Why Flipping Land Is Better Than Flipping Houses

Hey, it's Mark Podolski at the Land Geek with your favorite niche real estate website, thelandgeek.com and these are the types of podcasts that I know you dear listener love, because we're going to talk to one of our star students, a flight school graduate, almost coaching graduate, and we're going to peel back the onion and hear how she was able to find success in the lamb business. Her, her tips and tricks and techniques and the secrets, they're all going to be revealed by my guest today, Dana Mace. Dana, welcome.

Thanks. Thanks for having me, Mark.

I am so, so excited for this podcast because, Dana, your story, honestly, even just thinking about it, it gives me chills. Would you mind just talking a little bit about how you came into land investing and just a little bit about your personal life and as well?

Sure, yeah. As if the, the business life wasn't enough with it failing. It wasn't really failing, but I was in the flipping world. And then Covid happened.

And you, you were in house flipping.

I was in the house flipping world. Yep. And then Covid happened. I got stuck with 25 flips at one time. Sky prices tripled. They went up to material costs, labor, everything tripled. And so all of a sudden I needed, you know, $3 million to finish these deals that I had only accounted for, like $1 million. And it was, it was, it was kind of rough. And I was down, just out, out on, on a limb. I was, I was out. I guess I don't know how to say this, but I went down to North Carolina last flip, and it was a flip that I had already finished once, and a tree fell down on top of it, right down the center. After I had finished it, I was about to, to put it on the market and yeah, a tree fell on it. My uncle called me, he lived next door and he said, you're not, you don't want to hear what I have to tell you, but a tree fell on this thing. It's about $80,000 worth of damage. And insurance gave me 20 grand to finish to fix it. Oh, my gosh. So I started driving down there. It was about a four hour drive. And I, I thought, you know, I've been carrying this book around with me in the back of my car for, you know, a year. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna just pull it up, see if it's on audible. And it was, it was your book Dirt Rich. And I listened to that thing all the way down in North Carolina this one day. And I just had all this hope and couldn't wait. And then on the personal side of, besides what was going on in the business, over the last year and a half, I have had custody of my sister's six kids. I have three of my own. And so we ended up with nine kids ranging from the ages of four. There's a four year old, two six year olds, a nine year old, an 11 year old, and a 12 year old. And then of course, I have mine, which were at the time 11 and 213 year olds. So all of a sudden we have all these kids. And I had just signed up for your coaching program because after I read your book, I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. I've been in real estate for 20 years and I love your model, Mark. The way that you've written it out in your book. Just. I loved every single thing about it. In fact, when I got down to North Carolina, after I read it, I called Jesse, my husband, and I said, you got to read this book. And within two days I was up there. I got home, and he had read it like four times.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah. He was like, we're doing this. And I said, yeah. So, you know, I signed up for the coaching program knowing that I had all these kids that I had to take care of. My mom was, was also. We had joint custody. So she kind of took over as the year went on. But during that whole summer, I had all of them. And it was crazy. I was like, how am I gonna do this, you guys? I think I signed up in August and y', all, I told you about the situation, and you let me, you let me start in October, which was amazing. But then I didn't have the funds from that. I really needed to get the business started at the level that I wanted until about January of this year. And so since January of this year, I've gone through the coaching program. I'm almost done with it. And I ended up just finding some really cool deals. And I'm loving it. I mean, it's just. It's just cool. It's so much less stressful than flipping houses.

Do you have a. A favorite deal? And I mean, and the reason I ask about that story is I wanted to paint the picture of the excuse that people will say to, to me and to our team is, yeah, I really like the idea of, of really going deep into the land investing business, but I don't have the time. And the fact that that excuse just goes away. Because if, if you can do it with nine kids under, you know, from 4 to 13.

Oh yeah.

And you can carve out the time. And I even see, I, even in, in my own life now when I think of, oh, I don't have time for this. It's just a lie. It's just, oh, this is that important to me. I just have to be honest with myself. It's not what I want. Because if you can make time for it with nine kids, I'm an empty nester. I have absolutely no excuses.

