Theeiguruepisode6

Welcome to the EI Guru podcast, a podcast completely focused on emotional intelligence. Typically, the first question I get is what is emotional intelligence? In very simple terms, it's how we manage our emotions in our interactions with ourselves and others. Or put another way, it's being in the right state and, and not being in a state when under pressure. Emotional intelligence is another label for mindset, and we all know that when navigating those important conversations, we need to tap into our best. I'll be interviewing leaders and experts in this ever expanding field and sharing the data on why emotional intelligence is the difference that makes the difference in all of our relationships. Remember to share and subscribe to the EI Guru podcast and if you have any questions, you can post them once you've subscribed. Welcome to the latest episode of the EI Guru. I'm delighted to be joined this week by Ian Eggs, who I have worked with previously some years ago in another context, in one of his other previous leadership roles. Ian is a vice president in a multinational international company based in the US And I'm going to be sort of exploring a whole load of stuff with Ian. It's going to be a conversation, of course, and I'm curious to sort of unpick and sort of sift through his career to date and try and find out how emotional intelligence has played a significant role or has it played a significant role in, in Ian's career. So I suppose that's a sort of a, a lead into the conversation. Ian, so how much of a role has emotional intelligence played in your career to date as a, as a leader?

That's a great question. Jim. Hi, nice to, to meet you and speak to you again, I guess increasingly more.

Right.

So as a young leader or young guy starting out in my career wasn't very self aware, certainly wasn't very aware of others, so, so very little.

Right.

And then as you progress and do more things and get more experiences, you get exposed to some, some areas that, that expose yourself and make you self aware and self reflective and then suddenly you grow into, to, to that world a little bit more. So as, as my career has grown, progressed, I've been working now, you know, more than 40 years, 43 years or so, you get more and more, more and more into this stuff.

Right.

And, and in exploring it, meeting you, it was my first sort of formal exposure to it in the, in the, in a, in a formal sort of workshop area with my leadership team. And then from there just the curiosity, right, makes you go out and start reading a bit and investigating a bit. So, so, so more and more as time goes by, I guess.

I, I love the, you know, I love curiosity. It's one of my favorite traits in leadership. So I, you know, one of the thoughts I had was, okay, so if you had a leadership cookbook, what would be the key ingredients of your leadership cookbook? What would that. What would those ingredients be? To be a great. To be a great leader.

I think there are so many, and it's so wide. I think there's a. There's a few that really stand out to me, and they should be consistent. The first is really being very aware of your impact on others, on the culture around you, the team, how the team show up, how individuals show up. So being constantly aware, especially as the leader, you're under the spotlight all the time.

Right?

How I react in a situation, how I ignore or not walking past somebody in the corridor, how I. My facial expression to. To when something goes wrong, how I react to that. So just being absolutely 100 aware that every single thing I do is being looked at, watched, analyzed. And that can work both ways, right? Because, I mean, you can. You, you know, a chance conversation in the corridor can leave a lasting impression on somebody in both a positive and a negative way. And I think as leaders and the more senior you get and the more. The bigger the teams you get that you lead, it's more and more important that you're very aware of that many examples, both negative, negative and positive, of where that's played very positively and also where you think, oops, that was a mistake. I should have done that differently. So I think that's probably the first. First one. I guess the next page on the cookbook would be inspiring others. How do you inspire?

Yeah.

And you can. You can link that to engagement, you can link that to many other words or phrases. But at the bottom line, it's everything from framing a message to setting a vision, to installing confidence in reading that vision, to lighting the fire in the belly of your employees. That I want to do this. We're on this road together, and I want to follow you. So I think inspiring others is really, really important. So we've got aware of your impact on the culture, inspiring others. And I guess ultimately the last one is really about individual and team performance, is really a reflection on your leadership performance. So if I dig that a little bit more, you know, there's people on my team that are not performing. That's my responsibility. I need to be helping, coaching, challenging, giving them experiences where they can develop and ultimately if they're not, and they're not comfortable in that role, I need to find other roles for them where they can excel, using their strengths to excel and how the team perform and how individuals on my performance, really a reflection on me. So if my team is performing well and good, then that's great for me. If they're not, then that's also for me to solve. I think that's another really important page or recipe on the cookbook that's interesting.

