The Evolution of Accounting: Embracing Advisory Services

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Welcome to Profit first beyond the Book, a podcast that takes you beyond the book with Profit first brought to you by Tim Duncan and the rest of the Profit first professionals UK and Ireland. Hi and welcome to another episode of Profit first beyond the Book. And as mentioned in the intro, this is delivered by the Profit First UK and Ireland team. And I'm excited today to announce that Deb Halliday, one of our Profit first fessional members, is actually the host of this call because Deb's going to be interviewing me. So over to you, Deb, and welcome.

Hi, Tim, thanks for inviting me. Yeah, really excited to find out about your journey and yeah, really pleased that you asked me to interview you. That's really nice. Thank you.

You're welcome. You're welcome. It's going to be fun.

It's going to be fun. Yeah, it is. I'm grinning from ear to ear already, so we always have fun. So Tim, today is going to be about your journey and what a journey it's been has been from compliance right through to advisory to being the license holder or one of them for Profit first uk. And that's pretty further than, pretty much further than a lot of people have taken advisory to actually get the advis advisory license for Profit First. Start by walking us through your journey and running from compliance focused business to through to advisory. What sparked that shift for you?

Yeah, sure, it's. And, and you know what, when you say it like that, it's crazy, isn't it? You don't, you don't realize yourself. You just do what you do, don't you, and move up these steps and you don't actually realize until you set, sit back and think about, yeah, wow, it is, it's, it's a journey. But, but we're all on a journey and we all start somewhere. And I guess for me, I was the classic person that Mike wrote Profit first about. I was that business owner. So forget I was an accountant. I was a business owner running an accountancy business and I was completely stressed. My head was in my hands, literally at the financial side of my business. And it's embarrassing when you think about it, because you're an accountant and you're looking after all these cl. 250 clients, looking after them all. Yet in the background inside my head, I'm stressed and I'm trying to get work out the door from a compliance perspective to get the statutory accounts done, to get the tax returns done just so that I could bring enough money in to better pay everything I needed to Pay. And of course, as you know, you know, and as. As we all are aware of these things, when you then get to pay yourself at the end, it's never enough money and you have to go again. So there was just this cycle of fighting to get money in the door for it to go back out, to get it back in, for it to go back out. And it wasn't. I wasn't necessarily in control of what the money was being paid on. I knew where the money was going, but I just didn't have clarity on why it was going so fast and how I could organize the finances in a way to pay myself more money. So my thought process was to keep selling compliance and keep going and keep going and keep going and bringing in new clients. And the problem for me was all of my new clients were coming from my current clients, and I hadn't taught my current clients to be the right type of client. So they just came to me for compliance only. That's all they wanted. They wanted their tax returns done. You know, they wanted their limited company accounts. Then they just wanted the box ticked. They didn't really want anything else from me, but. But more than that, that's because they didn't know that I could offer anything else. And I think that's where the shift comes from, isn't it? Is recognizing actually we can offer a lot more than just that. Now we know compliance has to be done, but there has to be more than that to be able to serve our clients in a better way. So. So I started thinking, what else can I do? How can I change this situation? You know, I'm stuck, I'm stressed out. What can I do? So I started looking around for different ideas. I didn't really know what I was looking for, but I booked out Mondays in my calendar and stopped doing client work and tried to organize myself to be able to find different ways to attract different types of clients. So I was looking into a lot of marketing strategies at the time, and it wasn't really striking a chord with me, if I'm honest. So I still didn't really find what I was looking for. And I went for a coffee with a client, a current client at the time, Nick Hayward, and he just, out of the blue, just was talking about a meeting he'd been in, the Mastermind group, a meeting he'd gone to, and he mentioned a book called Profit first and said, I think you might enjoy the book. So off I went back to the office, Amazon. You know, Profit first comes in the post two or Three chapters in and suddenly it's that eureka moment, you know, the light bulb goes off in my head. This is it. This is what we're looking for. Oh my God. Why don't I think of this? All those kind of thoughts, isn't it? I'm sure you had the same Deb when you read it first. And, and so that was the moment that I thought, yeah, things can change here. So it started, that was kind of the starting point of the change for me. Did you want me to carry on Deb, or was that. I wasn't sure.

That's really interesting. This is, it's just, it's a journey that so many of us have, isn't it? So it must, I mean it resonates with me straight away. Must resonate with all the read all the listeners. So compliance is just seems to be the money coming in and the money coming out. So what did you, when you started interview into introducing if I put my teeth back in advisory with accountancy, what was it that you learned? You learned about those blended services? What made you start to have a, a realization that actually advisory was possibly the path that you wanted to go down?