So I have to be honest. Like, I wish I could. I, I started with some other people in the coaching program and they're like crushing it. And I mean, with what I had on my plate, I guess in what I have on my plate, I guess I'm, I'm crushing it in a way. I don't know. But like, I wish I was doing, I guess that's a thing. Like everybody always just wishes they were doing so much better, you know.

Oh, every, everyone feels that way. No one ever wakes up, thinks, oh, I'm good, right? I'm awesome. And even when you really are good, we, that half life of satisfaction of where you are is so short. And then we move the goalposts because we, we want, we're, we're built for growth and we want to strive. And I think it's, it's in the striving that we find meaning, we find purpose, and, but it's also challenging. And so you go through these emotional hurdles. You think, why am I doing this? It's so hard. And then you, you know, then you, you know, you close a deal like, yes, I love this business. And, but then you, but you start building that, that machine so that essentially you don't build yourself a job and you've got this passive income machine. And so then you can get to that point where, okay, my fixed expenses are covered. Now I'm growing because I really want to grow. And I, you know, I think that once you solve your money problems and your time problems, life becomes so much more interesting, which is why that we, we do this business. So I'm talking a lot. I want to talk more about you. Do you have a favorite deal?

So my favorite deal came from. It was, it's a really small lot. It was 0.12 acres. It was in Putnam County, Florida. And I sent out a bunch of mailers there. That was the first county that I had picked and it came off of my first mailing campaign. And the guy that called off of it was freaking hilarious. I mean, he called and he was just like. He had this strong Southern accent, and he was just saying everything that was not politically correct that you could ever think of. And I'm like, what. What do you like? He. He goes, well, I'm just calling because I want. I want to make sure that this offer is right. And I said, yeah, it's right. I offered twelve hundred dollars for it. And. And. And I was totally gearing up for him to. To just start reaming me, like, how dare you offer that low. Whatever. Well, it wasn't that at all. He was like, well, I'm just calling because I want to counter it. And I said, okay, what would you like to counter at? And he's like, 1600. And I said, okay, that. What. What makes the difference to you? Like, what. Why do you think it's worth $400 more? And just curious, you know, like, I was willing to pay 1600 for it, but I just wanted to know. And he said. He said, well, it's got a dock. And I'm like, it's got a dock. What is. Okay, Is it on the water? Because, you know, when you send out these mailers, you don't really.

Right.

And when you're getting a call back from one, you haven't really had time to. To look at it and do your due diligence. And so I said it on the water. He said, oh, yeah, it's on a little. Little lake. I'm like, a little lake? Yeah, I got my john boat out there too. It's hooked to it. And he said, you can have that, too. It works. I said, what? Okay, so this was like. This was my first deal out of, like, you know, actually, I got it before flight school, before I went into. No, I got it in flight school. I got it before I went into coaching. Yeah. And. And so I just said to him, I'm like, okay, well, I'll give you, you know, 1600 for it. Okay, well, it's in my daughter's names because I bought it for my two daughters, and then they got married and they moved to Georgia and they don't want it anymore. I said, okay, well, that's fine. We can. We can figure all that out. So we worked through it all. We got. I bought it and put it out on Facebook Marketplace, and guess what? I couldn't. I just. I could not believe it. I was on cloud nine. I found a buyer for $237 a month for 72 months.

Wow.

I mean, like, I just. In it. That was the first time that after I did the book. I was just like, after I read the book and I started, you know, really getting into it, that I was like, man, there are some major returns in this business, and it is going to be a heck of a ride. I'm so excited.

I love it. I love it. So that's your favorite deal. What would you say has been your biggest challenge and how did you overcome it?

So my biggest challenge in this business has been working on hiring people and keeping them, making sure that, I guess I'm not a very good babysitter. So I give somebody a job, and I expect them to figure it out, and they need to be trained.

Right, Right. There's that little thing.

Yeah, yeah. So that's. That's been my biggest challenge is, you know, finding the right people, getting them in the right places. But I think that's something that comes with time with any business. You know, the scaling. It's the scaling part of it. And it's. It's not always easy.

