How To Avoid Dumb Deals When Buying And Selling Small Or Medium Size Businesses

Hey, it's Mark Panolski, the land geek with your favorite niche real estate website, thelandgeek.com and on this week's Art of Passive Income podcast, I have, and you know this. We, we spoke years ago, David. Years and years ago. David Barnett, who is going to talk to you about buying a business and making it passive. But David, for those that didn't hear our first podcast together, kind of give your, your bio.

Yeah, sure. So I'm a lifelong entrepreneurial geek, I guess, if we're, you know, if we're talking about, you know, geeks of various stripes. So I've always been interested in business and even, you know, in childhood had those childhood businesses like shoveling snow and delivering flyers and even got creative and, and I did a license brand deal to put my university's official logo onto Zippo lighters back in the 90s, you know, got all kinds of different sort of businesses and business deals, but basically I ended up in the world of business brokerage. And I left that world after doing it for a few years. I sold three dozen companies for other people, got into banking after that, but people who were trying to do these deals kept calling me up and I eventually ended up back in this space doing what I do today, which is consulting with buyers and sellers on how to purchase or sell small and medium sized businesses. And I run a YouTube channel that people find online. That's how I promote myself and I work with people all over the world. And so basically help number my number one mission is to help people avoid dumb deals. You know, all of that Warren Buffett kind of stuff about wealth management, you know, the first thing you want to do is not lose money. And that's kind of the first goal I have when I, when I work with people.

Okay, let, let's, I, I love that. So let's just dig in a little deeper. Define a small business in a medium sized business, number one. And then what would a dumb deal look like?

Yeah, sure. So a, a small business, I define them according to their cash flow. So I use the term Main street because I think the word Main street business, it kind of creates this image in your head. And this Main street business has a cash flow net to the owner under half a million dollars a year. So this is your traditional mom and pop business, but it can also be something like a fuel oil delivery firm that could have 15 million in revenue. But because their cost of goods sold is so incredibly high, you know, 95% of what they charge people gets passed back to wherever they Buy their fuel, it's still going to only be a small business with a dozen people. Right. And, and so the government defines small business usually by according to number of employees other people have. You may classify them according to revenue, but I classify them according to cash flow. And when you're talking about a business that has a cash flow under half a million, a large percentage of the time the owner of the business is the day to day manager as well. And that characteristic is pretty common. There are some different industries where you're going to see professional management. They're usually fairly simple businesses. You know, if you think about a subway, restaurant location, you know, that business probably has a cash flow under half a million. And maybe it's run day to day by a manager, but the owner of it is probably not that far away. Maybe they're, they're kind of supervising a handful of other people that are managing those locations.

Okay, great. In a medium sized business, what's the cash flow go up to?

Well, so above the half a million of cash flow we get into what we describe as the mid market and the lower mid market in my field is typically half a million of cash flow, up to maybe one and a half to 2 million of cash flow. And then, you know, if you get above that, you're sort of in the, you know, bigger mid market. And the reason why I keep couching this with, according to me is, is because if you talk with people in the world of M and A or the world of business, depending on where they stand in this universe, they're going to have completely different sets of definitions. There's a really popular book out there called the HBR Guide to Buying a Small Business, Harvard Business Review, and of course those guys at Harvard, I mean that's serious business stuff, right? And so a lot of people will pick up this HBR Guide to buying a small business thinking it's about buying a Main street business. But right. In the preface of the book, they describe a small business as being one with revenues of $10 million.

Right.

Which is not at all what the businesses I'm talking about are like. When I say small businesses, and this is what I mean by you, you have to understand the framework of the conversation you're part of because this, this whole world of buying and selling businesses, the advice people give, the rules of thumb, you might hear the process even, or even the definition of words is going to change depending on where in this spectrum you happen to be standing.

Yeah, absolutely. In my investment banking days we would do look at mid market as 5 to 500 million in there you go in enterprise value or you know, so, so it's so interesting. So okay, what's a dumb deal, David? You, you know, I come to you, I want to buy a business, I want it to be self managing, I want to get the passive income. And you look at it, you're like, no, dumb.

