very English thing, decided to just say, okay, that's it. I don't want to do marketing anymore. I want to focus on the human aspect. And that was a. Everybody was saying, oh, that's a really big jump, isn't it, Caroline? I was like, no, I've always been interested in that. I've always been fascinated in how humans assess and evaluate challenges, how, what they need to learn to be able to adapt, whether or not they have that learning attitude and behavior, you know, whether or not they have that desire, innate desire to be, for. For personal betterment, for Organizational development and so on. The language wasn't there back then. Everything was about psychology, not organizational psychology. And I wish, I wish I'd been born, born later where, you know, I could have gone down that organizational psychology track where it was, you know, literally I would have had to have been born 20 years later.

I think, mind you, one of my, you, if you've listened to Joe Maddox, I mean he was born similar sort of era to yourself. I'm slightly older than both of you, but he is a organizational psychologist and, and he's a, he's a lovely human being and he's got a lot of, I mean he's passionate about it as well. He's a passionate. Why wouldn't he be? He's, you know, he's written a book about it, you know, so. And, and I'm interested in getting to understand your book. But before we get into that. So you jumped from marketing into HR and where were you at that time and who were you working with for at that point?

Yeah, good question. I, so what happened was I was living in Australia for a while and I just kept gravitating to supporting people in their kind of career transition and trajectory. It was just very natural and instinctual. Instinctual for me. I then moved to Vancouver, Canada and I've taken a big chunk of my history out because I don't need to bring that up, but fast forward several years, moved to Vancouver and I had decided that actually my second child had just been born and I, I had made the decision. It's like, do I go down the path of continuing with the PR agency that I was, I was help helping to build the, the, the global. One of the, one of the global studio studios, satellite offices or do I do something else? And it was an interesting situation because my child had been born of. He had to have a lot of neurosurgery as a newborn and after all of the neurosurgery and having to care for him, it gave me the fat in the, in my, in, in my decision making. It was pretty obvious that with PR, they, they needed me to work 36 hours a day. I really needed to work nine to five to be able to balance everything. And an opportunity came up whereby I was able to go into the headhunting area and moved into headhunting. Executive search, technology roles, creative roles, studio roles in the games industry. And as much as I loved that, I could see that there was a real issue where organizations would want to find somebody that could just do their bidding, fix a particular issue. Or grow it in a particular way without actually realizing. I'll bring the oil and water scenario back. You're bringing somebody in who has maybe experienced a different cultural environment, may have their own baggage and they join a company and how, how do they traverse that and ensure that when they join everything or as much as everything can be aligned with goals, what's missing for them to be able to adjust, how do you create trust, etc. So that was the beginning of, of my realization that this is what, what needed to happen. And then one day, one day I just again, it didn't happen that quickly, but one day I decided actually headhunting isn't really pure play. Headhunting isn't right. Need to be able to support people in their transition. Which is why I started forward back in I think 2013, so 10 years ago.

Wow. I mean that's, that's. It's impressive to can. It's lovely that you've been able to connect the dots, you know, to see that actually those people will struggle and given, given the significant chunk of cash that organizations pay on headhunters to get talent in. Because that's an issue in itself, isn't it? Globally with recruiting talent. Because you know, the so called. And I'm not sure I like the term necessarily, but we've had organizations globally have done a cull year on, year on and it's been happening for a long time to the point where actually the only people left are good people. So actually reducing the numbers, when they're having to reduce numbers, good people are having to be let loose. So there's a, there's a real grab for talent and it's a real challenge. So they invest all this money in recruiting someone which could be up tens of thousands of pounds, dollars, lots of money basically. And unfortunately they don't integrate them. So I love the fact that you've connected the dots and you've realized and seen and obviously convinced organizations that this is something that is really, here's your investment. You now need to help them transition into your new culture so that this person can succeed and tap into their best, their full potential.

Absolutely. Because it's very, I've seen it time and again where people don't necessarily trust the person that is about to join. There's often crossed wires, there's a misunderstanding of agendas, all of those different challenges that can create the headwinds that prevent somebody from being successful. And too often organizations or leaders in organizations aren't able to identify that that is an actual truth because you know, denial is very strong in all of us, we and change and trying to rectify that is, is a lot of hard work. So this great shortcut to ensure that people are able to, to find out really what the, what, what the goals, desired state outcomes need to be and you know, what, what the issues are that need to be fixed. So yeah, that system that I have, which I include in the book and also just with regards to what, how it's done, which I can summarize now, so people have something to take away is just really profoundly important. And when people hear about it, they're like, yeah, that's common sense. And it's like, I know, I mean HR do great job of creating onboarding programs. They're going to be in encyclopedic knowledge on how to go, how to navigate systems. But how do you navigate the human dynamics within the organization to be able to reach those desired outcomes? Because a lot of the stuff is actually unspoken. The politics are often unspoken, the culture issues are often unspoken which prevent people from potentially being successful. And when those people are hired, it's not just about paying the headhunter, whatever tens of thousands of pounds or dollars. It's really a case of how, if you've made, if you've hired somebody and it takes you two years to work out how they're going to be, that they're not successful or they didn't reach the ideal state outcomes, how much, how much did that new high cost, what, what level of retention? You know, when people join, sometimes people don't want to stick around with those new hires because it's like that oil and water, they're, there's just no compatibility there because there's no alignment from, from the very beginning, in the first 30, 60, 90 days and beyond where you can have those kind of check ins. So you know, think about if you lose people, how much is that costing? If you're, when you brought people on board for the first two years and they're not reaching their goals, what kind of wastage is there as well? The ROI is just, it's a big debatable topic of conversation and too often organizations don't do that retrospective assessment to be able to say, okay, this didn't work. It's really a sweeping under the rug type of thing because everybody's so busy being able to just achieve what they need to be able to achieve. So in terms of what, how the program works and anybody can take this away and integrate it, it's, it's, it's a very It's a very simple common sense process which is that when people join, just put it into a 90 days or 100 days program. So first week, I'm talking day four of that person's new of person joining. You have all of the stakeholders involved whereby they're together and you're talking what are the objectives? What, what are the, what's, where do you want the company to be in a year's time? What are the issues, what are the challenges, what are the opportunities? Just have that frank discussion. Everybody will use different language and they will have, but it provides everybody with the opportunity in that moment to share those goals and to raise it and for people to be able to, to, to see, okay, we have different issues, we have a different vision. How can that be, how can that be combined? I was talking to somebody just yesterday about Gen Z and while talking about Gen Z, Gen Zs need to know why they're doing something. They need to, they need to understand the purpose, what the outcomes will be, what, which I think is what incredibly emotionally intelligent and once they know they're able to get to it and it's like yes, etc, etc. You're going to lose that new raw talent that is essentially going where you don't offer that kind of 100 days coaching when they first join, you don't have a mentorship program, etc. Etc. You're going to lose that new raw talent that is essentially going to be taking the company through to you know, the next 2010, 20, 30 years. But that's going to be a very different system altogether. So you start off with a kickoff, you make sure somebody really documents that well. You get everybody to agree or disagree and negotiate the language.