Yeah, so I think so this is. Once I'm a profit first professional, this happens. So I didn't, I didn't really. Well, I offered advisory but I didn't know I was offering advisory. I think and that's the key thing. I answered lots of clients questions and didn't really compute in my mind that that was advisory. I just thought it was a customer service. I'm an accountant, they're asking me a question, I'll answer it. So once I was a profit first professional and I started to have the strategy as a profit first in my mind, then when you're dealing with your clients on a compliance point of view, you've actually got access to a lot of information about those clients, businesses and especially, you know, even if you only do an annual service to someone when you've just finished those accounts, you've got all that information to handle and you can provide them with so much knowledge. And I think what was happening before was it was that classic reactive conversation with the client that you know, you've made a profit. Well done. Client would say, don't understand where's the money? He would laugh nervously because you know damn well the money's been spent. But how do you explain that to a client who doesn't understand the difference between the accounting profit and the cash in the bank? And why should they understand the difference? And then of course, you've got a tax bill coming that they haven't saved up for. So I was having those conversations, and then suddenly you're looking at a set of accounts and you're thinking, okay, so if I did a profit assessment on this, if I look at where they're actually using the cash in their business now, I can have a more meaningful conversation with them. You know, I can see where the money's leaving the business, and quickly, I can see the different services or the different products they're selling, and I can say to them, which is the most profitable. And suddenly you're having the sort of conversation that you never dreamt possible. But actually, it's so obvious, the sort of conversations that you're having. But you just don't think that way because we're not trained that way. Accountants are trained and bookkeepers in many ways. We're trained to solve problems, and we just solve the problem in front of us at that point, or we're reactive to a question from a client. But actually being able to look at the accounts and from a proactive point of view, be able to look ahead and be able to help them forecast ahead, but from a cash perspective is so powerful. So I think combining the two works really well because you've got your hands on the information there right at that moment in time. If you're doing monthly bookkeeping, even more so, because, again, you're in the numbers, you know, if you're doing bookkeeping monthly, you know that client really well. You know exactly what's happening. But it's also easy to get caught up in the. Yeah, this cost goes there, that cost goes there. Boom, boom, boom. Reconcile. Non. Zero. Yeah. Okay, okay, okay. All saved. Because it's automatically going into the place you want to go into. Fantastic. And you don't necessarily give yourself time to think about what does that mean? We're just reconciling. But actually, when you step back and look at it with a different perspective and think, why are they paying that every month? What is that subscription for? What are they. What are they getting out of that? What's their return on that cost? As soon as you start asking those questions to your client, it's a different ball game. And suddenly your clients are looking at you through a different lens. They've looked at you before as that scary guy they just turn up to and get that dreaded information about the end of the year. God, I've got a tax bill. I really don't want to know. So you put it off and put it off and put it off. All of a sudden you're sat alongside them. And I had a. I had, in my office, my clients. A lot of my clients were local when I was back in this stage. And I had a big sofa and an armchair and a coffee table in my office. And I didn't used to sit at my desk when clients were coming around. They used to sit down, I would make them a coffee, we would sit down together and we sit on the sofa together and we'd have the paperwork in front of us and we would talk and it was such a relaxed environment and I was able to deliver more, more information than I ever thought possible, you know, from using the skills that we've got to produce numbers in a way to interpret it in a nice way for the clients.

It's funny, isn't it? It's. I think a lot of accountants and bookkeepers find that they have deadlines to hit, so they're just churning out the tax returns. They just. But so they're missing the time that they can spend really looking at the client's accounts and seeing why are they spending that, why are they only bringing in that amount, are they pricing properly? And I think a lot of the time, if you price so low, which compliance can be a race to the bottom, you can end up just having to hit the deadline. So you've got a multitude of tax returns, so you're stuck really, aren't you? Because you want to give that advice, but you haven't got the time or the bandwidth to be able to do that. So. And I think a lot of clients maybe get a bit disappointed with service that they're getting from accountants because they would really love to have that insight into their business, but they're not getting it because we've priced too low, because we need to just churn out the tax returns.