Because really what you're talking about there is personal responsibility. You, you as a leader, taking personal responsibility for the results in terms of your individuals within your team. So taking full responsibility for your impact on them and owning. Because of course the buck stops with you anyway. But actually it's a really good insight to sort of say, yeah, their individual and team, the individual and team performance is down to you, you know, in terms of how you engage and inspire them as well.

Of course, yeah, you can take that to the next level.

Right.

Because if I select people to join my team, if I'm recruiting, if I'm sponsoring somebody, if I'm coaching somebody, mentoring somebody, all of that is my choice too.

Right.

So who I select, who I sponsor, who I develop is an important element as well. And then beyond those kind of very classic high level ones, there's some real core values you need to follow. Honesty, trust, transparency, building trust in the team, being approachable, certain ethical values that you need to define. I think you need to be very clear as a leader and especially as a young leader coming in and leading your first larger teams. What sort of behaviors are you going to accept and allow? How are you setting the scene for what's appropriate, not appropriate. And that's everything from turning up five minutes late to a meeting to, to dinners out with the guys after work. However you want to, however wide you want to make that you're the leader and what you do will have an impact on how the team and others respond. And you need to be clear on what that is.

Yeah, again, you're talking about stuff that is just so. It's music to my ears to hear you say all this. Not, I'm not surprised by it, but by the way, but actually what you're talking about is giving an example of what good looks like. So you're giving them, you're setting the expectations, early doors so that they know what the levels, what levels they need to attain, you know, to, to, you know, just hit the sort of the bare minimums if you like, because this is, these are the Sort of the expectations at least they then stand a chance of hitting. Hitting those expectations if you've articulated them clearly.

Yeah and often we don't.

Right.

So often we get annoyed at somebody's behavior and without self reflecting actually I've never really set that standard or I never really described that that's what I expect. So. Yeah that's absolutely right. It's quite an interesting expectation setting is really rather interesting. We spent quite some time in my current company looking at that so you know, in terms of normal performance appraisals, very corporate year end appraisals, goal setting etc. An interesting exercise to do for yourself and I did it just actually a couple of years ago was to sit down and write a couple of paragraphs what's expected of me.

Right.

And I'm not Talking about my KPIs or my goals and objectives or I need to make this much revenue and etc. It's really what's expected of me and the goals and objectives and the kbis that's given that's my job. But what's more than that?

Right.

So it's more about how you do that work. I'm expected to be a good corporate citizen. I'm expected to promote the company. I'm expected to treat my employees well with kindness, respect, honesty, trust, transparency. Those sort of things that, that, that wrap around you know the chord number because that's what, that's what really makes it work.

Right.

You can all, we can all set a number up on the door. It's about how you get there. That secretly is important and if you get all that piece right the numbers really take care of themselves. Yeah but writing that, the exercise of writing it is actually quite difficult but very enlightening and then if you get your team to do it you can share them across the team. It's really quite, quite interesting.

Yeah that's cool. I like that. I like that. I'm going to take that away with me and box it up I'm sure. I like that. It's very powerful and what you're talking about really is there's a number. So everyone's got, every organization's got a number, every team's got a hit and every individual has a number to hit. Whatever that is, whatever the role they are in. And what's interesting about all that which I think a lot of leaders do miss. I know you are very focused on this aspect. We're human beings so it's the human being that's. That's going to actually achieve that number for you in. Within the organization. And there they are, people that have got emotions and feelings and, you know, and behave certain ways. So it's, that's so fascinating, you know, being able to sort of almost like. It's like being a conductor as a leader. I always think of it as that you're conducting their, you know, supporting their performance, getting the best out of them. And you talked about coaching earlier and I know you're, you know, that's a key aspect. That's one of. That would definitely be in your recipe cookbook for sure, you know, being a great coach. What I'm curious about for you is who influenced your, who has influenced your leadership career? You know, throughout your leadership, are there people that you've come across that you could say, yeah, this particular leader could be your parents? I don't know. I'm just curious as to who has influenced that along your way.

There's many. Jim, yourself included in that list.

Right.

So if I go back all the way to very early days. So a young, young. I'm an electromechanical technician by education, a young engineer working for the BBC, 22 years old. I'm working in the graphic design department with a colleague, Tom. Hopefully he'll hear this. He's long retired now, but he was, he was maybe 25, 30 years older than me, but we were good mates. He got me playing rugby at that age and, and got me down the BBC rugby club for many years. But he was, he was really the first influence in terms of how do you set your, your kind of ethical values.

Right.

