Creating a Peer Advisory Model for Larger Mid-Market Companies with Mark Janowski

Hello and welcome to Mastermind Mastery, the podcast for professionals who want to create and run successful peer advisory councils, or as we call them, PACs for short, or they're also known as peer groups or business mastermind groups. I'm your host, Tina Corner Stolz, founder of Elixir Council, where I've been in the industry running groups since 2005 and now help those like you with education, certification, and support wanting to do the same. At one time, I ran 10 groups, nearly 100 members, and sold my groups For a Good Multiple and recently released my second book, Your Seat at the Table: How to Create and Run Your Own Peer Advisory Councils, published by Forbes, and grateful to you that it's an Amazon bestseller. I invite you to join each week where we share strategies and techniques to successfully launch and become a master of running your PACs. You'll hear insights, perspectives, dos and don'ts, learn from my and my guests' mistakes, successes, and get the inside track to key takeaways. Each time we have a guest, we'll be having a bit of fun. So are you ready? Let's get going and dive into today's episode. Hello everyone, it's Tina here. We have a special event coming up in November in St. Petersburg, Florida. It's the first ever national open conference for anyone wanting to run and already running peer groups or mastermind groups. Join us for 2 days, VIP reception with the keynote speakers, and a full day of upping your game and running groups with peers like you who are experienced or just want to get more knowledge before starting their journey and creating their first group. This conference is for you if: 1. You're already running groups and you want to be better, or you want to be the best. You want to learn from other experienced moderators and get inside tips to the latest meeting techniques. Or two, if you're thinking about creating and running groups and want all the knowledge on how to do it right and learn from veterans, then this conference is for you. But time's running out. There's only a few VIP tickets available and the conference has limited capacity. So as soon as we hit it, we're going to have to close registration. So join us in downtown St. Pete, November 9th through the 11th. It's the best self-development gift you can give yourself. And don't you want to be the best at running groups? See you in November.

Okay. Welcome, everybody, to Mastermind Mastery. I'm Tina Corner Stolz, and guest today is Mark Jankowski out of the wonderful city of Baltimore, Maryland, close to where I lived so many years. And so Mark is CEO of ACE CEO Peer Advisory Groups. Been doing it for 10 years, and I'm going to let him tell you about the type of groups he leads. But before we go there and our topic today, obviously we opened it up with Beautiful Day by U2. So how does this song have meaning to you, Mark?

When my son was born, you know, 25+ years ago, this song was really reminiscent of me, of what I hoped for his future. And, uh, you know, it talks about stuck in traffic and losing friends, but just to remember that it's a beautiful day and really being present and in the moment despite the things that happen to you. Um, player that, um, I knew very well, Kirby Puckett, baseball player, got, um, an eye disease, glaucoma, that could have been prevented, and he ended his career. Ended up being a Hall of Famer. Um, but he said something. He said, it doesn't matter what happens to you, only how you react to it. So ever since my son was young, I've really tried to portray that no matter what day it is, it's a beautiful day. And I remember just swinging him around and holding his arms and swinging him in a circle, singing that song. So many years have passed, but that song takes me right back to those moments. So that's about the best song I could listen to.

Excellent. Well, and you said something in your explanation about being present, right? And it's a beautiful day and it has so much to do with being present when somebody is participating in their peer group meeting, right? So today we're going to talk a little bit about kind of one of your specialties, which is why I was excited to have you as a guest on the show, which is when you're doing a group made up of larger midsize companies, right?

Yes.

Kind of how do you structure a little bit about the meeting relevant to that? And I know we're going to probably spend a little time on I know the difference of like, do you, do you not? What are the nuances of size of companies together in a group? Right. So before we get started, why don't you tell a little bit about what are the types of groups you do today? And you've been doing it for 10 years. What prompted you to start to do this and to do the type of groups that you are doing?

Started off as a lawyer way back when. Hated it. Too entrepreneurial to be stuck in that framework. So I started a company that did negotiations training. and wrote a couple books on the topic. And for about 15 years ran that company. I've been fortunate. I've taught on 6 continents. Um, we scaled it to about $5 million with 15 employees. Nice, you know, business. Sold it. Um, and when I was running that business, I was part of a CEO group. And sometimes when the facilitator couldn't make it, I'd take over and facilitate. So when I sold my business, I decided I wanted to, you know, be a facilitator and start my own group. So that's what I did. That's how I got into it. Um, and, um, being a member in a group before running a group was a huge benefit because I could see the world from the CEO eyes. And, um, I started my group about 10 years ago, and I began to run into the situation that I recall being a member of a group and having a mix of big companies and small companies. And when you had the billion-dollar company with 3,000 employees listening to the same complaint that a 6-person company whose brother and sister couldn't get along in ownership, it just didn't resonate. And so I really had to make the decision in my groups, how did I want to structure them? And so we made the decision— again, I talked to my group members— that we were going to just have groups and members in the group. The minimum would be 100 employees and $20 million up in revenue. And we've formed the group like that. It's produced benefits, maybe some drawbacks. And Tina, we can talk about those. But the structure of 100+ company, 100+ person companies have really opened up a lot of opportunities that have been created. Incredible, incredible value add for our members.

