Coding Made Easy—It's As Easy As Connecting The Services!

Hey, it's Mark Podolski, the Land Geek. I said the Loan Geek because we're talking about Loan Geek, the Land Geek with their favorite niche real estate website, www.thelandgeek.com. and before we get into today's very impressive podcast guest who is going to talk to us all about his very cool business model. I would be remiss if I did not properly introduce my co host, Six Six Sigma, the smartest guy in the room, Scott Todd, from scotttodd.net, landmodo.com and most importantly, if you're not automating your Craigslist postings, postingdomination.com thelandgeek Scott Todd. How are you, Mark?

I'm doing good.

All right, well, I do want to just remind everybody today's podcast episode is sponsored by Lonegeek. Lonegeek IO. The fastest, the easiest way to start automating your payments from your borrowers. Loanegeek IO. Don't be like me when I first started and spend all your Sundays manually working with these old spreadsheets or overpay with some other business, you know, or software that really doesn't even solve your problem. It actually creates more problems. Learn more lonegeek IO okay, let's get back to our Mark.

Mark for Loan Geek. Did you develop it yourself or did you have to hire somebody?

I had to hire somebody and it was a total crapshoot. I did a little bit of due diligence, asking probably wrong questions. And then the other issue is I don't know how to code. I couldn't tell you if my code's crappy or not, honestly.

Well, our guest today, he's going to help us with that and more and more.

All right, well, let's talk about Matan Griffel. Matan Griffel. If you don't know who Matan is, he is the co founder and CEO of a very cool company called One Month. Matan is also a professor at Columbia Business School and was named one of Forbes 30 under 30 game changers in education. It's Liverpool. How are you?

Hey, Mark. Hey, Scott.

How are you, man?

I'm doing really well. How are you guys?

Awesome.

Awesome. So, Matan, what was the thinking, the entrepreneurial journey, if you will, of starting One month? And more importantly, what did you learn about it? And this is like three questions. Let's just start with that. Let's just start with your entrepreneur journey. I want to start peppering you with questions.

Yeah, so actually a lot like yours with Loan Geek, to be honest. I was working at a startup and my boss gave me a copy of the four hour workweek. Probably the worst move that any boss could do if you don't want your employee to leave immediately and try to start their own company. I read it and I immediately fell in love with the idea of passive income, working from wherever, taking control of your life. And so I came up with at least four different ideas that I wanted to test out. But unlike you, and maybe like some of the listeners, I actually didn't have the money to pay someone to build it for me. I had maybe $5,000 saved aside for trying stuff out, but I knew that I didn't have a lot of money to make mistakes, hire someone. If it didn't work out right then I knew that I'd be in a lot of trouble. So actually I had a friend who convinced me that I should learn how to code on my own. And I think I ignored him for a while. But then when I had a lot of trouble finding someone to build it for me, like, you keep pitching people like, oh, I'll give you equity in this thing or something like that if they build it for you. And with developers, they're in such high demand from companies like Facebook or Google or Twitter that they're not really going to build your idea for free. You have to pay them a lot of money because they're getting competed out from all sides. So my friend eventually convinced me, like, hey, if you want to make this thing happen, you're going to have to learn how to do it yourself. And fortunately, he gave me a list of resources to check out. And I went through it. And that's kind of the journey that started one month. It was initially a way to. It was my passive income project. I realized that learning how to code, like, most of the resources I found were way too complicated. They were not written for beginners. They were built using old technology. Or they would teach you stuff that, like, was popular in the 80s or 90s, but not like the most modern stuff that was actually a lot easier. And so I thought, man, someone has to make this, like, easier for people. I wish that. I wish that someone made it easier for me when I started. So that's kind of why I started One month.

Great. And what were some of the challenges that you faced and how did you overcome them?

I mean, some of the big challenges were like, when all of these guides are written, assuming you already know what you're doing, all of these were written by computer scientists. These are people who are really smart, but they're not good at explaining stuff. So most of the guides that I found were either really, really fast, really complicated. I would get lost like five minutes in because they would mention this concept and I'd be like, I don't even know what you're talking about, man, walk me through this. Or they would go way too slow and it would just be boring. And I'd be building a tip calculator and I would be like, I don't get why I'm doing this. And so the challenge was, how do you deliver the right information to people who maybe have never touched or looked at a line of code in their life? Maybe you've right clicked on a page by accident, viewed the source code and then freaked out and like, ah, so maybe you've seen that. But I assume that most of the people, most of my students, you know, just like me, had never seen code before, never studied it, and yet you want to be able to do something. Nowadays there's a lot of tools that make it easier for you to build a site. For example, like you've got WordPress and Squarespace and, you know, a lot of the tools you're talking about. But there's still a point where it's just, you know, really useful to be able to edit some HTML yourself.

