​You Need To Embrace Hearing The Word NO

Hey, it's Mark Podolski, the land Geek with your favorite niche real estate website, www.thelandgeek.com. and before we talk to today's guest, which is she's gonna be really interesting to talk to, I want to properly introduce my Six Sigma Co host, Scott Todd from scotttodd.net land moto. And if you are not automating your Craigslist postings, posting domination.com TheLand Geek, Scott Todd.

How are you, Mark? I'm fabulous. How are you?

My headset's not working well, so I'm hoping the audio is okay for today's podcast. But other than that, I am thrilled that two of my three Philips hue light bulbs are working.

Yeah, you're a little behind the curve. I know you're trying to catch up to me on my home automation task. I'm streaming along, man.

Yeah, I think I'm think I'm gonna do a blog or a video on, like, my 10 favorite things.

Yeah. I'll tell you, I told you before the show, I hooked up the ring doorbell thing. Not that this is an endorsement form, but I love it, man. I could bring up my door right now live on my phone, see who's there, talk to them. I could be at boot camp.

At boot camp.

Entering the door then. Yeah. I don't need what you're selling.

No, I'm getting it. It's a done deal.

That's my tip of the week, actually.

I'm keeping up with you.

Yeah, you're doing a good job. Doing a good job.

Yeah. So you know what, Mark?

Today we got to talk about a very serious topic.

What's that?

It's like, it's important. That's what our guest is here for. Right?

Right.

To help us to get beyond no.

Getting beyond no is so important. And today's guest is Andrea Waltz from goforknow.com yes is the destination. No is how you get there. And Andrea Waltz is a big deal. She's co authored five books. But the book that is the highest bestseller is Go for no. Andrew Walts. How are you?

Hey, guys. I am doing great.

So, Andrew, did you just wake up one day and you're like, you know what? Go for no. What happened there?

Well, my husband and I, who we run our business together, we speak together. He actually created the phrase and came up with the idea going on 20 years ago because he learned this strategy from somebody who, after he had this amazing sale at a clothing store he worked at, his district manager came up to him and said, richard, what did that customer say no to? Because he had this amazing sale. And Richard said, well, actually, he didn't say no to anything. Everything the customer I showed him, he bought. And so the district manager, a guy by the name of Harold, said, well, then how did you know he was done? And that was kind of the impetus, the lesson that Richard learned. And Harold said, your fear of the word no is going to kill you. But if you could learn to get over that, I think you could be one of the great ones. So fast forward, forward. We meet. We quit our corporate jobs, we launch our training company, and one of the things that we taught was this go for no philosophy. And it was the thing that everybody loved. And so you're kind of right, Mark. We kind of did wake up one morning and say, go for no. That's the brand, that's the website, that's the book. That's everything.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't know about Scott. Maybe he doesn't have the same kind of fear, but I don't know if you ever get over fear. Rejection. Right. It's just kind of human nature. I mean, Scott, do you agree? Yeah.

I don't care how strong you are. I think that there's always that fear of being told no that stops us from doing so many things.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's why we're. It's kind of this ongoing process. We tell people that they need to reprogram how they think about failure and rejection. And yet I have people who will read the book and then they'll tell me. They, you know, they read it, like, once a year. They read it every couple years because it's just this ongoing kind of reminder that, hey, you're gonna be told no. And instead of avoiding no, instead of avoiding failure, you've got to intentionally go out and hear no more often because that's the only way to desensitize yourself to it. That's the only way to have it not impact you so much that. So that you allow bigger opportunities to come your way.

I mean, that really is as I'm even, like, rethinking about what you're saying. I mean, it really is funny how as humans, like, we try to figure out how not to get to the word no. I mean, I know, like, even when I'm, like, buying real estate or really anything, I try to figure out, okay, well, I don't want to be too low, so let me. Let me make the offer, like here. And, you know, then they say, yes. You're like, why why didn't I go lower? You know, like, I should have got. You do want the no. But then we don't necessarily want to hear this. This simple two letter word of no. I don't know why.

Yeah, I mean, and sometimes I even take it personally, right? I'm in the middle of a land sale, and I think the person is gonna, you know, put their down payment on a. On a piece of property, and then they're like, you know what I want to do, but I want to think about it, right? And then I kind of stumble, like, okay, like, I don't want to be too pushy. I kind of let them off the hook, even though I know that it's really a good thing for them based on our prior conversation. So, Andrea, how do I get over it?

