From Pushy To Magnetic—The Secret To Getting More Sales

Hey, it's Mark Podolski, the land geek with your favorite niche real estate website, www.thelandgeek.com. and today's guest is going to help us with the thing that we all want help with. Making more sales. But before we talk to our guests, I'd be remiss if I didn't properly introduce my co host, the brain, the professor. You know you love them, Scott Todd. Scott Todd.netlandmodo.com if you're not automating your Craigslist and your Facebook postings, posting domination.com thelandgeek and of course, learn more@investorninjas.com Scott Todd. How are you, Mark?

I'm great.

How are you?

You know what, my pulse is still normal, my respiration's fine and I can track it now. And I'm really going to try to convince you to get the Apple watch because I know my heart rate and you don't.

Well, I know that my heart rate is still pumping because I'm still here. So what's a number, Mark? What's a number? Seriously, like, is this something that you're now obsessing over? Like, oh my gosh, what is it now?

You know? You know what I'm really obsessing over though? Making more sales. You know who's going to help us make more sales? John Livesay from johnlivesay.com if you don't know John, he is known as the pitch whisperer.

Shh.

He's a sales keynote speaker and shares the lessons learned from his award winning sales career at Condon S. In his keynote, better selling through storytelling, he shows companies sales teams how to become irresistible so they are magnetic to their ideal clients. After John speaks, the sales team becomes revenue rock stars who know how to form an emotional connection and a compelling sales story with clients. His TEDx talk, Be the lifeguard of your own Life has over 1 million views. His bestselling book is better selling through storytelling. And he's also the host of the successful pitch podcast which is a big deal. Heard it over 60 countries. John's a big deal. He's been on Larry King and John Livesay, welcome.

Thanks, Mark. Thanks, Scott. Great to be with you both.

John, let's rewind the tape and let's go to Conde Nast. What's going on over there? What happened where you became like the pitch whisperer?

Well, I was there for about 15 years and my job was to take the brands which you probably know, some of them, gq, Wired, Vanity Fair, Arc Digest, and explained to Brands like Lexus Cars, why they should run their ads on those brands, print websites and then eventually some video platforms. And that really was the genesis of learning how to tell good stories because each brand had a different story and of course each model of the car had a different target audience to reach. So it was that variety of pitches and stories that trying to find that fit like a puzzle. And that really is where I crafted my selling and storytelling skills. And then in the last five years, I've been giving keynote talks specifically to audiences that have to win bake offs, shootouts, beauty contests, interviews, whatever you want to call it. You know, when it gets down to those final two or three, an ad agency has to do this to win new clients. I had to do it during media day when a big account like Lexus would bring in all the reps to pitch. And I know that whoever tells the best story in those one hour bake offs, shootouts, whatever you want to call them, is the one that's going to get the yes and not the one that tells a bunch of boring information.

Very interesting. And would this model of storytelling work with any size company or is it basically Fortune 500 company?

No, it works with anybody. I mean, if you, whoever tells the best story to get hired. If you're in the real estate business. I just gave a keynote talk to the Redfin company, you know, that uses technology and different way of compensating their agents to get people to do it. And real estate agents have to do this all the time to get a listing. You know, typically the seller of a home will say, okay, I'm going to see three agents. Everybody come in, do your dog and pony. Show me what you're going to do to sell my house. How much you think it's worth? What? And that's, that's the same exact situation, Mark. So again, if that real estate agent who, who's pitching someone to give them the listing can tell a better story of someone else they helped, who had a house or condo very similar to theirs, what they did that separates them from the competitors, whether it's social media or cool party, not just another open house, then people say, ah, I see myself in that story and I want to go on that journey with you. And therefore, storytelling allows people to not have to push. The old way of selling is, you know, hire me, hire me, Buy, buy, buy. Give me the listing, whatever it is. And the new way is storytelling. So instead of pushing, you're pulling people in because stories are magnetic. And then you become magnetic and you can let go of this Persona of being a pushy salesperson.

I love it.

I'm a big believe stories. Stories are meaningful. But Mark goes in and tells a story, and I go in and tell a story. Because we. We both listen to you. Listen to you. We're gonna go in and we're gonna pitch our story.

Yes.