So he was, there was, there was a supervisor position suddenly coming up for grabs in the, in the company. And he was encouraging me to go after this.

Right.

Which was rather interesting as a, as a very young, newly trained apprentice technician.

Yeah, 22 years old. I mean, you're still a young snapper.

Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, he, he obviously saw something in me, which is great. I appreciate that. But it was the coaching around, you know, the honesty, the transparency. How would I deal with a guy that's worked there 30 years as such a young guy? How would I tackle, you know, performance issues? How would I deal with being one of the new guys to suddenly be their supervisor? So just really coaching me through a lot of that, ready for that interview, but also giving me some life experiences.

Right.

And I think the, that, that was really, really the first major impact. And then obviously the rugby club and everything that goes around, that, the comradeship there, the team stuff there, the, you know, being captain, secretary, Whatever. There's lots of leadership things you pick up along the way. Then if I jump probably a decade or a little bit more than a decade, maybe two, I'm suddenly in France working for another big multinational company, American multinational company. I'm working in France and I was, I was running customer training in a customer training center and, and speaking to one of the top leaders there. Very, very good guy. And I, I, at that age, I'm young, you know, 28, 27, have an opinion on everything and everybody. Probably very little self awareness at that time, but thinking I was God's gift to the world.

Right.

So, so I'm highly opinionated. I'm, you know, doing my work. I'm, I'm struggling to show or loving to show the success in my work, but I'm also loving to challenge others and maybe their success or not. And my manager at that time I was struggling with, and in this, this person I'm referring to was above that person. And we were out for dinner one evening, just chatting away and then he, he said something to me that stayed to this day. Remember right at the beginning of his podcast, I said a moment conversation can last forever.

Right?

So this is something that's now 30 years ago or more. And he just said Ian, you need to ask yourself why this is so important to you.

Right?

So I was not attacking, but maybe challenging or, or causing, calling to question some of this other leaders work and, and that one comment, Ian, you should look to yourself first.

Yes.

Was, was at the time a little bit. What do you mean?

Right.

But it stuck and it made me think and reflect and dig a bit deeper and understand what this was all about. And that was, that was absolutely enlightening. I've had the pleasure just, just a few years ago to meet him again and remind him of that conversation and tell him that, you know, 30 years on, that still hits me, it still resonates with me and it was, it was a major turning point in how I saw the world because for the first time I saw, you know, what I was seeing was based on how I was inside me and what my needs were and what my lack of awareness was driving. So that, that was just stunning. Still, as I think about it right now, it's just, just still stunning to realize how big an impact that was.

Was he surprised by that? Was he. You know, because a lot of the time, a lot of the people that we may inspire along our way, you know, that we bump into might be a brief conversation, most of the time we are unaware of the significant impact. So, for example, you know, it must have been nice for him to hear that story. But was he surprised by that? Because, you know, normally you don't get that feedback. You don't ever know. You know, you will have inspired hundreds of people that you've worked with in your career as a leader, but most of the time you don't get that. They don't come back along the way and say, wow, you really had a significant impact on my career and you know, really want to thank you for it.

Yeah, I, I think he was surprised I remembered the conversation. I'm not, I'm not sure he did if I'm 100% honest. But he, he was grateful for me reminding him, but I'm not sure he was that surprised. I think he, I mean he was psychologically trained, very smart leader, very emotionally intelligent leader. And I think he knew, he knew his power, right? His power was not driving KPIs. He knew that this is what he does. He did. So I think he was, you know, he was pleased to hear it, but he knew, he knew he had that impact on people.

That's amazing as well, given the context of the time that you're talking about. Because emotional intelligence really wasn't a big deal back then, you know, the sort of the time that you're talking about. So emotionally intelligent leader. He was a leader be before his time, I guess, you know, because that's, emotional intelligence has only been around for sort of 25, 30 years. You know, bravo to, bravo to him.

Yeah, absolutely.

And bravo to you for getting it, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and plugging into your, you know, dma.

And I think that that's in the start of being super curious.

Right?