Well, that's a great example. And we all hate the. Let me think about it. You're not alone, Mark. Yeah, that's kind of. That's the worst. How do you get over it? Well, you get over it one of two ways. One is you do learn over time that the no's are going to come and you really embrace them. And then you figure out, okay, you kind of accept that no as a gift, and you say, all right, what am I going to do with this now? What can I do in my actions and my behavior, and what will I do in my thought process? So one of the things that we teach is that is one to never berate yourself. You know, a lot of people, we're very good at celebrating success, celebrating the yeses, high fiving when we close the deal, right? And then when we don't close the deal, it's, oh, man, I screwed up. I'm failing. This is horrible. And we set this precedent where we can only be happy with ourselves when we're getting yes. And so it really makes us avoid those opportunities to go out and hear no. Like to avoid asking somebody, hey, are you ready to follow up with a lead and take a chance and put yourself in a position to have that person say, no, I'm not ready. I told you last month I wasn't ready, and I'm still not ready. And so you avoid those opportunities to hear no. Berating yourself is really not a good thing. It really comes down to celebrating it. And then the other thing that we talk a lot about, there's a lot of strategies, is just how do you respond in your actions? A lot of people, when they get that, no, they are done for the day, sometimes they're done for the week. It's just like they kind of crumble. And we say, set a no goal, collect a certain amount of no's every day or every week. And when you get that, no say, all right, well, that's one toward my 10 goal of getting 10 nos. And so I just, I need to keep going. I need to keep out there. I need to keep an activity rather than letting yourself crumble. And then kind of to what you said, though, Mark, to answer your specific question is, yeah, you can learn specific things. You can learn techniques and scripts to, you know, how do you manage that? No. So it's. Wow. Like, I'm surprised that you want to think about it. Just, just for my own research, what do you want to think about? You know, and you, you can, there's ways of massaging that. Sometimes it's not appropriate. Like, you're right. Sometimes you don't want to be pushy, but sometimes you can ask a question to maybe dig a little deeper and see what the issue is. Sometimes you learn, as I know you guys know this, sometimes you learn the issue isn't what you think it is. Right. Sometimes it's something totally different that you can manage.

Right? Right. So, Andrew, here's, here's a common scenario. You know what? I really want to invest in that five acre parcel, but I've got to talk to my spouse.

Yeah, what do you. Yeah, what are you gonna do with that? No, you ha. You ha. Yeah, you have to.

Do they want to talk to their spouse or are they saying no?

Right, exactly. And that's the, that's the moment again where you really, you really want to think through the plan strategically. And so then it's all right. Yeah, of course you do. And the reaction, guys, is always one of being positive. Right. We want to always really be positive. Even though inside you may feel a little negative. You may have those, you know, those, those programmed feelings of, oh, no, I'm losing this, or this is going to end up being a no. And so you start getting a little nervous. It's acting, it's really responding positively. So this person doesn't feel like they're being pushed. Pushed on. They feel like, hey, this person's gonna work with me. They're being consultive. And so it's like that positive response. Oh, of course you, of course you do. I mean, who wouldn't. You would be crazy not to talk to your spouse. So you really kind of validate them. And then it's. So then the next question is, all right, so, you know, does it make sense then that we all get together. Does it make sense? Then we, maybe we all get on a phone call next, you know, how's next Friday? And you kind of, you really try to solidify that next step.

I love it. I love it.

Scott Todd, I gotta tell you, Mark, I like what we just said. The no goal. That's a great tip, right? You know, like set a no goal, a daily no goal. How many times can you be told no by somebody and then you're embracing it and you're out, like, hunting for it?

I mean, I'll tell you, when I started with Loan Geek and Stripe was kicking people off because real estate was a prohibited business, I had to call like 50 banks. I mean, and they all said like, no, no, no, no. High risk, high risk. We don't do lending, we don't do lending. We don't do lending, right? And I, it's, I mean, I'll be honest with you, Andrea, I was starting to think, like, maybe I should just scrap this thing, right? But then on that 51st call, I got my yes. So I always think to myself, well, what if I quit 30? I never would have found my banking partner.

