Finding The Courage To Rewrite Life After Success

Hey, it's Mark Podolski, the land geek with your favorite niche real estate website, www.thelandgeek.com. and I'm really excited to talk to today's guest. It's gonna be really, really phenomenal interview. But before I talk to Alex, I just want to remind everybody that today's podcast is sponsored by GeekPay IE, the only automated set it and forget it system that manages lenders and borrowers monthly note payments. Get your first Note free@thelandgeek.com GeekPay so today's guest is Alex Grodnik. If you don't know, Alex is. He began his career as an analyst at JP Morgan Private bank, and after completing the program, he moved into investment banking at Houlihan Loki in their restructuring group. Alex went on to work at a pioneering digital media firm before getting his MBA at UCLA Anderson. He grew up in Parksville, Utah, and loves to ski and golf. And he has a great podcast as well, the WSO Podcast. Alex Drodnik, how are you?

I'm good, Mark. Thanks for having me.

Not a problem. Not a problem. So, Alex, tell us about just your whole journey of getting into what pretty much everyone would consider the pinnacle of high finance, which is investment banking. Correct. Or private equity or hedge funds. So what made you want to go to JP Morgan Private bank and Houhan Loki and then what made you sort of exit?

Sure. You know, my whole kind of life was built to getting into working on Wall Street. I knew from a young age that that that was kind of what I wanted to do, whereas I never knew anyone who actually did it. I just knew that that sounded cool and sexy. And, you know, my parents are entrepreneurs. Their parents are entrepreneurs. My aunts and uncles are entrepreneurs. So no one had really ever, you know, gone and worked for a big company. And my parents were always telling me, oh, you got to go work for a big company. My mom still thinks it's like, oh, you go work for a big company and that's it. Like, that'll be your career and it's set and they'll pay for everything. Maybe it was like that 40 years ago, but not quite the same way today. So I grew up in Park City, Utah, far, far away from Wall Street. And so I just kind of set out on this march to go get one of these investment banking jobs. And what that looked like for undergrad is I went to a school outside of Philadelphia called Lehigh, and they had a pretty good finance program. I studied. That's what I studied. And then the idea was go get a job on Wall street, which the plan was going well, but then the, you know, financial collapse happened as right when I was graduating in 2009. And Mark, it's like a funny story, but our career fair was the day after Bear Stearns collapsed, so no way.

That's crazy.

Not a lot of employers. It was actually pretty depressing. There were the booths for Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs and none of them even showed up. So it was like, man, what am I going to do now? Am I going to get a job at Starbucks? Am I going to get a job at all? But just like anything else, you set your mind to something and you just don't take no for an answer. And so I started my cold email campaign and dozens and dozens of cold emails a day, I think hundreds and hundreds overall. But I somehow I weaseled my way into an analyst recruiting program at J.P. morgan. And it wasn't in their investment bank, it was in their asset management group, which in 2009 was actually 50% of JP Morgan's net income. And on a normal year it's like 10%. So this group was like doing really well. It was what's called a flight to quality. Everyone was afraid. They said, oh, let me move my money to JP Morgan. Like they're not going to go out of business. And so they hired this big analyst class. And so a lot of the people that probably would have worked in investment banking that year went to go work in asset management. And the job was originally supposed to be in New York. And I got to New York on my first day of training after graduating from school, so excited, so happy and fortunate to have this job. And they said, Alex, we don't have a spot for you in New York. You can, you cannot have a job or you can go to a couple different places, none of which I'd ever been to. So after 10 weeks of training in New York in Brooklyn, I moved to Detroit. And I'd never been there before starting my first day of work. But it was kind of cool and I made some cool friends there and I took the first level of the CFA there. But I quickly realized, A, I don't want to be in Detroit, B, I don't want to be doing asset private wealth management anymore. So I actually moved with JP Morgan out to Los Angeles, finished the three year analyst program there and I was still super focused on getting that investment banking job. And so, so I made some calls around town, had my boss at JPMorgan make some calls around town. And it just so Happened that Houlihan Loki in their restructuring group had a need. They had to fire an analyst. And so I was lucky. I got his spot. And then it was exactly what I wanted. I'm working till 4 or 5am every single night getting that exact corporate finance as kind of, as you said, at top of the food chain deal exposure, where you're talking with management teams and CEOs and hedge funds and boards of directors. It's really, really cool. You get a great skill set. They say it's like dog years. You get seven years of experience for every one year of work. But I quickly realized that, you know, this is cool. I'm happy I was able to do this. It's so funny. You work your whole life to get something, and then it's like, man, maybe this, this isn't right for me. You know, I mentioned everyone in my family's entrepreneurs.