So a dumb deal from a buyer's point of view is almost always a deal where you're overpaying. And so it's interesting because people will find a business and they'll like the business and then they start to daydream about what it's going to be like as the operator of that business and you know, they kind of fall in love with it. It's been described by people as, as having a, like an illness, like buyer fever. You know, someone gets really excited over it and it will make people disregard certain problems. I'll give you a quick example. Almost every mainstream business is advertised with a cash flow, with a notional level of cash flow called SDE or seller's discretionary earnings. And what this is is the amount of cash flow available to a full time owner operator after every ne expense has been covered. So what that the, the way we get to this number is we say what's the net income of the business? We add back interest taxes because those relate to how the current owner is running it. We add back depreciation because it's a non cash expense. And then we add back whatever compensation the seller's taking out if they're taking out something in the form of a W2 income. And this leads us to the seller's discretionary earnings. The problem is when novice buyers come along, they look at that SDE number and they think that if they buy the business, that's the money that's going to end up in their pocke. But as you know, taxes have to be paid, interest has to be paid, the principal portion of debt service has to be paid. Your labor running that business requires you to be able to take some kind of salary out to pay for your home expenses. That's got to come out of the business. And so that SDE is not the profit. What people will sometimes do is they'll make their purchase decision based on that SDE number and, and they'll over commit the cash flow to debt service. For example, trying to contort themselves into a position where the deal seems to make sense. They'll say, oh, if I pay, you know, a million bucks and this is my debt service, I'll be able to make it. But then when you factor in those other things that have to be paid, sometimes they can't. Or they can only do it by severely discounting that take home pay, which means now they're contributing labor for free into making this business work. And if you have to work without pay to make a deal work, then you're not investing in a business. There's another word for that. It starts with H. Do you know what that is?

What is it?

Hobby. Hobby people, people who put time and effort into their model train set, they understand that they're doing a hobby, right? They know that this is for pleasure. I meet people all the time who do these deals and they end up, you know, working 80 hours a week, taking home 60 grand. And I'll ask them, if you did this work for another big, for a big company down the road, what would they paying you? 120. Well, okay, great. So you're contributing $60,000 of free labor to make this thing go. You didn't buy a business, you bought a hobby. And so that's an example of the kind of dumb deal that I see people do all the time.

Yeah, that's, that's so interesting. And then as far as the, the buyer. What, what should a buyer be looking for? What, let's, let's just take a look at the reverse. What's a good deal to you?

Yeah, so the, the, the price you pay is based on the performance of the business, right? You, you don't want to pay any money for what you will do with the business. Because like the difference between buying a small business or investing in the stock of Coca Cola is that when I buy the stock of Coca Cola, the entire management leadership team remains intact and all of their efforts and their ideas and their plans and everything remain intact. So when I buy that stock, I'm buying into the company, but I'm also buying into this plan that these smart people have to carry it forward. When you're buying a small business, remember, most of these are owned and managed by the same person. When you buy it, that person leaves. And so the entire leadership brain trust departs. There's usually a transition program that you create to help gain some of that knowledge. And typically they stick around to give you advice for a while, but you're the one that has to step in then and run the business. And you have to deliver on any of those potential growth things. So why would you pay someone else for something you have to do? Right. And so you want to look for, you want to pay a price based on the performance of the business. But you want to be fairly certain that you are going to be able to deliver some kind of improvement to the business. Which means you probably should know something about the business or about the industry. Right. I mean, I've run into many, many people, unfortunately, who have completely changed from, you know, working at the post office to suddenly being in the restoration contracting industry. Right. Totally different industry. And a lot of times those people will look at the performance that's there and they'll say, yes, it's going to carry on under my stewardship. But there's a lot of things that that seller knows that maybe took decades of time to, to build up before they could competently manage that business. And it's really tough for someone to come in and just kind of completely make that change while undertaking all the risk. This is why banks put such a big emphasis on the buyer's resume. You know, does this person qualify? Do they know about this industry? Are they going to be able to make something happen in this business or is it, is it a risk? And so from a buyer's point of view, you want to pay a fair price based on the cash flow that's there today. And you want to buy something where you know that you have skills, experience, knowledge, et cetera, that's going to help you make it better. It's not going to make it worth more money on purchase day, but it's going to give you a reason to choose that business. Because if you do grow it over time, then it's gonna, you're gonna look back on that transaction and say, hey, this was a great deal for me.

