How to Get to Know Anyone in Business and In Life with Michael Roderick

Hey, it's Mark. But also get the land geek with your favorite niche real estate website, thelandgeek.com and are you ready to get smarter? Are you ready to be more referable, more unforgettable? Then tune in for my guest today, Michael Roderick, who is the CEO of Small Pond Enterprises, which helps thought givers become thought leaders by making their brands referable, their messaging memorable, and their ideas unforgettable. He is also the host of the podcast Access to Anyone, which shows you how you can get to know any, anyone you want to know in business and in life using time tested relationship building principles. Going to learn all about that. Mike's unique methodology comes from his own experience of going from being a high school English teacher to a Broadway producer in under two years. Michael uses Broadway informed branding techniques to help his clients find their innovative framework and create offers where they get paid for their brains. Michael Rodrick, you're a big deal. Welcome.

Oh, it's so funny.

So I mean let's, let's just start with the whole high school teacher thing. Going to Broadway, like that's fascinating. And then how that leads you to like, you know what, I can make people more referable, more memorable.

So yeah, I mean I, I basically I was, I was working, I was working as a high school English teacher and I went from being a high going strior to becoming a Broadway producer in under two years. And a ton of people were asking me how and I was getting my master's at the time in educational theater at nyu. And one of the things that we did was we learned about simulations and we learned that when people act out scenarios, even though they know they're acting, they'll often do kind of exactly what they would do in real life. So I started hosting workshops where I would simulate networking experiences. So I'd actually have people act out things like one on one interviews, cocktail parties, and basically simulate those experiences. And I started to notice a lot of patterns in terms of how people interacted. And patterns are always the precursor to frameworks. So as I started to see these patterns sort of over and over and over again, I started to develop a bunch of relationship building frameworks. And when I would teach these frameworks, I'd then have people say, oh well, you've got to meet Mike. And they would like introduce me all the time and they'd connect me to all these different opportunities. And eventually I had people saying, well, how do you package your stuff? Like how do you do that? And that's what led to the whole sort of going down this rabbit hole of referability and asking myself, just like I had done with the networking and the relationship building stuff, what are the patterns that I see in referability and why people talk about us when we're not in the room? And I developed a whole framework around that.

Yeah, but how does Broadway come into play?

So there's a lot that really sort of. That Broadway sort of taps into. One of the biggest ones is that Broadway is really geared towards the idea of a mass audience. Right. It's geared towards figuring out how do you package something and sort of craft something so that a very, very large audience will be interested in it. And as a Broadway producer, very often what you are. In addition, a fundraiser where you have to kind of package things and get people to write you checks. You're also, in essence, a talent scout. Like, you've got to look and find really, really great writers and really, really great projects to bring to these investors. So you develop this, this taste, right. Like you develop this, this eye for things. And what I found was so many people's businesses kind of fell into that same type of category of when somebody has the aspirations to have a Broadway show right there, the description, the way that they're talking about what they do, the way that they share their ideas, usually doesn't have that level of packaging. Right. Like, it doesn't have that polish and sort of that, that breakdown. So I started to just notice that a lot of what I was already doing in Broadway really applied when I was working with a lot of subject matter experts.

So. Interesting. Okay, let's. Let's break this down so that we get really, really tactical and practical. Because I'm an introvert. And like, even when you were talking about cocktail parties and relationship building and networking and even raising money, I felt my skin begin to crawl a little bit.

Yes.

And I can imagine the listener feeling similar and thinking of themselves. Well, this would be really kind of a. A magic pill, if you will. If I could walk into these uncomfortable social situations with a effective framework. Yeah, I'd have this confidence and clarity and, and this capability that I can go in and really not necessarily manipulate the situation, but just be, you know, authentically myself in, in a way that makes me memorable or referable. And therefore the value that I can provide can be become at a much larger level instead of, you know, just my, my cousin and parents who listen to my, you know, my, my spiel about my land business. Right. So how, how do you take someone like me and get them comfortable in something that's so uncomfortable.