Can I just interrupt there for a second Caroline, Are you running that, are you facilitating that that meeting?

Yes, do facilitate it for the simple reason that it enables people through the questions. As a coach and as you know, when you're asking the questions it's done in a way it's not in a project management style. It's really trying to understand, you know, where the opportunities and where the truth is and, and to be able to find out where the obstacles are to, so that they can, can be faced head on. That's why my book is called Elephants before Unicorns. You've got to understand what the issues are so you're able to move forward with that. So yeah, there's the facilitation throughout the, throughout those 100 days. But the reality is that the majority of organizations, they can do this without it. I mean for example, a woman that who's now at Microsoft, she, she, I worked with her at a different company before she moved to Microsoft and I worked with her on this program for her when she first joined that company and she's now taken that to Microsoft. So she, but she can do that because she's an hr, she's naturally coachy, if I can use that phrase, to be able to create that level of true integration because she wants success, she's a success and engagement leader, which I think is really, really important. So yeah, that is important. But then you start off with that level of engagement at the beginning then you coach people the new leader week on week to identify the issues. Often when a new leader joins there's a state nobody will want to present this in a particular with this level of transparency that I'm about to share with you because we're human, we don't want to be seen that we're failing. It's, you know the, the first 100 days is extremely disorientating for people. Even if they're join if they're being promoted within the organization, they have to behave in a different way. Often they move IC individual contributor to a leader, a manager. How do they evolve? How do they take off the old brand and evolve into their new brand and their new leadership stance? So that's why I coach every single week for that time. It gets to the point where they're able to transition then at the end and assessments are done. So strength finders assessment, leadership circle assessment, emotional intelligence, EQ 2.0 that I use. It's really important to ensure that the leader is able to understand their own DNA leadership DNA. So they're able, when an issue they're faced with an issue, they can interpret quickly what is going on in their brain from a psychological, let's call it a leadership psychological stance and how they're able to get through it to that next stage using strength. So combining where you are from an emotional perspective so you can handle things better to then go okay, here are my strengths. This is how I can traverse that and navigate it. And then at the end there's a 360. Yeah, incorporated a new 360 or not new 360 but a new part which isn't in my book, which is at the 50 day mark, bang on the 50 day mark. You have another one of those kickoff meetings with the same people because guess what? Agendas change.

Of course they do.

Narrative.

Surely anyone that works in the corporate world knows that, the goalpost shift. Yeah, quite regularly. Quite regularly. I'm just going to go back to what you said, which I found fascinating as well. You said the, the Gen Z population, you were speaking to someone and they have this real desire to want to know stuff and, and the why behind why they're doing stuff. Shouldn't everyone have that, that scratch scratched? You know, any employee should. It shouldn't, it shouldn't just be the, the Gen Z is what I'm saying. It should. Everyone should be in the picture. They should have clarity around why they're doing what they're doing. You know, what, what's, what's the purpose behind this? You know?

Yes, yes, I agree with you, but it's, everybody has their own reason for doing things, of course, and often with, with. And I'll give you, I'll give you an example of my son. He's not here to defend himself.

That's a good time to talk about him then.

I know he's 20, he's Gen Z film school. His greatest passion is to get the right frame, the right lighting and for everybody to be bought into that vision. So he is grappling with those dynamics right now and, and he's very creative and he's looking for everybody to be on board, but he doesn't know how to get everybody on board right now. So in terms of what we're saying about, you know, the purpose, the why and things like that, I think there's just so much information that people need to receive, interpretation, decode, reword, re so that they're able to say, okay, this is how it is. The problem is people don't usually have that kind of luxury. Yeah, it is a luxury and people need to earn a wage so they can pay their rent or their mortgage or the electricity bill or you know, whatever, whatever their education, you know, bills are. And often people just get so wrapped up, which I think is just the human condition so wrapped up in everything that is happening with the world that they can lose themselves, lose their why and notice how things evolve in time. And I think we all lose it at numerous stages. You know, on a Friday, for example, we could lose that way of working.

Why the hell am I doing it?

What am I doing? What did I accomplish? Is it, is it congruent with my values and where things are going and what I'm trying to achieve? It's, it's a very complicated system to be able to understand for ourselves what, what is our blueprint? What is our matrix or our system inside and how does that reflect with what's going on with, with the world or with the challenge at the moment? So going back to your podcast, which is you, you work out how people are able to regulate themselves from an emotional intelligence perspective so that they're able to be their best. The issue is, is that majority of people don't, don't take that time to be able to assess what they're about, what will provide fulfillment, what will provide meaning, what is it that will enable them to truly, you know, soar and you know, what they're prepared to negotiate with or not negotiate is. It's very complicated.