That's awesome. Mark, we're going to need you in our go for no for real estate book, because that's the perfect go for no story. And that's really what we're talking about here is, you know, sometimes you have to, you're going to hear no a lot. And if you have a goal or a dream, you have to decide if it's important enough to put yourself out there and hear no over and over and over again until you finally succeed. We are, in our speeches, we always use the funny example of Colonel Sanders, you know, out driving around looking for people to buy his recipe for the chicken. It took 1009 times before someone finally said yes. And now, of course, KFC is this amazing brand and all of that rejection panned out well. So ultimately, though, you have to have that passion and that drive sometimes to make it through all those rejections.

Scott Todd, when do you quit?

Well, that's a good question. I was just thinking the same thing. You know, like, how many no's do you take from, from one customer? Because, you know, like, what I've always been told and always heard was, you know, get, get to know three times. And then like, they're serious, you know, like, ask them no or ask them, let them, let them say no. Ask again in a different way or present something different. And when you get to the third no, that's the End. But I'm really kind of questioning whether or not that's legitimate or not. I mean, just over the weekend, I was buying some. Some Cyber Monday kind of stuff. You know, online training stuff. And it's funny because you get to the shopping cart and you make your purchase for the deal, and then it's like, oh, by the way, would you like this? Like, no. Okay. By the way, would you like this? No. Would you like this? Stop it already.

No.

So I still think that three is the number, but let's see what Andreas.

Andrea, what's the number? How many knows before we say, okay, this person's really not a buyer?

Okay, well, I hate to overcomplicate this, but. Well, so there's different kinds, right? Every different scenario. So in that instance, when you're upselling something. Yeah, I would say three is probably reasonable. And as long as our. Our kind of mantra is, hey, as long as it's appropriate for the customer. So, for example, like, Scott, based on what you were buying, those. Those three upsells were probably things that complemented the package you were buying or things you probably were going to be interested in based on the fact that you were on that website. And so those are reasonable things. A lot of times people ask us, though, how many times you follow up somebody who's kind of like a, hey, I'm not ready. It's just not a good time for me. Can't make the investment, whatever. And then it's, well, how long do you stay with that person? Right? And that answer is, as long as it takes. So you may hear no from somebody once a month or once every quarter for years. And I've talked to so many people who have done that. I had a speaking client, actually, it took us nine years to finally speak for them. I had them on my list. It was just. For me, it was a matter of time. So unless somebody tells you outright, hey, I'm out of, like, for you guys, I'm out of the land game. I have not. I am just. It's never going to happen. I'm not doing this. I'm, you know, whatever. Take me off your list, then it's a serious good no. And you can say, all right, I'm not going to spend any more time with this person. But if they don't do that and they're still kind of like, hey, someday I want to, then you stick with them forever.

Yeah, I like that. I mean, you know, especially with big ticket sales, it's a long sales cycle, and you can't expect Somebody to invest, say, $20,000 or, you know, even $10,000 on a piece of real estate that's really more a luxury item. It's not like a house, right? Nobody wakes up and says, I need raw land. They want raw land and expect the hard sell. It's got to be something that has to be sort of massaged over time. You have to generate interest. You have to make it irresistible. And then it happens. And sometimes they will say no for now, but not forever. So, Andrew, what kind of mindset do we need to get into then to go for no?

Well, I'm glad you asked that, Mark, because that is exactly what I was just thinking. It really is a mindset. We talk about go for no as a strategy, right? So there's some strategies around it, but it's also just a mindset in that we have to change how we view failure and success. And this is one of the things we talk about in our book, is most people see failure and success as choices. I'm either gonna fail, I'm gonna succeed one or the we have. We created this little diagram where it's actually where you are on kind of the end of the spectrum. You're not in the middle where you're choosing between one or the other. You're kind of at the end of the spectrum. And the failure and rejection that you have to move through, that you're seeking, that you know you have to deal with, is really in the middle, and the success you're seeking is on the other side. And so we actually spend a lot of time in the book and when we speak and things talking just about getting people comfortable with the idea of failure, because that is what a no is, right? It's kind of like, wow, I failed. And nobody wants to be seen as a failure these days. And they want to be perfect and they want everything to go easy. And so that's kind of the underlying mindset to this whole thing, is understanding that you can fail your way to success. That when you get to your ultimate goals and dreams, you're going to look back and there's just going to be a complete line of failures. Right? There's gonna be failures all along that path and lots of no's and lots of rejection, because that's just how it is.