Yeah. So I think what I'll start with is, I'll start with probably the most important reframe, especially if you are going to a large, a large scale event, especially if you have more of sort of that like, introverted sort of tendency, right? So basically what you're often sort of seen as or what's being presented most of the time is that you're going there to sell. You're going there to present yourself, you're going there to, you know, wow everybody. And all these different types of, all of these different types of things. And the metaphor that I like to use when you think about sort of any large event, it could be a conference, it could be a cocktail party, whatever it is. There's actually a bunch of archetypes in that event. And if you imagine the event as an ocean, there are a series of things in the ocean. You know, one of those things is a shark, right? So the sharks are those very dominant sort of extroverted, look at me, listen to me. People, right, who are like jamming the business cards in everybody's hands and work in the room and, you know, all those different types of. Types of things, right? That aspect of when you see a shark or when you've been attacked by a shark causes you to basically feel like, well, if I talk about my own stuff or if I talk about myself, I'm a shark, right? You get that framework that, that starts to like, pop into your head because you're thinking, I don't want to be like that person who maybe made me feel awkward or it felt sleazy when I was talking to them or whatever the scenario is, right? So the thing is, you go to this ocean and you see a shark and you're like, I don't want to be a shark, right? And then you also see dolphins. And dolphins are people who love to cluster together and they love to exclude, right? Like they love, like I'm hanging out with everybody else. You're not really part of the crowd, so stay on the outskirts of this particular, you know, of this particular group. So you think to yourself, I don't want to be a dolphin either, right? Like, I don't want to exclude people. I don't want, you know, so now you're, you're, now you're worried about selling yourself. You're worried about connecting with other people because you don't want to be, you know, you don't want to be a dolphin. But then you happen upon really in essence in the ocean, what you probably are Feeling like, which is those who are drowning. Right. The person who's being attacked by a shark, the person who's standing by the bar kind of wondering to themselves, like, what do I do? The person who standing outside of that group of dolphins and being like, what do I do? How does it work? But there's another archetype. And this archetype basically changes the entire way you think about everything. Because that archetype is the lifeguard. And the lifeguard looks around the room and asks themselves, who needs saving. So they might go up to somebody who's being attacked by a shark, they might go up to somebody who's outside of that circle of dolphins or who's standing by the bar and go and say hello and go and take the time to get to know the other person and sort of understand the other person. And in essence, if we just bring this even bigger, that's really. If we're presenting what it is that we do and what it is that we can share and sort of help people with, that's really what we're being, is a lifeguard.

Yeah.

Because what we're doing is we're saying, listen, I've been through XYZ Issue and Challenge, and this massive boulder that you're standing in front of, I've broken it down into rubble. So if I can help you figure that out, if I can help support you in solving that problem and rethinking that problem and approaching that problem in a different way, well, then, is it sleazy? Is it promotional? Is it pushing? Is it selling? No, it's just supporting somebody and understanding what it is that they're looking for and what it is that they need. And that's the other thing. Your brain is going to get freaked out if you're thinking, I need to promote, I need to show everybody sort of what I, what I'm about. You're just naturally, especially if you're an introvert, you're like, ah, that feels freakish. But if you're saying, I'm actually not promoting, I'm doing market research, I'm doing everything I can to understand what challenges and issues this person across from me is experiencing. And then I'm asking myself, where can I help? Where can I be a lifeguard? And here's the really important thing. That may not be your product or service. That may not be what it is that you have to offer. It may be something else. It may be another person that you want to make a referral to or make a connection to that you think, okay, that person could solve this issue much, much better than me. And when we start to think in that way, when we start to approach things from that angle, it becomes so much more comfortable. It becomes so much more easy to do this type of presenting. And the thing is, if somebody comes to you and they help you in some way, either by making an introduction or connecting deeply with you and helping you feel something, what's the thing that you're going to do next? After you've had that encounter, you're probably going to talk about that person, you're going to tell your friends about that person because they took the time to pay attention to you. And the thing I like to say about this is that you can never underestimate the significance of making other people feel significant. Because there's so many folks who just feel like nobody's listening to them, nobody's paying attention to them, nobody really looks at what it is that they actually need and what they actually want. So if you're the person to ask those really deep questions, really understand sort of where they're at, and then if you've got something that can help them, you share that you've got the thing that can help them, and if you don't, you share that you know somebody or can connect them to some opportunity or resource, well, then you're being a lifeguard and you're just going about your life being a lifeguard, you're just going about your life looking around and saying, every interaction that I have, there is somebody that I can help. There's always, you can help anyone. It doesn't matter who it is, doesn't matter what level they're at if you ask enough questions. So the more that you're thinking and asking questions, the more you're gonna discover that and the more opportunities you're going to create not only for them, but also for yourself. Because people love to introduce other people who are great at making connections and supporting other folks. They love it because they know that it's gonna make them look good when they go to their friend and say, hey, you should meet this person. And that person comes back and says, oh my God, they helped me. So, and this is huge. If you're in a decision making capacity or if you're one of those people, like an investor who basically just gets asked for things all the time, how good does it feel when somebody comes to you and they ask you about you, they ask you what they could do for you, how they could help you, rather than saying, here's why my thing's so valuable. And here's why you should give me your money.

