How To Find Opportunity In Low Risk Passive Cash Flow

Hey, it's Mark Podolski, the Land Geek with your favorite niche real estate website, www.thelandgeek.com. and I'm really excited to pick the brain of today's guest. But before we do that, I would be remiss if I didn't properly introduce my co host. You know him, you love him. Six Sigma Scott Todd from Scott todd dot net. If you're not listing your properties on landmodo.com, go to landmodo.com I don't know why you're not. And most importantly, we can always make more money. We can't get more time. Check out posting domination.com the land geek and start automating your Craigslist and your Facebook postings. Today's podcast is sponsored by GeekPay IO, the Set it and forget it system to start automating your monthly note payments. Scott Todd. How are you?

Mark? I'm great.

How are you?

I'm great. I'm great. It's been a while since we've done this. We got to get the cobwebs off.

But everybody, they don't know. They don't know how long it's been.

They don't, they don't. So are you excited for today's guest?

I am. I want to hear about how to take real estate investing in a completely different way. So that's what I'm hoping to pick up today.

Yeah, it's like a mind bender. It's a mind bender guest. I like that. So let's talk about him. Jeremy Rule. Jeremy is a has been an active real estate and business investor for over 15 years and he left the corporate world in 2007 become a full time passive cash flow investor. I'm excited to hear about that story. He's currently an investor in more than 70 opportunities across over $500 million worth of real estate and business assets. 500 million. As founder and president of Rural Investment Group, Jeremy manages a group over a thousand investors in the US and Canada who seek passive managers investments in real estate and businesses. Jeremy also co founded for investors by investors Fibby. I like that. A non profit organization in 2007, the goal of networking with, learning from and helping other investors. Fibby is now the largest group of public real estate investor meetings in California with over 23,000 members. Jeremy is originally from Montreal which means like all Canadians, he's a really nice guy. Is a licensed California real estate broker for investing purposes only, has an MBA from the Wharton school and is an advisor for realty mogul the largest real estate crowdfunding website in the U.S. jeremy welcomes emails to network with or help other investors and discuss any real estate or business investments of any size. Jeremy Roll, how are you doing?

Great, thanks for having me on. Really appreciate it.

So the first question is how the heck, in 2007 at the top of the market, did you go out on your own? What's that story like?

Great question. Thanks again for having me. I really appreciate it. So actually it was even scarier at that time than it looks because not only did I leave the corporate world in mid-2007 for frankly anticipating an economic downturn, but my wife was actually pregnant at the time with our first child and she was eventually to leave her job in 2007 as well. So it was really, really interesting time. But I guess the best way to describe it is that I spent a few years rotating my money from stocks and bonds after the dot com crash into what I call passive cash flow. And at that point in 2007, I had enough money in passive cash flow to live off of and I had a last draw moment in the corporate world where I was actually working for Toyota headquarters at the time in Los Angeles and didn't see eye to eye with my new manager. Really liked having the paycheck and the passive cash flow. So it wasn't my plan to leave, but that happened and took the risk of leaving. But I had a solid enough base of cash flow that was diversified enough and also in anticipation of a downturn that I really, to be honest with you, I really wasn't that worried about having an issue from 2008, 2009. I was a little bit different, positioned as well because I had a lot of my investments in Canada versus the US And Canada has gone through a whole different cycle than the US Actually right now they're in a tremendous bubble in my opinion, in any event. So I did not get hit in the downturn like most people here. And I was also that crazy guy in 2005, six, seven, at the table with their friends at dinner saying that there was going to be a big housing crash and everybody thought I was nuts. And it was really annoying because this went on for years before it actually came to fruition. So I would just, I am very ultra, I'm very conservative, just being ultra conservative and that's kind of how it all worked out. But anyway, that's the long, that's the long story, Scott.

Todd, that's, that's kind of a similar story to you.

Similar, you know, like, you know for me, I could see the right on the wall that, that my corporate job was going to be coming to an end, you know, and, you know, looking back, that's. That's when I started springing into action. I think that the fact that you need to make a change forces you to go make a change and kind of take risks. Because, look, when we're all comfortable in our cozy little jobs, no one's ever going to change anything. It's until you have to figure out, I've got to change something, that's the only time it's ever going to break out, Right?

