Episode #15: Employee mental health, how to change/improve it through leadership

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Welcome to the IBM Keep It Simple Technology Podcast, where each episode we discuss technology, but in a simple way. We keep the explanations simple, but what we spend our time on is emphasizing what this technology means to you and how you can best utilize this technology for you and your business.

Welcome to the IBM Keep It Simple Technology Podcast. I'm your host, Thomas Anglero. Another episode, another exciting guest, and this one is extremely special. You know, every episode I do, and most of the time we cover technology, we cover leadership. And today, I found an ultimate person, especially in the area of leadership and more in how to be an amazing leader. This is a must-listen-to podcast for everyone. Ladies and gentlemen, I want to introduce you to my new friend who I've gotten to know now in the last 45 minutes prior to recording. She is Flick March. She's the IBM Security and Resiliency Director. Flick, are you there?

I am indeed, Thomas. Good morning. How are you?

Good morning. I am doing great because you have put me in a fard up mood. Um, what we've been talking about prior to going live now and recording, I, I think it's so incredibly important to share with everyone what we've been talking about. To, to bring everybody up to speed is that, you know, today, especially, especially today, right, we're dealing with the post-corona time. And probably in the history when people listen to this podcast, everything's post-corona, right? By definition. Corona, you know, it was before. So, everything's post-corona. But now, there's a stress level at work that's at an all-time high. And there are bosses, there are leaders out there who are just using this moment of taking their own personal anxiety and then the stress from work, having delivered Q1, having delivered numbers in Q2. And then, when they look down upon their employees, they don't behave exactly in the way they should behave. And Flick, ladies and gentlemen, Flick is also IBM's expert in mental health. She's a mental health first aider in IBM. She has the first-line view. She's the person that people call when you are an employee and you need someone to talk to. You can't take it anymore. You're just struggling. Flick is the person who comes and saves you. Do you understand why I'm so excited to have you, Flick, on this show?

I am indeed. It's an essential topic for so many people out there at the moment, Thomas.

It really, really is, Flick. When people call you, what state of mind? I mean, how many people call you? What's the percentage? Is it tough for people to call you? Can you share some stories, some perspective, please?

Yes, of course. It's really interesting, Thomas, because there's 3 different ways people reach out to me. One, when I'm on a call, I'll say, "How are you?" And twice last week I heard, "Meh, so-so," "Meh," and "Up and down." And it would have been so easy for me to just continue on to another topic. And I had to stop and say, "What do you mean, up and down?" Talk to me about up and down. And it's only when you actually lean in that little bit further to say, no, I want to listen, I want to hear why you're up and down, that actually then causes the half hour of an outpour and usually tears. The other thing that happens, the second way people reach out, is I get a couple of people last week pinging me saying, you know that work from home pledge you posted out on LinkedIn, which IBM's work from home pledge 'Could I have a chat with you about it?' And that was their way of saying, 'I don't think that I am capable of adapting that work-life pledge or work-from-home pledge because I'm being put under pressure, or I've got invisible pressure that I'm putting on myself.' And again, we have the phone up, 'What's the matter?' And I find that men are hard— find it harder to say, 'I'm not coping.' So where women are leaning in more and saying, I'm finding it a little bit hard, I'm finding it hard to juggle, men just find that they are under extreme pressure. The third way is, um, it'd be the managers reach out to me and say, I'm very concerned about that person, or they do say, you know, come out straight out with it and say, I am really, really struggling. They come to me because I think there is this invisible pressure, and nearly every single one that's come to me over the last few weeks has said 'Please don't tell my boss. Please don't tell my boss because I don't want them to think that I'm weak,' or it won't— or that massive pressure that it's going to impact my career. In terms of numbers, Thomas, it's significantly risen over the last few weeks. Now, I start all my meetings with 'How are you?' So I do make sure that everybody's all right, and if I feel that there's something that isn't quite right, I will pull them back and have a one-to-one conversation with them.