Michael. This is so, so great in so many different ways that the mental reframe of the lifeguard, the, the attitude of just being helpful and valuable and going in kind of with no agenda, of just the agenda basically being I'm going to connect and, and see where I can help as this lifeguard. But then the, you know, my mind starts going to, okay, I don't want to be the small talkie person in the, the networking mastermind room or the event that says, so what do you do for a living now? For example, like in our, in our, in our, in our Langi community? It's, it's, you know, we all know, okay, we're all land investors. And it might be, the opening question might be like, where do you live? You know, where are you from?

Yeah, type of thing.

But, you know, if we go a little deeper level, deeper for the people who are land investors, they say, okay, you know, I'm looking to raise money, right? And I know I can get this person a really good return on their money. And, you know, I kind of have this, this value that I can bring. But I'm a lifeguard, so I'm just going to start asking these lifeguardy type questions.

Yeah.

So what would be your favorite lifeguard question to open with?

Yeah, so, I mean, I, I very much like to move away from the professional as, as sort of quickly as possible because I like to be able to sort of get into what's. What's kind of on the deeper sort of scale. So one of my favorites, if it's an event, is what brought this person to the event? Why did they, you know, why did they even sort of choose, you know, to choose to come now if you're all part of the same community and you already kind of know what brought the person to that event. What I like to think about is, like, what was the most most exciting or inspiring thing that happened to you today?

What was the most exciting or inspiring thing that happened to you today?

Yeah, and, and a lot of the time it's like, it's like, oh, well, what, you know, what is that? You know, like, what is that? What's that? So, you know, what. What is that thing? And, and now you kind of have to go back through your day and be like, what was. So what was cool today? Like, what was really kind of interesting and cool that I'd like to share and, and you never know, like, what somebody is going to come up with and it could end up being, oh, well, now we're connecting over that particular thing that we normally would never, would never talk about, right? Or never. Or never share. Because again, we get into these sort of professional realms where we think we should only talk about the profession, but if we're talking about other things, not only are we connecting, but we might be connecting with new ideas, right? We might be talking about something that sort of introduces us to a whole other concept or a whole other side of things. And for fundraising especially, that's major because if you're talking maybe about some kind of other interests that you have, like maybe you love CrossFit or something, and you're talking about that, you never know which of those people are like, oh, my God, you should meet my friend. They also do CrossFit. Oh, and by the way, they just happen to be running a hedge fund, you know, or working in this field or working like, or, you know, they're part of this community. Like, you just never know where people are going to be connected, what types of opportunities there are going to be when we start sort of tapping into those other parts of the world. And it ties to that whole idea of the law of weak ties, right? Where there was that study done by Robert Granovetter of college students. And the first group asked their close friends and family for jobs, and the second group asked people that they barely knew for jobs. And the second group outperformed the first because the people who they barely knew had completely different networks. Right? It was a completely sort of different group of individuals. So the more that we ask about things sort of outside of the, the norm, outside of what we would normally sort of think about, the more opportunities we, like, open up areas into those other industries and other worlds, and you just never know what you're going to discover or sort of what you're going to find.