Well, that's why, that's why it's fascinating as a coach because we've always got stuff to work with, right? So I, I find it fascinating, and you've probably seen this in your own coaching career is when you ask someone what is it that they want? Oh yeah, they, they just bleat out actually interestingly, they knee jerk to well, I don't want this and I don't want that and I don't want this and I don't want that. And it's sort of a whole list of what they don't want. And I, I said okay, well I've got a really good list of all the things you don't want. Let's go back to the question what, what is it that you want? So, and most people on the planet struggle with okay, so what is it that you want? And, and that. And I don't, I think it's because we're in, in this sort of pace. You know, everything's next, next, next, next, next. The corporate world for the last 20 years has been non stop next, next, you know, the, the, the phones, the next time, emails, all that stuff is really sped things up. So in the old days it used to be, well that's a really good question. Let me sleep on it. Let me come back to you next week with a really considered answer. And, and that's giving respect to the person that's asked a tricky question. But nowadays it's like I'm under pressure to answer immediately, like within 30 seconds I've got to have a bang response that's really robust that, you know, satiates that, that need for knowledge or whatever it is that the client's asking for. So I find it fascinating that bit. What I'm really keen to, I'm keen to understand the, how you're helping organizations. So you're, I'm guessing and I'm only guessing so I want to hear Your what you're doing specifically and, and how that might differ around the world. You're, you're over in Canada now and so what's the environment like over there specifically? Or are you, are you doing this globally with, obviously with global organizations you're working with, but is it specifically a lot of your work, is it over in Canada or is it all around the. The place? And are you using the ei, your EI tools to recruit, so are you using that before they get interviewed, etc.

Okay, thank you for that. Great question. I'm going to go back to the point that you just made a few minutes ago, which was about asking the question, what do you want? I want to invite people to think is to plant a seed in your mind, which is what if you are allowed to dream what you want, spend a few weeks just dreaming, Give yourself permission to dream what you want. What do you need? What do you want? And just go away and think about it. Just go away and think about it. I had two people that I was working with this summer and I gave them that exact question because I could see they were agitated. They felt like they needed to get a result in a particular way. And I said, how about if I just give you permission to dream?

Yeah, I love.

Oh, I feel so much more relaxed now. Thank you. And it's like, just, just do that. So there we go. That, that's my gift to your audience.

I like that. That's a gift to me as well because I, I typically do it a slightly different way. I just sort of say, okay, well, you know, you're, I'm inviting you to use a journal. So in your journal, you know, on a daily basis for the next couple of weeks, just write down all the things that you want. No, you know, there's no. You can. Doesn't matter what it is. Just write down things that you want on a daily basis for the next couple of weeks. Just keep on writing the list down and then let's come back to that list in, in a couple of weeks time.

Awesome, awesome.

A different sort of way. But I like the dream piece because actually as adults we become terminally serious and we think, yeah, well, like I can't do that because I haven't got the budget or I can't do this and you know the whole reason why they can't do stuff.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It. Because that's what it's about. You're otherwise. How, how do you create these new, these new goals without thinking with what. Creating the what ifs and why nots and you know, just going down that path. So to answer your question, which is which was my, my clients and do I use EI tool? So even though I'm based in Vancouver, British Columbia, in Canada, west coast, most of actually virtually all of my clients or in America, which I love. So I've, I've had clients in New York, Louisiana, San Francisco, Seattle, Oregon, Atlanta, Texas, dc, pretty much everywhere. I've also had lots of clients in Europe, I've had clients in Singapore, Australia. I love having clients around the world. And I think because I've got a, I've lived internationally or I feel like I'm a global citizen, I grew up in Singapore, I've lived in Australia, I've lived in the uk, Ireland and Canada. Yes, A lot of British colonies there. But I had a real chance very early on when I was not even double digits to living in Singapore to get a real sense of different cultures. That was just probably the most important blueprint for me, which made me very curious about, you know, human dynamics and how that all works. But the tools that I use vary depending on really what the, what the client needs at a particular time. I love using the emotional intelligence tool because it enables people to see how their, they are in a particular situation. It brings forth their, their stress tolerance, their level of empathy. It enables me as a coach to be able to identify or really help them know where they need to go when they might feel stuck. So from an empathy perspective, let's say they're really low in empathy or really low on self esteem, which is actually really hard for people when they've got low self esteem. They're usually very, very stressed out. And so I provide them with tools once I'm able to identify where they're at, to be able to ask, give them questions to, so they're able to ground themselves into, for, for a particular situation so they're able to evolve. I love doing EQ 2.0 assessments with couples and I'm talking about people that live together.

Yeah.

In a relationship as well as people when they're leaders and how people may see things in a different way so they're able to communicate more effectively. And, and the, the strength finders as well. It's very, very helpful because often people won't understand why their partner at work or partner at home are unable to. They're like, why does this person focus on this all the time? Well, guess what, that's their strength and your strength's here, so you won't understand it. So this is how you're able to work in a more collaborative and supportive way to partner well. So it's a lot of fun. I mean I have to say it's a lot of fun. It's not like being a doctor where you just say here, here's a prescription for this. It's, it's very collaborative. Which is why I think coaches are really, really important for, for people, you know, coaches. I, I'll rewind a second. When I was doing my certification as a, as an executive coach over a decade ago, what I found was that there were a lot of psychologists there and therapists and the penny dropped for each of them which is that they were like, oh, instead of just listening, I'm able to, to go into coach mode to help them move forward from this. Yeah, that was my realization that actually a coach is so incredibly useful to anybody like gather coaching friends people because you're able to accelerate your understanding that can enable you to grow in such a more dynamic way.

Yeah. I often think about coaching as future based as opposed to past based. You know, so therapy typically does do a lot of past based stuff and digs into that in a, in a very deep way. And, and it's powerful. You know, I, I'm okay as a, a bloke, as a British guy to admit that I've, I've had some bouts of therapy and it's been massively transformational. Helped me sift through some of the stuff that I was struggling with at a, you know, certain times in my life. So there is a place for therapy for sure. And interestingly, and I'm not sure about your own experience, but I've only, in the hundreds of people I've worked with over the last 20 odd years as a coach, I've only actually referred to that I didn't believe were coaching or coachable, if that makes sense. They definitely needed therapy and it was out of my field of expertise. So you know, they, they, I recommended them to somebody and they, they went and had some therapy which was fantastic.