No, for sure. I had a friend tell me business is easy for the people.

I love that. So much truth in that, right?

It's. There's a lot of truth. So tell me the day that you realized that land investing was, for you, way more interesting or fun or less stressful than the house flipping?

Oh, man, the day I read the book before I even started.

Okay, so even before you started. But then, I mean, were you skeptical going into flight school? Like, what was that like?

Oh, yeah. You know, I've. I've read so many books and done so many courses in my life and paid so many hundreds of thousands of dollars towards coaching programs, and, you know, it's. I've. I've ridden the roller coasters of. Of the real estate world and all the gurus, and I just thought, I don't know about this. It's like it was almost too good to be true. But at the same time, like, when I joined flight school and I started seeing people actually doing it, and then I actually got that deal and I started doing. I was like, whoa. Like, okay, this might not be, you know, as impossible as it seems, like it might not be too good to be true. And it's not. You know, I've. I've since met so many other land investors that are doing it, and there's a lot of land investors out there that are doing it different ways, you know, than. Than what your model is. And. And they. A lot of them have talked to me and tried to get me to do things with them that some people Want to buy land and then go and develop it. You know, like, go and put. Put pro. You know, put some houses on it.

Right.

Why? I mean, I've done that for 20 years. Like, I don't want to do that anymore. This is so easy. If you're telling me that I can go and I can just. I can go buy a piece of property for $1600 and then make, you know, 14, $15,000 on it in six years, over a period of six years, and rinse and repeat that like. And I don't have to deal with toilets. I don't have to deal with complaining tenants. I don't have to deal with, you know, all the headaches.

Right. Yeah.

And the returns are amazing. So I. You know, one of the things that I learned in your. In flight school, one of the first things that they teach you is stick to the recipe, right? And this is the recipe, and it's called keep it simple. And I. Yeah, I'm done with all that stuff, man. I don't want to deal with it, so.

So if flight school was sort of getting the fundamentals down and proof of concept and giving your first five to seven deals, what made you want to scale and make it a real business and go into coaching?

Taking it to the next level is probably what I would say, why I wanted to scale and take and do the coaching. You know, I'm in a. In a program right now where I'm. It's an exercise program, and I'm trying to eat right and lose some weight. During COVID I gained a lot of weight from all the stress. And so I'm trying to get healthy again. And I tried and tried and tried for a long time on my own, and I couldn't. I just. It wasn't working. So I hired a coach. And since I hired that coach, I'm sticking to it. It keeps you accountable. You know, before I go and eat a candy bar, every day I think about. No, no, no. Like, I've got my macros to stick to. I gotta. I've gotta. I've gotta be accountable to my coach. And, and not just that. Like, I want to be. I want to get to where I want to go as fast as I can. And it's the same concept with land with anything in life. You know, a coach is just gonna get you there that much faster. It's gonna help you get there. They're not gonna get you there. You have to do the work and put in the time and effort. And that was another thing. Like, when I Had all these kids, like, all this stuff blowing up in my life. And, you know, for the last year, we homeschool, too. So I've been homeschooling five kids. The other four go to school. And. And it's just, you know, it's like, the coach is something that can help keep me accountable. And. And when you pay that much money for coaching, however much you pay, whatever it is, you're gonna want to make sure that you make that money worth, you know, worth its while.

Yeah. I mean, you pay to pay attention. I know I do.

Yeah.

Because. Yeah, because. And I have, you know, lots of different investments of. In myself, and I could easily, you know, go on and watch, like, a YouTube video on. On something and learn it, but when there's that connection and that person there, it's. And I'm investing in it, like, I'm definitely going to take action on what I'm learning. I'm not just going to be a consumer of it because I have to get that roi. And to your point, like, I'm accountable now to that other person. And so, you know, I'll do things just because I don't want to feel the guilt of not doing it. I mean, and sometimes someone else has to care about your success more than you.

Yeah.

And help us get out of our own comfort zone.