So, oops, Wow. I understand something about myself that I never knew before changes my whole picture on the world and then suddenly there's a first for it, right? Because if that's one revelation, what, what else can I discover along the way? And then, and then it's just an absolute first. So, so an absolute first and a, a real love of, of reflection, self reflection, observation, trying to get under the skin of what, what's happening. So as you encounter other leaders, other environments, other people just thinking a little bit deeper than what you see on the surface, just being aware to say, okay, this is showing up this way. I wonder why, right? I wonder what's behind that behavior. I wonder why that person is behaving that way in that situation. And it just helps you then realize it's, it's more than One dimensional, right? Someone blows up in a meeting, someone gets angry or frustrated, and instead of getting scared or attacking back or, or criticizing or judgmental, it's just taking that few seconds to say, okay, there's something happening here. They're dealing with their emotions at that time, and this is how it's showing up. But there's a reason behind it, right? It's not with evil intent, it's not with any, any means to, to make me unhappy. This is something that's, that's in this environment. And if you just look at it that way, you know, it helps you respond a different way.

Right.

If someone, if someone is reacting a certain way, you tend to judge and you tend to have your opinion on how you should respond. But just taking a few milliseconds to think, okay, this is maybe not quite as black and white as I see. And it just, it, it drives your behavior. How do I then lean into that situation?

Yeah.

How do I then help that person and help the team, me, the company, move through that? And it just gives you a deeper perspective. And I think that's, that's a real big, big part of it. And then, and then, you know, obviously I met you, Jim, through another leader that introduced you to our team, and we spent some sessions together, then we worked together with some of my teams. And all of that, all the things you bring to the table, the EI analysis, all of those things just add and give depth to what you already begin to know, right. And then begin to learn. And then, and then, then there's more and more first, right? So I'm. Whether I'm on YouTube watching videos or reading books or watching a documentary on TV or reading, I don't know, a magazine in an aircraft somewhere, I'm constantly pulling ideas and thoughts in as to how I can use them. I kind of have this image of, you know, a big bathtub that's completely empty, which I consider as my brain, if you like. And then I'm filling up with buckets of water. And every bucket of water or a cup of water is, is a five minute conversation in the corridor or a two hour read of a magazine on an airplane. Or, you know, just last week, in fact, I was on an airplane watching a fabulous little half an hour episode with Coach K and LeBron James. And it was called Chasing, Chasing Greatness. So it's a little, it's about this sort of legendary college coach in the USA to probably the world's best, one of the world's best ever basketball players, LeBron James. And. And they're just having the conversation like this. And there were things that were coming out, which I immediately was jotting down in my book, thinking, this is exactly like teamwork, performance, leadership, taking care of yourself, perseverance. There was so many nuggets in that 31 video. So you write it all down, and I copied the link. And in fact, this week I was with my. My team, and we. We actually reviewed that video together and just like, what could we pull from this? And apart from just being a great sports analogy and lots of good sports clips, there really was some good nuggets that then you can pull into the team and build. So the inspiration comes from everywhere. All the time, I guess, is the bottom line. It's just being open for it and seeing it and seeing the connections. And I see all these cups of water in my bathtub. They're all swirling around, and then suddenly one cup integrates with another cup with another cup, and then an idea comes and it all makes sense. And that's really how I see. See the world at the minute.

Yeah, no, that's beautiful. That's. I'm. I'm similar in my approach. You know, I'm constantly on the lookout for new clips, new things to bring in. One of the things I saw back in. Back at Christmas time, I'm not sure if you've seen it yet. A kid's animation, which is probably one of my favorite animations of late. It was the story of a. A little boy who was lost. And it's a story of the boy, the mole, the fox, the horse, and this. This boy encounters these creatures, and they're having conversations with him. And the mole actually asks him quite a profound question. He says, what do you want to be when you grow up? Which is a beautiful question. And the boy ponders it for a moment, and then he comes back to the mole and he says, I want to be kind.

Oh, wow.

And I mean, you know, I almost cried because it was just such a profound message for the world to hear. I mean, wouldn't it be quite remarkable if everyone was just kind? I mean, what a profound message, you know, across the world, you know, for the. For that to trickle across the world, for everyone to just show up and be kind. I mean, you know, that would evaporate all the wars and all the other bits and pieces that are going on around the world, you know, in a heartbeat.

Absolutely.