Yeah. Now to play devil's advocate for a second. So we had a guest on, I think her name, her name was Kim Daly and she helps people buy franchises and she said, you know, it doesn't matter if you've never done yoga, if this yoga studio franchise meets your needs and it is in your buy box and has good cash flow and you know, all these attributes, it could be a great investment. Even if you don't know anything about yoga or running a yoga studio because you're, you're buying the systems, you're buying the marketing. So that type of, of argument, what do you think of the franchise argument where, okay, no problem if you've never eaten Subway, we're giving you all you need to know.

So if you think about franchisors, they are in the business of selling business opportunities, right? So, so gearing people up and training them and having Them perform is actually the business that they're in. Right. Most independent small businesses that you might find for sale, that operator, owner, they're not in the business of selling business opportunities. They're running a business right now. And they, and there's. Every business has systems, but some of these things are going to be in the person's head. Right. And so, so the transition isn't going to be as smooth as sitting down in the first day of, you know, franchise school at whatever the franchise system is. But the other thing about franchises is that if you bring a new, I don't know, new dry cleaning franchise into a town, presumably everybody who needs franchise needs dry cleaning is getting their dry cleaning done somewhere else. So you still have the burden of trying to get new customers. When you open a new franchise, what they're selling you in that system is the, the, all the operation and delivery stuff should be buttoned up really well and you should be able to learn that and execute on that. Right. If, if you're worried about either of those two things, then if you want the comfort of the systems of a franchise, but you don't want the risk of a new business, then go looking for an existing one that's for sale because then you can actually look at the track record of that, of that location. And, and you know, you can invest in that.

Absolutely. So, so you think it's less risky to buy local than it is a franchise because they already have the customer base?

Well, well, if you buy an existing franchise location, it's less risky than starting a new one. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because you already have the customers.

You already have the customers.

Okay. Right. And getting the customers is one of the biggest parts, the biggest hurdles to success for any business of any kind.

Absolutely. So if you were going to create the perfect business and you said, okay, this is the perfect business for a buyer to come in and buy, what would it look like? What attributes would it have? I would say, given the fact that the buyer actually has some experience in that business, so we'll leave the buyer aside for now.

I would say that, you know, a business that has some kind of regularity of cash flow, maybe the customers are on some kind of subscription basis. Those are. And, and these, they're not secrets. Right. These are, these are definitely hot commodities in the world of business. When you have these attributes, more buyers go looking for these businesses and the prices that they pay are higher. So if you could, if you're in a business where, you know, a year from now, this is what my cash flow is going to be because of contracts locked in, customers, all this kind of thing, then that's going to be something that's valuable, something where there's a good margin. So you don't want to be in a cutthroat industry where everyone's trying to, you know, underbid each other. That's another thing that you want to avoid. You want to be able to not have any limits because of labor. There's nothing worse than losing sales because you don't have the people in your business to deliver the product or service. Right. And you know, in this post 2020 world, there's a lot of different industries out there that unfortunately they're suffering. You know, things like restaurants that are still closed on Mondays because they just can't get enough workers. Right, right. They're missing out on revenue or, or they're, you know, one of the things that I notice, particularly if you get off the highway into a smaller town, maybe the gas station that used to be open till 10pm is now closing at 8 and they still haven't been able to get those extended hours back because they don't have the labor. Right. So you want to make sure that there's a pool of talent that, that you're going to be able to hire, that this won't be able to hold you back. So you know, basically it like knowing your customers, the regularity of cash flow, being able to protect your margins, having access to not just labor but all the inputs that you need. Again when, when supply chain logistics, logistics problems exist. There's plenty of businesses out there. You know, bicycle related businesses had a really the end of 21, early 22, because the interest in cycling grew so much that people sold out of their inventory and couldn't replace it. Right. So you know, I remember looking at one instance of a gentleman looking at a bicycle retail business for sale. The inventory was basically down to the, the dent and scratch items and they couldn't get more inventory. Right. Well, I, I can guess what the rest of the years revenue is going to look like when you, when you're in that kind of position. Right. So.

Right.

So these are, these are the things you want to, want to look for or watch out for.

Yeah, it's so good, David. So there's a, an effect I just learned called the Mandela effect. And the Mandela effect is when we all think we know something and it's wrong. So Nelson Mandela, I believe it might have been the 80s. Everybody thought he was dead. Right. And he wasn't. Another Mandela effect is Kitkat Right. The Candy Kit Kat. Everybody thinks there's a dash. It's just one word, right?