Good, good, good. So I would, from a coach to coach perspective, there's a course that I'm about to do, it's with the Psychologist association and it's about trauma, being able to read into trauma loops that have. And I just thought to myself, I really need to understand this because sometimes you can't see what's actually blocking somebody from evolving because this past traumas and sometimes they're not going to be aired. So yeah, so I'm going down that particular path as well. Right now because it's, it's very exciting.

Very exciting. I'm. It sounds like you're. On occasion you do get to do the, the sort of the EI stuff with someone before you recruit them. But it also sounds like if I'm writing, hearing what you were saying earlier was part of your transition. You actually do the strengths and you do do the EQ stuff with them so that they've got a better sense so you can coach them around that as well as their. Is that right? Am I writing?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean just, just so you know, last year I stopped headhunting for the simple reason that I wanted to be a pure play coach. Okay. So that's, that's, that's, that's my transition. But I still do 100 days coaching for people that have just joined a company or not been promoted within organizations. So that's, that's a staple. And it's just, it's, it's, it's my favorite thing because it's my favorite thing. I love that it's my favorite thing because it's the transformation. I mean the end goal is to create trust, harmony and, and for, for people to be able to move on successfully.

Yeah.

Within the organization to create the ideal state outcomes. So that's really what that's all about. That's just like so, so incredibly important. And the other aspect as well, leadership isn't just about, you know, leadership presence. Leadership is also about how people are moving leaders. Sorry, how leaders are moving their organization and their teams and their product forward that's aligned with esg, so environmental, societal and governance and sustainability challenges. So everything related to the net zero goals which I became qualified in last year with MIT and also most recently with AI business strategy with MIT that I just completed as well. So, you know, the future organization or the future leader needs to harness all of these different aspects. Leadership with people, leadership with, with self, leadership with business strategy, esg, especially when it relates to what's necessary for what Gen Z are looking for. And obviously with AI, because integration of AI strategy is of paramount importance. So that's kind of where the business is at right now. And the emotional intelligence perspective is that we all need to. And I want to find, I'm going to find a different term for this in a second. But we all need to be emotionally intelligent and for this. And what I mean by being emotionally intelligent for this is to be able to be open, accepting, curious, to be able to learn and grow and to, and, and to be able to influence and socialize you know, the way forward because there's no going back.

Yeah. You've just described, I suppose, a growth mindset as opposed to a fixed mindset. So no longer. No, no, no. But you, you couches quite nicely into Caroline's. Goodness me, what's her surname? The lady that did. Carol Dweck. It was, it was Carol Dweck who did the mindset stuff on growth and fixed mindset. And, and, and we can't really stay in that fixed mindset anymore. We've, you know, you've just given a good example of, of we need to be more flexible, basically, as we move forward as an organization. And it's interesting because we've not really delved into the EI stuff specifically as such, but you've talked about the reason that you became really passionate was that you saw it specifically. It wasn't playing out well. You knew that the boys and girls weren't playing nicely in the sand pit together and in the different roles. You know, it's so typical of a, a global team or a board of directors where they've all got different agendas. So of course they don't particularly support one another. I partnered with. I'm an authorized partner of Lencioni's stuff because I, I read his book years ago, the Advantage. I don't know whether you've come across his work at all, Caroline. Really, really good book. He's pro. It's probably one of the best leadership organizational books I've read for a while. But I, I must admit I haven't read yours yet, so it must.

That's okay. I need to read yours. It's.

It's sort of like an addition to. So it helps, doesn't it? Sort of stacks on top of your knowledge base. But Lencioni's work, you, you might have read his other, one of his other books, Five Dysfunctions of a Team. So he's got the five levels of dysfunction. And of course, at the foundation of that fundamental p. Leadership framework is trust. And ultimately emotional intelligence is completely built on that. So if you've not got trust, you don't go. You can't have healthy conflict, so you and I can't have a, a healthy discussion. We would just be in conflict. If I didn't trust you, I'd be thinking, yeah, but you're trying to be sneaky and conniving and there's a reason behind why you're trying to couch this forward and not really listen to my view and opinion. So we don't have healthy conflict and if you can't have healthy conflict, you don't move to the next level, which is commitment. So I then don't commit, I then don't take any accountability, which then has an impact on the results. So the model's quite robust. So his stuff is really, really powerful. And it's interesting because he uses, did used to use Myers Briggs but now uses Disk. My preference is EI because I just believe that that sort of hands down beats all the other models because actually you can tap into the patterns of behavior. You can see the patterns of behavior within a leader and their team. So I don't know whether you do much team EI stuff or organizational EI stuff because you know, the people that I became qualified with some 20 years ago, they've got a different model to Goleman. So I don't use the Goldman model. I use their model and their model is different. It'd be good to actually have a conversation about that on another occasion. The differences between the, the models because there's not a lot of difference. I suppose the significant difference is that the model that I've been using for some, some time now measures, I think it's the Carlsberg of the EI tools that are available. So it measures the bits that other, the others don't. So it measures self regard and regard for others which comes from as you know, transactional analysis. And I, I as a coach find that absolutely brilliant because it allows me to understand their life positions, you know, the lens with which they see themselves and how they see other people. And it's really, really powerful when working one on one definitely with leaders. So we can have a conversation about that another time perhaps. Tell me a bit more about elephants, Elephants before Unicorns because I know you've, you say it's sort of like, like laying out your model, but so yeah, yeah, yeah, there's the book and I'll put a little photo on, on this recording so that we. So listeners can actually get it. It's available on Amazon. I'm not sure where else it's available but is that the best place to get it?

