Recession-Proof Your Income: How Land Investors Make MORE During Economic Downturns

Sam. Foreign. You're watching the economic warning signs. Flash red. Inflation climbing, interest rates soaring. And experts predicting a major recession in 2025. While most investors are panicking and pulling their money out of the market, a small group of land investors are quietly preparing to potentially double their returns. There's a counterintuitive truth about economic downturns that traditional real estate gurus never talk about. When the economy tanks, certain land opportunities don't just survive, they actually thrive. This recession resistance strategy has nothing to do with timing the market, flipping houses, or becoming a landlord. It's about positioning yourself where others are running away. And in today's episode, we are revealing exactly how smart land investors capitalize during economic uncertainty and the specific approach that's allowed us and our students to create consistent cash flow even when traditional real estate markets freeze completely. So whether you're worried about protecting your current investments or looking to build wealth while others are fearful, this recession proof land strategy could be the financial safety net you've been searching for. Welcome to Nightcap. Joining me as always, handsome Rob, John Burnett. Mike, you drinking a poppy?

I just called you Mike. No, this is, this is Hoplark. It is sparkling water brewed with hops. And so it's when you want to feel kind of like you're drinking a beer, but it's just sparkling water.

No calories.

Zero calories, yeah.

Wow.

Okay.

Tasty.

It's good. I recommend it.

Very good.

We've got the Zen master. Breathe in the mailing. Breathe out the marketing. Mike Zato. Mike, how are you?

Well, I'll tell you, I feel pretty good. I'm on the top of the screen this week. I don't think I've ever been up on the top. I don't know.

You've always been on the top.

No, no, I. I feel like I've been down the bottom now. I feel like really just like in the superior position. And since I'm bringing a James and Ginger on the top position, I'm feeling great.

Cheers to you, James and Ginger. Last but not least, dude, buddy, the nightcap OG Scott. Bossman Scott, how are things in Alaska?

We got a beautiful spring day here. It's a nice way to end the day with you guys. Except, Mark, I want you to know how fortunate you are because I'm skipping the Star wars and or season two debut just to be with you guys. That's how much I love you. Okay. That's a sacrifice right there. I've been waiting years. Two years.

It's a huge sack. Honestly, I have Full body shows right now. The sacrifice, I feel it, it's shrill and I've been so excited to dive into it. And I've been watching the, the, the commercials for Andor and Disney plus. Big stars, big production, big story. And yet here you are talking about the secret land investing strategy people want to know about. So it's kind of recession proof. I mean, let's just start with, with John.

John.

The market's up, it's down, things are going crazy, everyone's nervous. Recession, depression. Do you care?

I mean, I think like, I mean when it comes to a recession, I think there's just more opportunities to buy, to get really good opportunities because people are interested in, in selling if people default and you know, because I sell a lot with owner financing, if there's notes default, I get the property back, I retain all those payments, I can resell it. So you know, ultimately I think it's a net gain. Like even if you have defaults that come in, right. And you take a short term hit in terms of your monthly recurring revenue, ultimately in the long term you end up making more because you take the properties back, you resell them and you retain all that money that was paid to you. Right. And so ultimately you stick it out, you do better in this business on the other side of the recession.

No, absolutely, absolutely. And it's the thing like we don't really talk that much about because it feels so sort of unseemly because we don't want people to default. But when they do, it's kind of one of the, the big benefits of the land business, you know. Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I had two defaults and, and we try to like, we generally try to work with people. Like our principle is like, if you'll communicate with us, we'll try to work with you. And then there's a certain point where we're not doing anybody any favors to kind of string this along and then if somebody ghosts us, then we'll take the property back. But I had two defaults this week and one had paid $10,000 on a property and one had paid $11,000 on a property. And they defau it and those properties went up in value since then. Right. And so when you think about that like that retained equity like that, that 10 and 11, it's like I made 21 grand this week plus the appreciation.

That's honestly 21 grand is like a breakfast. Roseno. I mean that's incredible.

Small breakfast.

Yeah, I mean it's just him. Lords gotta, you know, wait and, you know, for that, that gold encrusted egg. But, Mike, As we segue over to you.

Yeah.

You've been in this business a long time. You've seen the ups, you've seen the downs. Can you remember a time where there's been a land recession for you?

No, I. I think the biggest moment of fear, if we ever had it, was when covet hit. And I always do what you say, tread lightly. And I, I always tread lightly talking about this because so many people suffered during that time, but we actually sold more land. Right. It was, you know, we were all worried what's going to happen. You know, things were just crazy. Nobody knew what was up, what was down. And so if there was ever a time I felt like, wow, okay, well, this is going to be a test for land investing, that was it. And all of us here can attest to the fact that we've passed with flying colors. People wanted land more than ever, and we knew how to provide them a way that they could afford it. So that's the only thing I can remember, Mark. I mean, myself, I mean, and it just proved to be the opposite of what, you know, people were saying in terms of the fear and all that.

Yeah, I, I remember those times. And I remember thinking it was a weird time being an entrepreneur that was not affected at all by Covid in any way, shape or form in the sense that our business was already virtual. Our team was all virtual. We weren't taking people out physically to the property. So nothing in our lives changed. And the whole world's changing and we're still doing our normal thing, and yet now we're making more money and people are suffering. It was a weird. It was a weird time for sure.

Yeah.

You do what you can to give back and you feel very fortunate and you're grateful.