Okay.

So like another one is the children's book, the Berenstain Bears. Everybody thinks it's the Bernstein Bears. It's. No, it's the Berenstain Bears. I can go on. There's all these Mandela effects in our, in our lives. What is some of the Mandela effects that people have in buying businesses? So for me, like, the first thing I think of is buy a SaaS business, right? That's going to be great. But I just wouldn't look. That could be a Mandela effect. I just want to know from your vast experience, what are some of the Mandela effects that you see?

Assuming as a buyer that you can run a business the way the seller is running it is probably the most common one. So I'll give you an example of this. And this, this kind of leads into the topic for today about passive, you know, passive businesses. You'll see a business advertised for sale where it'll say absentee owner, right? And so to me and you, what that means is that the current owner doesn't have to be there, which is great, right? Because you, if you're going to buy a business in Pennsylvania, you want to run it from a beach in Florida, right? Ideally, this is what Instagram tells us we want to be able to do. And so, so, but when you dig into that story, what you realize is that the transmission shop in Pennsylvania was managed by that owner for 25 years on site every day. This person knows everything there is to know about transmission shops, and they pick someone to become their manager, and they supervise that manager's development over several years. And then they move to Florida. And they're in Florida enjoying the beautiful weather. They still do payroll from their computer on the kitchen table. They're still dialed into the security cameras on their phone, right? And they're talking to their manager three, four times a week. And they know precisely what questions to ask the manager. And they're looking at the back end of their retail dashboard from their computer down in Florida, too. So they're really doing everything that they used to do in Pennsylvania from their office. They're just, they've moved that to their kitchen table in Florida, Right? And they're able to pull this off because they know the business so well and they know what questions to ask. So if I bought that transmission shop and I tried to do all those things from my kitchen table, I'm not going to be able to do that.

Right.

I have no idea what's going on in there.

Right, Right.

And so, and so, so this is one of the big things, is that, that people will make these assumptions. What you have to develop in the world of small business, if you want to own several small businesses and you don't want to be there all the time, you have to develop what I call the area manager skill set. So think about a chain of gas stations. Right. You can probably imagine one near your house. They're owned by a big company, probably a publicly traded company. Right?

Right.

Each gas station has a manager. Those managers do not run that gas station and then submit financial statements to head office once a year.

Right.

There's some person called the regional manager who is overseeing maybe 12 or 20 locations. And the regional manager is looking at weekly numbers and statistics from every one of those stores and they're benchmarking them and they're looking at changes over time and they're looking at other bits of information about those stores and they're, they're making the decision about whether or not they have to descend upon that location to remediate some problem or not. And they know they need to randomly visit them all at some point during the year just to make sure everything is running the way it's supposed to be. But that person is kind of like a person who decides to own a small business and try to be quote, unquote, passive.

Right.

You, you can say I'm, I'm a absentee passive owner of that business over there, but you are still going to spend time looking at the numbers, looking at the sales, examining reports. The person you leave to manage that business is likely not going to be authorized to go and buy a $15,000 machine for your business. Right? Right. They're not going to be authorized to go down to the bank and get a loan for that business right there. You're probably not going to authorize the manager to renegotiate your lease if it's in a lease location. Right. There's, there's certain C level functions that will likely never be delegated to that business manager who, who could be running the employee schedules and putting all the information into payroll and they could be filling out the orders from the suppliers and managing the inventory and all the day to day that person may be doing. But there's this whole C suite level set of things that you are never going to pass along to that person for a couple of reasons. Number one, that person likely does not have the complete skill set required to do that. And number two, this business is likely going to represent a significant enough chunk of your own personal net worth that you wouldn't trust them with it anyway. Right. I, I often get people, you know, when I talk about how you should know something about a business to buy a business, they'll comment on my YouTube videos and they'll say, well, Warren Buffett doesn't know anything about, you know, the insurance business, but he bought an insurance company. And it's a night and day comparison because Warren Buffett is buying interests in these giant, fully operational, publicly traded businesses, largely where all of those middle management and C suite level activities are being done by people who graduated from top business schools and know what they're doing and have all of the skills and aptitudes required to, to make all those decisions I just described, right. In the world of small business, you're never going to let someone else do those things. And so this, this is why, number one, you need to know the industry, understand the business in order to be able to have that regional manager skill set level. And if you don't have it, you need to develop it. So I've, I've worked with many people who've bought businesses and successfully become absentee owners. And this is the normal path that they follow. They buy the business, they get in there themselves with their sleeves rolled up, they become the owner manager just like the seller likely was. They work with that seller through a transition period and they, they fully immerse themselves and they get to understand and learn that business and then they start working on maybe the things that the previous owner didn't have, systems checklists, you know, operational procedures, all that kind of stuff noted down operations manual. And they build it because they're living in it and they know what is required and then this is the most important thing. Then once they know what's required, they can build a KPI dashboard which is what are the key bits of information that are important to this business that I want to know on a daily or weekly basis in order for me to know what's going on in this business without being here. And so this could be in a retail store, it might be the number of people that walk through the front door versus the number of tickets each day. Right. So that, that walking across the threshold conversion rate, it could be the average ticket value in a restaurant, right. In a hotel, it could be the average room rate ratio like. Right. And so every industry has its own series of metrics that have evolved in that industry. In a lot of small business, that really isn't a publicly Known thing. You've got to get in there and you have to figure it out what are the key things that are important. And you also have to be careful because when you figure out your, your KPIs and you start to record them in the business, people will then say, now I want to incentivize my teams based on these KPIs. So I'll give you an example of one that I heard of. This was for a business that were where they admit people from the public. And you can either pay a fee for entering this place for one day or you can buy a membership.