Yeah. And I just want to say that for me, I was really, really conservative, got an MBA from a great school, plan to be in the corporate world for my entire life, and the prospect of having a big problem at my job, first time I really faced a major problem, like, was really daunting. And right now, I tell you in retrospect that it was probably the best thing that ever happened to me that actually had that problem. And it forced me to make that change, as you mentioned, and actually then take that risk of leaving the corporal, which is something I'd never done before, hadn't really contemplated. And it just ended up being, the way I see it now is probably the best thing that happened to me in my entire professional experience till now.

Yeah. I mean, can you describe that conversation when you first mentioned to your wife that you wanted to drop this lucrative career at Toyota and start on your own?

Yeah. You know, my wife was a schoolteacher. She teaches, or she taught for the lausd, the big la, Public Unified School District. And she is not really that business savvy. She was used to teaching for many years, but unlike all of us, she wasn't focused on investing in business in general. So I was very lucky because I have a very trusting wife. And it really came down to the fact that since we already had that base, solid, very solid base of cash flow that was proven for years coming in, in terms of checks coming in, that it wasn't actually that hard of a conversation because the approach that I took is that we had a couple years of Runway, so I was going to give it two years, give it a shot. We had what I would consider to be relatively low risk, predictable cash flow. I'm really all about the predictability. That's a big key word for me. And if there was a problem, then I would go back looking for a new job. And given my previous corporate experience, plus my MBA and everything else, hopefully eventually I'd find a Job. I'm not saying it'd be easy, but I would hopefully find a job. So we kind of gave ourselves two years of Runway to give it a try. And because we had that padding of a couple of years, I think that was a big help. But I think she knew overall that because I'm so low risk in general my personality, that I wasn't going to do anything to jeopardize myself, our newborn, her, the family, that type of thing. So it really came down to a question of trust after having proven out the passive cash flow in reality.

Okay, great. So let's get into the weeds a little bit about your predictable cash flow philosophy and just your investment philosophy. What is it?

Yeah. So, you know, it's funny, I am literally the exact opposite of an infomercial in that I don't have a website. I try to really lay below the radar. I'm not on that many podcasts, to be honest, but at the same time, I could tell everybody, cash flow has completely changed my life for the better. I went from someone who had to clock into a job, and I had great jobs. I worked at Disney headquarters, GM headquarters, Toyota headquarters, great jobs managing people. But cash flow has just given me just an amazing amount of freedom. And I work from home. I'm able to see my kids in the afternoon. Not that I'm not working at the time, but I'm here, you know, I can see them. And my cash flow philosophy is that I am really low risk. And I try to match that with my personality. And I also try to look for predictability. So I mentioned that I started rotating my money out of stocks and bonds from the stock market. Sorry, from stocks and bonds, 2002 into cash flow. And the reason why I did that is because after watching the dot com crash in 2002, 2001, what really bothered me was twofold. One, which is kind of obvious was the volatility, right? I'm a really low risk guy. And watching the market go up and down 30% a year, which is not the right fit for me. But more importantly, actually, and less obvious probably to the listeners, is that I am just didn't have the lack. I was just a lack of predictability. So in other words, not knowing where my retirement account would be in a year, 10 years, 20 years, just did not work well for me as a retirement strategy. And that's what motivated me the most, probably to rotate into more predictability. So when I say that I look for predictable cash flow and I do it passively, I basically Invest into what are called syndications or managed opportunities where someone's going to buy, let's say, a commercial real estate building, pulling a lot of investors together who are putting small pieces into the opportunity. And then those investors are going to be passive. So the control is given to the operator. And then we get quarterly checks, quarterly reports. And the key for me is that I'm looking for stuff that stabilized, diversified tenant base. So I'll give you a great example. If I could find 100 or more unit apartment building opportunity that's located in a really strong rental area where it's 100% occupied. As an extreme example, let's say a huge city like Dallas, you're in the right area. There's going to be continued demand going forward. And basically, I want to go to sleep tonight, wake up tomorrow, and not much has changed because I depend on that cash flow to live off of. So that's just one of many examples. I can give you the type of profile of opportunity that I'm seeking. So it's been 15 years, and I've been investing these. I'm highly diversified across them. I'm now invested across all different types of asset classes. And I can kind of give you the long list if you'd like, but it's a long list of diversification. And again, the idea for me is I go to sleep tonight, wake up tomorrow, and not much has changed. And ultimately, once you've done this for long enough, you've gotten diversified enough. If one or two deals go bad, it's going to hurt, but it's not going to cause a huge impact, which is really key. And that takes a long time to build up. It takes many years to get properly diversified in this type of investing.