We didn't have tenants, Mark. We didn't have tenants. The people with tenants were in a bad spot because a lot of those tenants couldn't pay. And they were in a position. Many people, they couldn't evict them, they couldn't move them. We don't have tenants. Right. Man, people aren't living on this land. They're not building on it until they pay it off. So we didn't suffer those consequences.

Yeah, I mean, that's something we don't even talk about. Enough. Is the emotional, like, angst during a recession or during a, you know, a big economic hit. And if you're a landlord and you got to evict a family from where they live, and the emotional repercussions of that, not just for you. Like, you know, even if, you know, you're this cold hearted landlord and they're just a tenant and there's a contract, like no one's like that. Most people feel for their tenants when they're landlords. And just like what job was saying like, yeah, if you can't make your payment on a piece of land, we're not evicting you from anything. We'll even work with you so you can make your payments. But if you can't and you kind of ostrich it and you put your head in the sand, well, we, it's okay. Like nothing, no one was really uprooted from their life in a sense. Right. And so it's, it's one of the great recession proof things about land investing that we don't even really talk that much about. But dude, buddy, all the years you've been doing this, you're no longer an ankle biter in the business. So what was, you know, do you remember any, any kind of recession or economic hit in your lay business?

No huge economic hit in 10 years. I think that, you know, like Mike said, the, the most uncertain time was probably Covid and I think we were all biting our nails a little bit, figuring out, you know, thinking about, oh, what's going to happen here? Like in March of 2020, we're all wondering, oh man, you know, what's, what's going to happen with this whole thing? And then it, it became an opportunity for us to, to seize more property. It became an opportunity for us to, to sell more property because there was a lot of cash in the market at that time. So like during COVID our cash deals were up quite a bit, which was kind of interesting. And now there's some uncertainty again, right? I mean there was uncertainty last. In the last year there's been uncertainty with inflation.

Right?

That hasn't, but we benefit from that. That helps us. Hold us down.

Yeah.

Yeah, good.

The values of our property keep going up. Yeah, we have to pay more for the property, but we sell for more.

Right. And, and there's still, I think when we sell property for 1, 2, 300, but 300amonth, the, the buyer pool is just really big for those properties.

Right.

I think, you know, other, other types of real estate investments maybe struggle a little bit bigger deals, that type of thing in the last year. But, but this to me is kind of a, it's kind of another, I think it's another point in time where we need to seize the opportunity a little bit, especially on the acquisition side. So I think it's really, really important to mail right now because there are a lot of people out there who are fearful. We buy from a lot of elderly folks, folks that are in their 60s, 70s, 80s, even, and they're a little bit fearful. Right. So now's a really good time to. To mail. And I think it's important too, when, when you're having conversations with these people, you just need to be sensitive. Right? Just need to be. Need to have an open ear. Your intake manager needs to have an open ear to be able to, you know, maybe, maybe we need to be land counselor a little bit more like Mike Zano says, right. Land therapy right now. But, but we can. I mean, on the buy side, I, I think we can really help people solve some problems because a lot of these folks have had these properties for years and years and years, and they're not going to do anything with them. And no realtors helping them sell the property. And we, we show up as a solution to them. So I think there's some really great opportunity on the buy side. I think that it may help us buy at cheaper prices as well and, you know, without. Without gouging people, obviously. And then I think, you know, there may even be kind of a shift on the buyer side. I, I think that, you know, people. People may come to realize that, that, hey, you know what? Land is probably a really good thing to invest in because it's a hard asset. It's not going to disappear overnight. Values continue to climb. Maybe I need a place to, you know, maybe I, I want or need a place to kind of escape to if needed. Right. So I think, I think there's, you know, maybe, maybe some opportunity on. On that, on that side of the equation as well.

No, absolutely. And, you know, last 25 years, I lived through that great recession. And, you know, I know John's literally gonna have to, like, drink some caffeine now because he's heard the story so many times. So I apologize. But, you know, during that time and shameless plug for dirt Rich. I tell the story in the book, but, you know, the business was still profitable 2008, 2009, 2010, even when I lost 50% of my income from defaults on the note portfolio, people are calling me up and saying, you know, hey, it's between food and this land payment. I'm choosing food because they were unemployed. You know, I tried to work it out with them. I would credit them. I had as much goodwill Going out of it as I could, but the company, the business was still profitable. And to John's point, all those defaults just lowered my cost basis and I just had to figure out what's the new pricing on this portfolio and then start selling again. But I talk about dirt rich just, you know, it was a marked problem having what I call Parkinson's law of money, which means the more money I made, the more money I spent. Which of course, you know, when you like Mike Zano, you know, you just buy another safe, start stashing for cash in there, which, you know, he's probably got a few homes now, just one for him to live, one for his safes. And I don't even know what exactly, exactly, but, but that's how it is when you're a land investor and you've been doing it this long. So John, if you're listening to this and you're nervous about either your, your employment situation, your investment situation, the uncertainty of the economy, what's your advice to somebody right now?

I mean, I think that like, it's always, I mean, people always talk about how people make their money during times of recession, right? Like the, the really successful real estate investors make their money. And I think it's to, to jump into something like this on. Even if we're on the edge of a recession or if we go through recession, it actually puts you, I think, in a stronger position ultimately because you're going to be able, they're going to be more people looking to sell. You're going to be able to acquire at a stronger price and the profits have the potential to be much, much higher. So my general thought is like, if I could pick the perfect time for, for me to start, right, like it would be right when the recession hits, right? Like that's when, that's when you can really see the most profits ultimately.