It's so, it's so interesting the, the way that you, you frame that in the, the law reties. I've never heard of it, but it makes a lot of sense and it's a, it's a really powerful concept. So what, what's interesting to me is that as an introvert, I'm uncomfortable. What I'll tend to do is go into Larry King podcast mode and I'll become very interested in the other person and I'll ask lots of questions and it almost becomes an interview. And I sense sometimes, okay, I'm kind of turning this person off because.

What.

Yeah, it's not a conversation anymore. It's just, I'm Peppering them with questions.

Yeah.

The flow gets. Gets lost and it's. It becomes sort of awkward.

Yes. Yeah.

So I've got. I go into these very good intentions, and now I'd have better intentions at the lifeguard. But, you know, the good intention being like, I want to have. I want to connect, but I'm just awkward in doing it. How. How can I take the questioning and transition it more into this give and take?

Yeah, that's a really great question. And ultimately, what it comes down to is it comes down to the mode of listening that's happening, right? So when we are in sort of active listening mode, whatever we're hearing, we're processing, and then we're sharing what our insights are from it. Right? So there is sort of like, we listen, we hear something, and then we're like, okay, I'm answering this question or I'm adding to whatever the other person has said. If we're in a passive listening mode, what tends to happen is an actor. I would see this happen with actors all the time where scenes would fall flat because the actors weren't actively listening to each other. They were waiting for their next line. And when you're in interview mode, you, in some cases can be kind of waiting for your next line, right? Where you're just like. Like you hear them say something. You're like, okay, that's interesting. Let me ask this next question. Let me ask this next question. Right. And the thing is, if I just keep asking you questions, what ends up happening is, unless it's an actual interview, you start to feel like you're kind of on the spot. Right. Like, you kind of. Like you don't feel like there's a back and forth. Whereas if I ask you a question and you share something and then let's say I ask, you know, what's something? Well, let's just try it, right? Sure. What is something that you find to be just, like, ridiculously fun?

I find ridiculously fun. Hiking with friends.

Hiking with friends.

I find it ridiculously fun because I'm in nature, I'm doing something challenging, and the conversations on the mountain are always very deep. And I feel connected after I leave. And I find that, for me, very fun.

Wow. You know, it. That actually reminds me of. I went to an event a number of years ago and it was called off site. And basically what happened was we went to this, like, gorgeous, gorgeous space out in the Catskills, and it was all of these tech technicians and, like, all of these people in, like, really high levels of industry but we're all like hanging around in the pool and like, you know, doing. The group from Lululemon is doing like a workshop in the pool. And just like what you said, we had this experience where we're just like walking from like cabin to cabin and we were just connecting so much. And I think like, there is such an interesting environment when we take our. Ourselves out of the everyday and we do feel that deeper connection. And I think that's what I. I think that's what it sounds like you're sharing here in terms of why you enjoy and sort of find that sort of hiking side ridiculously fun. What do you think?

I think that's true. I think for me, I have a very difficult time, which is sort of interesting because, you know, we're having this conversation, I'm sitting down and, and I'm staring at you. But I find that it's more comfortable for me to actually have conversations in movement and I'm not directly facing the person. And I can get to a different level of vulnerability when in nature and I'm sharing this experience. But we're, we're movement together versus, you know, it just feels a little too raw to talk to the person face to face.

Yes.

And yeah, connects, especially if I don't know them really well. Even, even my best friends, I much prefer walking and talking and, or even. Even on the phone. I'd rather walk and talk than just sit and talk. So maybe it makes me a better active listener because I'm actually active in that moment. But yeah, so that, that I think is what it is for me. I'd be curious what your, your thoughts are.

Yeah, well, it sounds like what, what you're sharing is this aspect of. There is always a certain level of challenge that we have with any kind of direct interaction. And I see this most in the world of asking. Right. So if I ask you directly for something, if I say, will you do this for me? We're basically engaging the fight or flight response in the brain. It feels like I'm trying to steal your food. And you feel like your food's being stolen in your sub, like subconscious basically. Right. Your primitive brain is kind of freaked out at the fact that I'm asking you something directly. So the thing is that never goes away. So it can. If you've ever had an experience where somebody was like, looking you in the face and saying something to you that really did not feel good or really felt kind of oppressive and intense, then it would make perfect sense that you would feel much more comfortable Walking with somebody, not necessarily looking directly at them and not having that sort of level of confrontation?