So, yeah, the messages are all there. It's just sometimes with, I think, you know, you. You become aware of this throughout your Career. I know, you know, we're running so fast on the treadmill that we're just missing those messages and we're missing those moments. And, and I love your, your point earlier about just a simple conversation in the corridor. Those moments can be missed by so many leaders because they're in a rush to go from one. You know, they're on a journey somewhere, they're going from A to B and they bump into somebody and they say, hi, how are you? And they say, yeah, yeah, not so bad. And unfortunately, most of the time they walk, they carry on walking on because they've got a meeting to get to us or something they're doing. But if, you know, the, the more curious leader, the more in touch leader would, would pick up on that cue and just stop for a moment and, you know, similar to what you've suggested, you know, more, you're more conscious of the, the critical role those intimate conversations take place, you know, when they take place and the power of them.

I think that's really interesting. I, I think about it a lot because I'm traveling around a lot and I have a certain offices where there's big groups of my team and when I'm coming into that office, I may be a week in Brussels or a week in Manchester or wherever. You know, your schedule gets pretty filled up. People, lots to do, lots of meetings, lots of face to faces. And I, I always run out of time and I run out of time because I prioritize the corridor walk, right? I want to meet someone in the coffee room, I want to go to their desk and ask them how they're doing and spend that time. So now I build that time in, right? So even though I may have two and a half days full meetings, I'll book another one and a half days of gaps so that I'm enabled to have those impromptu discussions and those impromptu meetings. I think the big switch there for me is to understand, and I see this in new leaders, in my team. As leaders progress and get more senior and grow and grow within the company, you mistake what your role is a little bit. So your producer, as an individual contributor, you're producing stuff, maybe even as a manager, director level, you still need to produce occasionally or produce through others, certainly. But you're in this, I'm self producing and in these conversations and these moments of time, they don't feel productive.

Right.

So I've spent two, two hours talking with half a dozen people in the coffee room. I've had four cappuccinos and now I need you to use the restroom and you feel I've wasted half a day because I should have done, you know, I had my to do list, I had my work to get done. And you forget. And what I try to coach my team is that's actually the important work.

Right.

Those moments, those two hours you spent a. Far more important than the PowerPoint deck you had to get ready or the spreadsheet you had to complete or the, you know, of course that's easy to say. Those things are needed as well. You still need to deliver your work. But as a leader and a senior leader, the. Your job is to create the next leaders.

Right? Right.

Your job is to bring. Bring them and develop them and grow them. And if by doing that, it means showing them through your actions and behavior that, that, that time is important. I've had people say to me, how do you like, spend so much time doing this? Well, it's a choice, right? You have to choose to do. No one's going to give you that time, so you have to take that time. That's the bottom line.

No, I like the idea that you actually sneak it into your diary so you've got the opportunity to go and do walk the corridor deliberately. You know, that's something that a lot of leaders wouldn't really think about doing, but it is. And I think they get caught up in, as you say, the doing of stuff, you know, the tasks and getting the tasks ticked off, as opposed to encompassing the fact that actually those conversations are critical and they are needed and actually the team are almost begging for a little bit of attention, you know. You know, we're sort of almost like childlike. We just want a little bit of attention and say, oh, hello, you know, I just want to, I want to have a conversation with you and just, you know, hear your opinion on this or hear their opinion on something that they've been thinking about and share it with you. And, you know, it's. Those conversations are critical, but they're not had by most leaders. And I think that's the point that you're making. One of the questions I've got for you as well is what are some of the memorable moments that you've had as a leader when you've developed. So coaching is a big piece of your toolkit that you bring into the conversations that you're having with your team? So tell me and maybe share with me some of the moments where you've seen, you know, you've deliberately been developing someone, a team member, and they've had a breakthrough so what are some of those memorable moments for you within your career? Because you will have. I know you have had those moments because I've worked with you, but I'm curious to explore what your thoughts are about who, you know, what are some of the examples where you've had some big breakthroughs with people.

Yeah, I think there's many.

Right.

So if I can roll that back a little bit, if you, you know, we all have our individual strengths and the areas where we can excel if that strength is exercised and developed. And obviously we look at our teams and we, we look at our teams for potential and for progression. We're often not very good at actually orchestrating the environment for them to do that.

Right.

So if there's someone that's really a really good producer, you tend to get them to produce more.

Right.

And think that that's developing them. And of course, they produce more and more. And you flog the wedding horse.

Yes.

And then you keep them there for 20 years doing the same job because actually you need them to do that job now because they're reducing.

So.

So I think the biggest first trick is to recognize the strength that you want to exercise on that person or the development that you want them to be able to demonstrate to you. So when you've decided, I'm going to sponsor someone, so this person, I feel has potential, their strengths I need to explore. I really see them. They have a long Runway in the company. They can be in this position in the future. You've got to create the environment for them to demonstrate that, to learn that and to demonstrate that.