Yeah, absolutely. And where's our 10 year real estate cycle? I mean, I guess 2020 was the, the cycle, but I felt like, you know, all that money that pumped into the economy, with all the bailout money, we didn't really have a real recession. And maybe now is that time that the economy actually needs it and we can kind of reset prices, should go back to where they probably should have been for a few years now. And there's, there's, there's great, you know, opportunities out there. All right, so the Zen master.

Yes sir.

What are your thoughts?

This kind of reminds me of when I talk to people who are getting, looking, looking to start their land business and they're like, mike, it's just so busy right now in my world. And I'm like, okay, you could wait for the optimal time when life slows down and you could start it then. But let's be realistic. Is there ever really going to be that optimal time? But if you start it now and missed all the chaos, when the optimal time comes, you're going to be already positioned to grow even further at that point. Right. So now we're in a recession that people might be. Are we?

Well, we.

Maybe people are thinking we're heading into a recession. They're worried about it. Rephrase that. And so they're like, maybe this isn't a good time to start. I think it's the perfect time to start because if you can build it now amidst all of this that's going on, all of this uncertainty in the economy, and you build it and you start getting traction, what happens when the economy goes the other way? You're going to crush it. Rather than waiting for the economy to get good, then starting, I say start now amidst all this chaos, start now. Build something. Build it solid. You know, have what you talk about all the time. And I think all of us have benefited from the abundance mentality. Right. Where we're, We're. I just expect to do well, Mark. And I know that may sound naive, but it works. Like, I expect that I'm going to do well, and I know that I'm going to help people who want to. They need money for their property, and we're going to give them money. There's people that want property, but they can't afford it, so we give them a payment. I just expect that to happen over and over again. And it happens.

Yeah. I mean, it's so true. I mean, what both of you are saying is there's just a tremendous opportunity and this is the time to make real wealth, and the time is now. And there should be that. That piece of urgency. But to my. I mean, to your point, and I mean, Scott, you mentioned as well, we just have a massive buyer pool because if you have a job, you can afford this land. A hundred dollars, two hundred. It's a car payment. And not even a hard payment.

Right.

Like you're talking about, like, it's not.

Even a car payment anymore. Copy.

Not even a car payment anymore. And I apologize, Massachusetts, by the way. Yeah, I mean, it's. What is it? I think if it's not a car payment, what is it?

It's like a cable bill, Mark.

It's a cable Bill?

Yeah, it's a cable bill. It's not electricity bill. That's way higher. I'd say it's probably reminiscent of a cable bill or maybe, I don't know, some sort of subscription you have or something. You know, it's, it's so. We make it so affordable.

Yeah. Yeah, dude. Buddy, what are your, what are your thoughts?

So I think any deal you can do right now is just. I get. I guess it's a head. It's a hedge against, like, any insecurity you might have, whether it's maybe you're feelful for your job or maybe you're fearful about your investments tanking or, you know, maybe. Maybe you need more cash to pay off some bills. Like, I think, like Mike said, delaying is sometimes, is, Is oftentimes the biggest mistake you can make. Because in this, if, if it, if we do go into a recession, there's going to be opportunity for us. Right. So if you can have this kind of mindset shift. And yes, this is risky, right? I mean, it's not, it's, it's less risky than a lot of other real estate models. But anytime you become an entrepreneur, it's a risk, right? So, yes, yes, you're, you're, you're changing your trajectory. Yes, you're trying something new. Yes, you're, you're, you're investing money in something you've never done before. But, like, come with us, you've been, you know, Mark's been doing this a long time. He's got the recipe dialed in. We're going to help you get deals done. And any two or $300 a month you can bring in is going to help you feel better right now. You could be the next Mike Zano. All he did his first year was wholesale. He bought for 500, sold for a thousand, bought for a thousand, sold for two. He just did that over and over and over again, and he made a lot of cash. So think about what that would do for you right now. For those people out there looking at this, considering this, what would an extra 500 or a thousand or $2,000 a month do for you? And just go get it. Like, we can teach you how to do it. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I do think it is the antidote to financial insecurity in your Life. Even extra $1,000 a month.

Yeah.

Can buy you peace of mind for the rest of your life. And speaking of, like, Mike Bennett bought five on wholesale this week when he sells those five properties and he makes $200 a month in passive income on those five, that's $1,000 a month for, let's just say 60 months. But the machine continues to go in perpetuity. So, yeah, okay, maybe the.

The.

The. They pay off their note, maybe they don't, and it continues even longer than 16 months, and he gets that default and he lowers his cost basis. He continues doing it. I mean, he's in the game. He's in the game. And Scott, to your point, like, into Mike's point, like, all our points, like, when in our lives, think about our own lives. When in our lives do we ever benefit from sitting in our. In our comfort zones ever?

Yeah.

It never works. You have to go outside your comfort zone to get to that next level. Like, life is like a video game, and that next level is hard and it feels scary, especially in times of uncertainty. But that's the time, as John was saying, like, that's where you make your real money. Because when you know that Warren Buffett, you know quotes like, when everybody's fearful, you get greedy. When everyone's greedy, you get fearful. So speaking of fear, I want to digress. I want to talk about the drink for a second. My neighbor, I offered him a poppy, and he's, you know, I. I offered to him, like, a good neighbor, and he's like, bro, are you not going to wash the tap? Like, what do you. What do you mean? He's like, I don't know how long that's been sitting out in the grocery store collecting dust. It was like the light bulb moment. So now I'm washing the tab before I put it into my drink. Oh, yeah. So you've been doing this.

Oh, these cans sit around in warehouses for months at a time. There's rats and warehouses. I'm always wiping the top of my camp.

Now you're gonna build your resistance. Build your resistance.