I think it is. They, they deliver so quickly and they're the prices very competitive. I think that's fine. I know that I was actually speaking with my book publisher yesterday and they said yeah, got stock in the uk. It's like brilliant. Glad to hear. So yeah, I know it's, I know it's, it's there. I just don't actually, I don't know where it's being being sold. Right now, other than Amazon in the uk. So yeah, elephants before unicorns. So I actually have a workplace diagnostic in there that I created that is, is an advancement of the EQI assessment tool that MHS created. And it's what I mean by advancement is more of a socially societal, societal and cultural awareness on how people perceive leadership in the organization, what kind of stand it makes within the environment, how it communicates, how people are trained and what have you. So it goes beyond the self and which is obviously what an EQI tool will do and how people might assess you or in and your behaviors, how you present yourself within an organization or how you present yourself within the world. But I take it one step further with the workplace diagnostic on how the organization is emotionally intelligent based on societal and cultural expectations today. And when this book came out, it was six months before COVID 19, before the pandemic. And I remember thinking it's like, oh, this is such a pre pandemic book because everyone's mindset has now changed. Everything has changed. And while there's lots of rationale in here about why organizations need to have more productive one one to ones, how to support their leaders and what have you, there's. There's so much new context post pandemic to why we should be doing things in a particular way. Now the adjustment in language I've found from a linguistics perspective to be actually quite profound and deeper than I think the majority of people realize. But it's almost like unless you're reading a utopian or a dystopian book where it's set in the future, when you're reading something from the past that's set in a particular time, like there's something missing here, but there's a lot of tools in here. There's a lot of guidance, a lot of practical guidance that enables people to understand how to work with humans. So they're able to, I'm going to use the cliche, do their best work, how to create that kind of engagement from, from the time people are hired, how to onboard them, how to retain them. So that's really the, the crux of the book and how organizations need to echo their, their both their internal brand to align with their external brand. Because I'm sure you've heard on numerous occasions how you'll see a company, I'm not going to mention any in particular, but you see their product, you see their brand, you see what they stand for and then the internal system is actually quite different.

Yeah, yeah, no, you see the values on the wall but they're not espousing any of those.

No, because there's and, and there's that gap, that creative, critical gap attention that is, that is really hard for organizations to be able to adapt to because often it's just a survival instinct within an organization to keep on going. They've got to reach their weekly goals, their, their, their quarterly targets, they've got to satisfy stake shareholders, they've got to do all of these different things. So this is why I've evolved into stakeholder capitalism, which is looking at how stakeholders are, are everything from your customer, your suppliers, your, the people within your organization. You know, how are you bringing all of these goals together to ensure that everybody is satisfied and everything is, everything is congruent with what you're trying to achieve. Of course you're going to be, you know, cracking a few eggs in the, you know, breaking a few eggs in the process. That, that's not easy, but that is the future. That is the way forward. So it, so whereas we talk about usually emotional intelligence from an individual's perspective so they can get on with the world, there's going to be the additional layer. You look at the nucleus of the human being. You've got that additional layer of how, how the organization, and then the additional layer beyond that of where how do you then communicate with the rest of the world or the rest of your stakeholders beyond that. So you've definitely got the three tiers there that need to be addressed.

I like that. Actually, it's a really good thought you've sprung off in my tiny little brain goes into. Yeah, that's cool. Because actually human beings need to be aligned skeletally. You have to be aligned so that your nervous system can operate properly. And it's similar to the organization, so they need to be aligned to the organization. So hence the work you're doing is significant. And, and I was sort of like, oh my God, I can't believe I've found somebody that's actually doing this, you know, and, and, and I was really excited when I, I snuck a note to you and you came back and said, yeah, let's bang the drum together about emotional intelligence. And, and yes, we're banging away. And I'm, I'm hoping that leaders are starting to, you know, figure this out. That actually to get the bottom line that requires people to do those things. So to be able to deliver on all those things they're asking the organization to deliver on, it's a human being behind that. And that human being has feelings and emotions and thoughts and they have behaviors and some of them might not be aligned to the culture that they're stepping into. So, you know, I find what you're doing is actually really nice and refreshing to hear. I'm not anywhere down that I've recommended the organizations that I've been working with over the years to actually start embedding this as something that they need to be thinking about for recruiting. Because what you're talking about is the initial investment of getting someone. So there's a huge cost to that. And then what you're then doing is you're asking the organization to invest on that investment so that it actually yields and they stay longer. So they're happy, happy people. You know, they're, they're engaged, they're motivated, they're driven, they have more energy and of course they'll go the extra mile. And one of the big things I've been saying for a number of years with anyone that I work with, you know, one on one, is that they're most important, a leader's most important role is to help their individuals, their team members grow their self regard, their self confidence, their self esteem. If you make me feel good about me and, and the job I'm doing, I will go the extra mile for you. And that's slowly, I think that's getting there. Getting there. But I think that there's so much focus on the bottom line, the, the target and the lack of awareness around the impact that, that, you know, that, that relentless push for next year, the. But you know, the line's going to go up again and then again and again. So there's further, more pressure. So how do people handle that pressure? Is the, the role that, where we, where I'm sure you play as well is how, how do you support those leaders to perform under pressure? Because when things are going swimmingly well, it's really easy to tap into your best. But when shit's happening and curveballs are getting thrown and you've got hundreds of emails that you're coming back to after holiday, etc, how do you operate under pressure there? That's what I'm fascinated by. And I'm sure you, you know, you get to play in that field as well. Of course.

Well, let's look at the pandemic as a great example. There was such a boom during the pandemic. Everything just, just okay. There were a lot of businesses were closed, traditional businesses systems were closed because people weren't able to go to the, you know, the pub or the restaurant or you know, the stores or Whatever. So online shopping suddenly, you know, search, look at peloton surged. Everybody was super happy. Games industry searched because everybody had, you know, 2020. They had to, they had nothing to do other than sit and watch games or play games and watch Netflix and you know, and maybe, you know, go on their peloton. So that was it. They had to stay in their bubble. And nobody knew how long that would last for. Nobody could tell that, you know, it would be a two year process to, to battle out of that. But what happened, and you'll know this, everybody will know this, is that sales were going up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up. And organizations didn't reflect to say to, to, didn't reflect to correct the fact that there was this amazing surge like wartime for particular stuff, but that it would then decline. I knew analysts, analysts were saying at the time, we are going to be in for a major shock with inflation after all of this has, has, has calmed down. And MIT was saying the same thing that it's going to take 10 years for this recovery to happen and so on and so on and so on. But corporate would just completely perplexed. Why is it that we, we're, we're not having Facebook ad sales go up. Why have we got this problem? Why we got that? It's like there was this addiction, insane addiction for it, which burned people out.