Scott, what do you think?

I have this love hate relationship with coding because I've gone down the avenue many times of, okay, I'm going to teach myself something about coding. So like I've taught myself php and then it's fun, you know, and I enjoy it. And then all of a sudden I hit a roadblock, like it's too complicated or there's things that I just think I can't put my head around, like classes, you know, like the whole concept of a class to me is like, I think I understand it. But like, I remember in like taking or writing in Visual Basic, there was no classes back then, you know, like, it was like all it was, everything was like, I don't even know how to explain. It was like, you know, go to 10 or whatever, you know, that kind of stuff.

And then go sub.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it, go sub, whatever. And then, you know, like, I hear what you're saying because like in October, I think it was October, I got a udemy class on ISO 10 development. I'm like, I'd like to make an iPhone app. You know, that's kind of a cool thing. And you get to a point, it starts off really easy and this always happens to me. It Starts off really easy. And then there's this one thing that I'm like, none of this makes sense to me anymore. Like, you reach that point where you just go over the cliff, and so you get a good foundation, but never really go all the way through to make all the different cool apps that you want to make, because it's not there. So how do you. How do you deal with that? Like, how do you deal with that? You know, making it so that I'm not driving off the cliff at some point because it just reaches the point of complexity.

Yeah. So I think a lot of people's fear or, like, you know, or concern around learning to code is because of, like, when they started. Actually, you know, the reason people think of coding as this really complicated thing where you have, like, a machine that fills up an entire room is because that's what computers used to be.

Right.

And they used to be punch cards, and it was, like, insane. No one wants to code with punch cards. It doesn't make any sense. You have to be a genius to be able to do anything, really, in that kind of stuff. But what you don't see if you're not familiar with how computers and coding has evolved, is in the 90s, it was like C, that was one of the old languages, and then Java and then php, which you talked about. You start to get into the newer web languages, and it's because of PHP that stuff like WordPress was first created. WordPress is actually built in PHP, but it allows people to create websites pretty quickly. And some of your readers may have some familiarity with WordPress, at least knowing that it's pretty easy to set up a site with WordPress. You might get confused if you have to do a lot of customization, like diving into the code. And WordPress, it's actually one of the older technologies. If you look at it these days, in the last five or so years, you have the evolution of what I think of as the new languages. Ruby on Rails is an example of this. Ruby on Rails is a language, and it's kind of like a language for designing websites really, really quickly, kind of like what WordPress used to be. But WordPress is really built for blogs. If you want to build a site like Twitter or Facebook or Pinterest or something like that, Ruby on Rails is the way to go. And actually, Twitter was built in Ruby on Rails in, like, two weeks. Right. To show you how far we've come. So nowadays, when you're learning coding and I say coding in quotes, you're not learning what you used to learn like 10 years ago or 15 years ago, where it used to be understand how binary zeros and ones or whatever works, where you would actually have to study for four years. Nowadays you're learning something like Ruby on Rails, which is a lot more like connecting services together where people have already done most of the hard work for you. So with one month, our website was built in Ruby on Rails. I built it after maybe two months of experience. I didn't know most of how to do this stuff, but I knew that mailchimp exists for collecting emails and you have Stripe for processing payments and you learn enough to plug them together so you actually don't have to do most of the complicated stuff that people don't think of anymore. But it's because people are unaware of the new tools that exist that I think they get a little bit scared. I'll be honest, PHP is a pretty horrible language, so I wouldn't recommend anyone learn it. Java and C and all that stuff these days. I think if you really want to start somewhere, start with Ruby on Rails or start with Python. Those are two really in demand languages and they're a lot easier to use than all the old stuff.

So, Matan, like, if I had to start coding right now based on what you said, like, why would I just go to Zapier and just figure out, like, how can I just connect all these services together and create apps and just create automation? Like Scott Todd has literally taken all these zaps and integrations and hard coded them and now we're, we are now 90% automated in a proprietary way in our business, just software.

I mean, like in Mark, what we did was we used Zapier and some other web services to do the proof of concept on it. Right, right. And then once we had it built the way we wanted to, with all these web services connected, then we took it to a developer and said, now make it ours.

Yeah.