Yeah, let's spend— let's— let's— I gotta interrupt you there because I think it's so important just really to— let's spend time on the 'how are you,' just that statement. Let's teach people or remind people. Let's do that. I don't mean to disrespect anybody, but let's remind everybody how to say 'how are you.' So much in society and life, we're so, you know, we meet somebody, go, 'Hey, how are you doing? How's it going?' Or if you're from New York, 'What's up?' Right? But when we're talking about now, when you really mean how are you, it comes out. How are you? You're looking them in the eye. They feel what you're saying. They, they, they, they, they understand that this is the moment. And, and how often do people, even anybody out there, say that type of how are you, even to family members, right?

Although Thomas, with this, uh, what we're saying is the next normal. I don't think we're getting to quite a new normal yet. I think there's going to be a few next normals. There is collateral damage of this pandemic, significant collateral damage, but I think there is a significantly larger amount of collateral beauty. And working at home and speaking to people over the webinars, we are becoming human. I have met people's pets. I've met people's children. I— and even outside of work, my neighbor has a 5-and-a-half-year-old daughter who of course couldn't go to school. So every Sunday I pull up my chair and we are— we're about, uh, 8/10 through, or well, 9/10 through the, uh, the Charlotte's Web book. And we sit down every Sunday, me in my little chair and her sitting with my dog on a blanket, and we read a book. So It is all about bringing that love and bringing that human factor.

I want to join that call.

Oh, it's brilliant. We're just at the last bit of the book. So next Sunday is going to be the last. And she's already choosing the next book she wants me to read.

Beautiful.

But going back, going back to work. Excuse me. Going back to work. I think, Thomas Anglero, everybody is wanting to be more human. Everybody is bringing themselves out because we're in each other's homes. And when we all are, are on video call, we're meeting each other in our homes and we have to respect that. And I genuinely believe that I can bring my whole self to work because I put some mental controls in place, but the support and the kindness of my colleagues— and I think there needs to be a lot more kindness in the corporate world and duty of care of looking after our work family. We're not cold corporate people. We are a work family. We are human. And the more we recognize that we are a genuine work family and a support structure for each other, the better the world will be. And the benefit to corporations will be, I can bring my whole colorful, vibrant, wild duck person to work, which means I can bring far more innovation and inspiration into my job. Into IBM, which helps everybody.

I love what you're saying. And I just want to go right back. I want to make people feel that they're not alone. Because I think that's really important. You said that in the last few weeks, the number of calls that come into your— to the Mental Health First Aid line has increased. Can you give around about numbers? Because I think it's really important, right? There's a statistic on the internet where If you get an email complaint from someone, there's usually about 100 people who didn't write in. Or if you get a compliment from someone, there's 100 people who were just as happy but who didn't take out the time. What I see is that similar to the number of people who actually could pick up that phone call when they're down and out, depressed and just been torn apart. And it's really hard to pick up that call, pick up that phone. So, there must be hundreds of people who can't even do that.

Um, yeah, and you're right, Thomas, you've hit the nail on the head. So people that become mental health first aiders such as myself, you will find— and when I did the course, the reason we are focused on mental health so much is because we've been through, you know, pretty significant situations in our life, and we recognize the importance of making sure that we, we understand there's always blue sky above those clouds. There's always allowing you to have a perspective and step back. That doesn't mean that you have to have a significant event in your life to have mental health problems. But Thomas Anglero, it took me a long time to realize that I could pick up that phone. And I've got colleagues that have been in situations where they've put themselves under so much significant pressure, or been put in so much significant pressure, that they carry on, and they carry on to the point of panic attacks. And the concern I have is that when they actually do fall ill, they don't just fall in and need a week off. We've got— I've got a colleague who, who pushed herself to the point where she had to step out of work, and it took her 18 months to be able to get up and get dressed in the morning. So we are seeing people fall off a, a cliff. I've got another colleague who was off sick with mental health after significant pressure at work on a project where he was doing the work of more than, more than 5 people trying to keep things balanced because there'd been a resource action. And he said when he finally went off sick, he phoned up the Employee Assistance Program every day for 3 weeks. And I said, that is fantastic. He said, no, I phoned them up. And when they asked me for my name, I burst into tears and I hung the phone back up again. So he was off for 6 months. And finally came back, but it didn't break him, but he has turned into a different person in understanding where their tolerances, let's say their tolerances may come down. So when, what I'm concerned about with Thomas and the reason I'm so passionate about talking this through with you today is the amount of people that think that it's not okay to say I'm not okay, because I'm the first to put my hand up and say I am not coping. Today is not a good day for me. But how many hundreds of people don't feel they can do that or genuinely believe that if they say that, that they are going to have career limitations or be seen as weak?