Great. Well, why don't we start with like when you have by definition probably for our audience, we should probably talk about what does a smaller company mean and a larger company mean. But, you know, you just talked about your experience where both were in a group. So how about a little bit of what was that experience like? Because it obviously influenced you, right, in the future. So first of all, a little bit of like small definition, large definition, and then, you know, what was your experience and what did you learn from that? And then we could talk about the nuances.

Now we talk about small. There's a breaking point in most companies. Yeah, the entrepreneur can no longer run the company as an individual and they really need a management team. Now we've arbitrarily picked the number 100 employees. Do I know, you know, do I have people in the company with 75 employees but a solid management team or willingness to put a solid management team in place? Sure, we'd take that person. Um, would we take a 10-person company? No. What we're really looking for in terms of, you know, a company that I think is important is that they're either in the process of putting a management team together or they have a management team in place. One of the biggest challenges is it's so hard for that entrepreneurial leader to put a management team together. And so what would happen a lot of times in our meetings when I was part that had smaller companies in it, And the person who was the entrepreneur, you know, would complain a lot. Oh, I'm overwhelmed. I can't get things done. You know, my people can't get things done. And they were really caught in a very difficult trap, and that was the inability to delegate and put a leadership team together. And they had reached the point where they no longer could lead the team through the force of their own personality. And the challenge when people are in that sort of whirlpool, so to speak, is that it's the same issue over and over and over again. And that was a big challenge because it was always sort of the reason they couldn't, you know, take it to the next level is they couldn't put that management team together. So that's why I sort of look at as sort of what a large company and a small company is, you know, use a number of 100 employees and pick it out of the air. Really what I'm talking about is a company that has a management team in place and companies that don't have management teams in place and probably won't get there. That's what I would call our dividing line.

Yes.

And so are there any other, like, nuances or kind of what I would call not positive experiences happen when you do have that mix?

One thing I saw happen, um, was sometimes some of the bigger companies, um, would not show, right? And so you'd have people that would say, well, you know, do I really feel like taking advice from that person? Not really. I'm not going to show. And then you'd have the entrepreneurs who are so involved in their business, have a fire burning that day, and then not show up. And now you're having, you know, an attendance issue, right? And, you know, we ran across that, you know, significantly. Now, again, I'm not trying to say no group should ever have big and small because they can both benefit each other. And some, some groups can have all small. We've just chosen one path and there's a lot of value add to choosing this path that we'll talk about that makes it more difficult when you have a mixed group. And so even when I decided to firmly plant a flag into the 100+ people and leadership team model, I had to ask some members that were founding members for me to leave the group because I couldn't provide the value to their organizations that didn't have the leadership team that I could provide the value to other groups that did have that team. And once there was a clear dividing line of value delivered, it just made sense to stick with the larger company model.

Right. So speak of that in regards to what do you think are the real upsides to your larger organizations being with larger organizations or a mixture?

Yeah, you know, there's so many. Let me just start with the following. The way we are organized is we have quarterly themes. So for instance, this year our first quarter was on lean. The second quarter was on execution. The third quarter was on attract and retain employees. The fourth quarter is on innovation. So we have quarterly themes because one of the complaints typically is, you know, oh, you know, every time you go to one of these meetings, you come back to the office and all you have these new ideas and we can't get them executed, you know, the day after the meeting.

Idea of the day. Yeah. Yep.

So we break it into—

And the management team always hates when you go to these meetings because you're going to come back and disrupt like the focus. Exactly. Yep.

So we solve that by co-opting the management team. So the first month of every quarter, we have the management team or some team from the company, whether it's the management team or some other team, attend with the CEO. And now that you have the CEO and the management team in the room, what happens is you end up getting someone on the management team that says, hey boss, you know what we should do? We should do X, Y, or Z. And then the CEO can sit there and go, fantastic idea, how do you want to execute it? So rather than the CEO taking the information, interpreting it the way they want to, trying to relay the message, the management team's already in the room and they're getting the benefit directly. So what happens? First thing that happens is the message that's communicated from the speaker is communicated clearly to the management team, not through the CEO filter. Secondly, some people from the management team automatically take responsibility of whatever the next step might be.

Right.