Right.

So I'm going to stop there, and I want to pull this apart.

Okay.

I didn't interview you just now, did I? Did you feel like I was bombarding you with questions or sort of like asking like.

Like, you know, very natural. It felt very. It felt very much in the flow of. Of a conversation. I didn't feel interrogated or bombarded with, you know, these. These intrusive questions where I. I felt in a way like, oh, why is he asking me all these questions? What's, you know, what's. What's the agenda?

Exactly. Exactly. And do you have any thoughts as to why it didn't feel intrusive? Does anything kind of come up for you where you're like, why did it not feel int. Why did it not feel awkward? Like the description you were giving of sort of feeling like you're just like, in an interview environment as opposed to just having a conversation.

I think you're just actively listening. And when I would say something, you would ask a question that was related to that. That whatever I was, you know, trying to relate, you know, in a way I felt understood or I felt you were trying to understand versus this maybe awkward segue into something or non sequitur and something else that really was unrelated.

Exactly, exactly. And that's the thing. It's like, if we want to get rid of the awkward feeling like we're interviewing somebody, we want to take the time to actually really process what we just heard and then share with them what we heard and advance it if we think it fits. Right. And we think it works. And here's the interesting thing. That's actually one of the most powerful tools that you have when it comes to really nailing down your product or service or offering. Because I call it the check for understanding, which is what I learned when I was in education. And basically, in a check for understanding scenario, what you do is you teach something to the class, and then you say, does everybody get it? And everybody, of course, nods their head. Right. And then you say, mark, could you tell me what I just shared in your own words? And then you show me whether or not you understood and whether or not you kind of got it right, and you share that particular element. And that's what we can do if we. Let's say, perfect for coaches. Right. If you're a coach of any kind of. One of the best questions you can ask after a coaching session, if somebody is like, well, what kind of feedback can I give you is could you, in your own words, tell me what I just did for you?

I love that question.

You will get so much great language. Your best copy is often in your clients mouths. And when you have those conversations, it's so, so powerful. And one of the things that I think we forget about is that, and this goes back to what we were talking about where it's like it feels awkward to promote. Right. And sort of share. Well, the awkwardness comes from the fact that we are taught to pitch our solution. That is a classic thing we're always learning, whether it be we're trying to get investment, we're trying to get somebody to buy something, we're trying to get them to join our group, whatever it is. We are always taught pitch your solution and talk about the thing that you have to offer. And I did that for years and it did not work at all. I'd have networking meetings that never went anywhere. I'd have instances where people's eyes glazed over all the 32nd pitches that you learn. Whatever. And then I started doing something that completely changed the game, that I would have networking meetings or conversations with people, not even thinking of them as possible clients and at the end having them be like, I need to work with you. And I did one thing, I spent my time talking about the problem, not the solution.

Interesting, interesting. So give me an example.

Sure.

So that's super clear.

Yeah. So basically, if you think about it from a lot of us focus on the idea of a target market, right? And we think, okay, I want to work with dog owners in Peoria who are between the age of 20 and 30, you know, that kind of thing. But very few of us ever think about the idea of a target problem where we take the time to think about something that people are experiencing and we actually define it, give it a name and really kind of break it down. So in my case, one of the things that I used to use all the time was I would talk about the idea of shoemaker's kid syndrome. And shoemaker's kid syndrome is when you are a brilliant, brilliant expert in something, let's say it's marketing or branding, and you help your clients become incredibly successful. You just like, you can solve problems, you can come up with language for folks, all these things, but the second you try to do it for yourself, you just can't. You're just a mess. Like every time you try to do that same thing, you're able to do for everybody else yourself, you just can't. And the Reasoning behind that is that you're just too close to your own stuff. You don't have the same gift of distance that you have for your clients.

Yes.

So often you need somebody on the outside with that gift of distance to help you understand what's going on.

It's. It's so true. And it's, it's even. I mean, it's kind of an everything really. I mean, I have these blind spots in, in so many aspects of my life that my loved ones can lovingly just say to me because they have distance from it.

Yeah.

And it's.