Yeah, no, it's. It's true. So I've never asked this question before, but I was thinking, like, this is sort of like the ultimate question to make you really think. Andrea, are you ready? It's gonna be. It's gonna be A tough one. All right, Scott, are you ready for this?

I am ready.

All right, Andrea, tell me and tell us. Shouldn't say tell me. Tell us something we don't know about selling. Assume that we know a lot, right? Like, we've read Robert Cialdini, Persuasion. Scott's got Grant Cardone stuff out the wazoo, Right. Tell us something we don't know about it.

Oh, my God. It's really hard. That is really hard. All right. Okay. I'm up to the challenge. Well, I don't know. I don't know what you guys know, but it sounds like you guys know a lot. It sounds like, you know, you can.

Assume, you know, we've been in business a long time.

Right.

Probably know quite a bit. But there's probably something you, as an.

Expert.

Like, we don't know. There's something we don't know. Tell us what we don't know about it.

All right, I will tell you this. I will say this in my opinion. And the thing that most people aren't paying attention to from a sales standpoint and I think is the kryptonite to a great sales strategy. I think it's the kryptonite to having a good go for no strategy. And we all do it. And I think it's the single. I think if you can get this out of the way, it is the single biggest hindrance to most people having an amazing sales career or business. And that is the tendency for all of us to make assumptions and prejudge and decide for someone else what they're going to do, what they have to spend, the final decision that we're going to make. And ultimately why we do that is to protect ourselves from failing. Because ultimately, most people want to be successful, and so they believe that their job is not to fail and not to learn, but to just simply prove themselves. And so ultimately, sales for many people is simply about proving their worth, proving how good they are. And ultimately, it's got to be changed to learning, growing, and failing. And that's where the big. The big explosive sales growth happens.

That is a great answer. That is seriously deep, Scott. Todd smiling.

Yeah, it really is. I mean, it makes sense, right? Like, it seems very logical. It seems very down. Like, it just seems simple, but it really is. Following that will help you to move the needle.

Yeah. See, Andrea, I'm glad I asked you such a difficult question, because I don't think you would have brought that up. Would you have?

I don't know. Maybe, Maybe not. But that's why I'm on your podcast, Mark, is because you two are. And I learned that about you just from listening already. So I was prepared a little bit.

No, it's great. It's a great answer. I want to explore it a little bit deeper. Can we go even deeper?

Yes.

So when you say that the typical sales person is in it basically to prove their own self worth, is that what you're. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Yeah. And I'll tell you where this, this whole thought process stems from. And one of the. There's two resources, and one of them. I'll give in my tip later. There's two resources that we have kind of folded into our go for no strategy. One of them is the work by Carol Dweck on mindset. And you brought up, though, you actually said the word mindset. And that has to do with having a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. And Carol Dweck is a woman who is a researcher. She's brilliant, and she's done a ton of research on this whole idea of learning, growth and failure, a lot of it with children. And of course, since we're all adults, we were children. And so a lot of the research is around how we're raised and how, and I think this is true for most of us is that we're raised with kind of doing things and winning and doing it not to learn and fail. And oh, good, I get to learn more. But kind of that pat on the head, you did good. And so as adults, what we find then, and. And I see this all the time with people is we don't like. Why we don't like to fail is because that's not what we were taught to do. We were taught failure is not an option we have to succeed. And so we get very afraid of failure and all of the ramifications that it means and people judging us and what are people thinking about us. And that is all kind of work and things that she's explored in her work on mindset and her research with children and people of all kinds. And so that's what I mean by self worth, is it's really operating in a fixed mindset, not in a growth mindset.

Yeah, I love that. And Scott and I say this all the time, that business is kind of like skiing, right? If you're not falling, we'll just say falling is failing. Right. You're not skiing hard enough. Right. If you're not getting out of your comfort zone and taking these risks and challenging yourself and growing, you're not you're limiting yourself.