So it's chicken and egg, isn't it? Because accountants don't necessarily have a great name with a lot of businesses because of this. But, but the businesses price shop and try and drive your price down because they can get it cheaper at so and so around the corner. So it's that chicken and egg thing, isn't it? So you're, you're fighting bringing the clients in at a lower price and it ends up being a race to the bottom because you're, you're dropping your prices to bring them in. And if you don't drop your prices, which I would never do, by the way, don't drop your prices, please. I'm not saying I didn't back then. But if you don't drop your prices and you stand firm, the right customers will come to you. But of course, you know, add an advisory on top, which we know everybody talks about. But add an advisory on top does help you bring a better caliber of client in. So when you start having those meaningful conversations, you are viewed for a different lens. Like I said, you know, from the clients.

Yeah. So let's go back to when you read the book and you read the book Profit first and you found a light bulb moment, you implemented it into your business. How did you then become a Profit First Professional? And you met Duncan, your co licensee.

Yeah, I, I was, well, I was very naughty actually. So. So I don't know whether this is a thing when you're trying to grow and you're trying to find something that perhaps some of us, we just probably break through a few boundaries that perhaps we shouldn't do. But I was a little bit naughty because you're supposed to read the whole book before you apply to join Profit First Professionals and you have to claim or declare that you've read the book. So I'd read three or four chapters and maybe two or three. Anyway, I've got in my head, was in it light bulb. I might happen. I immediately went onto the website which is detailed in the book, as you know, proffersfessionals.com which is the US side, the worldwide site of Profit First Professionals. And I applied to join. Now I say I was naughty because you're supposed to tick the box, say you've read the book. So I ticked the box, read the book, thinking by the time I have to meet I'd have read the book. So a little bit naughty. But I did it. And in those days you had to pay a deposit to get on a call with Ron. And Ron is Mike's business partner with Profit First Professionals. So I paid the deposit. It was just wasn't cheap. It was a substantial amount of money. I think it was $1 less than the monthly subscription fee at that time. Got on the call with Ron. Ron explained that they didn't accept everybody and that they only wanted the right type of people to become a Profit First Professional. So I wanted it even more by that point. Anyway, fortunately for me, Ron saw something in me and he was, he was pleased to allow me to join the membership. I paid the extra dollar on the course, so I gave him my card details, paid the dollar, I was in and, and as soon as I was in I went straight into pfu. And started working on the certification. I couldn't wait. I could not wait to get stuck in. So I started working through everything, everything. And then I had a call with my guide, who was Liz, Liz Spawn. She's fantastically supportive, full of energy, answered all the questions that you had. And. And I implemented profit first, my own business, and such a step change in your life. So regardless of everything else I've done after this, actually implementing profit first in my business was massive for me. Overwhelming. You know, it hits you smack in the face where you're at from a cash point of view. And it can be quite frightening, but also it's enlightening because suddenly you think, okay, so this is where I've been going wrong. This is what I've been doing. Now I can change that. I've got a route out of this. And then when I worked on the rollout plan with Liz and we looked at different ideas and different sort of ways that I could move forward and start to build up my own profit account, start to pay myself more, etc. Etc. Reduce some of the cost costs. It was a route and it was a plan, a blueprint to follow. And then you start making allocations and it's. The world's a different place. You've suddenly got money in savings accounts and you're thinking, how, how's this happening? You know, I'm starting to build money up in a pot, you know, and. And it's. It is. It changes your life and it changes your whole outlook on the way that you're dealing with money. You know, fast forward now. I've got pots in my personal bank accounts and everything. You know, it's literally taken over my life of how I think about money and how I manage money in my business and in my personal life and how my family manage their businesses, you know, their finances as well. So implemented in my own business, started to work with some beta clients, which is the next stage. The most important thing about having to implement in your own business is living and breathing profit first. As you can tell from what I'm saying, that's what I do. I know you do as well, Deb, because I've worked closely with you. But living and breathing it in your own business helps you see the success that it can bring you, helps you overcome certain obstacles because there will be points of resistance that you'll build up against doing everything that you're supposed to do. And it helps you then realize how you can help your clients work through those obstacles themselves and those points of resistance. So that was that once I became certified, which was another couple of months down the line, I got put into an accountability group. Now there was four of us in this accountability group and we were meeting every month. It was, it was four members, so there was no guides involved. It was four members. And the idea was we just hold each other accountable for certain tasks that we were going to do in our business over a period of time. The other two dropped out for that for various reasons. And myself and Duncan Lloyd, who was joined the group at the same time as me, I think probably certified at the same time of me, hence why we were put in the group. We decided to carry on meeting. So we're both in the uk. Duncan's in Leeds, I'm in Bristol, we're on Zoom once a month. We're having a catch up. And we also used to join the UK monthly course that Ron used to host for the UK members that weren't very many UK members then, but we used to get on a call and of course we're fine, but after, after one of the, the calls, we had our accountability call straight after. And I can remember us talking about the call we just been on. And I think Duncan said something along the lines of, do you think that having people in the UK running this would be a better idea? With the knowledge of the UK tax system, knowledge of different industries, specific things that profit first in the book perhaps doesn't necessarily pick up on for the UK and Ireland? And so we were having this conversation. VAT came up, you know, paye, all these different sort of tax things. And then Duncan said, how do you feel about approaching Mike and Juan and us taking the license on? So it was Duncan's question and without hesitation I was like, yeah, let's do it, you know, because everything about profit first, it felt so right all the way through this process that it just felt right. This is obviously a period of time after I've become certified because these, these accountability meetings went on for a good year, maybe even a year and a half. So we built up quite a rapport with each other. And so, yeah, so then we, we approached Mike Amron. So we emailed them, we got on a Zoom call with them, we had the conversation about would this, you know, is this possible? We had a proposal. Duncan then went to profitcon in the US in the September and he sat down with Mike and Ron and it just kind of cemented the conversations we were having. And then we got on a Zoom call again and then we came to an agreement and we signed everything. And yeah, 1st of March 2022, we took over the license, the very first license holders. So like you said at the beginning, you don't realize how far you've come from that. Compliance only, you know, stressed out, head in hands, accountant, just trying to get through each week. You're not seeing any further than the end of the week and the Friday. Making sure that money is coming in to pay the bills, to being able to sit back now and guide our members on the same journey that I took is, is, is really, it's a wonderful role and I love what I do, but that's kind of the steps, some of the steps that happen. I know I've missed out quite a lot about the advisory offer that I put together and all that, but, but that's, that's, yeah, that's how I came to be with Duncan and how we came to take on profit professionals in the uk.