Exactly. And, and the thing that's really powerful to think about in regards to this is the idea of our gifts. The things that we just do really, really naturally also create gaps. So when we are really great at something, it means that we have taken the time to really understand that thing. We over index on that thing. We spend a lot of time on it. So there's naturally going to be gaps in our understanding and the things that we're going to have as much skill in. And it's our job to identify for ourselves what are the gaps that were created by our gifts. Because then we can find the partners, we can find the people who can basically fill in for the things that we're not necessarily doing very well or that we're having certain challenges around. And so, so often the way I like to think about this is that the keys to all the doors you need open are in other people's pockets.

You need to open our other people's pockets.

Exactly. So there, there's almost always something that you have a blind spot on or that's not quite kind of working for you, that is unclear to you, that is crystal clear to somebody else that this works just perfectly for somebody else. And in some cases it's that you work with that person. In some cases it's that you partner with that person. And the way I like to think about this is I refer to it as the triple threat. So if you're familiar in the theater world, there's the idea of the triple threat of the actor, singer, dancer. Right. You can do all three, but the order is incredibly important. So if you are an actor, singer, dancer, if that's the order, it means you should be trying out for straight plays and film and tv. You should do a musical every once in a while, but you should not be going out for musicals all the time. And if dance is the thing that you're spending the most time kind of boning up on and getting better at you don't want to try out for 40 seconds street, it's not going to go well for you. Right, right, right. So in this subject matter expert world, there's a triple threat of the scientist, the celebrity and the magician. So the scientist loves the subject matter. They will spend all of their time basically digging into every piece of the industry and ideas around the industry. They don't really want to be on the cutting edge, they want to be on the bleeding edge. They love spending time in the lab and sort of figuring sort of everything out. They love to pick apart and figure out how things work. The celebrity does not care about that at all. They love people, they love being the center of attention. They love spending their time connecting people, getting to know people. They love promoting their own stuff. They love just being out there. It's just natural for them, it's easy for them. It's just what they do. And then the magician doesn't care about either of those things. The magician is wired for novelty. They cannot do things the way that everybody else does them. They really have to think for themselves. How do I say this, how do I present this? How do I execute on this in a way that nobody else is executing on? Now here's the thing. Depending on the order of that triple threat, there is a gift, a strength that you have and then there is a gap within it. The perfect example is the scientists, because scientists, they really know their stuff. But most scientists usually have celebrity at the bottom right. They don't want to promote, they don't want, you know, etc. So the mistake that I see tons of subject matter experts make is that somebody told them that they had to be the celebrity and they don't. You could very easily find somebody who already has that celebrity personality and be interviewed by them, partner with them in some way and play to your strengths and let them play to theirs. You can be the Dr. Phil to somebody else's Oprah and you'll do much, much better in that particular scenario. Same thing. If you're a celebrity and you're not using your relationship building and promotional elements to do your lead gen and to have your conversations, you're not going to have as good of an experience. Whereas if you're a scientist, you're going to get most of your leads and opportunities from showing the science, from basically breaking something down and showing people this is exactly how it works. And if you're a magician, you're going to get all of your leads from how interesting and innovative you are. The more crazy, wild Ideas that you come up with, whether it be an event that you're throwing or something that you're developing or the way that you say something, the more that that's just going to attract that audience and sort of connect you to those types of opportunities. But if you're not playing to that strength, that's where a lot of this disconnect happens and that's where referability kind of starts to go out the window because you're not going to talk about somebody who's not just like knocking that out of the park at what they're good at. Right. Like you're just not going to.

Right, right. Yeah, that's. Yeah. I'm so glad you, you mentioned that, that triple threat, because I was so curious about what makes someone referable and the way you broke that down is, is so clear now. And, you know, and I, I'm, you know, in the coaching world, so I see different coaches and I can, you know, when I, when I think of, you know, a Dan Sullivan, he might be a magician and. Oh yeah, when I think of a Joe Polish, I think of a celebrity.

Yep.

And, you know, when I think of a Scott Todd in our world, I think of a scientist.

Yeah.

And. And so it's, it's so clear then, you know, they bring people into their world that then fill in those gaps so that they become referable.

Exactly, exactly. And when you start to think about that, the three main things that you need for referability are easy to remember because it spells the word aim. Right. And that is accessibility, influence and memory.