So you're really the money guy. I'm going to do this deal. I want some investors. You're pulling that together. Where are you finding your money from? Where you find your money from?

Yeah, so actually, you got to think of me as really just an individual investor, first and foremost. So in other words, I might get an opportunity from what I call an operator, someone who's pulling people together. They put a property in a contract, they're looking for money. They come to me because I'm an investor myself, and they say, do you want to invest in this? And then, you know, my answer is either yes or no, obviously. And then the way I look at it personally is that kind of my second step is then, you know, I have my own investor group. So it's a little bit different. I know Other groups as well. Because I've built all this network and so sometimes it may not be a fit for me, but I know another group that's interested in it. Maybe I'll introduce them to it. Sometimes it'll be a fit for me, but not for my investor group for many different reasons. Sometimes it's actually a fit for me and my investor group. Most of the opportunities I invested are not a fit for my investor group for many different reasons. And some of them just end up being passed along to my network to see if maybe somebody else is interested. It's just not the right profile for me. But really, in the end of the day, I'm first and foremost an investor and that's kind of the way to think of me, really. I'm constantly spending my entire day looking for new opportunities, networking to find more operators and just trying to find more opportunity to reinvest my capital so I can continue my cash flow stream so I never have to go back to the corporate world. That's really my number one focus.

That's a really powerful why, you know, that'll get you out of bed early for sure.

And you know, it's funny, is that. Absolutely. And I happen to love what I'm doing, which is key. Right. I think everyone out there agrees if you could do what you love, that's probably the best fit, no matter what it is. Right. And so I'm very lucky because I love what I'm doing. I love finding good opportunities. I love knowing that I'm maximizing the situation for myself and my family. But you're right, it's a huge motivator. Right? Because if I stop, eventually the cash flow will stop. And I think that a big misnomer out there is that if you're passive and you have all this money allocated, you kind of just go sit at the beach. Right. But the reality is that you're constantly working to try to find new opportunities to reinvest the cash flow, because things sell, money comes to, you have to continue to build a snowball. And if you don't put energy into it, the snowball is basically going to wind down to zero. So definitely something that is a very long term, ongoing commitment.

Yeah. I mean, this is exactly what our model is. We buy raw land, we then sell it on easy terms. We get our money out of the down and then we've got this cash flow coming in. Right. But Scott and I stay up late at night, like, okay, we got to keep this money going. Right. Because eventually that note gets paid off, and then you have to look for other deals. So for us, it's all about the machine. How can we automate getting this deal flow coming in every single day so that we're never without opportunity? And it is something that we don't discuss enough. But it does never end. I mean, I've been full time land investing since 2001, and that's the kind of thing that would kind of keep me up at night, especially in the beginning, was, well, where's my next deal coming from? I mean, Scott, do you have that same kind of fear when you first started?

Well.

When I first started, no. But like today, like, it gets harder. I'm not gonna say in a bad way, but it gets harder to move larger amounts of money, right? I mean, I think that's like the Warren Buffett way. Like, because, you know, Warren Buffett, he could redeploy his money. Then he got to the point where the only way he could ever redeploy his money was to buy whole companies, right? Like, because if he tried to buy the stock individually, he would sway the market. But then as he as he had to deploy much more money, now he has to buy like entire companies or entire industries. And now, now it's like, you know, he's got a bigger dilemma because he's got to keep his money moving. It's the same thing.

So, Jeremy, you know, speaking of Buffett, here's a guy that goes all in, right, and doesn't have a huge diversified portfolio. Why do you like the diversification as opposed to just saying I'm going to be an expert in, let's say, multifamily?