And I will say that one of my favorite parts about the coaching program isn't. I mean, I love Tate. He's my coach. But my favorite part about it is the. The WhatsApp channel that you can talk to people. If you have a question, you just ask in that. In that group, or, you know, you see what other. What other problems people are struggling with, and it's like. And the questions just get answered like that. The coaches are in that group, too. And so it's like, it's very, very educational. And. And if it wasn't, like, I would pay just for that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that was. Whole idea of it, actually, was to make it so valuable that people would even just pay for that. That part of it. So I'm happy, you know, for you to say that. It's good. It's good feedback. But knowing what you know now, what. What would you have done differently when you first started?

Knowing what I know now, I'm not really sure what I would do differently. I. I know I. I know what I'd do differently. Knowing what I know now, I would have gotten started, like, 20 years ago.

Okay. Yeah, for sure. For sure. What about, you know, what if I'm listening to this. And I'm, and I'm, I might be thinking to myself, well, is now a good time to even start land investing? What would your, your answer be? Like, you know, there's, we've, there's uncertainty in, in, in an economy. We're in an election year, Interest rates are up. Maybe we're going to recession, maybe we're not. What would. Especially given your, your house flipping background and doing bigger deals. What, what's your advice there?

Well, I'm always one to say by buy real estate. My stepdad, he was in real estate and he passed away back in 06. But he, he always, when we would go to a restaurant or anywhere and the waitress would, you know, be waiting for her tip and he'd say, here's a tip. Buy real estate. And yeah, I was always so embarrassed by it. I'm like, oh my gosh. And now, like, I get it, I get it. Like, you can't really go wrong with it. You know, it's, it's a great investment. It's much safer than in my opinion, you know, and then the stock market, than anything out there. If, you know, if everything goes to hell in a hand basket, we're all in the same basket. You know, it's not, it's like, so if you're not in the game, then you're not going to win anything, you know, and so you're, you're losing, you have a chance to, you know, potentially lose a little bit if something bad happens to the economy. But in my, and that's just like, but in my personal opinion, I'd rather own real estate than not if something went bad in the economy. Just.

No. Yeah, 100%. I'll tell you what I like about our model and is that you don't have to get bank debt to do it. So interest rates can do whatever they want, no problem. We're making our money on the buy. We have this huge, huge margin of safety of 300%. And even if the market turns on you, well, maybe it's 200%. It's just a huge margin of safety. And so things can really go sideways and you're okay. I mean, for as long as you've been. Have you lost any money on a deal? Lost money on any deals?

No. No.

And how many deals would you say you've done in the past year?

Since January, I've bought about 75 pieces of property and I've probably sold about 35.

Okay. So a little, A little less than half. And, and so as far as that piece is concerned. Would you say that for you the most challenging part is not deal flow, but more the marketing and sales?

Yeah, definitely. I'm actually in the market to find a salesperson right now.

And so I think. So the. And for you it might be that the, the bottleneck might be you as far as having the time to really. To do it.

Yeah.

Even still, like you still. It still sold 35 properties.

I know I was telling somebody the other day, I'm like, I'm really good at spending money. I can buy all day, you know, but I need to find somebody for my business that will help me sell because, you know, I am a good salesperson. But when you have. I have five kids now. I don't have the nine anymore, so we're down to five. But you know, when you, you've got five kids and school started, you're homeschooling, you're trying to. There's just a lot going on and I can't do that. I can't do everything. And so, yeah, that's the bottleneck I gotta find. And I do have some VAs, Filipino VAs. They're really good at the marketing side of it, but they're not doing a great job at selling. So I'm looking for somebody on like hiremymom.com or something like that.

No, absolutely. And that's a great tip as well. Yeah, is, you know, on, you know, for, for marketing you can create some processes of some systems and for them it's mainly copy paste. They could use a little bit of chatgpt. You want to judge that up a little bit as well and just make sure it's not, it's not just ChatGPT and, and then on the sales side having that US based person who's a little bit more sophisticated. And, and because when you don't have that type of time, speed to lead is so critical. So if you're marking on Facebook and they say, hey, is this still available? And you're homeschooling and it takes four hours for you to respond, you're really missing out on that opportunity where the person who is on it right away can immediately engage in that person when they're at their most warm and has a higher probability of closing that deal. So it is a solvable problem for sure. Which makes me think, so, Dana, you've got this big life, you've got all this going on. How do you, how do you stay sane? Like what's sort of a routine that you do that allows you to stay Mentally fit. Physically fit. Obviously, you have a coach for. For your diet, but what else are you doing to. To keep your sanity?