No, exactly. You're not weak. You're human. You're human. You're struggling. We all struggle. There's no one that has a perfect life. You know, get off of Instagram, get off of Facebook. Do you know how many pictures people take to get that perfect picture to make everybody else envious of them? Right. There was this— a matter of fact, most people are on Netflix. There's a Netflix documentary and it's called Flickagram, Instagram, something like that. It's on social media. Check it out. Look it up on Netflix. And it's about all these influencers. One of the best scenes of the whole thing is this girl who spends all this time— and it doesn't matter if it's a girl, it could be a girl or boy, I'm not picking on sexes— spends all this time putting on makeup. She gets the perfect position, da da da da, preps herself up, takes the picture with a big smile, right? And the second after she takes the picture, she has this depressed look as she's looking at the photo, like, uh, okay, maybe I'll take another one. And then she both smiles and poses and fix the hairs and that, that's like, takes the picture and then My point is, we're all human, we're all flawed, we're all self-doubt, we're all driven by insecurity, we're all emotional, we're all a mess. No one got it perfect, and you're— and you're okay. That's the message to everybody. You're okay. You are absolutely okay. You found out that your husband has done this. You're not the only one. You found out your boss did this, your kid did that, the police called. You're normal. All right.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And what's really interesting, Thomas, with, with all these stresses that happen, the one thing that I learned and I, I share this quite widely is when you have an event that is significant, the physical reaction in your body is as equivalent as breaking a leg or both legs. So let's say, for example, you did find out your partner was doing something and you went through a significantly large amount of stress because of it. If I broke both your legs, Thomas, and then told you, you've just got to get on with it, everybody would, would find that ludicrous. So why, when you go through a significant event— and it doesn't have to be huge, it can be a large stress at work— why on earth would you think that you've just got to keep muddling through? And actually, if you do muddle through, you will make yourself sick. Sicker. So it's really important to understand that you need to look after yourself and have mental health and well-being. And that's where I, I come in, because it's really important for people to have a look at how they're managing their life and being responsible for their own mental health, as much as we're responsible for our own physical health. And when we should look after ourselves to make sure we eat well and we exercise well for physical health, but that Actually relates exactly the same to mental health. And I want to find a way to drop the stigma, and I want to find a way to say I'm not doing okay. But I also— and this is, this is the reason, one of the reasons I speak to you today— I also want to teach my executives and my managers that actually a lot of the mental health concerns that we have can be helped by saying 'How are you? How you doing? How you coping? How's the family? Anything we can do to help?' Because we are all a collective of work family, and the more that we act like that, the more people will feel they can act like that. If I have another conference call where we go on and nobody actually asks how you are and you go straight to business and there is no team there is no camaraderie, there is no discussion, then we are, you know, we are failing ourselves. We are failing our culture. We're failing our people. We're failing ourselves.

Where I want to go now is we've been talking from one perspective, which is as if people have a phone number to call people work in a company, that there are resources, right? I want to come from the other perspective. There is no phone number to call. The company does not care about me or us enough to set up such a service. And I am screwed because I have a boss who just yells at me, right? I have a boss that comes at the end of every quarter or they come every month or every week, depends on whatever their hell is. You get yelled at, right? I'm getting yelled at all the time, but I have a family at home, or I have a mortgage, or I just want to have a life. So I have to take this abuse, right? I think most people out there are probably in that situation. Most people feel they're in a helpless situation and they're taking this abuse. So where I want you to talk from is from two sides. The one side I want you to talk from is I want you to talk to the leaders, these bosses who are yelling, who maybe they're not yelling because, you know, even worse in my experience is when a person doesn't yell, that's when it's really bad. When they're able to tear you apart with quiet words, that really scars. So, I want you to talk to that group of people who are influencing and destroying people's minds and lives. And then second, I would like you to talk to those people who've experienced that. Can you do that and choose whichever one? I'm putting you on the spot. But, you know, I truly believe most people don't have a phone number to go to. They don't feel they have a friend they really could trust in, or maybe they have a friend, but they feel that they've unloaded on their friend so much over the years that they're embarrassed to go to them with this one. I think that's just more real life. So, let's, can Can you take them from there, Flick?