How do I beat Mark? Like, what's the secret sauce like? I mean, we can all go in and tell stories, but there's gotta be something different to the story that's gonna close the deal. Because how? I mean, like, they might just like Mark's story better than mine. Is that what it is? Just. Or what's the recipe to get me and my story over Mark's?

I mean, Scott, no offense, you lack warmth compared to maybe.

Maybe. But I do tell. I think I tell better stories.

Mark.

Got it.

No, you do. But it's like, look, do you want to go to the horror film and hear that story.

And walk out feeling that's hilarious? I love the rivalry.

Let's see what the expert says.

Well, there's a lot. First of all, Scott, my mission is to help as many people start telling stories. So, you know when in these situations where it's between you and two other people or two other firms, 90% of people are not telling stories. So just the fact that you're telling stories sets you apart. Now, it is definitely my goal on this interview to give your listeners the secrets to telling a good story, and then we can get into the nuance of what's going to make the story better. And ironically, what Mark was teasing you about is a big factor. So there's three unspoken questions that everybody has when they hear you pitch anything. The first one is, do I trust you? It's a gut thing. In fact, the handshake came about to show you didn't have a weapon in your hand. And then it moves to the heart. Do I like you? And that's what Mark was teasing you about. The more empathy you show, the more likable you are. And then it moves to the head where people are listening to you tell that story, and they're thinking to themselves, will this work for me? That's worked for those other people. But can I see you doing the same thing for me? Now, here's the secret, Scott and Mark. You are not the hero of your story. The client is. I want you to think of yourselves as Yoda in Star wars or the Sherpa helping people climb up Mount Everest. And when you tell a story with that context, Then people are going to see themselves in the story and want to have you as their Sherpa or Yoda. And so we can get into what makes a good story. And I can give an example, but I just wanted to let that land first to make sure that answered your question.

Okay, yeah, we totally understand that. So let's get into the nitty gritty of breaking down the elements of what makes a powerful, compelling story, where the listener or the client or whomever you're trying to persuade is the hero of that story.

Yes. I think it's important first to say that there's three things you have to do when you're telling a story. To sell, you have to sell yourself first. Then you sell the company, even if it's just a one person company. And then you sell the product or service. Most people forget the first two and jump right into the features and information of the product or service. So selling yourself is telling your story of origin. So when I was working with an architecture firm, when they were up against some other architects, they would get to the team slide. I said, all right, what are you going to say here? And they're like, well, my name's Bob. I've been here 10 years. This is what I do. I go, okay, that's not memorable. There's no story there. And I started asking them questions. And it turned from that to, you know, when I was 11 years old, I played with Legos and that's what inspired me to become an architect. Now I have a son that's 11. I still play with Legos with him. I bring that same passion I've always had to this project. Okay, great. What do you do, Sue? Well, before working here, I was in the Israeli army. And I bring that same discipline and focus I learned there to make sure that if you pick us, we're going to make sure this comes on time and under budget. From the discipline and focus I learned in the Israeli army. So there's how I turn team stories into memorable hooks that people go, oh, I get who they are. I want to work with those people.

I love it. More, John, more.

So turning a case study into a story, usually again, back to the architect example. They would show before and after pictures of. Here's what it looked like before we came in and redesigned the airport or the law firm, and here's what it looks like after. So those pictures are great, but other people have pictures of before and after. So where's the story? So a story has four elements. The exposition, who, what, where, when, paint the Picture the problem. You're solving the solution and the secret sauce, the resolution. So, Scott, if Mark doesn't do the resolution and you do, you're going to beat him. So exposition with Gensler. I said, all right, you're the top architecture firm. Let's hear this story. They said, all right. Two years ago, we helped JetBlue at JFK renovate this whole terminal. The challenge was we had to rip up all the floors in the middle of the night and get it done so that the retail stores could open on time. We knew of all potential things that could go wrong because we've been doing this a long time. So we had all our vendors on call. Sure enough, at 2 in the morning, a fuse blew. But we had somebody there in 20 minutes, fixed it. And at 8:59 in the morning, the last tile went down and all the stores opened at 9am on time. Not one penny was lost. And a year later, their sales are up 15%. Because that renovation has caused people to spend more time shopping exposition. We painted the picture, told them where it was, the problem. We turned it into a story. There's a little bit of drama and conflict there. And then the solution was it got done at 859, you see the suspense. And then the resolution. A year later, revenue's up 15%. So if you just tell, you know, if you don't tell what life is like after you fix the problem, or if you just got up there and said, we're somebody who uses critical thinking to anticipate problems, that's not really as memorable as a story where you show it instead of tell it.

