Episode #16 - How to be a Great Leader and Take Care of Yourself Through a Crisis

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Welcome to the IBM Keep It Simple Technology Podcast, where each episode we discuss technology, but in a simple way. We keep the explanations simple, but what we spend our time on is emphasizing what this technology means to you and how you can best utilize this technology for you and your business. Hello.

And welcome to the IBM Keep It Simple Technology Podcast. I'm your host, Thomas Anglero. Another episode, another great guest. And this is a friend of mine who I've known for quite some time. Ladies and gentlemen, we have the pleasure today of none other than Anita Hagir. I'm getting these Norwegian names right once in a while. CEO of Intech Engineering, family-run company. Here in Rofoss, Norway. And I love driving out here. I, you know, it's almost like a meditation class. It's such a long drive from here. Anita, how are you doing today?

I am doing great. Thank you, Thomas, and thank you for coming here.

Thank you for being on the show. I mean, I know yesterday you were on another show, so I mean, you are incredibly popular. So with all your popularity, let's jump right into, I think, one important thing that other leaders around the world who listen to this podcast want to hear from you, and that is experience. Experience during these times of COVID pre-COVID, during COVID post-COVID, or will we ever get out of post-COVID is probably another good question. But first, let's talk, let's jump. What is Intec? What does Intec do? And we get into that.

Yes, Intec is a company that do robotization and automation. So we help other industry companies to make their production more flexible and smart.

So robotization in what specific industries? Just so people— examples, what examples you have?

Well, in Norway we don't have like a huge industry, but we have a wide one. So we have helped a customer from everything from in the car parts industry to building automated battery factories for the marine.

Really?

Okay. Yes, for both Corvus in Bergen and Siemens in Trondheim, but also, you know, for food with Bauma or potatoes.

You mean potatoes?

Yeah, handling potatoes.

Of course, we're in Norway, potatoes, yes.

And other things. So we use our knowledge, you know, from one sector into another one.

Right. And from, I remember from our previous talk many years ago, God, we know each other well now. You take standard robots, re-engineer them, reprogram so they can perform specific tasks that your customer needs?

Yes, we don't do, we don't do like, uh, Hillevaren, but I don't remember in English what's the name of it. Yeah, we do custom.

Custom, yeah, right.

So no standardized solutions. So, uh, when a company wants to have a product and like with the battery factories, you know, the battery is a very living product that changes, you know, will change for the next couple of years or many, many years maybe. And then it's very, then it's the folks to have like production and cells that can be flexible so that you can change with the product.

Right. And that's where you guys specialize, right? Yes. So with that type of company where you have to be flexible and innovation is built into your company because every customer has their own request, their own demands and things like that, when COVID came, you as a CEO, how did you handle that situation where you're running a company of engineers and innovation and all of a sudden stop everything? I mean, what was that like for you?

Well, the first I had to was to breathe. Wow. Because, you know, when something this big happens, you know, and it happens in like in many areas of your life, you know, you are concerned about your kids, you are concerned about what will happen with your parents, then you are also concerned about your company and your employees. And then you are also concerned if you have enough toilet paper. So, you know, and every time you go into the media, there are red and yellow, you know, screaming at you, you know, danger, danger. So, you know, you need to know to— my first advice actually is, you know, to take a deep breath and start from there.

What you're saying is really profound because I've interviewed many leaders for this podcast, and whenever I ask them a similar type of question, right, I usually get a corporate answer. Well, the first thing we did was we organized together a steering group or something. And that's fine. That's a great answer. But your answer is different. Your answer is actually, I think, the most real answer of them all. And that is take a breath. I mean, it's about— you look about yourself, you look at your family, I think a lot of people listening now are probably like, oh yeah, she's normal. She's actually telling the truth. Am I supposed to be so corporate or should I be, wow, what am I going to do? What are my kids going to do? My husband, my wife, right? Please continue. I thought that was beautiful.

Because I know that if I can be calm, I can make better decisions. Because if I am in fear, because it's very easy to get in fear, because there have been sleepless nights, you know, what about, you know, We had to put some workers on unpaid leave, people that have been there for many years, people that I love, and put them into an uncertainty, but also the company was in an uncertainty and customers said, put a stop in us coming to them because of the not being affected with the COVID COVID.

So your customers said, don't physically come to us because of COVID We don't want you to give us anything.

Yeah. You know, because at that first point we didn't know anything, you know?

Oh, okay. Because I thought you were going to say customers said they just canceled orders, but you're actually saying customers say physically don't come to me because you might bring this virus to me.

Yes. Because we were doing in the middle of projects, you know, they said, no, don't come to us because no one is coming into our building other than our own workers.

Okay. This is a good topic. Yeah.