The secret to this, by the way, is when you're using Zapier, Zapier, actually both ways are the correct way to pronounce it because no one knows you're coding. You are using code and you're building something, which five years ago someone would have had to actually do using code. You're coding. It doesn't look like what we think of as coding in the same way that editing a mailchimp template to make it look the same way. We don't really think of that as coding, but it is coding because you're just fundamentally messing with this bottom layer. And yeah, we have a kind of a saying in development that the best code is no code at all. If you can solve a problem without having to write any code, that's the ideal. And so even for me, as someone who knows how to build a website, I still build my website like a squarespace because it's faster, it's easier, I. I enjoy it a lot more. But if I reach a point where I'm limited by what the tool allows me to do, then I know at least, okay, I'll have to build that, customize that myself, or hire someone to do it. Which gets me to the second point you mentioned, which is if you're going to hire a developer to build something for you, don't you at least want to know what to ask them to build? Don't you want to be able to look at the code that they give you back and be able to tell, is it good? Is it bad? Did they do a good job? Give them feedback for, like, what kind of stuff to do? When we teach people, I usually say, I'm not teaching you to be a developer, I'm teaching you to build a prototype of whatever you want to build, because maybe you don't have a lot of money, you want to build an initial version and it's not worth your time to hire a developer at that point. And I'm teaching you how to speak the lingo of developers, how to find developers, how to manage them, because those skills are invaluable in a modern world. I think that the world is being divided into people who are technical and who are non technical. And if you are technical, you can control and manipulate the very world around you as it becomes more automated with driving cars, right? And we keep our phones in arm's reach in our beds. And if you're non technical, then your life and your world is controlled by the people who are technical.

So, Matan, did I just hear you go, ooh?

Kind of. But the whole reason why I started one month was because I just got tired of people telling me, hey, I have this idea, but because I'm just not a technical person, it's never going to happen. Or can you help me find someone to build my idea for me? And I just wanted to be like, no, man, you're going to have to do this yourself. It's not that hard. Let me show you the path. You know, enable the world.

Yeah, I mean, so, you know, as we were building out loan Geek and I talked to the developer and we put all the code in GitHub, right? So GitHub is like this repository, if you will, or I guess where our code lives. I don't really, I don't know how to really explain it, but he said, he said to me was something that really kind of struck with me because I'm in the non technical bucket and as soon as we hang up, I'm signing up for one month. Is that he said, mark, the code is bloated now because feature, feature, feature. And we have to go back and we have to do something called a refactor of the code and eliminate what we call the technical debt. And all that meant to me was you're gonna spend more money.

Yeah. And not give you anything to make.

This code, you know, for a lack of a better word, more elegant. So I could give it somebody like you and you would immediately understand what we were doing. And that made, that part made sense to me. It was like, oh, okay. But in the very beginning, if I had known how to code, I could have looked at the code from week one and said, this is bloated. Let's rewrite it next week and save me some money.

Yes.

Am I right?

Another example, you're absolutely right. I mean, another example of that is you, you give a plan, you know, an outline, you, maybe you do a mock up, you show it to a developer. The developer will look at exactly what you tell them and say, okay, this is going to take six months or whatever, six weeks. It's going to cost you this amount of money. They're not you, they're not able to think into your head about what the priority of these things is. If you know, okay, I don't have six months, I need something in a month. But you know that that search box in the corner is going to take a little while to build and you don't really need it. You might say, okay, well scrap the search box. What about now? And then you might get a response where they're like, okay, yeah, we could probably do that in four days. And I've seen that happen time and time again. Unless you have the knowledge to be able to make decisions like that, you're not really an effective manager. You're not really effective at organizing the resources in your business to be able to talk to them, maybe brainstorm what kind of tool you're going to be using for them. Otherwise you're at kind of the, you know, at the will of your developer if they tell you, I'm going to use Braintree to process our payments, because that's what I know before and you say, actually, I've heard of Stripe, and Stripe seems to be a lot easier to use and it's cheaper. So let's go with that. You're going to make a much better decision there at the end of the day.

And I also think it's important, you know, to your point is, you know, you're managing people that are in a technical role. You need to, like, be able to figure out, like, at some point a certain application, you know, like you just, you said, you know, Braintree, for example. At some point you have to know, like, okay, that we've spent too much time trying to get that to work and it's not working. So cut and let's go over somewhere else.

Yeah.