That's.

That's what I am too. I didn't know it at the time, but I wasn't good at working in a very defined role and having being told what to do all day and every day. And, you know, here's how you're going to do it. I thought, oh, like, what about this idea? What about that idea? And they would say, no, like, this is your job as an investment banking analyst or an associate. And then so I went to go work for one more company, basically doing internal investment banking for this digital media company. But then it was time for business school. I thought I an entrepreneur. None of these jobs I've had have really been right for me. Let's go to business school and kind of find myself, find what is right for me. I graduated last May, and so now I've got my hands in a few different entrepreneurial endeavors.

So, you know, the big takeaway from that story for me is this idea of mis wanting, right? Where oftentimes in life we think we want one thing, we get it, and it ends up that's not what we wanted. And oftentimes it takes a lot of courage to even have that awareness of, wait a second. I worked really, really hard for this. Now I have it, and now I'm not happy. And our whole lives. I don't know about you, Alex, but like, you know, for my parents, happiness wasn't really even in our vocabulary. Right? It was more about security. Right? So when you told your parents, hey, I climbed up to the top of the finance food chain, and now I'm not happy. What do they say?

You know, you're totally right. This is like this conundrum that you have of trying to please others versus trying to please yourself. And yes, I was working, you know, for these prestigious firms with lots of people who went to Harvard and Wharton and you know, they're gonna, their path to success is gonna be a straight line up, I mean, if there is such a thing. But from the outside, these jobs are very appealing and very competitive and people put a high value on them. But I think it's important. It's also very, very hard to figure out what you want. And you know, we, everyone in society, society puts so many wants and pressures and needs on every one of us that it's tough to differentiate what you actually want versus what society tells you that you want. And so, you know, it's kind of this soul searching process of figuring out what your goals are and what you want to do. I'm actually reading this book, it's called Principles by Ray Dalio, the Bridgewater founder. Right now I read a great book. Yeah, and he lays out, I mean, I'm early in it, but he lays out how to set goals for what you want. And so that's kind of what I strived to do in business school, was to figure out who I am and what I want.

So in business school, what did you learn?

So, you know, business school is a very cool experience. It's two year time when you get to be really selfish, focus on yourself. You also have an email address from a school, so you have a student account and you can email people and you know, from a UCLA email address I found that CEOs and really everyone was very responsive to grabbing a coffee or sitting down with you and you take trips and you meet new people and it's a pretty awesome experience. I mean it's very, very expensive. But it's tough to regret it I think in the long run. But the most impactful moment of my business school experience happened in one of the softer classes. It was like a leadership type class. And the professor had us write down a few instances when we felt like we were being our most authentic self. And he defined authentic self as firing on all cylinders, feeling like you're using all of your facilities, really just you're fully passionate and fully engaged and so fine. So we had a few minutes in class and I'm writing down all these times and okay, so now I have this list of three, four, five times. And I'm looking at them and I'm like, man, every single one of these times I'm starting a business, I'm doing something entrepreneurial and it's like, and still up until that point I thought I was like trying to get it, trying to go get another job like just to level up from business school I go get a job in private equity or higher up in an investment bank and right at that moment I said, wow, my path is not right. This is, this is, this is what, this is what's right. I'm an entrepreneur. This is, this is when I'm happy and fulfilled. And so, you know, now I, before business school I left a job that was paying me lots of money and had prestige, go to business school, pay $100,000 and come out with a job that you know, pays me hundreds of dollars per week and has very little prestige in the beginning right now. But outside of the money aspect, I'm like checking all of my fulfillment boxes right now. I'm engaged and it's so things are, I think I'm on the right path now.