Great question. And it's interesting because when you consider what I do, in a certain sense, I'm actually all in in a way. And I'll explain it to you because I'm actually a big fan of being all in on one thing. I think if you look at the most successful people like a Warren Buffett's perfect example, you'll see they focus on one thing or maybe a couple things, and they get really, really good at it, expert at it, you know, add value for people's lives in it, and they do very well. And so for me, what's interesting is that my all in is passive cash flow focus, meaning I don't own stocks and bonds, I don't look for active opportunities, and I stay very compartmentalized, looking for my low risk profile of, let's say 75 or 80% plus occupied, stabilized, kind of looking for the same thing over and over and keeping a really, really narrow criteria. That's my all in. What's interesting though is that within my all in, it's almost like saying that Warren Buffett not if you say that he's all in, he still invests across different industries. That's his diversification. Okay, so my diversification is I'm investing across different types of properties. And I do not just commercial real estate, but residential real estate. I have some ATM machines, some cash flowing websites, a couple startups, right. I try to get diversified across that too. But my all in is the focus on relatively low risk, passive cash flow, highly stabilized opportunities. Now for me, what's really critical is that my diversification is across asset classes, geographies and operators, those three. And it's important to be diversified across all three because otherwise I won't be able to go to sleep tonight, wake up tomorrow and not worry that much has changed. Right? So let me give you some examples. Let's just say that I invest. Let's say I decided to invest 100% Florida, okay? Florida is actually a great place right now. There's actually number one predicted population increase for the next 10 years. There's a lot of pluses to Florida. But there's also hurricanes and other issues, right? So let's say I invest 100% in Florida, big hurricane comes in, wipes out half of my properties, waiting on insurance claims, all these other things. Well, all of a sudden that, that predictable cash flow I'm looking for gets highly disruptive. So that's not, that's not a good idea, right? What If I invest 100% across what's a good asset class? Big shopping malls. What if I did that a few years ago, right? Where would I be today? I'd have the same type of disruption. And what if I did 100% across one operator who I just trusted and it turns out that they were either fraudulent, mismanaged, maybe just had a shift in management team, something happened. Because all those risks are always a possibility. No matter what I invest in, I'd have a problem. So for me, I look to diversify across all those three. But I am actually laser focused on one thing. It just may not be obvious until I kind of lay it out like that and hope that makes sense.

No, it totally makes sense. I love it. And it's really sound what you're doing. The people at Wharton must be very proud of you. Jeremy.

Roll. It's very, I won't call it anti Wharton and I don't mean that in any bad way. But a lot of the Wharton grads are either on Wall street, they're consultants, they're heads of companies, they're obviously, most of them are very, very smart people. This is a very alternative type of thing that I did. And actually what's interesting too is that a lot of the word network is comprised of what I would call institutional investors, right? They may lead pension funds larger amounts of money, whereas I'm purposefully, actually non institutional, meaning I focus on properties below the radar of the institutions, so when we buy them, we're not competing with them for their money. So I'm almost the opposite of a typical Wharton grab, but just something kind of different.

That's great. That's great. Jeremy, what is the worst advice you see or hear given in your area of expertise?

Great question. It's hard to pinpoint the worst. But I'll tell you one thing that really definitely gets to me that I've seen recently, which is the most important thing when you're investing passively. I don't care if it's in real estate or startup. A lot of people like investing in startups. They kind of focus on the idea or the property and not so much so on the operator or the person running it. And to me, the number one consideration is who you're making a bet on, the people. So I like to tell people the example of like, I live just south of Beverly Hills here in la, and I can invest in the best building on Rodeo Drive, you know, that's really expensive, is 100% occupied. But if it's being managed by someone who mismanages it, runs it to the ground and then tenant leaves, you know, we get foreclosed, keys go back to the bank. Then it didn't matter that it had the best tenants and the best location. Right. It was all about who managed it. And I find that a lot of the investors that I talk to tend to focus. Not a lot, but some of them focus heavily on, let's say, the investor structure, the fee structure. And they get a little caught up sometimes in, well, they're passing because there's this additional fee and there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone's going to have their own criteria. I'm a big believer in staying very true to your criteria. But I think they tend to not put enough weight necessarily on who they're making the bet on. And like to say sometimes it's worth trading off a slightly worse fee structure in exchange for really experienced operator who's really proven because they're worth it. And so the one thing I would say is that definitely the most important consideration is who you're making the bet on, number one, and then the property and the structure and everything else, number two, in that order. And I find that people don't always put it in that order. So that's something I've definitely learned over the years.

I love it, Scott. Todd.