Yeah, absolutely. So let's look at the, let's look at the people that are doing the impact. And I, I, I was very lucky to have a coffee with a colleague who is come out of university and is now one of my colleagues, EA. And we had a cup of coffee and a virtual cup of coffee, and we were talking about the pressure that she puts herself under because she's working with execs. And of course course, because I've worked up through the ranks and, and I don't see myself as someone who is hierarchical. I am here to make sure everyone else's days are fun and magic. That was what my boss said to me when I walked into IBM. Have fun, be magical. Now that is something that I've always kept with myself going forward.

That's unique. That's really unique. I don't think many people have ever heard those words from a boss.

And I think we should, because if you are innovative and really vibrant, you can bring brilliant ideas to work and have fun during the day. And I'm passionate. Now, now let me tell you a little bit about— I do technical resilience, and my job is to make sure that companies know how to come back up technically after they've gone down, or stop them going down, especially in a virus attack, so they can continue to function. And I always say that resilience is Everybody's responsibility in the corporation. Everybody needs to know how would they continue to do their job and their role should technology go down so that the world can continue to pump. Now, exactly the same with mental resilience. It is everybody's job. It is not an HR thing. It is not a let's train a few people and give them a non-day job of being a mental health first aider. It is important that everybody understands their role in looking after everybody else's resilience. So going back to the, the coffee chat I had with this EA, she said the stress she used to put herself under in even writing notes to people like me— she would have to double, triple, quadruple check. And because I was a direct— I am a director, and, um, and also how they speak to me because they are worried because I have a director level. So I think, Thomas Yes, we have some bad behaviour from— there's always bad behaviour in every company, in every walk of life, where people are not realising the impact that they have with their actions. But I also think that we as directors and executives have a duty of care to think about how we talk to people and put people under scrutiny if we need to actually review their work. Now I'll give you a couple of examples, Thomas. I reached out to a few people because of Black Lives Matter. Now I am a mentor to 3 Black colleagues as well as a mentor to other people, but 3 Black colleagues. And I reached out to them before the big flurry of Black Lives Matter and said, how are you doing? How are you coping? And they said, do you know, Flick, you're the only person that's actually phoned me up to say, how you doing? 'You all right?' Now unfortunately, of course, we then had the next week of this big flurry of Black Lives Matter, and I've spoken to them since, and they said, 'My God, thousands of people have reached out to me now to see—' They actually said, 'To do the Black thing,' which was really interesting. So, um, what's most interesting from a mental— it is very interesting. And then actually, actually, they were saying, 'Please, I just can't talk to anyone else.' But going back to a mental health perspective, with that Black Lives Matter, it was a really interesting perspective of what they were saying about the, the fact no one was leaning in to see if they're okay. No one had at that point in time. So with our BAME culture, lots of people hadn't felt that they had the ability to lean in. And the same thing with mental health. And I have stopped calls when I finished my bit and said, right, we've got 5 minutes, how are you all doing? This is me, this is mental health. And I also share some information about my life because my life isn't perfect and I've been through some stuff so that I can show them that I am vulnerable and I am human and I am real. And some days they— things don't work very well for me, but I do my very best, as best as I can for that overall day. And that allows them to feel that they can do their best without feeling that they are failing. But we, we do have that going to those individuals. They are maybe putting themselves under a little bit of invisible pressure, which we all do because we're IBMers, and they do not understand what their bosses— or maybe there's a misinterpretation of what their bosses are saying. But going from an exec point of view, there is without a doubt some that are not saying, how are you, and not believing that they have a role in asking how people are and really listening. But they also don't understand the impact that they have. So at a certain level of your career, Thomas, we become politicians with a duty of care as to every word we say and every action that we take. We're setting a standard and we're setting an approach.