It takes so much courage. I remember that when I was in investment banking with private equity groups and I hated it, right? And I remember think I like about my job is going to parties and when people would ask me what I do, telling them that I was an investment banker and I worked with private equity groups of mergers and acquisitions, that was the only thing I liked about my job. And it was very ego driven for me to the point where I had, you know, I had to be absolutely miserable until I had the courage to find something else. And how often do you think that actually happens with people? That they take things simply for ego because it sounds good and they're not fulfilled? Or is it, do you think you and I are more anomalies?

You know, fulfilling your ego is certainly a benefit to these jobs. I mean that's certainly a check mark on people's fulfillment lists is do I have a second job that I can tell people? I mean I live in la and that is a huge piece of people's, you know, intrinsic worth is their extrinsic worth to others. And you know that's, that's sad because at the end of the day it's, you know, you have to be happy with yourself and what you are doing. And I'm much, much happier now. But you see it, I mean it's also a taking risk thing. I was making great money and I had a prestigious job. Like most people I think would say okay, like I can do this, I'm going to hang out. I mean granted you have to work 100 hours a week to do it. But I'm Going to stay here. Like, change is hard, and I like my ego being stroked. So I said, yes, change is hard, but I'm going to brave it and I'm going to give up the ego thing and, you know, all the exposure that I have to other cool people and set out on a path that's right for me. But, you know, that path is certainly not right for everyone. It's filled with risk and uncertainty and. And so it's. There's. There's no easy way to do it, you know, making money and finding your self worth and your passions. There's no, there's no, like, hacks to doing this. It's all hard work. You know, that's what, that's what life is. That's what it's about.

What advice do you think you'd give your younger self from, say, 10 years ago?

You know, when I first went. So growing up, I was the entrepreneur kid. I was like, door to door selling crap and starting car washes and taxi. I started this taxi. I grew up in Park City, Utah, and I started a taxi business during Sundance Film Festival 10 years before Uber was invented. And now Uber brings cars into Sundance. But, you know, like, I was on this entrepreneurial path and I was making money and I was fulfilled. And then I went to college, and then I let my mind get filled up with other people's wants and wishes. And I didn't waste 10 years of my life, but I kind of spent 10 years of my life fulfilling other people's wants. And so if I could go back, I don't know that I would say, oh, like, don't go to college. Don't, you know, get an education. Don't go get these great experiences. I mean, granted, investment banking is an incredible experience. I would say my whole career now is built upon that. People hire me now because they like that skill set. They like that I work hard, they like that I know how to dissect companies and build financial statement models and all that. So I wouldn't change doing investment banking. But there's something to be said for just following your passions right off the bat. And, you know, if you don't know what you want to do, then, yes, college and working for other people, those are great. But if you do know what you want to do, just do it. And put one foot in front of the other every day and just don't take no for an answer.

I love that. And our background is so similar. It's like, scary because when I was a kid, I had, you know, I was the kid with the lemonade stand. And then I would go door to door with, you know, before, like the big cookies, I'd go around and give everybody free samples of the big cookie. And then during graduation, birthdays, people, I had big guy cookie company and I had all profit because I'd use my parents like flour and sugar and eggs and butter, and I'd go around and sell cookies. Then in high school, I was like the corsage guy. I was like the corsage mafia. So you had to go through me if you wanted to get flowers for like, you know, homecoming or prom or whatever it was. And. And then, yeah, I got to college and I did the exact same thing. It's really, really interesting how that, how that kind of happens. And then it kind of, you realize, oh, wow, wait, I was really happy as a kid. It's almost, it's almost like you kind of need to look back at what you like to do as a kid, as an adult, to kind of figure things out for yourself. So what advice would you give that person who's, let's say, in the cubicle right now, Procter and Gamble. I love picking up Procter and Gamble. And they feel like a cog in a wheel. And they don't know how they're gonna get out, right? Because they're not that they're not like super young, maybe they've got responsibilities. They got a mortgage, they've got kids, they've got a spouse. How do they start dipping their toe in the water to fulfill their passion? How do they become an Alex Grodnik?