Okay, so, John, can we get really, really down to details like our niche?

Yes, please.

Buying and selling raw, undeveloped land.

Yes.

So the hero for us is going to be our buyer that wants this asset that essentially lasts forever. There's no restrictions. You can do whatever you want on it and potentially can go up in value. You have generational wealth. You're going to build your net worth. So there's all these benefits to it. But how can I not. Scott, you can drop off now. How can I create a story. Yeah. Where I'm leading that person, you know, as the hero of that story, down the path of land ownership, with the resolution being you've got this generational asset that is only limited by your imagination. Or it could be, you know, something else that I'm just not even thinking about.

Yes. Let me ask you a couple questions so we can hone in a little details. What made you get interested in raw, undeveloped Land.

For me, it was. I wanted to quit my dead end job as an investment banker and this was a way out.

Okay, got it.

So to build wealth.

Yeah, got it.

Okay.

Yeah, all right, got it. So this again, this is rough, obviously, but it's probably a little more the right direction than what you might be doing now. So this would be something you could say at an elevator pitch, a cocktail party. He's like, hey, what do you do? You're a land geek. What does that even mean? Or you have this. I've listened to you and Scott, but I really don't get what you do. And he said, you know, picture this. Five years ago, I was sitting at my desk as an investment banker and I'd gone to school to do this, and I was completely burnt out. The hours, the stress, I just couldn't take it anymore. And I kept thinking, there's got to be something better than this, where I could have some freedom. And I remembered the movie Gone with the Wind when Scarlett o' Hare's dad said to her, land, Scarlett, they're not making any more of it. Get land. And I also always use that quote with a slight southern accent. And so I thought to myself, wow, if I became a person that could help other people who wanted to invest in something that has such huge potential. I mean, think of it. It's undeveloped people, it's raw. You can paint your own picture. And buyers say, you know, I don't really think the malls are the future. I want to do something else. This is the place to do it. And so I found people who are just like you, who have money to invest and want to build it. And I know exactly where they want to go with it. And they want to build their net worth today. Because as you know, they said they're not making any more of it. And the thing that I love most about helping people increase their net worth while creating something great is that they're building a legacy for this generation and ones to follow. Because let's face it, the money you buy and a car, there's no legacy there. Wouldn't it be great if long after you're gone, that your future generations are grateful to you for buying this raw, undeveloped land and turning it into something that's made an impact on the world. That's how I tell that story.

I love it. Now, would that be just as powerful in copy as it would face to face?

Yeah. Emails, websites, all that. Your story of origin. Most websites have an about page and telling that story is really where you put that Scott.

Todd, what do you think?

I think it's pretty good. Now, I have a question, John. All right, like, when. When I get up there and I tell the story like that about me, like, nobody cares. Like, people really don't care about me, or they care about their own dang problems, right?

Like.

Like you were talking about, like.

I.

Played with Legos when I was 11.

If I heard that, I'd be like, so what?

You played with Legos when you were 11? What's that gonna do for me today? And I know you kind of answer it with a saying, oh, I bring the same enthusias, but, like, to me, that doesn't. Like what Mark's story there. It's a great little fluff piece, but, like, man, like, I'm missing it, right? Like, he's got to go back and show the resolution. I think.

Can I just jump in here? You can see Scott lacks warmth, because if I heard that same story, I could connect immediately as someone who has a son that loves Legos. I loved Legos as a kid. It creates that immediate bond. So there's this new thing out there, Scott, called rapport.

Yes, right?

It's called the what?

Rapport.

It's called rapport.

Oh, no. Come on, man.