Right.

Remember I said memberships were great? Okay. Right. So this business will offer pay, you know, one off payment or a membership. So then they incentivized their, their managers to say, if you can get a certain proportion of people who attend to be members, we'll give you a bonus. Okay. So, so the idea was we want to incentivize the signup of more members. But what they were actually incentivizing was that they wanted, for example, 66% of all attendees to be members. So Mark, here's what happened. When they realized they had too many daily admissions, they started letting those people in for free so that they would hit the proper proportion.

Yeah, right.

And so, but by, by not thinking through the incentivization that they were putting in place, they inadvertently lost revenue because these managers wanted to hit their bonus by making sure that the, the people who paid a daily rate were under 33% of those who attended. Right. So in reality, what should have been going on is they should have had a very simple sort of methodology where it says, here's the number of subscribers you have at your location. We're going to give you a bonus if you grow the number of subscribers by a certain amount. And that's very clear. Right. Like let's get subscribers more than anything else. Let's get more subscribers. But, but they wouldn't have been incentivized to admit anyone for free under that scenario.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So, so interesting. So David, what's some of the worst advice you see or hear given in the world of buying and selling businesses?

Some of the worst advice that I hear is that you, that people will, especially in the last year or so with interest rates going up and people still wanting the prices they were getting in 21 and 22 when interest rates were at a 4,000 year low, people are trying to come up with reasons to justify meeting the seller's expectations with respect to price. And so people will Use all kinds of opportunity cost, thinking they'll say, well, you know, if it takes you more than a year to find a business to buy, then overpaying by a year's profit to get that business today makes sense. And I don't think it does because, you know, whenever you put your money into a small business, you're putting your money into a risk vehicle. And all of a sudden then you're exposed to all the risks. There's, you know, risk from competition, risk from regulators, there's risk from, you know, economic risk, you know, we could get into a recession, et cetera. So, you know, if you just sat on the sidelines and put your money into a high interest savings account and worked at a job somewhere while you were looking for a business to buy, you're not facing any of those risks. Yeah, you do still have an opportunity cost. But I would say it makes more sense just to make sure that the deal you do works. You want to buy a profitable business, and it's got to make sense. It's got a cash flow and it's got to properly reward you for the time that you're going to work in the business. And if the numbers don't work, the only leverage that a buyer has is a willingness not to do a deal. So you, you have to know what makes sense for you. And if you can't get that deal, you have to be confident enough to walk away and just stay in touch with that person and say, like, you know, I like the business. If something changes, if you're open to a reduction or you think you might be able to meet me on some of my terms, I'd love to talk to you about it. But if you chase and you, you know, you're willing to do whatever they ask, then. Then you're going to end up with a poor deal.