Well, let me tell you how to get yourself on the path to making hundreds of dollars per week. So, you know, this is one of these things we talk about on my podcast, is that it's always easy to go from or easier to go from a big company to a small company. So you work at Procter and Gamble, you're getting great skillset, great connections, and like, people value that name, it means something. Versus if you started your career off working out of your garage for some no name thing and it fails. Granted, you probably got some good life lessons, some good tools, but no one's going to put any value on that. So it's always easy to go from a big company to a small company. So you have that on your side. And so the other, I would say the other main takeaway from my podcast is that no one has any clue what they're doing in the beginning. And it's the, you're either in life, you're either a doer or you're not. And if you're a doer, then every day you wake up and you put one foot in front of the other and you have no idea what you're doing, but you're learning and you're failing and you're succeeding and you're failing, but you're just not. You're just moving forward. Every day the non doers wake up and say, you know, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to code, I don't know how to build a website. I don't know how to make a podcast. So I'm just not going to do it. And that's the differentiator between the people that have incredible success and the people that just, you know, work for somebody else, which is still good. Like, the world needs tons of people that work for other people. And like, it's not. The risk is not for everybody. But if the risk is for you, then you need to just start taking baby steps every day. Like, when I started my podcast, I had no idea. I knew I liked listening to podcasts. I didn't know what it entailed making one. I didn't know what it entailed building a website for one or getting guests for one. And you just start doing it, and all of a sudden it's like a little snowball running down a hill. All of a sudden it starts to get bigger and bigger and people start listening to it and they tell their friends, and before you know it, you. You have something. But it would never be anything if you didn't put opportunity ahead of uncertainty. You know, it's hard taking that first step.

I love that. Putting opportunity ahead of uncertainty. That's a tweetable quote for sure. So, Alex, you know, when you said, you mentioned the word success and what do you think of when you hear the word successful?

You know, you said it earlier, Mark that earlier generations never really thought about happiness. They thought, am I getting it? Do I have a job? Is it a stable job? Am I putting food on the table for my family? Check, check, check. Okay, then that's my life versus my generation. These younger generations, we're all caught up. And, you know, are we maximizing every day and are we fulfilled and are we happy? And does my office have a yoga room and do I get, you know, cold pressed coffee at my office? And so you need to figure out what's right for you. For me, I. I'm a hustler. I'm not a guy that functions well, being told what to do all day long. I like shooting from the hip and, you know, figuring out new ways to do things and talking with people and pounding the pavement, but that's not. That's not right for everyone, but it's right for me. So, you know, I'm taking a swing for the fences right now. If it works, great. If it doesn't work, I'll have learned a lot. I'm learning just as much going through all my startup stuff right now as I did in investment banking. But if it doesn't work, you know, I can. That's kind of what the MBA is good for. I can fall back on that. I'm sure I can always get some kind of, you know, corporate job, but hopefully I don't have to do that.

Yeah. You know, it's so funny. It reminds me of the book I'm writing right now that is the companion book to my first book, Dirt Rich. So Dirt Rich is about how I create passive income with land investing. It kind of talks about my story, and it's more of like a business how to book. Right. But the companion book is called Coax the Cat, and it really talks about those sort of softer principles about, okay, now you've got money and you're still not happy. Right. What are the things that are really going to have to keep you fulfilled? And so I talk a lot about gratitude and mindfulness and deepening relationships. And. And then I had. Somebody asked me, like, well, who do you. Who are you to write this book? Like, why are you writing something? Like, well, you know, I'm probably not the right person to be writing it, but why not? Because it's. It's my story and I don't know, I'm just doing it. Yeah, it's kind of like that's the great thing about living in today's world is anything you want to do now, you don't need permission. You can just do it, Right?