Absolutely. And like, for example, one of the go for no strategies is, which dovetails right into that is going for big no's. Right? If you aren't out there going for big no's, no's that you go, oh my gosh, these people will never hire us or this bank will never. Like you're in your case, they're never in to loan me money. Well, what if they had said yes to you? Right? I mean, and so it's going after those, those big accounts, those big clients, where you are stepping outside of your comfort zone and then that stuff actually forces you to grow. So. But I think again, going back to this whole idea of mindset and the fear of failing is this, you know, desire to be perfect. And that's why one of the things that I talk about, I do something called the go for no 30 day challenge and a go for no seven day challenge that are free webinars I do on our, through our website, and I tell people, I'm giving you permission to fail. Like, you're not. This, this, this is not like, hey, Mark, go out, close the sale and come back to me. Like, that's a lot of pressure, right? I say, hey, Mark, go out and get a no and come back to me. It's a whole different. Right. It's just a whole different feeling because you say I could go out and do that. Like, I could go out and get a no. How hard? What could that be? The irony is it actually can be challenging. So it turns it kind of, kind of fun and you learn, I can fail and then I can eventually succeed. And that changes your mindset around it. So we can get you out of the fixed mindset into more of a growth mindset.

I mean, that's so powerful right there.

Yeah, that right there was worth the whole podcast, Andrea.

Yeah, it's incredible.

Well, good.

I'm so glad, you guys, because I totally believe in this. And I hate to see people who shrink away from what they're, you know, what they really want to do over something that quite frankly, it is just mindset. It is just some programming that you can get beyond.

No, no, absolutely. It's, you know, it's all mental, isn't it? Just, just we limit ourselves, you know, and you said it like nobody, nobody wants to feel judged. Nobody wants to feel, feel like they're a failure. Nobody wants to feel like they're not good enough. Right? But when you say it, like when you go for no, you give yourself permission to go after These big goals and big dreams. So what if you get a thousand and nine no's, Maybe the thousandth and tenth is going to hit and you know, and you're doing it right. I think that's, I think that mindset of that growth mindset is so critical. We don't, I think intellectually we know it, but I think to integrate it and really practice it can make the biggest difference in your life. Scott Todd, do you agree?

Yeah. In fact, you know, if you listen to the people that have had success, they always talk about, you know, don't think small. Right. Go big. And you know, even if you go to the president elect's book, you know, the Art of the Deal, he even says in there, like, if you're going to think, think big, what's the problem? You know, think big. And then what we do is we walk ourselves back off the path, back to the small deals where it's comfortable and safe for us. But Mark, you know, like when you had Grant Cardone on your time about failing, what do you say? He said, if you're going to fail, fail big.

Yeah, exactly. He said, you'll get more support if you lose $100 million than if you lose a million dollars.

Yeah.

So Andrew, are you a Grant Cardone fan?

I am, I am. I love Grant Cardone. I think he's got very inspirational motivational. Definitely. I haven't studied him. I haven't studied the techniques, I haven't studied him. But I follow him. Like I will watch his videos. I follow him on social media, guys.

Crazy.

He's crazy. All right, Andrew, are you ready for your to get put on the spot one more time?

Yes.

Tell me something. No, I'm just kidding. What is your tip of the week? A website, a resource, a book, something actionable where the art of passive income listeners can go right now, Improve their businesses, improve their lives. What have you got?

Well, so my tip of the week kind of actually dovetails into the question that you asked, which is why when you said, were you going to bring this up? I kind of am bringing it up in a roundabout sort of way. My tip, a lot of times, guys, people listen to this stuff and they go like, they get it intellectually and they go, okay, I can do that. I can go for no. I can go for a big. No, I can call a big client or prospect. And yet it becomes difficult emotionally. And so one of the main resources I recommend is something called the four Agreements. And for that I read this many, many years ago and it totally changed my Life and has helped me teach and train. Go for no one of the or two of the four agreements. Actually one is don't take things personally, which we talked about early in the show about. Right. We take no personally. And one of the other four agreements is don't make assumptions. But how do you do that? And how do you value someone else's opinion? And how do you kind of value it so much that you can move beyond it and truly not make assumptions and truly not take things personally? That is shown in this book in a kind of mystical, magical, spiritual kind of way. Because the book is pretty touchy feely. It's not, you know, like a traditional business book, but I think it will open a lot of eyes. So that's my tip of the week is if you need more help with Go for no kind of on an emotional level. Definitely the four agreements.