Mike and I have very strong immune systems because we never wipe the tops.

Okay, so you don't wipe the top either.

Wow.

Yeah.

I've been living around little kids for, like, nine years.

Got it home. Yeah. I mean, I feel like maybe I haven't gotten really, really sick because I don't drink a lot of canned anything, and I've just, you know. And now I'm playing poppy roulette.

Yeah.

All I could think of is the wizard of Oz poppies. Poppy.

So I appreciate you guys, you know, digressing into this, but I'm glad to know.

So is he mad that you didn't wipe it for him? Like, you handed it to him and.

Yeah, yeah. What a terrible host you are. You don't drink. Ew. You should have took it back and.

Went like this and rubbed it on your sleeve.

You're never gonna. Every time you open a can now, you. That will be on your mind.

It's on my mind.

Yeah.

And I got the rat droppings in my head now. It's been sitting in the warehouse. I'm drinking rat droppings.

What? Good, John.

Yeah, it's all right.

Yeah.

Living on the wild side. One kid at a time.

Yeah. Mike doesn't care because he's drinking alcohol. It's killing it. It's killing the rat poison.

You know?

So anyways, let's get back to how land investors make more during economic downturns. Get back on track here. So, Handsome Rob, John Burnett, When. When were you in your land investing business? The most uncertain, the most fearful. Do you. Do you remember then? Do you remember how you sort of broke through?

I don't know, like, economically, there's definitely 2020, right? Like, just trying to figure out.

What.

Was going to happen. I don't know. Like, for me, I. I was a pretty, like, fearful person going into land investing, oddly enough. And I, I've. I. Eric Peterson can attest to this because Eric was my coach. And I would. I would just like every so often, just reach out to Eric and be like, eric, is this. I just saw this thing. Is it anything? Should I be concerned? And Eric would reach back out to me. He's like, no, John, stop, Stop. And it's happened over and over and over again. And then just over time, like, I just realized that, like, everything was okay over and over and over and over again. And so I think it was kind of. It wasn't this, like, radical. Like, you're in the darkness and the lights turn on, and then you're like, bing. I realized it was more this gradual. Like someone takes that dimmer switch and slowly turns it on. And. And so now as I approach my land investing business, there's just a lot less worry, you know?

Yeah, no. 100% and Zen master, are you frozen?

Oh, he's just extremely Zen.

He's taking notes.

Wait, can you hear me?

You're on mute.

Sorry. I always take notes. I know you make fun of me, but, you know, I have. I, like, I learned too, you know, I'm continually growing here.

I think every time.

Every time I talk, Mike takes.

Yeah, right. He's always taking notes. When John talks, God's like, looking around with Scott talks.

I've got a tally board here, and I Just put. I put a mark for who's who Mike's taking the most notes on.

So I, I start talking, it's like, it's like time to play wordle. You, you know, you do you.

Was there a question you asked me? I'm sorry.

Okay, Mike.

Yeah.

Let's do some land therapy. Do you remember a time when you were. You were like the most fearful because the economy might have been uncertain or, you know, starting out in your land business?

Yeah, well, it wasn't the economy. It's just that I was 45 grand in debt and I started working with you and I. And, you know, I remember this thing I always tell people. You'd always tell me, you know, I already talked about the abundance mentality. But then you'd be like, new problem, good problem. You know, Mark used to say that. And I'd be like, oh, I got these five or ten products in agreement. How am I going to buy them? Don't worry. That's a new problem. Problem. It's a good problem. There's ways to do it, and I found ways to do it. Maybe I have five or ten properties in inventory. How am I going to sell them? Well, they're not selling yet. Don't worry. It's a good problem. You have property and inventory. So to me, that was the hardest thing to overcome in the beginning, that these, you know, with each new step that I, I was progressing through, I got some concern, some worry. But I was able to lean into you, somebody who's already done it, and you say, yeah, not a big deal, Mike. New problem, but good problem. And that mantra has never left me. I think that it helps me so many times, even today, and I try to encourage people with that same statement. So it wasn't the economy. It was my personal economic condition, a situation, I should say, with all the debt I had. And then on top of that, I'm going to go invest in myself and more training and. And. But I'm already in debt. Like, this is crazy. But that was the way out. It's almost like when you're caught, you know, I've never and I never will go on a kayak and fall into the rapids. And you have that spinning. But, you know, they tell you, just let go, go down in the hole and you'll pop up. It's like when their right mind's gonna stop swimming and just go in the hole. Right? But you let go and success comes.

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. But I think the essence of it is Is that having that mentor in your corner who's been there and done that.

Yes.

Is so, so valuable. It's such a great way to smart cut every aspect of life. And now, I mean, I'm in mastermind groups. I have mentors, I have what I call sniper mentors. So for every sort of aspect of my life, like I'll get a mentor who's just specifically focused on, you know, tax mitigation or thank you, Scott, or you know, I have a mentor for public speaking because I do a lot of speaking. How do I, you know, be a better speaker or storyteller?

Right.

And in land business, like that's what we do is we've been doing this for so long, we've seen every scenario. We're just zen like Mike about it because like, oh, it's a new problem. It's a good problem. You've got this and we breathe confidence into you so that you know, oh, well, if, you know, if Mark can do it, clearly I can do this and mostly and probably better. And the only reason I'm more successful is I've just been doing it longer.

Right, right.

And everyone has to start somewhere.