Yep. There aren't these old gatekeepers. You know, you want to make a. You want to make a short film, put it on YouTube, free, easy, boom. You want to make a podcast and document with interesting people, do it. Want to write a book, self publish, Amazon, do it. Like, there's no. There's nothing stopping you from doing any of these things.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, Alex, right at that point now in the podcast, where I'm gonna put you on the spot, I'm going to ask you if your tip of the week, a website, a resource, a book. I think your mentorship has been Great for this podcast, but I ask you for one more tip, something actionable where the art of passive income listeners can go right now. Improve their businesses, improve their lives. What do you got?

Yeah. So it's called rejection therapy. And basically my whole discussion so far has talked about just not taking no for an answer. And a way that you can start building up to not taking no for an answer is through what's called rejection therapy. And the process is actively seeking out rejection every day. And over time, you become desensitized to the fear of it. So right now, everyone's afraid of hearing a no. Like, no one likes getting told no, but once you start getting told no over and over and over, the fear of it just goes away. So the way it works is you start off asking someone for a stick of gum or a high five or to take a selfie with you. And you know, over the course of this, you're going to see you get a lot of yeses or a discount at a restaurant or, I mean, there's a million examples of it. But over time you become not. You desensitize yourself to the fear of rejection. Just like if you were a germaphobe, you could put your hand on, you know, the railing of a subway or something. And over time, you're not going to be afraid of germs anymore. Same thing here. So desensitize yourself to the fear of it by asking for little things. And over time, short amount of time, one week, two week, you can start to ask for raises at work or new jobs or someone to go on a date with you. It's amazing how quickly it works. And so most people try this for 30 days. You know, on day zero, day one, it's hard to ask for a stick of gum. By day five, day six, it's easy to ask for a stick of gum. And by day 14, it's easy to ask for anything. And so that's my advice and that's my ask of you to try.

So my whole life has been delving into rejection therapy. So I love that we actually teach that in flight school. Is there a resource that you would recommend where on day one, it sort of prompts you ask for. Day two, ask for a discount at your favorite coffee shop. Day three, give someone a high five. Day four, collect five no's, right? This is something like that. Is there a resource like that?

You know, I don't, I don't know of one. But you know, people can email me alexallstreet oasis.com and I've talked about rejection therapy before, and so I've got expansive lists of things you can ask for. So if you're. If you're striking out, email me and I'll set you on the course to it.

Alex, we should do an app. The rejection therapy app. I like it just pops up heads like Headspace app. Yeah, like this mindfulness meditation with this guy kind of guiding me in all these different packs. Like, we could do rejection therapy package. We should packages. It's not a bad idea.

Yeah. Okay, well, let's discuss offline Mark another business.

Yeah. All right, so my tip of the week is learn more about Alex Grodnik and his podcast@wall streetoasis.com podcasts and I will have a link to it. But, you know, clearly you can tell that Alex is a really bright guy and he's got great guests. You know, I'm just looking at his site right now. Trading guru Gene Rubio. He had on, you know, a guy that just graduated from Wharton, taking a startup through yc, which is very difficult to do, you know, so just phenomenal how to become an entrepreneur from the founder of Google Voice. I mean, this is really, really a great podcast to start subscribing to. And yours truly was on the podcast. And Alex, I mean, I think we both agree, probably the best interview you've had, right?

Easily, Mark.

Easily. Yeah. See how I stroke my ego?

You got to do it some way.

It's so fragile, Alex. It's just so fragile. But I really appreciate it for sure. And I'm definitely the least accomplished of other people on your. On your podcast list. So I really appreciate you. You slumming it with me. So thank you.

Well, thank you, Mark. This was a lot of fun to do.

This is great. This is great. And I want to remind the listeners that the only way. The only way we're going to get the quality of guests like an Alex grodnik from wall streetoasis.com is if you do us three little favors. You got to subscribe, you got to rate, you got to review the podcast. Send us a screenshot of that review to supportlandgeek.com we're going to send you for free our $97 passive income launch kit course. So please do that. And again, this podcast is sponsored by GeekPay IO just go to forward slash GeekPay to set up your first note for free. Alex Grodnik. Are we good?

We're good, Mark.

All right, well, I want to thank everybody and let freedom ring. See you next time.