Accessibility. Influence. Memory.

Exactly. So you got to first start with accessibility. If people can't understand what it is that you have to share, they're not going to share it with anybody else because we don't like to look stupid when we're explaining something to other people. Right. So unless it's super accessible, unless it's like, okay, yeah, I get this, I sort of understand it and I know how I could talk about it to somebody else. You're probably not going to have people talk about it. Right, right. So that's the first hurdle that you got. The second is influence. And most of the time we think of influence in the context of persuasion. We think about how am I persuading somebody or convincing them to do something. But true influence is when you do something without me asking you to do. So the only way that's going to happen is if it makes you look better. So we have to think about how are we packaging something or sort of creating something so that it makes the people who are sharing it and talking about it look cool, look interesting, look fascinating. Right?

Right.

And then finally, memory. Because if I can't remember what you said, even if what you said was much, much better than somebody else, I'm going to share the thing that I remember because I don't want to look awkward. And the way that I like to think about this is if you want people to remember you more, you focus on less. And that's language, emotion, simplicity and structure. So first, with language, if you have your own words for things, you're basically carving out a piece in my brain. I'm going to remember because I used your words or I used the way that you talked, whatever your phrasing was. Second, if I'm experiencing any kind of emotion when I'm talking to you, that is triggering a part of my brain that basically records information. Because whenever we're at the height of emotion, our brains are wired to make sure that we get all the details, because that was originally built to protect us when we were in the wild, if we were scared, we needed to know this was the tree that the bear was near. Right. We needed to remember that. So when there's a heightened sense of emotional arousal, we tend to remember the details a lot better. So I could ask somebody, what are the opening scenes of Titanic? And they can't tell me any details. But if I say, what image pops into your head when I say I'll never let go? One of the most heightened sort of emotional parts of that movie that most people who have seen it can tell you exactly what's happening during that moment at that particular time. So when we tap into that emotion, we're basically wiring memory. So then there's simplicity, because our brains can only process so much information at one time. So if I tell you there's 32 points of referability, you're done by number two. Because you're like, I can't even possibly think about 32 points. Right?

Right.

But if I say there are three things to remember, accessibility, influence and memory, and it spells the word aim, you're far more likely to carry that information with you. Right. And be able to use that information. And that ties to the last piece, which is structure. Our brains need order in order to process information. So if I tell you accessibility, influence and memory spells the word aim, I am giving you a structure that you can follow, that you can think about, and that structure makes it easier for you to remember it, easier for you to share it. So now, going back to the Scientist, the celebrity and the magician. Right. The scientist is really great at accessibility. Right. They're really great at taking this complex thing and breaking it down and being like, this is how it works. This is the whole sort of process. The celebrity is really great at influence. Right. Because so many of their ideas and concepts make other people look good. Right, Right. And then finally the magician is really good at memory. They're always coming up with the language for those things. Right. They're always coming up with ways to tap into emotion. They're always coming up with simplicity and structure. So if we go back to the Dan Sullivan, Joe Polish and I think who was the third?

Oh, Scott Todd.

Yeah, yeah. And Scott Todd. They literally line up. Yeah. With those ideas and with those concepts. Why do you share their stuff? Because of those elements. Right. Why, why are their names, what they are referable right now? Because they are being mentioned on this podcast. Right, Right. They didn't ask you to mention them on this podcast.

Right.

So in each of these instances, what they've done has made such an impression on you that your memory calls them up, that they get referred to, they are referable because they've built in these elements to what they have and they've played to their strengths. They've played to their strengths. Joe is a celebrity because he loves all the relationship building component. And what does he do? He brings in the scientists, he brings in the magicians. Right. Dan is a classic magician because he's very, very good at coming up with these catchy one liners and phrases and processes and all of these different types. Types of things. And what does he do? He brings in those scientists and those celebrities. Right. And they talk about it and they share because we know Joe has brought Dan in and Dan has brought Joe in all the time.

Right?

Right. Yeah. And I'm not as familiar with Scott, so you'd have to give me a little bit more sort of context.

Yeah.

His world. Yeah, yeah.