And being able to make that, it's going. Yeah, it's sunk cost because, you know, you write, put in time and labor into it to realize it's not going to work the way you want it to. But being able to make that decision to say, stop and let's go over here and know where the other technologies that are available. Yeah, I think that's where, you know, if you're a manager, I don't care what your business is. You can say you're not a technical person, but you really do need to sharpen that tool set because you're going to have to manage people that are technical in nature. You need to figure out, like you said, how to speak their lingo, speak their language and know, like, okay, something's not right and just at least have enough information to cut it short and move on.

Yeah. And you know, you'll have to find a developer anyway eventually. Right. So knowing where they are. And then also, even when you have a developer, sometimes it doesn't make sense to go to them for everything. You know, you see your website, you want to make a little change here, the text is wrong or change the color. It's way easier, way faster and way cheaper for you to just go in there and make the change. Especially when it's simpler. You know, it's a lot easier to change someone else's code than it is to write stuff from scratch. And so to not feel afraid to dive in and to make changes will save you a ton of money in the long run. It'll get you something closer to what you actually want than what you have in mind. And it saves time.

Yeah, I mean, Matan, I'm sold. I've read somewhere that software is the new oil. And in a lot of ways I agree with that, especially when you were making that argument. Like the world's gonna be divided between the technical and the non technical. And we can see out in the distance, you know, the Internet of things is coming, right? If you could, if you can develop right now for Alexa or Google Home or you know, any of these other, you know, new home automation pieces, like you've got something really valuable. So if we look at it from a business perspective, right, this is not just a passion project now you can really open your mind and free your mind to different type of software as a service type of passive income type of businesses. The world really opens up to you in a way that you may not have seen. And I think that in and of itself could add a lot of value. So my question is, from your point of view, right, who shouldn't learn how to code? And then other questions. Well, if we all should learn how to code, and we can, we, and you're saying, look, the best place to go is right now Ruby on Rails. After we do that, then what do we do?

That's a really good question and I love the intention of the question because you can't have a blanket statement like everyone should learn. Well, there's got to be some limit there, right? The people who shouldn't learn how to code are the people who. Their time is more valuably spent somewhere else. I'll give you an example. Peter Thiel, controversial guy. Some people love him, some people hate him. He believes that everyone should learn how to code. He doesn't know how to code, but he knows a lot of developers and he knows a lot of people who are great at managing developers and people who can do that for him. And he recognizes, probably correctly, that his time is better spent doing what he does, which is strategy, which is getting the financing, which is building a vision and building a company. And that's great. He might recognize that if he were younger and he didn't have the resources that he has now, he probably would start that way. But because of where he's gotten to, it doesn't make sense. Now that doesn't mean that he's afraid of diving into the technical details. I'm sure that he's at least technically minded in the sense that he's not afraid to try to dive into some technology if he needs to. Elon Musk might be another example where he's not building the technology, he's not building the rocket ship himself. He sure as hell knows about rocket ships. And he taught himself all that stuff like he didn't know anything about rocket ships when he started SpaceX, but it's not going to be worth his time. And so I think that's really up to each person to decide. What level of technical proficiency do you need to be able to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish? I think for most people, the answer is more than what they currently have, but it doesn't mean that you need to learn a programming language, for example.

I like that answer. I like the answer. So, Scott, Todd, we're working with two different types of developers, right? And it's really interesting. One of our development teams are in India. The other development team is in Silicon Valley. One's going at an extremely fast pace and is costing about a billion dollars. The other takes a little longer getting the job done. Maybe doesn't look as pretty, but it's costing like a dollar.

Right.

If you're a software engineer right now, are you scared about that wide chasm of pay? And like, if I'm a big company, I could just, I outsource everything to India. As long as I knew enough that you just taught me at one month, I knew I wasn't getting screwed by the Indian developers.

Yeah, I think software developers now are not scared, but they should be scared. I think the reason they're not scared is because for the last few years there's been so much demand that your average developer gets a salary of like $130,000 a year. Right. That's like, right out of college. You know, as an, as an iPhone developer, you can do it. You can make at least $150 an hour. And there's this belief, and I think a lot of developers think very highly of their own skills, that you'll never get nearly as high quality going to India or paying less. Right. That you get what you pay for. And that may even be true right now, for the most part, but it's not true forever because this is just knowledge and knowledge spreads. And as people in India and as people all over the world learn how to write code and how to write good code, it's not something that you can keep bottled up in Silicon Valley. You're going to reach a point where developers in India and outsourcing companies learn how to write good code quickly and much cheaper. It's just a matter of how much is someone willing to charge to do something. So I think there's an advantage now. But just like you were saying, that advantage does not sustain itself over a long period of time. And there's also, I mean, tools that get built, which mean that you can do stuff without having to write code. Websites that exist that let you scrape things without having to actually write a scraper or zapier which let you connect APIs, you know, all of these things exist. So developers are in less and less demand for those things.