No, I mean, I agree. I think that especially when you're. When you're going to a management team of a company, you know, like, just because a company has a. Has a fantastic brand name does not mean that it's a great investment. I mean, you really have to go back to understand, like, who is making up the management of that company or that. That operation, because those are the people ultimately that you're betting on. You know, like, it's. I mean, I worked. I worked in a company where the senior leadership team was, like, rock solid. The CEO was, like, rock solid. And, you know, essentially when there was a change up in management, they brought in another CEO that on paper would look phenomenal, but he wasn't. And then he brought in, like, people that he had worked with that were mediocre compared to what had just left the building, and they basically almost ran the place into the ground.

Right.

You know, and it's amazing to see that there was no difference in the people that were doing the work. Honestly, like, the people that were still there doing the work were the same people. The difference was the tone of the leadership, the culture that they created, and, you know, the business that they were creating at the CEO in the C level suite. They can really impact the business. So you really are betting on the people, not necessarily the company per se, or the fees or anything else. You got to depend on the people.

Yeah. So, Jeremy, one last question before we get to our tip of the week. Are you ready?

I'm ready.

All right. What is the best or most worthwhile investment you've made? It could be investment of money, time, energy, or otherwise.

Okay, great question. Now, when you say best, do you have a specific criteria? Do you want to know the biggest return or just the one you've been most happy with? Just anything. Anything.

I want to choose.

Anything. Wherever your mind goes.

God. Can I give you more than one answer?

Absolutely.

Okay, I'll give a couple examples. One of the ones I always quote only because I get monthly cash flow from it. It's been coming since 2008. It's very transparent, is my ATM machines. I invest in private ATM machines, not the ones at bank of America, but the ones at Joe's Liquor Store that have no name on them. And it's funny because I never ever use them, but those are the ones with like the 3, $4 surcharge. And I am the guy that gets a portion of that surcharge. Right?

We had an ATM person on the podcast a while ago and so Scott and I always laugh because we always say like if, you know, like it's just like an inside joke, like oh yeah, you're going to go listen to other podcasts and start investing in ATM machines. So it's like a thing that's awesome.

I'll tell you that.

Wait, Scott, I can't hear you.

Like, can you help me please? I want to buy some.

Well, let me tell you what happened very quickly with my ATMs. I met an operator. In fact, it's funny, this is the power of networking. The first ever meeting that I had organized for foreign investors by investors. When it first started, I actually had Starbucks and three other people showed okay. One of which was this ATM operator who I met. I mean imagine the coincidence in my first meeting ever. And ended up he had 25 machines at the time. He was tapped out on cash, ended up partnering with them, testing the water with them in 2008. And I've now got 40 machines with him roughly. And he's built up to about 2, 300 machines. Here's the problem with that industry because it's so cash heavy and the returns are so high, you know, you have to be very, very careful. I've come across at least two Ponzi schemes that one of which actually got broken up in LA last year was like a couple hundred million dollars, been going on for 10, 20 years. And so just be very careful for anybody listening, that's the problem with ATMs, you got to be very, very careful. But I got lucky, have a great operator. And I've averaged about 38% a year since 2008 on those. So that's been, you know, I get monthly checks and I can log into all my machines and view them real time, see all the transactions, completely transparent. And I get a percentage of the revenue so I'm not even affected by any of the costs. So that's one answer for you. My other answer is that very unlike me, I invested in a startup a couple of years ago which some of the listeners may have heard of called Thrive Market, which is.

I've heard of Thrive Market.

Okay, so actually Thrive, so Thrive Market is actually the largest now seller of non GMO only products. In the US that are non perishable. And I was actually the seed round investor. A friend of mine who's in my investor group actually started it. He was a very smart Harvard guy. He had already built and sold another company and I was the first ever actually order on the site and so it's just blown up and so I haven't done anything with my shares. I have them but the multiple, I'm not even sure what the multiple is. I think I invested at like $0.26 and I think the last round was like $13 or something, I'm not sure. But in any event that's been a weird Michael Jordan situation. And you know, the problem with startups is that you know you're going to be like 1 out of 10. So I've invested in a number of startups that have gone nowhere, gone to zero, you know, over the years. I've only invested in three in the last five years, so I got very lucky with that one. That's just another example. But those two are not my typical investments. You know the funny thing is one of the reasons why I didn't answer like oh, this apartment building, this self storage unit, you know, this mobile home park is because those are meant to be stable cash flow with no major upside. That's how I live. So they're not that exciting in that they're meant for predictability. They're not meant to have this crazy situation. So I could tell you about some great cash flow deals I've invested in, but they're not going to be nearly as exciting, so.