Well, people get so caught up sometimes in their own situation, it's hard for them to see the bigger picture. Right. And that's where somebody else can come in and really help them. Right. To say, hey, look, well, we were talking a few weeks back about you want cash. Well, who would think that by selling a terms, creating a term sale, you create cash quicker because you could sell the note. Like if you didn't know that, you just, you're missing a whole big piece of the business. So. But you're so fixated on getting a cash sale or on this or that. So somebody who's been there can see the bigger picture and, and you won't be so blinded by just your own thought process.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, dude, buddy, Mark Pixley's got a great question.

He does. He's got a, he's got a follow up question too. That's really good.

Oh, fantastic. So do you want to, do you want to answer that?

Well, so this is one of the things I can't speak to because since 2015, land values have just continued to climb. Right. Very slowly, but they've continued time. What if land prices go down? Well, we're still gonna make the same margins, right. So we're going to keep an eye on the market. I think doing, you know, an analysis of pricing right now is really important as well. Whenever you remail an Area. That's why we reprice, right. We, we always go in and do a pricing matrix. We want to see what's happening in the market before we remail an area. But we're still targeting, you know, we're still going to get these at 25, 35 cents on the dollar based on our research, and we're still going to make the same margins we did before. And I think with these, you know, we buy a lot of our properties for $5,000 and less, right? So a downturn in the market on those lower value properties, it's not as impactful as it might be, or it's not as, like, it's not as. What's the word I'm looking for? It's just not as a big deal with these lower value properties as it is for higher value properties. So. And the other thing I always, you know, try to remind people of is we're making money on the buy, right? So we have to remember that, right? Like, even if land values decrease 10%, then our offer is going to go down for 10%, but we're still buying that offer at a deep discount. We're still buying that land, that, that property at a deep discount, adding to our enterprise value.

So, yeah, yeah, you just Jeff Koshi'd me.

So.

Jeff Koshy was the smartest kid in my elementary school. He was actually second in my class in my high school, I think went on to Harvard. And I remember distinctly in second grade, the, the teacher asked me a question and I had the answer. I have my hand up and Jeff just came in and gave the most definitive answer. I was like, whoa. And that's kind of how I felt just now. I'm like, well, it's gonna bring up for making our money. It was just such a good answer.

A long ways, man.

You remember that had to have stung because all these years later, you still know his name.

Yeah, well, that's the private trauma right there.

Well, it's not. It's, you know, it is real trauma when those rare, rare times as a kid when you know you've got it and you couldn't do it because, you know, there was just someone better in the room. It's okay. Cheers to Jeff Koshy.

Cheers, Jeff.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah. But ultimately, cheers to dude, buddy. That's such a good answer. So let's go.

Mike wasn't taking notes though.

He wasn't taking no notes.

He's waiting for me. He's waiting for me.

Rewind and watch the tape. I took notes.

What was Your note believe you. We don't believe you.

We make money on the buy.

You don't need to write that down, you know.

Yeah, but it's lying. Solidifies it.

Yeah. Okay, but did he say 300 margin of safety?

No, I didn't.

That's what we have, mark. It's a 300 margin of safety. So prices can go way, way down, and we still locked in a very healthy profit.

Even if they tank, we might just double our money.

Yeah, yeah. I remember. Gosh, he was an oral surgeon. He was our coaching client. And he went on the mastermind call, and he was filled with shame because he only made Bob Devick. Dr. Devik. Yes. Filled with shame. He only made 175% on a deal. And he was, like, so upset about it. Like, in the real world, Bob, that's an incredible return. But he felt like he left a lot of money on the table because everybody else is like, oh, Yeah, I made 300.

405. Yeah.

Okay. John Burnett. Why should Mark Pixley go further in debt when a recession is coming?

And I think that this is. I think he's posing. This is like, if you're selling property and your buyer is asking you, why should I go further in debt when a recession is coming? So why should I buy land if there's a recession? I think that, you know, obviously there's some of this in the air. Like, I'm still selling land. I don't know exactly what my salesperson is telling people and how those conversations are going. But part of it is that I. And I think we touched on this a couple weeks back when people are like, I don't know, there are, like, in Covid. Right. Sold a lot of property. And a lot of that came down to people wanting some kind of a safety net. Right? Like, land is relatively stable in value. Like, if you're going to park your money somewhere, like, park it in something tangible, right? So people can invest in land for the same reason they invest in gold, Right. It's a finite asset. Generally doesn't radically increase in value. Generally doesn't radically decrease in value. It's. It's relatively stable, and at the end of the day, it's something that you own. So in times of. In times of crisis, I think people like it as a safety net. Like, well, at least I got that land, you know, And. And so in my mind, I think it. It provides something where at a relatively low monthly price point, they can have some level of security.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if things really go off the Rails. Well, you can't eat your gold, but you can plant crops on your land, right? And everybody's talking about, you know, how gold prices are soaring right now. Well, land is way better. It's way better. And I don't have to worry about anybody coming in and stealing my gold bars, you know, I mean, Zaino doesn't have to worry about it anyways because he's got a safe house. But normal people, right, have to worry about it. Mike. Well, you know, you know, you have a little bit more experience with debt, right? And I think there's two types of debt. There's good debt, there's bad debt, right? Good debt is income producing debt. Good debt is education debt, investment debt. Bad debt is essentially there's no return on it. Or it's even worse. If you buy a car, it depreciates.

So yeah, bad debt is back in the. Mark, back in the day when right before the big crash, I was at the fire department. Bad debts when everybody was selling variable rate interest, mortgage rate mortgages and everybody was just refinanced and going on trips to Florida. That's bad debt.

That's bad debt. That's.