He's in our, he's in our language community and he, he breaks down flight school, which is how we help people basically create the recipe of solving their money and time problems. Creating a passive income in raw, undeveloped land.

Yeah. And he plays to that strength. Right. He doesn't try to be the celebrity, he doesn't try to be the magician in it. He plays to that strength of really just making what you have accessible it.

Exactly.

Right. And making sure the people in the audience and the folks in the community are like, yep, I totally get it. I totally understand. So what do they do? They talk about him. You mention him, right? He's referable because it's tied to that.

Yeah, it's. This is so good, Michael. The, the nuggets of wisdom have been, have been dropped and dropped and dropped. I'm so grateful. But we're at that point now in the podcast where I'm going to ask you for another nugget. A website, a resource, a book, something else actionable for the art of passive income listeners. Go improve their businesses, improve their lives. But before you give that tip of the week.

Yeah.

A shout out to our sponsor, which is flight school. Learn of the next 16 weeks can literally transform your life. Start building that passive income out renters, rehabs, renovations or rodents. And I know what you're thinking, oh, without the tuition, it ain't gonna cost you nothing. Guaranteed you're gonna make back that money. 180 days or less. Just shows you did the work. Learn more. Go to the landgeek.com forward slash training. Thelangic.com forward slash training. Get on a call with one of our land experts and see if this is right for you. Michael Roderick. What?

All right. So. So I'm going to share with you what I consider probably the most amazing way to ask for something that basically, if you approach your asks from this lens from now on, you'll be amazed at the opportunities that it brings you. And it is the indirect ask. So we talked before about the direct ask, where I'm asking you to do something for me. In an indirect ask, I'm asking you to be a thought partner with me. So rather than saying, I want this or I'm looking for this, you say, you know, I'm having a problem. I'm really struggling with this particular thing. And you break down whatever that problem is. And then you say to the other person, do you have any ideas? One of the best phrases in the world, because you limit the things you get in life when you limit other people's creativity. So the second you say, do you have any ideas? You never know what the other person's going to come up with to help you solve that problem. They might make an intro for you. They might say that they want to support you in some way. They might share a resource or something that would really help you or sort of solve the issue. And I cannot tell you the amazing opportunities that have shown up in my life as a result of the indirect ask. As a result of saying, do you have any ideas? And just presenting whatever my problem was to whoever, to whoever I was talking about talking to.

I Love it. I love it. I always say to people when they're looking to raise money, if you ask people for money, they'll give you advice. And if you ask them for advice, they'll give you money.

That is 100 true. And that's the indirect ask in action. Like that is how. That is how it works.

Yeah. Do you have any ideas? Michael Roderick, that is a phenomenal tip of the week. But my tip of the week is a little better. Not to, not, not to compete because to go to my referability rater.com and none of you know how to spell this, so I'll have a link to my referabilityraider.com and it is a type form. You're going to answer each question and get a score for how referable your, your brand is. And it's going to start with accessibility. I have a feeling there's a, there's an I and an M to come.

You think?

Yeah. So, so please do that. If you're getting value from the podcast. The greatest favor I can ask or the greatest. Yeah, I'll do the indirect ask is, is basically, I'd like you. Well, it's a direct ask. How would I, how would I ask for people to follow rate, review the podcast so that selfishly, I can get better guests like you to come on the podcast so that they benefit? What would be the indirect ask of that?

I think what you, what you'd say is, I've been looking for ways to just get this podcast in front of so many, so many more people and would love to hear your ideas for that.

Okay, great. I'd love to hear your ideas for that. Email me atmarkthelang.com because there's. Yeah, for sure, but also people like Michael Rodrick are going to look at our reviews. If there are no reviews, he's not going to spend time on the podcast. So, so selfishly. Please, please follow rate review the podcast as well. And Michael, are we good?

Yeah, I think we're fantastic.

All right, well, thank you so much. This has been just pure joy. And I told you that, you know, you, you guys are going to get smarter and more affordable just by spending this time. So I want to thank you listener as well and let freedom ring. Thanks for listening to the Art of Passive Income podcast. Are you ready to learn how you can start building a passive income without renters, rehabs, renovations or rodents? Schedule a free consultation@thelandgeek.com forward slash training. Let freedom ring.