Oh that's great, that's great. All right, so now we're going to put you on the spot, Jeremy, and ask if your tip of the week, a website, a resource, a book, something actionable where the art of passive income listeners can go right now, prove their businesses, improve their lives. What have you got?

Sure. I'm actually gonna give you two real quick. One is for those of you who have never read Robert Kiyosaki, Rich Dad, Poor dad and Cash Flow Quadrant, those two books, I strongly recommend you read both of them in that order. And if you're new to investing or just new to general passive cash flow investing or just looking for a change of mindset over the stock market. Those are two great books to frame a change of mindset and I strongly recommend the people who are new, just really, really interesting books. I won't get into give anyway to details but really, really fantastic. The other resource that I strongly recommend is I don't know about Everybody else, but kind of like Mark and Scott, I have very, very, very tough schedules talking to, like, a lot of different people all the time. And I use something called Schedule Once, which is an online scheduler. Mark uses, I think a different one, but he uses one as well.

Yeah, I use Acuity now. I just went into blab, booklikeaboss.com.

Okay. Yeah. And I honestly could not recommend those types of things more. They sink into your. Like, I have Outlook for Desktop with Exchange Server. They sink into your calendar real time. You're able to, you know, allocate certain times automatically to them. And then instead of having an assistant to help you book all different people, I mean, it's literally all automated. It has saved me a tremendous amount of time. I've been using it for years. And I'm not necessarily espousing Schedule 1 specifically because I know some people like different ones. There's a whole bunch of them out there. But I would recommend schedule ones for anyone looking at one or any of them. They're just huge productivity gain if you're a small business owner.

All right, fantastic. Scott. Todd, what's your tip of the week?

Mark, I've got a book for you. Okay. And basically it's called Barking up the Wrong Tree. The Surprising Science behind why everything you know about success is mostly wrong. And, you know, the, the thing about this book is that it kind of, it, it's. It kind of challenges the conventional wisdoms that you, you think, you know, you know, and kind of puts it to the test and it's balanced back with science. It's a really interesting read.

Check it out. All right, so let me see. Barking at the Wrong Tree.

Wow.

Five stars. Eric Barker. Much of that's told about achievement is logical, earnest, and downright wrong. Huh. All right. Done and done. You'll like it. I like it. Fantastic. Fantastic book. You know, what's interesting is, right there is the Subtle Art of Not Giving an F as well, which is another book that I, you know, I didn't think I would love. I loved it. I was loving it. Jeremy, have you read that?

I have not, no. And I haven't heard either these books, actually.

Yeah, you got to read them for sure.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a note of both of those. Thank you.

Yeah, I mean, Barking of the Wrong Tree, I haven't read, but like, Subtle Art of Not Giving Enough is kind of like the same along the same lines. It's like, you know, all the kind of like the self help guru stuff that you hear no, it's not gonna help you. This, you know, this will. But it makes a lot of sense and it actually, it's not about, like, I don't know. I'm not gonna go on. Okay. My tip of the week is, look, I know I'm definitely interested in 38% ATM machines. Learn more. Go to J roll or not go to. But just email Jeremy jroll at Rawlin Invest or rolandvestments. Com and I'll put it in the show notes and just, you know, you can put in the subject 30% return question mark. Like, really? So, you know, learn more there and get sort of the details of how Jeremy does what he does. If you're interested. I want to thank all the listeners and just remind everybody the only way. The only way we're going to get the quality of guests like a Jeremy roll is if you do us three little favors. It takes you two seconds to do. You just got to subscribe, you got to rate, and you got to review the podcast. If you don't know how to do that, just go to thelandgeek.com iTunes review. We'll walk you through it. Send us a screenshot of your review, and we're gonna send you for free the $97 passive income launch kit. Jeremy, are we good?

We're good, guys. I just really appreciate the time and had to just enjoy the conversation. Thank you.

Thank you. Scott, are we good, Mark?

Great.

All right, are we going to do it or no?

I don't think so.

I don't think so. All right, I'll let Scott send us off.

All right.

Thanks for listening. And you know what? Let freedom ring.