Yeah.

Which is why there was the, the, the, the great, what is it, what do they call it? The great resignation and all of these different things that were happening. It's very, very strange time. So what you were talking about just a few seconds ago was along the lines of how do you keep people motivated when all the targets are going up? And the answer I believe to that, whether it's in wartime, stroke the pandemic or post war time, stroke inflation time, which is basically just like post Second World War, it took 10 years for the world to recover and then go through a new trajectory, which I believe we're in right now, which is that you've got to get closer from a human perspective to your people. You've got to communicate and be very candid about the challenges, the opportunities. Because people can see spin, people can see fake news, they can see when that, you know, that it's not aligned or congruent and people are concerned about people being laid off, people concerned about themselves being laid off. And that is, is a very difficult situation right now. Recruiters, for example, are having the worst time I think that I've seen since 2007 during the, the, the, that the, the major economic crisis back then where, because there was that economic crisis and the same thing happened in 911 where there was a hiring free. So all the recruiters are laid off and they're, they're, they're experiencing the darkest days right now because organizations aren't hiring or if they are hiring they, I believe there's a gap in what they think they need to do because they haven't done an upgrade on where their organization needs to go, which is being ready for Gen Z, which is being ready for the AI revolution, which has been happening for 10 years anyway. If you've used a chat bot, you've been using AI. If you've been using a system on a phone and voice recognition, you've been using AI. If you've got Google Assistant is AI. If you remember Clippy on your Microsoft Word 10, 20 years ago, that's AI. You know, all of those basic aspects are, you know, pure play AI and then you've got esg, environmental, societal and governance. All of those different aspects that organizations are going to be expected to adhere to anytime soon. So there's a lot going on and organizations need to really do an upgrade on where, where their organization and their people need to go. They need a target rather than focusing just on quarterly targets because there is.

Too short term and, and that's the same. You know, I used to be in the pharmaceutical industry and worked for AstraZeneca, Boehringer Ingelheim and I, you know, I, I carry, I, I was a drug rep, you know. So yeah man, and then, and I used to say, I used to say a lot that I used to sell drugs and then qualify that it was the legal stuff. So I'm not some Pablo Escobar fella. But the, the interesting thing is it was always the same the nhs and you'll be familiar with the nhs having lived here in the UK for many years is year on year it's about a budget for that year and if it was a longer term budget they'd be able to prescribe the, the more expensive drugs because that's a, a clever way of doing it instead of going from the, the cheapest drug first and then if it doesn't work so 40% get healed with the cheaper drug but then 60 have to go on to the next one. That's more so. But if you actually get them first, if you give them first line treatment, which is the best drug, you'd save all that budget you and it, it's because it's a yearly budget that they can't take that other approach. And very similar to organizations, it seems to be that, you know, you get to the end of the year and already, you know, companies will be clambering around thinking about next year. But as a rep, we were always taken away on conference in January to then launch that year's stuff, you know, and it's sort of like, hang on, we should have been doing this back in October, getting ready for January next year. And I. And it's still the same, still operates the same way, which is just crazy. But you spoke about a number of things there, and I'm, I'm really interested because I'm certainly out of awareness around the impact and the awareness of organizations around the stuff that you've just spoken to the AI, the environmental stuff. So what's your sense of that currently? Where are they in the dark with this completely? What, what, you know, who, who are you talking to in organizations that has a, you know, the finger on the pulse with this. Are there many that have got their finger on the pulse with this stuff that you're, you're, you're talking about? Caroline?

It's usually the governance, governance people within organizations that are trying to influence the, the level of work that needs to be done. But the resistance is, is, is huge. No.

So is this the risk? Is this the people that typically manage the risk within an organization is that, oh, it's legal.

Risk governance, legal. So I, I'll, I'll. I gave this example to somebody quite recently, which is that I remember back at Sony gajillions of years ago when a new. When we had to adhere to a system or a legal requirement, we'd have the legal guy come along, lovely guy, and he would come along and he would sit down quietly and say, okay, Caroline, we need, you need to know that this is happening. And I go, okay. And he's having this nice conversation with me, and I need to adjust. The issue is most organized. And I, I was up for it because it's like, I don't want to get into trouble. Trouble. Trouble is not something that we need to do here. We need to avoid those issues because we've got to reach, you know, these ideal goal state outcomes. I did not use that language back then. But what I'm saying here is that if we all sat down with legal and had a roadmap or strategy and analytics now, and we're able to see what's coming down the pike in 2, 3, 4, 5 years time, so we could all collectively strategize and collaborate and partner together on what we need to do so there can be all the adjustments. The world would be a fantastic place. So these are the people that I believe, everybody. So this is, this is my takeaway for everybody. Sit down with these people, find out what's on what's on the roadmap. Be open to learning about what it is that's going on. If you're already doing it, that's fantastic. If it's already being influenced, that's fantastic. If you're working your leadership jobs on these areas, that's fantastic. If you're not, just start by having conversations, take people out for coffee, take people out for lunch. Because it's absolutely fundamental to see that. So you're not surprised. Covid was a surprise, for example, the pandemic. I mean this was a universal, everything happened at once type of situation. These situations are happening now with governance, cybersecurity, technology, all of these different areas, AI, which we've talked about, esg, all of these areas will be impacting how our business operates. It's like how we, how we do that is going to be very important. The leaders in organizations and the people who want to rise up in an organization needs to be system. Systems thinking needs to have a systems thinking mindset to be able to see how everything is interconnected so they're able to then, you know, progress of, put, put forward the best strategies and, and execute in, in a way. The socialization of how that happens is obviously going to start from the top. It requires real leadership thinking to come from the top for, for the, for the CEOs and the C suite, to set the bar really, really high and to start socializing that, start socializing the okrs in a, in a way that isn't just annual. So to answer your question, you know, am I working with people that do that? I work on a grassroots perspective when I'm coaching people, you know, there may be senior directors or whatever, so I'm giving them some kind of guidance on what they could be looking out for, which enables them to, you know, contribute in ways that they have they hadn't before. But then obviously there's. The leaders that are in there are either founders, VC startups or whatever. And they usually, because they're nimble, they have to see where all the headwinds are so they're able to dodge them or leap over them in a faster way. So it really does depend on the client. Every client is different.