I think. I think. Let me reflect back what I heard you say, which is what's known as active listening, which is a great way to build rapport as well, which is something that a lot of people are not skilled at doing. And you have not accepted the premise that you have to sell yourself first before you sell your company or your product, because you are someone who has a mindset of, let's just get to it. However, I promise you, you buy emotionally and then back it up with logic. If you go buy a sports car, Lamborghini, Ferrari, whatever it is, they don't say, this gets this many miles to gallon. They're gonna say, scott, imagine how sexy you're gonna look in this, how fun it's gonna be to drive this car. They tap into the emotions. That's what storytelling does. And if you're trying to become memorable and people hire, you know, like in the case of Gensler, they were told it's between you and two other firms. You all have the skills to design this airport. We're going to hire the people we like the most because we got to work with you for five years. If you don't tell a story about who you are, how they possibly going to get to trust, like, and know you. So that's what's in it. For them to listen to that story and what you're going to say that in fact makes you memorable. So let me ask you the same question, Scott. What in the world made you get into raw, undeveloped land and want to work with Mark?

It was all about me, honestly. Like, it was about, like my job was coming to an end. I had to get out of the rat race. And so, like, I listened to this guy called the land geek. I followed everything he said, and I replaced my income in, like, a blinks of an eye. Right. Just by following what he said, not thinking for myself. So it's all pure greed on my part.

Got it. But you have been on a little bit of a hero's journey from hating what you did.

You have the hero's journey. That is. Right. I do have a good story there.

Yes. So if other people can see themselves going on that same hero's journey and want the freedom you have, the resolution of your story would be, what is my life like now that I don't have to worry about paying bills?

Yes.

And it's much better than Marx's.

And John, he's not exaggerating, this guy. He's the marine of life. He's a pilot, so he flies. He has. He owns a boat. He's in Tampa. So he's on the water and then on land, he actually is just building not only his own net worth through passive income, but he's giving back. And he's like the Sherpa, helping other people get to where they want to be.

Yes.

He's like that land, sea, air. Air dude.

Right.

Marine. So I don't even know how to picture it, but.

Right. I think this concept. Yeah. I also picked up some hesitation on your part, Scott, that you don't care about anybody else's story, so why would anybody care about mine? Would that be accurate?

No, no, that's not accurate. The reason I'm saying this is like, there's a guy out there. There's a guy who. Who wrote a book, storybrand. Right. Like Donald Miller. I don't know if you've read his stuff or not.

I know of him. Yes.

And you know, the one thing that kind of. I'm gonna say the one thing that rubbed me in an interesting way was that the premise that I just took with you was basically his premise too. It's like you go to someone's website and it's like, hey, this is who I am, and it's about me. And I see this happen on other land investors, people that we're Trying to help as well. They create a website like, hey, look at me. I'm. You know, this is who I am. We're brothers or whatever. And honestly, like, someone's going to your website, that's a nice little story piece behind. But they're going there to solve a problem. And you might be able to solve their problem, but to lead with that, to me, is not the right step. Right. Like, it's here. Let's help. First you identify the problem. This is what you talked about. Identify your problem.

So let's. Let me clarify what Mark's question was to me. He said, is the concept of storytelling something that can be used in a website and on copy?

Right, Right. No, that's right.

My answer to that was yes. In the about section of your website, it is not. If you go to Donald Miller's website, you will clearly see I went there myself just now. There's an about page. So I guess. But the message of what he does is the middle. The same thing. For my website, whoever tells the best story gets the sale. I don't talk about my story of origin, but it's there for people who want to know it once they know that I can solve their problem.

Right. And that makes sense so. Because before we're going to transfer any kind of value to somebody, we want that extra assurance about that person's credentials. Right. So I go to your website, John. Okay, here's.

Can I trust you? Do I like you? And will this work for me? Those three things that everybody who's successful answers somewhere, either in person or on their website. It's just a matter of Scott's priority. And I agree with you, Scott. You definitely need to say, here's who I help and here's what problem I solve. And guess what? Here's what life is like for them after I've solved their problems. In the case of executive search firms that I gave a keynote talk to in Vegas at the Four Seasons, they were saying, you know, we can't control what order we present in. We asked to go last, hoping that'll make us memorable. But you telling us if we tell a better story, not just of who we are, but of other firms we've helped and placed and what their life is like after hiring us. That story makes us memorable, even if we go first. So now they're winning more new clients from using storytelling as a sales tool. Not a branding tool, a sales tool. That's my unique niche.

Yeah.