And then you have those that, you know, were either in, you know, we were almost at the start of a project, they postponed or canceled. And even, you know, big companies, big companies within the food industry, for example, who, you know, we bought food as never before, you know, but even they were insecure because of the whole, the whole, yeah, the whole world were concerned, you know, what will happen? Nobody knew. And everyone was waiting, you know, to see what happens. And so what is very important is that, you know, because fear is not a good place to come from. Like when you— maybe you have had those nights when you have woken up in the middle of the night and, you know, everything seems so, you know, hopeless. You know, you don't understand how you can come up with a solution. And you are twisting and turning, you know, and your heart is racing and, you know, you don't know what to do. And then you finally, you know, wake up and take a shower and suddenly things seem a bit better. And the sun coming in on you. And then you are starting to get ideas on how you can move on. And because I think that, you know, when you are in the fight-flight mechanism with the— when you are fear, you know, it's a good thing, you know, because it shakes you up a bit. You get out of the comfort zone, you know, you're— it's good, you know, to come out of the comfort zone because we people enjoy being in the comfort zone, and that can, you know, trigger you, if you do it in a good way, into being more creative and finding other solutions that you haven't been thinking about. But if you stay in the stay and flight, and when you stay in being fearful, you will make more not so good choices. And you, like, if you are doing a run, you run from a tiger, then it's a good thing, you know, you are in the fight and flight, you will run, you will run fast. But at one point of time, you know, you will be out of stamina and you will probably want the tiger to eat you soon. But if you come into another state, you will, you can use that, you know, to do some other solutions that they're creating.

Let me challenge you with very clear advice. Most leaders, when they're approached in a very stressful situation— COVID was an extreme stressful situation— and like you, you have employees who've been with you a long time and they pretty much are family because you're all from the local town, you know each other, you know each other's kids, right? How do you, do you go through, do you let the fear kick in and then get through the fear as quick as possible? Or did you just ignore the fear and go someplace else? And then the question I'm asking by that question is, what advice can you give to other leaders to do that? 'Cause they would love to do that, but a lot of them just get stuck in the fear.

Yeah, I don't think you can, if you put the fear on hold, it will eventually, you will eventually take it in too. So it's actually better, you know, to go into it and challenge it. And I guess people have different ways of doing that, but I can have one day when I am really scared, but then I try not to be involved with other people. You know, I try not, I don't, I don't want to bring my fear onto others while I'm working on my fear to find solutions. And I maybe, I try to do some positive things that can change my mood and my reaction, you know, be out in the nature, listen to music, you know, talk with someone that are optimistic or, and to, you know, so you can turn it. And then because Because what is good with our mind is that, you know, when we are triggered in the right way, we start being very creative and find solutions. You know, our mind wants to find solutions. But if we focus on the problem, we will find even more things to, you know, to undress— no, not undress, the other thing, you know, to focus on the problem instead of the solutions.

But, you know, Again, you're saying things that are very profound. You're actually saying that as a CEO of a successful company, that when you're in a fear-based state, mental state, your advice is it is okay to step away from the business, separate yourself from other people, don't— so that you don't spread the fear.

Yeah.

And physically put— just isolate yourself or be alone or go for a walk. It's okay to do that. Matter of fact, you're saying you're advised to do that. Until you're ready to be with people and be the leader and then spread a virus of success and opportunity versus a virus of fear and depression or whatever. That's pretty heavy, wonderful advice.

So I can go, if I have, because sometimes, you know, it gets too much emotions here and inside the body, so I need to do something. Maybe someone would go out for a run or something, but sometimes I actually need to go in my room and cry for 5 minutes just to get it out. But that means that I can let it go and then I can start again to focus on how do I get out of this.

And now I need to emphasize something really strong to everybody listening and watching because this is also on video. What you're saying, men do as well, but then they feel like they're not allowed to and they'll never tell anybody. Right? So I talk to a lot of men, a lot of leaders, and they, and very few of them ever admit that they cry. I just want to make sure everybody knows it's okay to cry. It's healthy to cry. It's the express lane through that moment. And so you can stand back up. So I want to make sure everybody knows out there that you're giving advice, not as a woman, you're giving advice as a leader. And this is not a woman thing to cry. It's actually a very powerful method of getting through things.

Yeah. It's, you know, I, Sometimes have the example of the car, you know, you have the climate. Yes. And when you stop the car, you know, sometimes it gets water under the car, you know, from the climate.

Oh, you mean from the air conditioning?

Yeah, air conditioning.

Yes.

Yeah. But it's a part of it. So like crying, that's this way of losing because you are wanting to hold the right temperature, temper. Like in your life. And the crying is just a release to get the temper to stay at the— And that's a car example. So it's not a woman thing.

No, I know, but I just want to make sure because we had a lot of male showbiz men going, say, she's a woman, she just cries. And I want to make sure I kill that real quick.

Yeah, but it's different. I don't cry in front of my employees or it's my private space and you can meditate or you can do whatever, but because it's individual, how do I fastest get out the steam that I need to get into another state?

And that's life advice, right? You do this for all the things that are frustrating you or you're stuck in in life, right? Cry through it, go through it.

Because with me, When I get scared or frightened, you know, something happens, you get an email, you know, some customer is mad about something or something you lost or, you know, you get this— like you stop breathing and you crunch your whole body. And, you know, it's hard to get out of that state if you just don't do anything.

Absolutely. How do you help your colleagues, your employees when they're in a similar state? What's your advice as a leader there?