And there is— go ahead. That's true. That's true. Everyone, everyone over time, the echo is back again. Leaders, their words affect everyone. I want to personally challenge— I think what you're saying is great, but I want to be a direct challenge to all those leaders out there. Every leader, all these directors, executives, every time— let's turn the clock back to your first day of work, all you executives listening to this, right? You've been working for 40, 50 years, but do you remember your first day of work? You remember that first moment of coming into the office? You remember the first handshake? What would have been like if that would— in that moment, somebody would have yelled at you, would have cursed you out? It would have been detrimental.

It would have been, yes. Yeah.

So this is what the leaders, some leaders who are listening to this podcast, maybe your acquaintances and your colleagues, share this podcast with them because that's what you're doing. That's what you're setting in motion. And I think people need to reflect in that way in that you've now reached the 40 years into your career, you've done it. You're an executive, you know, you know, the whole Rocky thing, you did it. But your words, as you say, can tear apart somebody's the rest of their life in the next 40 years, you could send them to the left instead of going to the right. And as you said wonderfully before, a happy person is a much more innovative person. It is.

And we, I mean, Thomas Anglero, there is a, there is a thing called positive stress. And positive stress has been proven as being good for us. Otherwise, we would never get out of bed in the morning. And there is positive stress and there are pressured situations in IBM. Now, let me make this perfectly clear. I've come from a technical background and I have been a mega dealmaker. So I have signed hundreds of millions, in fact, one that was nearly $2 billion of business. So you can imagine the 4 AM, 5 AM signings of contracts because there's a press announcement the next day. There has been all-nighters. I remember one, I did a 4-day all-nighter and actually fell asleep on the desk. In the end because I was starting to hallucinate. So the pressure, there is good pressure and there are pressure that bosses have to put on. So I'm not a snowflake. I'm not saying let's do love, you know, peace and love. I'm saying yes, a significant amount of corporate pressure is fine because it's in a positive way. And we all hands to the pump. We are passionate techies that want to get the quality and the work done and we do it well. So as we talk about this, it's essential that people understand significant amount of positive pressure is a good thing, and we love it, and we're good with it, and we can cope with it. But when there is negative pressure— so comments such as, I've heard from mental— from people, um, 'I don't think you're committed. I don't think you're committed to this deal.' I've had phone calls from— heard people receive phone calls late at night from their bosses saying exactly that. And this is the kind of thing that we need to help our execs understand that this is not helping people bring their whole selves to work. And as corporate executives, we want everybody to bring their whole selves to work. Now I'm talking about a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage, and I understand that these people are under pressure themselves. And it's rather like when you're driving down the road and you're really angry with the driver in front of you because they've made a slight mistake. And actually, that's a really good sign for you to think, whoa, okay, what's up in my head? What's up in my head that's making me irritated with that driver? Because usually it's nothing to do with that driver. It is something inside your own head that is causing you distress. And this is why we put on bad, you know, have bad reactions to things that then sort of ripple off to the next person. So it goes back to, we have a duty of care. Everybody in our corporations have a duty of care. And in truth, you know, there's some things I want to do before I retire. I haven't quite had 40 years in the career industry yet. I am actually only 49. So no offense, but maybe 30 years. And by the time I retire, you know, there's a few things I want to do. One, I want to put some standards around resilience technically, so we make sure that's all there. The other thing is I want to get back to being a work family, because that first day I walked in and a wonderful boss called Pete Kearney welcomed me and told me to have fun, be magic. You know, when I walked into there, it was really interesting my first day in seeing all this wonderful stuff that I could be and all this amazing stuff I could be. And watching, you know, I want that experience because when I went down to the canteen that day and in that canteen there was an executive table and an executive dining room in a different place. And after they'd finished lunch, they all walked around the tables and talked to people. But when I was sitting at that table, I was in a complete medley of youngsters and old people and people close to retirement, people in the middle of their careers. And the conversation was, how's your son Bob doing at university? How's your wife's broken leg? How you doing with— and actually you realize that there is a thing called work-family, which I believe has maybe evaporated due to maybe us all being virtual. And maybe more of a corporate style. I don't know, but this is something we have got to get back because the more human we are, the more we can bring ourselves to work, the more we can be all that we can be. We can then reflect that into work, and that makes IBM magical. That makes me magical, and that means I can do my job, and it means I can make people more resilient. I can make technology more resilient, and I can make sure businesses are more resilient as well. So it all works. It's a win-win situation, Thomas.