Not buying a piece of land. I just saw Mark or somebody else put a question. I thought there was the same mark, a different mark, but I was going to say the same thing as you, Mark. I don't think taking it from a different perspective than John, you know, John took the buyer's perspective or the person was selling to. When Mark says, why should I go further in debt when recession's coming? I don't think I'm going in debt by buying property land because it is an income producing asset and buying at a steep discount. So I think I'm positioning myself in a way that I can survive a recession, you know, so I don't see it as going further in debt. That's not how I view it.

Yeah, dude, buddy, you want to land the plane on the debt question?

I mean, I think of it this way too. I never used to think like this. And I don't know, this is one of the cool things about doing this for so long and being around people that are smarter than you. But like, If I have $2,000 and I let it sit in the bank right now, what's that doing? It's maybe giving me. I mean, you're making.

Well with inflation. No, you're losing money.

Well, I was gonna say, like, what if rates come down? You're like, you're down to point. Maybe you're 4% a year ago, you're down to 0.4% now. Whatever, you could be losing money. But you know, for a lot of people, keeping that money in the bank account gives them a lot of peace of mind. Right? But if you take the $2,000 and you buy an asset at 25 cents on the dollar, right, you, you buy it, buy a property for $2,000, but it actually, the value of that land is 8 to $10,000. That's, I mean you're, you're putting your money to work them, right? It's not just sitting stagnant in the back and then it's also, but it's also staying secure in your investment. Right?

So, right.

So that's what I'd say about, I guess, debt like again, it all comes back to we buy these properties at a deep discount. We make our money on the buy. So your $2,000 right now, Mark, is probably safer invested in a piece of land or it's gonna, you're gonna be able to put it to more work, invest in a piece of land than you are just leaving it in the bank.

Well, I mean, I think for us and I think for our land investing community, we want as little cash in the bank, as human as possible. Because I mean we're in a business of buying and selling raw land. So I don't look at it like, I mean, I know we're investing, right? We're in the business of investing. So when you think about cash flow quadrant, Robert Kiyosaki, you got the employee, you get the sole entrepreneur, you've got the business, you know, and a big business and you've got the investor and you, the ultimate quadrant is when you're the investor. Well, we're skipping right to the bi quadrant when we're doing this. And we have a machine essentially of, of investments where it's not dependent on our own labor, right? Like, you know, John doesn't wake up with his 23 kids and be like, sorry kids, go get yourselves breakfast. I can't, I can't deal right now because I gotta go, you know, get a list, scrub a list, price a list, mail out of offers, I gotta go do some due diligence and I make some calls and then I gotta market some property, gotta sell some property. No, he's built a machine but virtual assistants who are doing the actual business for him and he's just using his, his CEO judgment and making money in the passive income just continues to grow. And I think that is ultimately the recession proof way of doing things. And you don't want to have cash when you can buy assets 25, 30 cents a dollar. That being said, right, if, you know, if you're one of, you know, Mike Zano's Goldman Sachs financial planners, when you get to a Mike Zana level, absolutely. You want to have uncorrelated assets. You do. But if you're not at that level yet, you want to build your wealth in the B and I quadrant. You don't want to be in the E and S quadrant. And I don't know anyone. I literally don't know one person who has made any real wealth in just investments. I don't. I know billionaires. I know multi millionaires. They've all done it through their business and a sale of their business, and then they invest. And it's really more defensive. But. And that's why, you know, the. The wealthy barber is such a great story of. Of that person who, you know, just kept putting their money away. Putting their money away in doing that. But what's not told in that story, there's no quality of life for the barber. Like, we're sure we're shortcutting it now. And because once your passive income exceeds your fixed expenses and you're generating 10,000, 20,000, $3,000 a month in passive income in continuity, without you having to do the actual work, that's real.

We. That's a mic drop right there.

They like the scissor. That was so. It has the power. Yeah.

Mike was taking notes.

Mike, were you taking notes? Was there any gem there?

I was too captivated to take any notes. I was wrapped.

Yeah. So now taking notes is. It's actually. It's not as good as.

Well, Mark has told you he has a storytelling coach. It's working well. It captivated me. It pulled me in. I didn't know what to do.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah.

I think it's one point, Scott. One point, John, and zero points, Mark. That's what I heard.

It's okay. It's okay. My fragile ego will. Will recover for sure. And I will be. I will be talking to my speaking coach next week about this. You know, so, John, I said a lot. Was there anything in there that resonated with you? So Mike can get back to his note taking?

I mean, I mean, you kind of covered it. You had your mic drop moment. So I don't know. I don't know if I really have anything. Anything to add in there.

Yeah. Mike, was there. Was there anything for you?

I thought it was very valuable, you know, like, I Said you, you are incredible storyteller. This, you know, this. Whoever you, whoever you're paying for that coaching, it's working.

Okay.

Give them a tip. Yeah. All right.

Absolutely.

It could be a woman. I don't know who's coaching you.

And by the way, you know not to go too off the rails here and off track. Am I the only one who's over culting the. The tipping culture in this country? Every time I go somewhere now, I have to tip.

I over tip everybody, I think.

Yeah, I. I like to. I like to tip. Like normal tipping, which would be. When I go to a restaurant, I know they're not making minimum wage. Like, they're living on their tips. I love over tipping there. But when I go and get, oh, I don't know, you know, whatever, like fast food, I mean, I know that they're literally just handing me a bag and working the rest.

You're tipping them?

Yeah. I can't deal with the shame.

Yeah, there's a little shame associated with it.

I deal with the shame of a 22 year old looking at me like, really?