Um, well, you know, everyone is individual, but what I try to, you know, no matter what, if they come to me with a problem, I, I try, you know, not to go into their problem. Like, if they say, oh, this has happened, oh my God, what does happen? That is the worst thing that could have happened, blah blah. I don't go into the drama with them. I try to say, you know, I try to remember that, to breathe and say, you know, okay, this has happened. Let's now focus on how to solve this. And it's going to be okay. I don't know how it's going to be okay, but it will be okay.

And you've great advice again. So let's emphasize what you just said now. Um, when a colleague of yours as a leader, when you approach a colleague or a colleague approaches you and they have a life crisis, a situation, Human beings want to give that burden to the leader. Oh my God, this happened. Oh no, no, no, no, no. Don't focus on that. Focus on, okay, this happened. What are you gonna do about it? How do we make this a better situation? First, going through the whole story and I'm a victim type thing. That's powerful advice. We started off with COVID and we're all over with this. But this is, the advice you're giving is really, necessary because other leaders have the same problems, especially this one. You have colleagues, some colleagues are very, um, they take up a lot of room with their emotions and feelings. So that was great. So you're on a roll.

Yeah.

Let's look, but let's bring it back to, um, being a leader, COVID, dealing with, uh, laying people off who are actually family members, neighbors down the block and things like that. How did you, what is your company doing now? We are now in August of 2020. COVID started around March in Norway, something like that. How, what are you doing with Intech now? How, what are you doing to employees? How are you leading them out of COVID Or through COVID?

Yeah, I think, you know, we have gone from the survival stage to the living part because as you know, the COVID is not going anywhere. So we need to learn to live with it. And because I think the whole world were in this survivor state and that is not a good state. So the living part is, you know, we are picking up the projects, you know, the customers are, they have also started living again, partly. And so we are, we still have some that are on unpaid leave. But we see that, you know, especially here in Norway where there have been these stimulants from the government and we— I don't think we have— I think Norway doesn't have this especially mass fear. We are, you know, we are a bit like Many people live in the country, so we have a different way of looking at things, which is now a strength. So we are positive to the future and also see this as an opportunity because automation and robotization will be even more relevant now moving forward because we see that with our own country, we need to be more self-sufficient because, uh, you know, when the COVID-19 shut us down, you know, everyone was running to the store to get the Knäckebrot and toilet paper. And even though it's very hard, you know, just to not go into this mass fear because, you know, I went to the store and I was thinking, I'm a normal person. I can behave. I cannot, you know, I can just take the things that I need. But, you know, everyone else was filling up their carts. And, you know, at one point I was thinking, "I need to do this too." Yeah, exactly.

You get the virus, gets you, right? Yeah, I got it too. I was telling you before we started recording how last night I was in store with my wife and there was a young girl who kept on jumping away from us saying, "Keep your distance away. Keep your distance away." And fear has literally got a hold of her. But what you're saying is that where you guys are, your company is now, that you've gone beyond that. You're looking at opportunity. You're looking at what can we do now, right? You went through the fear, as you've been saying in all your examples, go through the fear and then come out the other side, which is what opportunities are there? Where can we go? Yeah. And you still have people who are laid off and it's not okay, but that's part of what's going through now. But you're— everything's growing, you got— things are gonna be great.

Yeah.

Yeah. Do you have any other, I mean, incredible words of wisdom that you've been dropping throughout this whole thing for other leaders who— and you brought up a good point, you're talking a lot about Norway, but a lot of people listening are in different countries and they're in massively different situations. What advice can you give them? And some of them are stuck, surrounded by fear as well.

Well, for me personally, I have been very— I think it's very important to not bring my fear onto others. By that I mean also my kids.

Oh.

Yeah, my kids, my husband, or my employees. It's very important not to bring my fears on them because we We individuals, we have all different fears and we get triggered in different ways. But it's like, you know, I'm a bit scared of lightning, thunder and lightning. So I have an example because when my children was a bit younger, I was alone with them and it started this thunder and lightning and they had gone to bed. I had put them to bed. It was like this awful thunder and lightning and they were sleeping through it. At one point, I was going to wake them up. Then I was asking myself, because I was scared, and then I was asking, "Why would you wake them up now?" Because I needed to be comforted.

Mommy needs a hug.

Wake up. Gone through with that, you know, wake them up and said, "I'm so scared about—" They would be from that day scared of lightning and thunder. Instead, I called my husband and said, "No, I'm a bit scared now." And he could say, you know, "It's going to be okay. And it will be over in 15 minutes." You know? Right.

You're a good mommy.

And you know, that's like a simple example. But it's, you know, you shouldn't bring your fear onto others. Yeah, that is another— Try to solve your own fear.

Thank you for that wonderful advice. I think we'll be coming back more. That was— this has been really good. Anita Hager, CEO of Intech Engineering at Ålfsnes, Norway. Very beautiful advice. Everybody come visit you, not just for the beauty of the nature, not just before the engineering, the company, But I think also spend some time with you to get some leadership advice. This has been fantastic. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for your time. Anita, thank you for your time. Thank you. And subscribe and listen to the podcast on Spotify, iTunes, we're everywhere. Until the next time, take care. Bye for now.