Absolutely. Never overpay. It's the same thing in the land business and even the KPIs that we look at. How many offers went out, how many deals responded? What was our response rate? How many deals did we close? And then how many deals are on the market? How many deals are we selling? It's really just simple KPIs, but it takes a while to learn it. It's not, you know, like flipping on a light switch. Well, David, this is your, your mentorship is always great. I could talk to you for hours, but I want to be respectful of your time. So we're at that point now in the podcast where I want to ask you for your tip of the week. A website, a resource, maybe a book, something else actionable for the art of passive income listeners to go improve their businesses, improve their lives. Before you do that though, I have to give a shout out to our sponsor, which is Flight School. Learn how the next 16 weeks can literally transform your life. Start building that passive income without any renters, rehabs, renovations or rodents. Scott Todd will be your Sherpa. He's done it thousands of times.

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Go to landgeek.com training landgeek.com training David Barnett what is your tip of the week?

So this is, this is going to, it's going to sound pretty basic, but I'm going to tell you, and I was sharing a little bit before you hit record, before you hit record on this podcast, this one thing has really changed my life in a big way and that is getting seven and a half hours of sleep every night. And I know that when people are hustling and grinding and trying to make sure that they learn everything they want to learn and they're hunting for deals while trying to maybe work a full time job and family obligations. Prioritize sleep because you will not recognize an opportunity that comes past your nose if you're not properly rested and you won't be able to do the math properly and you won't be able to know what works for you as far as a deal or not if you're not properly rested. It's been a game changer for me.

I love it. And I don't know if you know this about me, but I'm a huge sleep nerd and so.

Oh, I didn't.

Matthew Walker, you know why we sleep. And I follow all the sleep things and so I take supplements, so I take magnesium. L threonate, I do apogenin for prostate. So if you're a man listening to this, I do that. And I take glycine as well and I will because I'm older, so I don't want to get up in the middle of the night. I take two salt stick chews and I sleep through the night. I never have to get up to go to the bathroom. But I will say as I've gotten older, seven and a half hours is very tough these days. I'm getting seven pretty consistently, but I wish I was getting eight to nine. It's just I'm not.

Well. I think it's different by individual because from the reading I've done, there's a certain REM cycle I think they call it. And I think the key to being well rested is that you need to do a multiple of the complete cycle so that you don't interrupt yourself in the middle of a cycle. This is what causes you to be really upset or sleepy. So it's for me, if I head to my bedroom just after nine, I will fall asleep probably around, you know, quarter to 10. And then usually at 5:30 in the morning, my alarm sets for, is set for 5:30, but around 5:25,25. I just normally naturally just wake up before that alarm. So it's, it's is pretty much seven and a half hours for me almost consistently.

Yeah, yeah. I mean I, I get really nerdy. I've got an uler, so I keep my, my bed cool through the night. So I was like, it's 66. I keep the room cool. I have the blue blocker glasses seven days a week. I try to keep a very, you know, good routine. So I go to bed pretty much same time every night, get up same time in the morning. I have no alarm because I don't want that, that alarm to jostle my heart. We could go on and on about this. For those of you interested in dialing your sleep, go to TED and watch the Matthew Walker TED Talk while we sleep. But it's, but it's so true though, because it really, it's, it's taking care of future you. If you don't get a good night's sleep, you're the rest of your day is going to be jacked up. You're going to, you're not gonna have the energy, you're not gonna want to exercise. Exercise is so important and if you don't exercise, you're probably gonna be less likely to eat well. So like the whole, you know, sleep, eat, move is just the whole point. I mean the whole fundamental piece is get your sleep right first. I, I love that tip. As good as that tip is, it doesn't make us any money. David, my tip is gonna help us make money. Although does your tip obviously is going to improve our quality of life. It's going to be invest localbook.com invest localbook.com learn more about David, check out his podcast, check out his YouTube channel, check out his books and learn more. So David, are we good?

Yeah. Thanks for having me, man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so good seeing you again. And I want to thank the listeners or just remind you that the only way I'm going to be able to get David Barnett to come back and give us more business wisdom, if you do three little favors, follow rate, review the podcast. Send a screenshot of that review. Support thelangic.com I'm gonna send you for free a signed copy of Dirt Rich. Even if you don't want to sign a copy of Dirt Rich, just do it selfishly because then we'll get better guests. So thanks everybody. Let's Freedom Ring.

Thanks for listening to the Art of Passive Income podcast. Are you ready to learn how you can start building a passive income without renters, rehabs, renovations, or rodents? Schedule a free consultation at thelandgeek.com forward/training let Freedom Ring.