Well, the fact that you love what you do absolutely shines through. Tim, I'm very privileged to have monthly meetings with you as my mentor. Yes, absolutely shines through. And I want to thank you as well for, for joining me today, even though you've got pretty bad cough, so, so don't worry about that too much. So you decided with Duncan that you were going to take on the UK Profit First Professional's license. What was your joint vision for the membership, for how you were going to help accountants, bookkeepers, coaches on their journey from compliance to advisory? I take it, and what was the gap in the market that you thought that you could fill?

Yeah, I think the initial vision was to build the membership up full of accountants, bookkeepers and coaches that are looking to move away from the compliance world into advisory. That doesn't mean they have to ditch compliance, by the way. But, but that was kind of. Because it's what we did. Duncan is still doing it, by the way. So, so, so as you know, I sold the compliance side of my business often and I do this full time now. Duncan still has an accountancy business, Profit Genie, and he still offers advisory on top of all of the compliance work that his team deliver. So just to be clear on that. But, but I think we felt that we were getting success. We were also seeing our clients have success and I think it just gives you this overpowering feeling of wanting to share that with people. And I think the more people that can adapt the profit first principles in their business, regardless of what type of business they are, the better the business world will be and the more successful people be and the more easier Their life will be because running the business is tough, isn't it? You know, it's real tough place to put yourself. But we're also us people that run our own businesses. We're a different breed. You know, a lot of people, majority of people will go and work for people and they will be employees. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's the, the way they want to live their life. But us that decide we're going to stick our head out of the, out of that world and we're going to run our own business, we're going to employ people, we're going to do, you know, and, and we're going to build something special. We're slightly different, but because it's such a difficult thing to do and no one teaches you how to do these things, I just felt there's an opportunity here to help people. Let's get profit first in the UK and Ireland. Let's make it big. Let's make everybody know about it. And, and, and it's a kind of mission to, to spread the, the word, spread the gospel of profit first, if you want to call it that. And I think for me and Duncan, building the membership is, is key to that. So the more accountants, bookkeepers and coaches we can bring on as profit first professionals, the more profit first will filter down through their clients into their businesses. They will tell the people they know and then the more, the more and more it will grow. But, but of course it takes time and we're very, it's very important to us to have the right people be profit first professionals. So it's not right for everybody. So we look for a certain, certain type of, type of person, I guess. And as you know, we've set a quiz up for that so we'll talk about that a bit later on in the podcast. But that's to try and find the right people. You know, there's, there's a purpose with these things.