You know, Mark, that's the thing is, like, you know, when you think about what John saying and you think about how you can apply that. One of the things that we don't do often enough is we talk about the land but then we don't talk about like our customers success on that land journey in the resolution of it. Like I mean like the guy that you have on your website, you know the. I forgot his name. But he gave you the testimonial video, right?

Yeah.

What's his name again?

It doesn't matter.

Whatever. We all know.

Yeah, yeah.

So essentially like you have the testimonial video on your website, which is cool. However, that's not the resolution to it.

Right.

Like he's just talking about what a great honest person you are. But there is a great story behind that video that led to this that you could then take and incorporate. Like hey listen, let me tell you how I've helped people on their land buying journey. We did this. And then like take this guy for example. This guy, he now owns his property even though he almost lost what he did because of a health issue or an economic downturn or he lost his job. Here's what he has to say. So it's almost like you could take that piece, incorporate your testimonial videos into the customer journey to the resolution piece. And I think that gets missed a lot of time and John kind of.

Picked up on that.

Yes. If you have a testimonial Mark that's just talking about how likable you are and how the guy trusts you, you've got two out of the three. But you don't have people in their head going, well, will that work for me? Okay, Mark's a nice guy and he's trustworthy. That's important. But I'm still in my head going, do I want to opt in for an email or learn more? What's the next step? I don't know that it would work for me. And then if your testimonials can talk about that then, and then what life is like after it's working for me, then I'm really. You're future pacing people.

Yeah. And that's why I'm going to buy your book and drill down to do all this and at the same time make sure that Scott never gets a copy and just doesn't get the whole concept so that my sales quadruple while he remains flat. So John, I want to know like what is the thing in your, in your sales expertise? Like what's the one thing people do wrong the most that you would say?

I think the thing that People do wrong the most is they think if I give you enough information, you're gonna say yes. I can inundate you with information. You just don't have enough information to say yes. When in fact people buy emotionally and backed it up with logic. And you have to tell a story of why they should care and show them someone else who's been through the exact same situation and use empathy. Maslow said, if the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, you tend to go around looking for a lot of nails to hit. Well, if Scott's only got the one tool of buy from me information, don't tell any stories. Bam, bam, bam. Throw a bunch of stuff on the wall and hope it sticks. Good luck, God bless. It doesn't work anymore. The new way is tell a story, become magnetic. And the biggest mistake I see people making is not telling compelling, concise and clear stories of how it helps people and why they would want to be on that journey.

I love it, Scott.

Todd, I'm still going to beat you in the, in our sales pitch. I got it.

Okay, now what do you have, Scott? Because I want to know. I promise I won't use it.

I already told you, like, you got to listen to me. It's the resolution, mark.

Okay, so the resolution is, before they didn't have this raw land, they had X, Y and Z in their lives. After we were able to make this the simplest, easiest, most transparent real estate transaction that they've ever had. And not only that, we didn't wreck their credit because we didn't do a credit check.

Right.

We're old, old school land sellers. Your word is your bond. They were able to get an asset that they never thought they would be able to own. And now that they that they own it, life is like this. They can go and unplug. They can go out to the raw land. There's no cell towers. They can be closer with their family, their friends. They're impressing their banker with their net worth on their balance sheet, having this asset. And they go to sleep every night knowing that God forbid they don't wake up the next day, they have something of a legacy to pass on to their children. John Livestream, is that a good resolution?

That's a great resolution. What you're really selling there is peace of mind. Before, you were anxious and worried. And now after doing this process which we've walked you through, you know, it might seem overwhelming to try and figure this out by yourself. What if I buy the wrong piece of land? But you have all the step by step proven processes to buy the right piece and make sure that the solution is seamless without even impacting your credit. And now you have peace of mind. That's really what you're the resolution and something that's building and leaving a legacy. You're tapping into all the mindset, psychological reasons why people pull the trigger on something.

Yeah. You know, it'd be great, John, if there was, like, a book that gave you a roadmap, how to do this.

If only.

If only.