Oh, man. Sometimes I wonder if I really am saying. The exercise really helps. I actually. I walk no matter whether I work out that day or not. So, you know, I usually lift weights on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, but I walk every single day. And those walks are just amazing. You know, just listening to nature, becoming one with nature. But I try to walk about four miles a day, so it's usually about an hour to an hour and a half just walking. And I have some pretty funny stories that come from those walks. And that was going to be my tip, too. My tip of the day, too, is, you know, don't forget to laugh. Don't forget to find the funny things in life. Don't forget to smile. You know, there's a lot going on in all of our lives, and sometimes it can just be overwhelming and stressful and just, you know, you just. I mean, I was at a point when I read your book, when I was flipping that last flip where I. I couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel, and, you know, and I just. I forgot to laugh. And once I remembered to do that, like, I. Every day I keep a journal, and every day I try to write one thing that's funny from that day, just, you know, and it really works. It helps you be more grateful. It helps you be more calm. You know, just. You like people better. You don't, like, want to, you know, hurt everybody, right?

Yeah. Yeah. You're more patient with people. You. You have more compassion, empathy. I. It's so funny. I. You said you're like my doppelganger in that way, because I also try to walk, but three and a half, four miles a day.

Wow.

And I try to do it because it's hot here, you know, in the mornings. And when I don't do it, I feel like, oh, my gosh, something's off. So I'll try to do it at night when the sun goes down and just to get out of my head. And then I journal either if I'm. If I'm too tired at night, first thing in the morning, what I, you know, about yesterday and just reflect on that day and see if. Then kind of go back and see if there's any patterns and, you know, look for those. You know, what was I doing where I was having a challenging week or. Or sometimes, like, what was I not doing that I needed to do? And if it's causing all this angst and, you know, was I procrastinating a difficult conversation with a team member or was there. There's something in, you know, in the business I. I needed to do, but I. Yeah. I just didn't have clarity on. And so sometimes the best thing to do is something.

Yeah. Even when you're uncertain, the reflection on all of that is just so important, you know, and then just remembering to be happy.

Yeah. And then the weightlifting, I think, is so important.

Especially so good. It feels so good.

Yeah. So I think all these things are so critical, and we don't. We don't talk about it enough. I think in a business context where it's. It's tactical. Okay. Send out this many offers, and here's the best marketing platforms, and here's how you're going to build your sales assistant, your sales team. But ultimately, in the middle of all of this and taking on a new business, if you're not your best self while you're doing it, it's like you're wearing a rucksack every day and you're just weighing yourself down. And so I think that you're helping yourself be more lighter and joyful in the business.

Yeah. And in life, you need that breath of fresh air every day, right?

No. 100% for sure. So before we get to your other tip of the week, which I know you have, how would you say life has changed for you since starting land investing and going through flight school and going through the coaching program?