Do you, do you think that yourself and Duncan having had wide, varied, experienced accountancy background, accountancy practice background puts you in a unique position rather than coming from maybe a sales and marketing perspective. We find a lot of people. Well, myself advocate for finding your ideal client, your, your offering, your brand, etc. Which is all a sales and marketing aspect, but having actually run and built from scratch an accountancy practice in a particular area, which is compliance, making that transact transition, do you think that that allowed you, you and Duncan to have the confidence and the experience to be able to fill maybe a gap in the Market.

I think it's massive. Yeah, I think that is a, that is a massive step in itself. Moving from compliance into advisory is. It's a lot easier than what people think, but it's a very, it feels like a very big step initially. I think the fact that myself and Duncan have done it, I think the fact that we have, we were compliance accountants, we did tax returns like you said. Duncan in Leeds, me and Bristol, completely different businesses, but we found a way to deliver advisory that works. And we know it works because the result for me was I sold my accountancy business off and I moved into coaching and then license holder of Profit First Professionals. Duncan's business is just soaring like this as we watch. It's just going up and up and up. And because we've done it, because we've made those steps into advisory and we've delivered these advisory sessions where we've helped our clients become more profitable. We know the steps that people need to make to do the same thing. So the certification program, and then it's after the certification program, Profit first professions where people start to follow the steps that we took and we've tried to break it down even more now into real small, simple steps so that they just have to do one action to move forward. And yeah, without doubt. So selling advisory from a marketing point of view is one thing, but being able to say to people, look, you're an accountant, bookkeeper, you're a coach. We can help you move into advisory because we've done it, you know, we have actually done it. We've got the, we've got the, the history and the experience to, to demonstrate to you. We've got the client success stories to share and I think it's really important. You know what, why would you, you can't expect someone to do something you've never done yourself. You know, I go back to, back to a thing when, you know, when I was younger and I worked in an office for a business and the boss used to come around and expect me to change the light bulbs all the time. Of course I did it because I'm not, you know, I was told to do it, so I did it. But it used to kind of grumble when you did it because you think, why am I having to do that? He never does it. Now, I know that's. There's a respect thing and, you know, he was the boss and he was older, you know, in traditional times. But I always think to myself, how can you tell someone to do something if you haven't done it? Yourself. So there's a, there's a, there's a step process, isn't there? So because we have walked that walk, we know, I think it really makes a difference and I think for our members, they resonate with the situation that we find ourselves in and where they're in when they join us. You know, we've, we've had, whenever I talk about this, there's, there is one member I think of. I'm not going to name them because it would be unfair, but when they did their profit assessment, it was a real emotional conversation and there were tears, not just from them, by the way, because they were upset. It got me because it, it means a lot to me to help people. But by the end of that call, they were feeling so much better like, like me when I did mine. And they felt so much better already. They had a way forward and that this person now is, is working with some Profit first clients and delivering advisory sessions that they didn't think they would be able to do at that stage. So, you know, it's really important to be able to validate what you've done and be able to share that with people, you know. So I don't think there's many people in this space right now that can actually say hand on heart that they have transitioned a business themselves from compliance only into compliance plus advisory and then from compliance advisory only. So no compliance advisory. So there's, there's certain steps. Not everybody wants to take all of the steps that I've taken, but some people might just want to add advisory on top of compliance. And that's fine because compliance brings the bread and butter of your business in, it brings your recurring income in, it gives you peace of mind that you've got this money coming in. But, but add an advisory on top is what we call the cream on top of the cake. And it's where you can earn a bit more money from holding strategy sessions and from talking to your clients and guiding them into higher profitability and profit first. And being a profit first professional gives you all those tools that you need because we drip feed it to you, we hand it to you on the plate. And your evidence of this. Deb, I know I'm going to be interviewing you at a later date on a podcast and you your evidence of this because you followed the process and look what you've achieved.