I think that the, I would say that if you're trying to buy like high quality and, you know, kind of high quality stuff, well then, you know, maybe you do want to stay on the U.S. right. I think that, you know, if you look at the code that a US developer writes versus someone in India, I'd probably say that the, the code is much cleaner and much better. Being in the US versus India.

Yeah. And that's actually, that gets to something that you said before, Mark, which is about technical debt. It's a concept a lot of people don't really understand until they start learning about code. But it is true that you can write bad code, it might get the job done, but the more complicated it gets and sort of the worse quality it is, the harder it is to make changes. And you reach a certain point where every little change you try to make takes 10 times as long and it might be 10 times as buggy. And you don't see that at first, but generally if you work with developers in the US you end up with better written code and higher quality code, so there's less technical debt. But if you're kind of in the beginning, if you're trying to save money and if you don't really care about what kind of technical debt you're building, it's very tempting to go with a team in India, you see that kind of stuff, you know, six months down the line or a year down the line.

Yeah, I think that, you know, where you have somebody that's kind of looking over that and realizing, okay, this is where you reach a point in time in which you need to turn it over to a, like a US developer.

Yeah.

Because there does come a point in time, you know, like where you're going to integrate multiple systems together, that you say, okay, well, the team, the team in India has built the foundation and it's good enough. The foundation is good, but now to build the skyscraper, we need to tighten up the foundation before we can go up even higher.

Yeah. There's actually a lot of companies that operate this way, which is they'll have a team internally they call the Spike team, which is they just kind of build something quickly in a weekend just to see how it works. It's really badly written, but intentionally so, you know, they cut corners and Then once they've actually shown like this is what it could work, they'll just pass it to another team and that team just rewrites it from the ground up and does it well. And so it's actually a pretty common practice to do stuff that way. And I think it makes sense for businesses to be built that way too.

One of the teams that I managed when I worked in my corporate job was kind of a rapid applications deployment team, which was just that here's a problem we have, go fix it fast, any solution possible, go fix it and basically create a band aid so that we can then go and look at what the long term solution is. And either that rapid application deployment team would then code the longer term solution or they would turn it over to a larger project or a larger team or a different team to say, here's what we did, now you guys go make it better and make it really work well. But in terms of proof of concepts and stuff, that's really a great application for that.

Yeah, absolutely.

Matan, how do we manage our developer? What are best practices?

Best practices, Be very specific in your scoping of how much time you want to let them do something before they come back to you and show you what they have. A big mistake people make in the beginning, and this is true for outsourcing in general, is giving someone a task that's kind of ambiguous and just not telling them how much time they should spend on it. So what you get back is not what you wanted and they spent 20 hours doing it. So saying here's sort of the entire scope. But what I want you to do is I want you to spend three hours working on it. Wherever you're at in three hours, stop, show me what you have, don't move on until I've given you feedback or I've given you the go ahead. And you can do that more in the beginning and then over time give them more and more freedom as you feel confident that they're building what you want. But in the beginning you want to increase the amount of communication as much as possible and also do as much planning as possible. And you don't know when you're starting how much planning or how much diagramming or stuff is necessary. You don't know what you don't know until you run into the problems. And so saying do this for five hours, give me back what you have will help you realize, oh, I wasn't specific enough here, so let me actually get a little more specific with what I'm looking for.

When you were developing one month, what would you go back and change again and do over again?

What would I do from the beginning? That's a great question. When I was first starting, the biggest thing for me was I integrated payment processing really quickly with Stripe, which was the best and the worst thing, because suddenly it got serious. Suddenly I was getting credit cards from people and making money from them. And so it was really up to me to figure out how to make sure it didn't break. And it was a hell of a motivator for sure. One thing I would probably do a little early on is do what's called automated testing. And automated testing is you write tests that goes to a certain page, make sure it loads properly. If it doesn't load properly, that's because there's an error and. And you won't even be able to actually get your code live on the website unless all the tests pass. And there was certainly a few situations in the beginning where I was in such a rush to get it out. I didn't write tests for stuff. There was one time where I was boarding a plane and I got a tweet where someone was like, hey, what happened to your site? It's down for me. And I didn't realize because I just pushed code from the airport lobby that I broke something. And I was sitting in my seat about to take off, and I realized no one could access any of my classes. So I actually convinced them to open the door back up, let me get back into the airport, opened up my computer to send code. I told them I had left something there. And so I was frantically waiting, like, five minutes for this code to push. Managed to fix it, got back in my seat, everyone's staring at me. I'm sweating, right? But also relieved because I knew I didn't want to. It was like, I don't want to be six hours in the air knowing that people would be angry at me when I landed. Right? And then I vowed from that day forward, never again would I push code without testing it.