Um, I feel like there's more direction. Like, you know, I feel like with the flipping, there was house flipping, there was a. Which I still might do. You know, I'm still going to do a few here or there. I. I'm good at it. I like it, but I'm just not going to do 100 a year like I was doing. You know, it's just too much. I might do one or two a year, but. And there's nothing wrong with it. But what I love about. About this one is where is that? I know my direction. Like with house flipping, you put all this money into it and time, and you don't know when it's going to sell. And you're shooting for 20% returns most of the time. Right. And you don't always get that because there's always, like, an unknown factor that happens. Like a roof goes out. You have to. Oh, I didn't know I was going to have to replace the roof. Oh, my gosh, this foundation is horrible. I'm going to have to replace the foundation. I'M going to have to like, you know, there's always these unknown factors. And I feel like in land, like you said, you've got such huge margins, you know, that you don't have in any other niche of real estate, you know, like, because, because there's so many people trying to get, trying to flip for one thing, you know, it's saturated, it's a saturated market. And I feel like this market is not saturated at all. There is so much wide open opportunity in the land business. And so that would be my main thing that I love about the lowland business is it's slow and steady. You know, it might be a river of nickels, but it's still going to get you somewhere. You know, you can see it, you can see your future and you can, you can build upon it. Whereas in, in the flipping world I felt like I was always uncertain. I was like, okay, how much am I going to make with this? Because you don't know how much somebody's going to offer on that house. You know, you hope that you're going to make 30 grand on it, but after inspections and all those things that happen, like you probably make ten grand on it. And that was like, you know, I even had it down to a science. I was, I was flipping, I did a couple of seven day flips and all of my contractors are like, oh, this is horrible. Like, why are we doing this? And I'm like, it's not horrible for me. It's, it's horrible for you because I'm, I'm gonna stay right on top of you and you have to like get things done when you're, you know, you have to get them done. You can't just drag it. But you know, anybody that's on the money side of it, that's going to be awesome for them because you can, it's more calculated, right? I know how much I'm spending seven days worth isn't going to like blow the bank. I'm not going to be paying an investor, you know, all this money for three months. I'm only paying them for seven days and then it goes on the market and you know, so those were pretty cool, those seven day flips. But land is way cooler than even the seven day flips. Land is just, I'm so excited about it. I've been doing it for over a year now and I am still excited about it. You know, like, like when you get married, you're in a honeymoon or, you know, you're in that honeymoon phase for the first year or whatever. Like I thought I was going to be in a honeymoon phase with land for a little while and then it was just gonna like dull out. It hasn't yet. And I'm loving it and I'm so grateful for it. So thank you, Mark.

No, Dana, you're. You're just a beam of light and just a joy and the lanky community is just so lucky to have you as well. And you've been a tremendous resource to other people and it's. Yeah. So I'm, I'm just as grateful.

But thanks.

We are now at that point where it's time to ask you for your tip of the week. A website resource, a book, something else actual. But before you do, I do have to give a shout out to our sponsor which is flight school. Learn how to be Dana. And she started with a 16 week program. And get that fundamentals. Get those first to five to seven deals under your belt. Get that proof of concept and start building your passive income without any renters or rehabs, renovations or roads. I know what you're thinking. What about the, the tuition, the investment and it going to cost you nothing. Guaranteed. You're going to make it back 180 days or less. Just show us you did the work. Learn more. Go to language.com forward/training language.com forward/training database. What is your tip of the week?

Tip of the of the week. If you haven't read Mark's book and he did not tell me to say this, I just tell everybody this. Now read it and see if you can do something with it yourself because it will change your life if you, if you let it. And I'm so grateful that I read it. So that's my tip.

Well, look, that's, that's my favorite. So. So read Dirt Rich. My tip of the week is learn more about Dana. Look, check her out, see what she's doing. Buy some land. Go to buy. I don't have a link to this. Buylotsofgoodness.com buy lotsofgoodness.com I love that website name. How'd you come up with that?

Thanks. I just needed lots of goodness in my life and I thought I'm selling lots. So it's lots of goodness. And there you go.

So good. So good. All right, well, I want to thank the listeners and I want to remind you that if you're getting value from Dana, just do three little favors. Follow rate, review the podcast, send a screenshot of that. Review supportlandgeek.com I'm going to send you for free a signed copy of Dirt Rich. So. But even if you've read Dirt Rich, you've listened to Dirt Rich, you're over Dirt Rich. Just do it selfishly, because I'll get Dana to come back and give us more. More pearls of wisdom. So thanks so much. And Dana, are we gonna do this together?

Yeah, let's do it.

1, 2, 3. Let let freedom ring.

Woohoo. Thanks, Mark.

Thanks, Dana. Thanks everybody.

Thanks for listening to the Art of Passive Income podcast. Are you ready to learn how you can start building a passive income without renters, rehabs, renovations, or rodents? Schedule a free consultation@thelandgeek.com forward slash training. Let freedom ring.