Yes, that was the goal. Yeah. I mean, you know people, you're on this journey. I'd be really curious to see what Scott Todd thinks of this, of going from invisible to irresistible. And I talk about that a lot in Better Selling through Storytelling. Each rung of the ladder, where do clients see you? Like, if I've never heard of you guys or the land geek, then you're invisible to me. But I've heard of you, but I don't think I ever want to own land or couldn't. Then it's insignificant. Then you say something to me like, oh, maybe I don't need a gazillion dollars to buy some land. Then it's interesting. Still not ready to do it. Then you really intrigue me with. You start describing someone who's just like me, age wise, income wise, frustration wise, and I'm intrigued to learn more. And then I opt in for your free PDF or whatever it is your next part of the funnel is. And then I actually buy land and give you a testimonial. Then I. You're irresistible to me. I become your brand ambassador. So that's really the roadmap to success, is using those rungs of the ladder.

I love it. And after the podcast, John, I do have 40 acres that we can discuss.

I'm hearing the theme song to Gone with the Wind in the back of my mind. I love it.

So I think your mentorship, this podcast has been really phenomenal. And thank you for putting up with our shenanigans.

I love shenanigans. I love the word shenanigans, let alone the actual shenanigans. Yes, it makes it fun.

But I would like to ask you for one more piece of value. A website, a resource, a book, something else actionable. With the art of passive income, listeners can go improve their businesses, improve their lives.

Yes. All right, Scott Todd, this is for you and all the other people listening. Take out your phone, text the word pitch spelled with a P, keep it clean to this number 66866, and I'm going to send you a free sneak peek of better selling through storytelling. So text the word pitch to this number. Six, six, eight six six and boom. You'll get the sneak peek that gives you all the secrets of how to go from invisible to irresistible and become better storytellers instantly.

I just did it. And I'm getting my, my email right now.

Boom.

Boom. And I think I beat Scott. So that's good.

Be faster, thumbs.

Way faster. Yeah, he doesn't like what I talk about his slow thumbs, but yeah.

It's okay, Mark. It's okay. Don't worry about it.

I know you're sensitive about it.

None of us.

It's okay.

I might not be able to share my tip of the week with you. I'll save it for John. Here we go. Yeah, for John only. And IU Mark. So check out Inyo me I N Y O dot M E NYO me. And basically what this is is basically this is a way to help automate tasks that you just don't like. And it's really geared towards like, you know, freelancers, if you will. But essentially to me, I can see like getting my VA's to use this stuff to help them become automated better and working through. So for example, you can teach them how to automate some reminders or how to, you know, get files that they might need and bring them all in together into a nice fancy platform. So essentially it's got automation built into it, some pretty cool stuff that goes along with it. So, you know, upload and track documents and just everything that kind of a freelancer might need in order to kind of help automate some of their work without having to have me do it. So I'm sharing this stuff with my vas, so maybe you should too, if it works for you.

Yeah, but why not use that beer? How is this different?

Well, this is. This is like a. Think of like a platform that will help them kind of do your work better. Zapier will help automate other things, but this is like another back end component. And the thing is that when you're automating through Zapier, that's really something that it's really to help you automate more than just your VAs, but this is stuff that they need to do and stay on top of. So like basically helping you, helping them to automate their work with a pretty cool platform.

Cool.

I hate when Scott has a good tip of the week, but that is a good one. Well, my tip of the week is learn more about John Livesay and better selling through storytelling. If you go to john livesay.com.

You.

Can learn a ton more there. And just if you break down John's website, you'll see how he practices what he preaches, and it's really interesting how he does that. So even just as his own case study, go to johnlivesay.com and I know nobody can spell it, so I'll have a link to it and do that. So, John, are we good?

We're great. Thanks, Mark and Scott. It was a lot of fun. Thank you.

Good.

We're good, Mark.

All right, well, I want to thank the listeners and just remind you that the only way. The only way we're gonna get the quality of guests, like John would say, is if you do us three little favors. You gotta subscribe, you gotta rate, you gotta review the podcast. Send us a screenshot of that review to support@thelandgeek.com we're gonna send you for free the $97 passive income launch kit course. So please do that. Also, this podcast is sponsored by flight School. Have Scott Todd, be your Sherpa. Climb that mountain. Start earning passive income in real time with somebody working the business with you. That is what flight school is all about. Learn more. Go to thelandgeek.com training and Scott, we ready to do this?

We are ready, Mark.

Let freedom, freedom ring. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, John.