Very, very smart. Very smart. So we're at that point now, the podcast where we're going to put you on the spot, ask you for your tip of the week. A website resource, a book, something actionable with the art of passive income. Listeners can go right now, improve their businesses, improve their lives. Matographa, I think you've been a great mentor. We're going to massage your brain for one more tip.

Sure. Has anyone mentioned Import IO on your podcast before? Import IO?

Oh, Scott. Todd, have you heard of Import IO. I have not.

I have not. Cool.

So we talked about web scraping, right? It's fairly easy. You can learn with Python or Ruby on Rails. However, there are all these tools now that let you do web scraping without having to actually write code. So in the vein of less code is better. Import IO actually lets you essentially write a web scraper where you go to a website through the site, you click on things on that site, it will extract it into like an Excel sheet, and then it'll run that every hour or every day or every 10 minutes or whatever you want, which is effectively what web scraping is. So if your product relies on getting data from other websites, like, I don't know, I don't want to condone this, but maybe you're searching Amazon for prices of products on a regular basis and telling people whether it's the right time to buy or not. Maybe you check websites for airline tickets and telling them, you know, data or even just competitive analysis. Import IO is a great one. There's a bunch of others like it, but it's definitely a great place to start, you know, if you're exploring. If you want to explore web scraping but you don't know where to start.

Wow, this looks powerful.

Yeah, it's cool.

And they have a free version for under 500 queries a month?

Yeah, they do, yeah.

It's. When you go below the pricing page, it says, looking for our free offering. Sign up here. Free provides 500 queries per month.

Sign up. Wow.

Yep. I have no relation to them. I just like them.

Import.com I like them too. Great tip.

Cool, man.

He just dropped the mic on us.

He dropped the mic. Wow.

Check it out.

Scott, you gotta. You got a tip.

Well, this is lame, but I'll get a shot.

Check out.

This is for my mailchimp friends. Check out chimpget.com chimpget.com it's a widget. You can download it from Mark's favorite store, second favorite store, the Mac App Store. And basically it will. It will give you a constant check of your mailchimp account. You can see as the list grows, number of subscribers, number of subscribers since last campaign. For those of you wanting to know when people get signed up for your list, let it come right to you on your Mac.

I like this. This is nice.

Chimp kit, 6 months free unlimited sending.

There you go.

Huh? Very cool. Very cool. Matat. What are you using for your collecting your email?

We used to use Mailchimp. Now we use HubSpot.

Ah, HubSpot. Okay. And then what do you use for email? Just outbound emails. Are you using HubSpot?

Yeah, we use HubSpot. And for the more transactional stuff, we use Customer IO. So HubSpot for the marketing Customer IO for like the triggered email when someone signs up, when they, you know, when they engage with a feature or something like that.

Very cool. Very cool. I was. I learned about mailgun the other day. I thought that was complete.

Yeah, mailgun's a good one. Pretty popular.

Well, my tip of the week is let's start learning to code. Yeah, technical and not technical. Unless you're in, you know, that rarefied air of billionaire CEO status and your effective hourly rate. How high should your effective hourly rate be? Matan, before you say, look, I don't need to know this stuff.

It really depends on how much work you want to do.

Right.

You don't have to make that much money, but I'm going to say above $100 an hour.

All right, so check out one month dot com. Start learning. Start learning and bridge the technical gap. Right. So are we good?

Yeah, I think we're great.

Scott, Todd, are we good? Yeah, I want to thank.

We are good, Mark.

All right, all right. I got you mid bite there. Let's see how I roll. I did that on purpose. I do want to just remind Everybody, check out Lonegeek IO. Let us know if you think about what you think about our code in our little project there. Also, look, the only way we're going to get the quality of guests like Matan Griffel is if you subscribe and review the podcast. Send a screenshot of that review to support thelanegeek.com we're going to send you for free the $97 passive income launch kit. I want to thank all the listeners. I want to thank Scott Todd from postingdomination.com landgeek and Matan from 1month.com. Thanks again and we'll see everybody next time. Let freedom ring. Pretty good.

Try it.

New. There you go.

Fantastic.