Yeah, I mean a lot of people might think that to be a profit first professional is just to learn the profit first methodology and how to implement that into their clients, businesses. But the membership of Profit First Professionals is so much more than that. It's the mentorship to actually transition your business to offer advisory and how you do that and the steps that you have to take and the skills that you have to learn rather than just delivering bad news or good news at the end of the tax return season. So, yeah, I think that's really enlightening, Tim, that you, it's, it's really valuable for people to understand your journey and that that's what you're offering in the membership. You know, that, that whole transition, not just learn Profit first and the, the specifics of, of Profit first depending on the industry or the clients that you're using. But that whole transition for your business is so valuable and I can't think of anybody else that's offering it that's actually walked the walk. Yeah, and, and the members are still doing it and, and the, and the guides and the licensees are still actually offering advisory and very successfully. So. Yeah, that's wonderful. So what would be. You mentioned a quiz. So you don't take everybody. They have to be the right fit and they have to be at the right stage. Do you want to explain that or is there anything else that you want to go over beforehand?

Yep. So the quiz. No, let's put, I put the quiz up there. So the link, the link is. Should be showing on the screen now. So it's profit first challenge.scoreapp.com good old score up. And Daniel Priestley, a good friend of ours from, from our last two years profitcon events. Yeah, we've put a quiz up because we want the right people to become Profit First Professionals. Now, if you're an accountant and a bookkeeper or a coach that's got a financial background, I would suggest you, you're in a pretty good place and you're the type of people we're looking for. If you're looking to move into advisory because, you know, the world's changing, you know, AI is coming in, automation's already here, AI is already here. Let's be fair. You know, things are going to change that are going to help us complete the compliance work a lot quicker, which hopefully is going to free up time to then be able to add those advisory strategies in to your offer for your clients and you can be more proactive, deliver more value. If you deliver more value, your client's going to love you, they're going to pay you more money, you know, simple. So to find out if you're the right type of person to join Profit first professionals take 60 seconds to answer eight questions. We know it takes 60 seconds because we've had a few people do it and it's the average that's coming up on Score app that it's 60 seconds to complete the quiz. So eight simple questions. Answer them, you'll get. You'll get a result that tells you where you're at in respect of becoming a Profit first professional. If you get really high marks, you'll be invited to book a call with me and we'll have a conversation. If you're sort of in the middle, then you'll get the opportunity to join our wait list, which, which you can get from our website. So let me just share that one as well. So here's our website, profit first uk.co.uk There's a wait list there that you can hit. You fill out a small form with a little bit of information, nothing personal, and you and you join our wait list and I'll probably reach out to you in a certain time. And then if you get the lowest score, all is not lost. And it might just mean you don't know a lot about Profit first right now. So what we have is a free community for you to join. It was originally called Crossing the coffee, but it's CrossFit's coffee and profit First. It's a Facebook group. You're welcome to join it. We have monthly online sessions that are free to come and join and we just deliver conversations like this. We talk about Profit first, we talk about helping clients, we talk about moving from compliance to advisory. So if you're interested in joining that group, there's, there's your opportunity to do that there as well. So I think I've got all my plugs in there. I think I did that really well.

You did that really well, Tim. Yeah. Round of applause for that one. That was great.

We're still learning with this software.

That was fantastic. Tim. It was a real pleasure to, to listen to your journey and be invited to. To interview you or ask the questions on the host of Profit first podcast. Is there anything else you'd like to finish with.

Last, Last thoughts? And I mean this in all sincerity, if I can do it, honestly, anyone can, because I never thought I would be able to record myself and put it on Facebook. You know, that was a major step in itself back five, six years ago. Now I'm. We're doing a podcast. You know, things will change if you can just push yourself a little bit outside of that comfort zone. It's amazing what you can make happen. You've. If you're watching this, I know you're running your account at C Bookkeeping or coaching business. Fantastic. You've done brilliant to be running your own business and that's not meant in any way patronizing. By the way, I warmly congratulate you, anyone who runs their own business. I think it's amazing. You're making a difference in the world and you could make a further impact on your clients if you start to think about and create incorporating things like Profit first as an advisory offer to your clients. It's what we're told from our members is it's a game changer, it's life changing and it's certainly changed my life. So, yeah, if I can do it, anyone can take the quiz, see what happens, see how you get on and up. Great to have a chat, you know. You know me, Deb, I love chatting to accounts at Bookkeepers anyway. I chat to them all the time. I'm always, always enjoying those chats and I'm more than willing to share anything about Profit first that anyone wants to know. It's my favorite business topic, so, yeah, I love it.

Brilliant.

Thanks, Deb. Thank you for hosting and for asking me such difficult questions, by the way. I had to really think, I thought this is going to be easy. We're just going to come on, have a chat and then you're asking me quite a bold question. So thank you very much for being prepared. Yeah, thank you. Thanks, Deb. See you soon.

See you soon.

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