I love that. I love that. I love that. The echo is back again. The picture of the work family is powerful because how many of us know that yelling at home doesn't work, right? In the moment, it may feel good, but it doesn't change anybody at home. Your kids are definitely not going to clean up their room or put away the dishes or make their bed after you yell at them. Okay, so why the hell do you think that methodology is going to work at work, right? Yeah. And the statement you said, the work family is powerful, right? You want someone at home, in your home, to do something, what do you do, right? When you, when you mess up, when I mess up with my wife, I got to buy roses. I'm sorry. What is it? You catch more bees with honey, right? And some bosses say, you know, that's so— I don't do that soft stuff, right? But when you're home, you better do that soft stuff or you're sleeping on the sofa. So my point is that the work family, the people at your work are your family. There's a statistic that you spend— some people spend over 50% of their life, their waking life, at work. So that's probably more family than your personal family that you have, your nuclear family back at home. And all the leaders out there, I want you to think about that. I want you to dwell on that. It is worth it that you spread that love to your employees. And I'm challenging the men out there who are going, well, I don't talk about that, you know, calm down, you know. Love is love. There are different ways to say it, different ways to show it. But all you have to do for your colleagues, for the people who work for you, is maybe not yell at them. And that's a form of love. You don't have to, you know, say, "Well, men don't use their words." Fine, then don't use those words, but show it because they are your family. They are your work family. Flick, we have a few seconds left, and I want you to have the last word. And I think we could keep going on this one for a long time, and maybe we will have another episode. Like to hear from everybody out there who's listening to this podcast in this episode. If you want more, you know, I will mess up Flick's work life and get her back on the podcast. Flick, do you have any departing thoughts or words for everybody?

I do, Thomas. So first of all, what I do for my mental health balance is I make sure I sleep well, I eat well, I have a routine, I do my exercise, and I make sure that I have my hobbies each day. So I would ask everyone to make sure that you every single day have a good life-work balance. Don't do the 5 days and think you can fit things in the weekend. Check what your structure is each day. And if you can go to bed and say, I was there or thereabouts, or if you need to trash the day because it's all going a bit wrong, then feel that you've got the right to do that. But you are You are in charge of your mental health and well-being, and it's your responsibility, as much as if you cut your hand, to put a plaster on it, that when you cut yourself mentally, that you can give yourself that amount of self-care and be able to put your hand up and say, I need some help, I need some support, because we're all out there and we're all full of love.

Beautiful, Flick. Thank you so much, ladies and gentlemen. That That was Flick March, um, my new— but was it bestie, best friend, BFF or something? How old am I? Damn. You know, Flick, this has been wonderful. And to all you out there, and in all seriousness, um, who have— who are down, who are taking the abuse, I want to reiterate and repeat and repeat and repeat two important things. Number one, you're not alone. And number two, Flick and I love you. We appreciate you spending the time listening to the IBM Keep It Simple Technology podcast available on Spotify, available iTunes, everywhere. Please share this with your friends, colleagues, family who need to hear these words, you know. We do this for all of you. Flick, from the bottom of my heart and from the center of my DNA, thank you so much.

My pleasure. Look after yourself, Thomas.

Thank you. You too. And to all of you, the same. Take care. God bless. Bye-bye, everybody. Bye-bye.