Yeah. They watch you leave and they see what car you drive. And I mean.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you ever go. Do you ever go tip the cook, like the guy cooking the food, the chef, you ever go be. You ever go, like, rather than the waitress, like, do you ever. Have you ever done that tip rather than the waitress?

You're like, not you.

Oh, someone else. Both.

We were.

We were out one time marking our family or Italian restaurant. We maybe had too many bottles of wine, I don't know. And. And I said, what's the cook's name? Maybe it was Vinnie. I don't know. So the end of the meal, I walk in, I kick the door open to the place. Where's Vinnie? Dude, that was the best meal ever. I had him 20 bucks.

Okay, I. That I think is different. Then you're at the grocery store. Do you want to tip? You know, the checkout person?

No, I don't tip.

That's not an option. There's no tipping at the grocery store.

There's no shipping in the grocery store yet?

No, not here.

I think everybody's taking advantage of Mark.

Wait a minute. Although in Arizona, yeah, you can drink in the grocery stores. There's bars in there, though.

For sure there is.

You can't do that in the Northeast. So you can tip that. I get it.

Yeah. Yeah.

In.

In Arizona, you can drink and you can have. You can carry your gun into the grocery store. No one says, boo.

It is still the wild west shopping. And when I went to that one grocery store in Arizona, I walked in, they're all hanging around the bar, a bunch of them sipping their drinks, picking up eggs for their wife.

Yeah, everybody shops at the bar, you know. Absolutely. All right, I'm glad we're getting back to the. The subject. We're to the point where, like, why don't we ask for tips? I just. Just sold you a piece of land. Do you want to take 20? But you know, the way we do is we build it into the. The note setup fee and the no collection fee and get tip ourselves.

It's just a mandatory tip.

Yeah. Okay, here's another mark with a C. Another Mark P. Actually, I don't know.

Mark P with a C. Mark P with. With a K. I'm gonna.

I'm gonna attempt to pronounce the last name, so forgive me, Mark, if I pronounce this wrong.

Are these all you though, Mark? Are you just.

Mp? Mpmp?

Yeah, exactly. Okay, Mark.

I see what you're doing, Mike. Mark.

Or is it putra? Poutra? Putra like poutine pouchra like poutre. It could go putre.

I like putre. That was good, Mark.

Putre. The land business is different from what I am used to due to its lower overhead. Oh, what are some of your favorite tax strategies within the land business, Mark? That's such a good question. I almost feel like it should be its own nightcap episode.

Yes.

Oh, Scott.

Got it.

My advice is just to have six kids and then write them off. It's great.

Six kids is a strategy.

They each work in the business.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, John and Val never discovered late night tv. We're going for these six kids. It's good tax write off. Zen master. Yeah, let's just.

Let's just.

Let's just quickly go around. Well, we can do a whole thing on tax strategies, but I think it's pretty simple, Mark.

There's one straight that comes to my mind. We always talk about term sales versus cash sales. Let's look at the biggest benefit tax wise. If you sell, buy something, flip it for cash, you realize that profit all in one year, and you have to pay all the taxes. But we only pay on the taxes on what we take in profit wise, each year on the owner financing. So we're not. We're not paying that massive gain each year in our taxes. We're spreading it out over the length of the loan.

That's right. The installment sale. Now for you CPAs, they're not familiar with the land business. In the tax code there is an exemption for a land dealer where they do not have to take the entire amount of tax on an installment sale. I can't actually remember the exact tax code. I could chat GPT but I don't want to break the flow of this. Dude, buddy, your favorite tax strategy in the land business? I actually have one if you're, let's.

Just see if you.

Jeff Koshi me.

I don't think I can Jeff coach you on this one. I, I think what I'd say though is this like I don't know if there are as many like tax savings with land as there are other traditional real estate models. I mean we don't have depreciation, right? Yeah. Because land lasts forever. Yeah, land lasts forever. But there's just trade offs, right? Like yes, you get depreciation with rentals but you also have the headaches that come with rentals and you have the, the challenge of trying to cash flow monthly. Right. But really are you cash on any money when, when you make a couple hundred bucks per property and that's got to go into emergency, into an emergency fund for your furnace that's going to break down next month. Right. So. And yes, you can write off all that stuff. So, so I, I would just say that there may not be as many like traditional tax benefits with land as there are other real estate models. But there's just, there's just trade offs. There's no headaches with this. There's no emergencies. We can buy quick, we can sell quick. You know, money loves speed. There are no capital gains taxes on land if you don't make, if you don't make any improvements on the land. So that's a, that's a perk. But, but yeah. Mark. Jeff, Jeff Kochi me.

Well, Jeff Koshi because I would say that Mark Putray, Mark Putre that if you have a self directed vehicle like a Roth or an ira, you can supercharge that vehicle because our returns are insane.

Right.

So imagine making on average 300% a year in a tax free Roth or a tax deferred sep vehicle. Now another way to do it which is a little bit more, I don't know, let's say complicated would be an infinite banking policy which would be using a, a whole life insurance vehicle and using that money. I don't want to get into it. I want to have like Russ and Joey on from wealth about Wall street to talk about that model. But that's another way of getting some tax benefits as well as, you know, asset protection as well.

All right, awesome.

Well, I think this is a great show, but go ahead, Scott.

Let's. Let's throw this last comment up for my fellow Wisconsinite, Jason Hoffman. He's been around a while, Jason. He. He was out west and he moved over here to Wisconsin and he kind of brings it home with his little statement there. So should I just read it?

Yeah.