I get what you were saying earlier. Well, I get what you're Saying about Roadmap, what I didn't get was I trying to get my little pea brain wrapped around the AI stuff, which is, is so who's having coffee with who? So you were saying go and have a coffee with. So who, who are you recommending to have a coffee with? Are you? So that's what I'm a little bit confused about. So sit down and have a coffee and have a chat. But who with is it sit down and have a coffee and chat with people like yourself that are abreast of this or, or who?

I think so it depends on the person. So if I was to start an in an organization or I was interviewing, I would want to know what their AI strategy is.

Okay.

And I think I was quoted in Harvard Business Review about this. When you're in an interview and you just see a blank, it's because they just haven't thought about it or they're not necessarily the right person to be asking that question. But in general ask what's your AI strategy? What's your ESG strategy? Where does the company need to be? What? Where does the company. How does the company need to evolve? How do you ensure that leaders within the organization are upskilling in a timely way to ensure that they don't leave to the competitors where people are able to then feel like their career is being managed well, all of that kind of stuff.

Stuff.

So if it's at the interview stage, ask it at the interview stage. Don't wait until you join the company. And then when you do join the company, start with the kickoff meeting whereby you, you ask, you invite people, the, the those people to be involved so the goals are potentially aligned. Or there's the, there's the understanding. So going back to when you were at AstraZeneca and you worked as in sales. So your in sales you would potentially find that your clients, if it's present day, might say so how are you ensuring that the plastic materials aren't going to contaminate the environment? That would be an ESG question. For example, how are you ensuring that this. Your customer or client might say how are you ensuring that this, this doesn't create financial issues for the end user? All of these different things. How do you ensure that you're able to maintain production of this over the next 24 years? What's your supply chains system and things like that? All of these full system questions that Gen Z might be actually interested in. But to understand that. So there is complete stakeholder alignment and support and I've got one Client that has a, has a, has a value which is give a shit. It's like people are expected to give a shit. Excuse my language. Hope not offending anyone is like, how do you ensure that they, that people are really committed, that they really care, that they have real genuine ownership, that they genuinely want to ensure that the company can be sustainable for the long term? You know that these are the questions that I believe people should be asking and clients sense will be asking of, of these people. So you need to become an expert. There's no such thing as an ic. People expect all the person to be the full package. If you remember with the movie industry, it was about 10, 15 years ago, people could consider, ah, this actor, they're a triple threat. Threat. They can sing, they can dance, they can skydive. No. Yeah, now it's skydive. Then they can be actors. So the quadruple threat, they're probably required now like Tom Cruise and it' they, they need to be a triple threat if they're going to be considered as a talent. Same thing in an organization. They need to have the full spectrum of knowledge for an individual to be able to be, you know, successful. If they're lacking in a particular area, it requires a very empathetic leader to be able to go, okay, we can see that this person is really great at that function. We're going to keep them as it is. They're happy, that's great. But too often organizations want to see AAA quality, standard talent, otherwise they see that they're not being engaged. So it's about putting that extra effort in for everybody, all the time, all at once.

So I'm gonna, I'm asking this question for me and I just want to recap on the ESG because it's really easy to get caught up in jargon. So I'm, I'm going to admit to hearing it for the first time. Esg. I've not heard that terminology, Caroline. So, you know, maybe I've had my head in the, in the sand for some time and just not heard it. And maybe I've not been moving in the right circles. But. So remind me of the three things that, that, that little short.

So ESG is environmental, societal and governance. Okay. So what it is is that you, you're looking after the environment with the product that you're creating and the environmental. Yeah, environment. So you're creating things that, things products, services that have a, a far lower carbon footprint. Because I can see it coming around the corner. We can all see it coming around the corner which is that organizations are going to be taxed to the hilt if they don't have, have a low carbon footprint. One of the reasons I believe Microsoft has it and all these different things to offset it is really important.

As you say those three headings, I get it immediately because I then get. Okay, well now I'm, I understand it's just a different jargon that I've not, I've not heard before. So esg I've not heard in that phrase. But sorry, I interrupted you explaining.

That's fine. And then with societal, it's about how you're ensuring. So if you buy, if you're manufacturing products in India, are you making sure that. Excuse me, if you're buying products or you're making producing products in India or Taiwan or Chile or whatever, you're buying jewelry from somewhere, has it been sourced in a sustainable way that ensures that you're not basically, you know, stripping the resources out of the, the country or the, the environment or the people that are actually doing it? Are they earning a sustainable wage? Are they, are they being respected? Are the working conditions good? Good. So that's.

Yeah, lots of organizations have been pulled up for that and we, we've seen some of those global stories, of course.

Yeah, exactly. But it also is. Comes back home as well, which is, you know, having that same mentality for, for your local environment in, in the workplace and as you know. So when with the EU for example, they will have a, have a different, different standards, different employment laws, different standards for, you know, housing, employment, all of these different things. So. And organizations need to be on top of that otherwise they get fined. So when those EU regulations are in place or the American regulations or whatever regulations this will. That's usually the indicator for an organization to make those changes. The issue is, is that really from a human and societal perspective we should be thinking in a sustainable and caring way anyway, that's what Gen Z are expecting, for example.

So organizations need to be abreast of this before they get forced into it Is, is really where you're coming from? Is that right?