Don Miguel Ruiz. See and Andrew. So, you know, we just had another guest bring up this book.

Really?

I read it a long time ago. I'm going to revisit it because too many people are talking about it again.

Yeah, it's a fabulous work. And I know there's a fifth agreement out there and I don't know what that is.

I think the fifth agreement is to, you know, give more then you take.

Okay. Interesting. Yeah.

What do you think of that? I just created the fifth agreement.

Hey, I like it. It's a kind of. Well, it's kind of a go giver. Like a go giver philosophy. Like my friend Bob Berg who wrote the Go giver.

Yeah, there. Yeah. See, there you go. Or you know, give and take. Adam Grant. Mm. Scott. Todd, what's your tip of the week?

All right, Mark, I. Mine is an app. It's obviously it's Apple based Mac or iOS, but I've been looking for something to use through our flight school to help whiteboard some things for the group. And if you're not familiar with flight school, Mark, it's a nice plugin for you after this. But the app is Bayboard, it's Bai Board 3 and basically it's an online whiteboard. So what's cool is we can collaborate over a shared whiteboard. Or right now I could do a screen share and actually bring up the whiteboard that we whiteboard out together. And guess what? I can use it and write with like my iPad. I can use my iPad to build the board. Everybody can see it, we can collaborate, we can, we can all chime in and it's pretty cool.

I love it. I just, I just downloaded It.

I've been using it over the weekend. I enjoy it.

All right, well, my tip of the week is to apply for flight school. Just kidding. Just kidding. No, my tip of the week is to get this incredible book, Go for no by Andrea Waltz and her husband, Richard Waltz. I think it could be transformative in the sense that I really think that we touched upon something that it doesn't get talked about enough. Right. There's a lot of tactics out there. You know, there's a million how to books and tactics on selling, but nobody talks about the no enough. And the mindset of, you know, basically persistence and in dealing with it and having a good attitude about it in this growth mindset. So, Andrea Walts, I want to thank you so much and I want to just remind all the listeners, go to go4know.com I will have a link to it as well. And. And get the book. Is there an audiobook too? I'm a big audio fan. Andrea.

Yeah, we are on audible. Yeah.

Now, are you. Are you the.

Speaker? My husband actually read the book.

Okay, great.

Yeah.

Very cool. All right. Well, are we good?

This was amazing, guys. Thank you so much.

Well, thank you. I do want to remind all the listeners that flight school is. We are taking applications right now. And you know, I say this again and again, how to that we've seen just doesn't work. You can't just pick up, you know, a massive home study course, think that you're gonna just, you know, be able to execute. What we found is that it takes support, it takes focus, it takes accountability, plus the knowledge. So there's no longer knowledge gap out there. You get all the knowledge you want. It's an execution gap. And we are here to fill up to fill it. So if you're interested in flight school, just email supporthelandgeek.com subject line Flight School. And we'll get you a link the application. Also, I want to let everybody know that boot camp is coming. San Antonio, January 27th through 29th. Scott Todd's gonna be there and we'll have an advanced sessions as well as for newbies. So go to thelandgeek.combootcamp and get your tickets and get enrolled. We are already halfway filled, so do it now. And today's podcast is sponsored by Loan Geek. Loan Geek is amazing. No note setup, fees get paid, get automated. The newest feature is we have a backup payment. It is done so you can have as your primary ach and a backup as a credit card or vice versa. We've never made it easier to get paid on an automated basis. Set it and forget it. And it's amazing. Web based. No. No setup fees. Our fees are amazing. So if you want to learn more, you want to get in beta wave 2, just email supportlandgeek.com subject line loan geek Scott Todd. Are we good, Mark? We're great. All right, just learn more about scott@landmodo.com as well as posting domination.com.

And the.

Only way, the only way we're gonna get the quality of guests like the author of goforknow.com Andrea Waltz is if you subscribe rate. Review the podcast. It takes five seconds. Please do it. We'll be eternally grateful. Send us a screenshot. We're gonna send you for free the passive income launch kit, a $97 course which is really good before flight school. So I want to thank all the listeners and. Scott, Todd, are you ready? Ready.

Let free.

Okay, wait.

Okay, start over.

One, two, three.

Let freedom ring.

It's so bad. All right, thanks, everybody. Bye.