So he's excited to see the crew, which is good. Yes. Recessions and tumultuous economic periods are great for land. It's always a wake up call for people. It often catches them by surprise in some way where they realize that certain things impact us that are out of our control. So they're hungry for opportunity. They're looking for ways to take control of their lives again that's affordable and realistic and helps them reach their true goals for themselves and their family. They realize land is. And then. I don't know what.

It just is.

It just is. Land is.

So, so I thought that was great. Yeah, I think, I think we're gonna be able to help people if there is a recession. We're gonna be able to help people. We're gonna be able to see some opportunities for ourselves as well. For those that are looking at, at learning how to do this, I think now is a really great time. It's. Now is a really great time to take advantage of. Of some, some really. I mean, like, we're buying a lot of landmark, right? Like so much land. Like, I think John and Mike would agree. Like, there's so much land coming across the desk, it's hard to buy it all.

No, buying them all cheap, it's insane. It's insane. Yeah, we're buying it cheap. Tremendous yields, tremendous returns. So Zen Master, if you're listening to this and you want to learn more, you're like, well, I want to maybe be a land investor because obviously these four great looking guys are so cool. I want to be like them.

Yeah.

What would be a next step?

Well, they should look to get on a call with one of the three of us here. And I think what's important about that is we uncover two important. We answer two important questions along with them. One, is land investing, the way that we approach it, a good fit for them and the goals they have. So we really dig into that, Right. We want to make sure that what we do fits them well. And then we look at is Lane geek. A good fit is the way that we would help you set your business up. And if we can answer those Two questions. We can certainly help somebody. So I'd say take the time, take the initiative and get on a call with us. But Scott, you're the link master. How do they do that?

I'm just gonna say just shoot us an email. I'm putting it here in the chat. John at the Land Geek. Mike at the Landeek. Scott the lanky free very simple John with no H. John H. Send Mark an email. Mark needs more emails. Mark@thelandgeek.com.

You know what, you know what? Send me an email and just say, look, I listen to Nightcap and I know that this is annoying you that I'm sending you an email, but how do I learn more? And I will respond probably by forwarding it to Mike, but that's it. No, I will, I will actually personally respond.

I think we should real quick before we go. Sacred Soil Land ass is easy to buy, but it's hard to dispose of, isn't it? I think we've talked about that tonight. So really we, we create the terms, we make them irresistible. We are the bank. So disposition is not difficult when we own them. Right? Just want to answer that.

Yeah.

Secret soil land. You know, I've never been stuck with a piece of wrong land I couldn't sell. They all sell. It's just a matter of time. And you know, some people, it takes them longer because either they don't resonate with the land in that area or they don't resonate with the market or the pricing in a way that's good for them but not good for the market. And I was in the market. So, you know, we, we really do a deep dive on, on how to quickly sell land within within land. And coaching live is this week like it's, we're doing a big deep dive into marketing. My first module is marketing. Jesse Otterblad is doing a module on marketing. Scott Todd is doing a module on marketing. There's going to be a lot of marketing involved. Tate Litchfield's doing ad reviews, a lot of marketing. And these are with our one on one clients who have invested in an 18 month training program. So it's something that, you know, we're always learning, we're always getting better at because we want to sell faster. But at the end of the day they also. So hopefully that answers the question.

Yeah. And no worries for joining late Sacred Soil Land company. We're just happy, happy you're here.

Cheers.

We live in the rerun.

Let's go watch the rerun.

All right, guys. Next week, I think we're featuring a successful Land Geek, so we're gonna. I don't know who we're gonna have on yet, but we're gonna have somebody.

That is exciting.

Land Geek Spotlight.

And I will be bringing my Remarkable to take notes.

Right?

Everything's.

Mark, Mark, Mark. Remarkable. Talk about marketing.

Yeah. All the Mac. Mac.

Mark.

I saw.

I saw a joke, and I'm gonna.

I'm gonna.

I'm gonna butcher it. But hold on, hold on. You guys talk about yourselves, because I took a picture of it. Hold on. It was. It was an interesting meme that I saw.

I feel like it's just gonna be like with Marty the Blowfish tells a joke on Finding Nemo. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, here it is. For most people, when you lose your khakis, you've lost your pants. When you're from Boston and you lose your khakis, you can't start your car.

That is awesome. Khakis. Khakis. I love that. That's awesome. All right.

What a better. What a great way to end. And actually, here's the cockies. I don't know how many million people in the Northeast.

2.

Yeah. Thanks, everybody.

Thank you.

I can't believe it's been an hour.

Episode. I know. I really enjoyed it. I don't know about you guys.

Love it.

Yeah, it's great.

I love being in the top position, too. I hope I get this position next week.

You know, first of all, I think.

It'S because I came early. That's what it was. I was the second one. Now I know the secret. I'm logging on the front seat.

I'm in the back.

I don't know.

Like, go back to the reruns. You're always in the top position.

Really?

Yeah.

I don't know, Scott. Am I wrong?

I, I, I don't. I don't recall. I don't recall. All I know is you and. You and Mike are on the same side last time, and there's just a lot of. A lot of too much brotherly.

Give me a high five, Scott. Come on.

Oh, wait a second.

John.

And I don't get the high five?

Oh, you gotta go side to side.

Yeah, yeah, that's this way, Mike.

It's mirrored.

Yeah.

Oh, it's just different.

I got it. All right, there's Scott, Mike, Mark, this way. Yeah.

All right, thanks, everybody.

All right, it's time for Andor. I'm going to go watch.

Time for Andor. You got to watch season one. All right. Night, everybody.

Good night.