Absolutely. Because, because there's nothing worse. And I've seen it time and again when a regulation comes in and everything has to change and it's like, well, where was the one year road map before that? So we could make that kind of change or the two year roadmap because we can all see that things are going to be changing, you know, which is profoundly important. And the governance aspect, which is exactly the same. It's all it's all connected with. And it's so deep, it's such a deep in system. So ESG, if you look at MIT's website specifically on this and they, they call it business sustainability, it's not just about doing the right thing from Planet It. It's also, and it's, it's just the way the world is going because we can't keep stripping the resources, resources being human beings as well, to ensure that, you know, an organization can be profitable. It's just a very, very different way of business, business life that is going to be happening and everybody needs to have some kind of insight on, on where it's going, haven't have an opinion and even if the opinion is negative, at least as an opinion, but the, the way forward is inevitable. So people may as well start researching it. Even if it isn't, even if it's outside of your swim lane, even if it's out, because it's all going to be connected. You're going to be expected to do it. And there's nothing worse than hearing an organization just grumble the way through it. I mean, how much there's such a, there's such wastage when, when that happens, you know, you can, you can, organizations can anticipate all of these, these activities because you've usually got legal team internally, you've got strategists internally, you've got analysts internally. There's so much data out there, you just have to subscribe to MIT's magazine or website to be able to see everything coming down. It's coming down. And the change, the opportunities that are, that are ahead of, of, of all of us.

I, I think the, the AI is another conversation because it's, it's a big conversation and I, it deserves its own episode. Caroline. So I, I'm going to be asking here, here and now, can, can we commit to coming back and having a proper conversation about love too? Because I'll be picking your brains like a little woodpecker trying to understand. Okay, so how's this playing out? What, what do organizations need to do? So many people that I've heard having conversations about AI are terrified and, and this is just the, the normal folk in, in jobs. Not, I'm, I'm not talking about senior leaders that are talking about this. These are the people that have got everyday jobs, but they're absolutely terrified about this and how it could potentially transform the working world and potentially replace, you know, millions and gazillions of jobs. And that's, that's not, that's not a great place to be hearing. Okay, so what is it really? So.

Because I don't talk about that but I think the. To ensure people aren't left hanging my. I encourage people to research it again. MIT is such a great place to. Even. Even though a lot of it is overwhelming, it's. It's just, just become like a pig in dirt and just get into it. Because when, when you're able to at least start understanding, then that's where the growth comes. And I write about that my book from understanding comes growth. But the other thing as well is upskill. Upskill, upskill. So going back to the beginning of this conversation where it's like dream. Think about where you want to upskill. What is it that is really going to drive you? Because once you can connect rather than being all fear based which is understandable. There's a lot of people that once chat GPT came out last November and everybody was, you know, incredibly impressed and scared simultaneously. What was happening is that there was this huge excitement, dread, all of the emotions that you can possibly imagine all happening at once. Very overwhelming, very unnerving. But it's actually a tool. So AI is a tool that organizations are able to use in so many different ways. And there's automate automation, it's just all sorts of things. So my TED talk talks about that. The person that did the forward of my book Elephants for Unicorns, his name is Daryl West. He's author of the Future of Work Robots, AI and Automation. He and I got together going, okay, the world is changing really rapidly. Nobody's ready for it. Well, only the techs are ready for it. And, and the real visionaries could, could see where it was going. But the opportunity is that these are tools. AI, automation, robotics, they are tools to help us do whatever we need to do.

Yeah.

Moving forward. And the people that are scared about it, it. How can you upskill? How can you incorporate your human knowledge into a technology solution to enable you to do the work better? If you can go in with that mindset, it's going to you. You're gonna, you're gonna sleep a lot better at night.

Yeah, no, I like that. I like that. Instead of being afraid of the unknown, get close to it.

Definitely know your enemy getting in there.

Okay, before we, before we end this episode then Caroline, can you just do me a favor and just shout out your website and any other connections, whether it's Instagram or, or whatever and then I'll, I'll type them up on this video in the edit so that people can get in contact with you if they're looking to.

So on Instagram, I'm just. And LinkedIn and Facebook. Yeah. Twitter. It's not Twitter anymore, it's X. You just find me at O Caroline Stokes, as in the. The letter O. O Caroline Stokes. And my website is www.theforward.co theforward co.

Perfect. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. I've had a ton of fun. I've learned a significant chunk of stuff. So I'm really grateful for that. So thank you, you. And let's come back and talk about AI and anything else that's gone on between this episode and when we come back and get another one scheduled in.

Fantastic. Thank you so much for inviting me and having me here.

Thank you. It's a pleasure and I'm looking forward to reading your book and I will definitely commit to sending you a copy of mine as well.

Awesome.

Okay, take care.

Thank you.

Ciao. Ciao. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Thank you for listening. Remember to share and subscribe to the EI Guru podcast and if you have any questions, you can post them. Once you've subscribed, you can follow me on Instagram at the eiguru and you can get more information from my website, theeiguru.com have a fantastic week. Bye for now.

Yeah, the working conditions good. So that's.

Yeah, lots of organizations have been pulled up for that and we, we've seen some of those global stories, of course.

Yeah, exactly. But it also is. Comes back home as well, which is, you know, having that same mentality for, for your local environment in the workplace and as you know. So when with the E.U. for example, though, they will have a. Have a different, different standards, different employment laws, different standards for, you know, housing, employment, all of these different things. So. And organizations need to be on top of that otherwise they get fined. So when those EU regulations are in place or the American regulations or whatever regulations, this will. That's usually the indicator for an organization to make those changes. The issue is, is that really from a human and societal perspective we should be thinking in a sustainable and caring way anyway, that's what Gen Z are expecting, for example.

So organizations need to be abreast of this before they get forced into it. Is. Is really where you're coming from. Is that?

Absolutely. Because. Because there's nothing worse. And I've seen it time and again when a regulation comes in and everything has to change and it's like, well, where was the one year roadmap before that so we could make that kind of change or the two year roadmap because we can all see that things are going to be changing, you know, which is profoundly important. And the governance aspect which is, is exactly the same. It's all, it's all connected with and it's so deep, it's such a deep system. So ESG, if you look at MIT's website specifically on this and they call it business sustainability, it's not just about doing the right thing from planet, it's also, and it's, it's just the way the world is going because we can't keep stripping the resources, resources being human beings as well, to ensure that, you know, an organization can be profitable. It's just a very, very different way of business, business life that is going to be happening and everybody needs to have some kind of insight on, on where it's going. Haven't have an opinion and even if the opinion is negative, at least as an opinion, but the, the, the way forward is inevitable. So people may as well start researching it even if it isn't, even if it's outside of your swim lane.