Right.

So then it's about, how do I. How do I give them exposure to this whole new world?

Right.

So very black and white. There's, there's, there's, you know, if you want to become a general manager or commercial leader, but you've never been in sales. The very easy HR approach, while they need to carry a bag for. For a couple of years and prove their worth in sales. But it's a little bit more than that.

Right.

I mean, I think there's, you need to, you need to, whether it's a project, whether it's working in another team, whether it's exposing them on an assignment somewhere, you need to create an environment where they can learn.

Yeah.

Because they're not going to go in and be an expert.

Right.

That we often fail there. We plug them into a new environment and say, oh, go, go. And then we leave them alone and wonder why they struggle or fail. So you, first of all, you have to decide it. But then you have to be willing to put the time in and the timing is, you know, at the beginning you might have to be quite directive. If they're completely new to something, you may need to be really guiding them on. Oh, okay. Over the next couple of days, why don't you look at this and then come back and talk to me and then we'll choose your next step and, and you, you become quite directive and then as they get a little bit more into it and they understand, then you can start to back off a little bit, maybe encourage them or coach them through some, some areas and get them to a position where they're then finding that the solutions themselves or the answer themselves. But they want to, they want to spar with you.

Right.

They want to be sure. So they'll come to you and say, oh, I, I'm not sure. Can we just talk it through? Yeah, of course. We can ask the right questions, get them to, you know, support their choice and feel confident. And I think the beauty, you ask for examples. I mean there's so many. But the beauty is when suddenly they do it on their own.

Right.

I've been in situations and it's still even today where suddenly somebody who's reporting to me, we've all, we've been through the direction, we've been through the high coaching, we've been through the encouraging. Because now I know what I don't know. So I'm scared. And then every, every decision needs to be, needs to be talked about and then suddenly, you know, a month goes by and I think, oh, what happened there? And I say what. What happened a month ago? And, and then I get the story of the things they've done or implemented or what they, how they responded and it was all independent. They needed. No, no sparring with me, no advice from me, no checking off. Is it okay? I guess part of that is creating the trust environment where they can go and do that and fail and make mistakes. But when they get to that level of self, self sufficiency, if you like, that they can go off and make their own choices and will be supported in doing so. That's just, it's just, I could imagine. Yeah. It's just like watching your, your child get their graduation.

Right? It's, it's your.

You're the proud. This thing sounds corny. You're the proud dog dad watching his children. But, but it's really them and go off and make their own choices and will be supported in doing so. That's just it's just. I could imagine.

Yeah.

It's just like watching your. Your child get their graduation.

Right?

It's. It's your. You're the proud thing. Sounds corny. You're the proud dog dad watching his children. But. But it's really them, and you've seen them get to that level. That's just wonderful.

Right?

Yeah. Sorry, I was just interrupting because what you're really talking about there is some. A concept that I know you get and a lot of leaders don't necessarily get is instead of giving them a fish, you're teaching them how to fish and where to fish and. And what love.

You seen them get to that level. That is just wonderful.

Right.

Yeah. Sorry, I was just interrupting, because what you're really talking about there is some a concept that I know you get and a lot of leaders don't necessarily get is instead of giving them a fish, you're teaching them how to fish and where to fish and what line to use and what bait to use and what season is a good season to fish in, etc. And where the good spots are, as opposed to just you get caught in that trap. A lot of leaders get caught in that trap of giving them a fish every day because it makes them feel good that they. They have the answers and that person doesn't get developed. So, you know, to use, and what bait to use and what season is a good season to fish in, etc. And where the good spots are, as opposed to just you. You get caught in that trap. A lot of leaders get caught in that trap of giving them a fish every day because it makes them feel good that they. They have the answers and that person doesn't get developed. So, you know, that's a beautiful. That that story alone is just a beautiful story around developing someone and then, you know, almost letting them free, which, you know.

Yeah, ultimate. Ultimate feedback is that other teams, other departments, other leaders want your people. Right? I mean, that's. That's the ultimate.

Hey, that's a beautiful.

That.

That story alone is just a beautiful story around developing someone and then, you know, almost letting them free, which, you know.

Yeah, ultimate. Ultimate feedback is that other teams, other departments, other leaders want your people. Right? I mean, that's. That's the ultimate. Hey, in a position.