And the third thing is, and people lose sight of this, sometimes just spending, you know, a few hours with the CEO in a learning environment is of value in and of itself. And what our CEOs sometimes have done is reached below the, you know, top-level management team into other layers. And they found that the people went home afterwards and told their spouses, you won't know what happened today. I sat with my CEO and it was fantastic. I mean, even without the benefit of the topic, without the benefit of action plans, the immediate value is your employees feel good and see you as dedicating a day a month to nothing but learning.

Mm-hmm.

It's sending that clear message. I am a continual learner. I commit my time to learning and it inspires other people to do the same. Same incredible value by having that. And if we had people that had smaller companies that couldn't bring their management team, they'd be sitting at a table alone, right? And that just doesn't work. I couldn't deliver value to that person because I couldn't put the management team in the room, right?

And so they only come and stay for that portion of the meeting.

Exactly right. CEO-only portion in the morning. We'll have the speaker And what happens, we'll do a speaker typically for rather than the full 3 hours, let's say, we'll hold the speaker to 2 hours and then it's an hour of the manager with their management team having discussions. And what's ironic is even sometimes we, I went to the CEO afterwards and I said, so did you apply the ideas? And the CEO said, look, you know, not every speaker you bring in applies to my business. But it was great just sitting with my management team for an hour. That was helpful. So there's value there.

Sure.

And we really believe that, you know, the other thing that we've delivered of value is we try to mix and match the management team. So if there's marketing people in the room, we try to get the marketing people within the marketing group that we might create. We created an HR just ad hoc during COVID We created an HR, you know, cohort and CFO cohort.

Yeah.

So the additional— I believe the value in CEO groups is creating community.

Mm-hmm.

And so our goal is to create community, not just of the CEOs, but also of the people in their leadership team so they can connect with other people.

Yes.

The CEOs know the value of that connection. And so they understand when we can say, oh, we just had a marketer speak. Any company in here doing, you know, customer experience journeys? Someone goes, yeah, we just did one. And you can say, okay, this company, this company, and this company want to learn more about it. How about you guys set up a lunch and get together? And that's all that's needed.

Yes.

And you've added value to the CEO.

Right. And that, you know, something you just said, customer experience journey. If you had a small company in that group, many times there's discussions and they're like, I don't even know what you're talking about. So that could be one too. They're like, what are you talking about? I need to know that. And then that would slow down, right? The whole concept because they're their experience and their understanding of certain business concepts that only come about when you're at a certain stage, right, of the business. And if they're too far away from stages, maybe it's they shouldn't do the customer experience journey yet because that, that wouldn't be the right thing for the business to do. But if they hear about it again, it's another idea, it can derail them. But it will cause this conversation where now there's a lot of education down all the time, not occasionally, right? So when you— is there ever an exception when it makes sense that someone in the group that maybe doesn't have, right, that same number level employees, or maybe that management team, is there ever an exception to the rule? That you can think of, or no?

There's two. Um, one is the following: we will bring in a smaller company if, A, they bring in expertise that will benefit everyone else in the group, right? And exactly like you said, they have the business savvy that they can sit in the room with these folks and provide value. So we have a company that's an M&A organization and they're a smaller company. They might have 30 people. You know, they don't really have a typical leadership structure because they have a partner that runs each department. So it's a little bit different, but they can, you know, bring a lot of savvy to the group. What I've done with those folks is on those quarterly meetings, if they don't bring their leadership team, I say bring some of your clients or some of your prospects. It's still value. Right, still value, just a different way. Um, I'm so obsessed with providing value that it's like if I— I'll look for ways to do it. The second exception is if someone really is seriously committed to growth and they are looking to put that team together, and I think that they have the personality, uh, to do so, right?

The capability.

Right, exactly.

You know, so if I look at somebody who's run a larger company and now is running a smaller company but has plans to grow the company, okay, fine, you're in. I get it. You'll be there within 3 years. We're going, um, so, you know, and again, I love, love entrepreneurs, uh, I love— and one thing, it's ironic, and I think it's important to mention if I can, I try in my group to get a balance of entrepreneurs and what I call hired guns. And the hired guns are more of the classically trained leaders. Yep. Um, who either come up through the company or gone to business school and things like that. Um, along with the entrepreneurs that started the company in their basement. Now, I was a little worried when I put the group together like that. It kind of just honestly organically formed like that. It wasn't an intentional thing initially. I was a little worried, like, oh, you know, how are these people going to interact? And it's been phenomenal because there the entrepreneurs learn from the sort of classically trained people how to do trailing 12s and put together a strategy plan. So they get a huge amount of benefit. The concern is, are these classically trained folks going to be sort of able to learn from the gunslingers?

Right.

What we found out is the gunslingers inspire those folks immensely, those gunslingers. And, and, and the entrepreneurs are saying, I do this and I do that. A lot of the, the folks that were sort of the, the classically trained said, you know what, throw away the textbook, let's make this stuff happen, and got more aggressive and more focused. So it ended up being a nice mix that worked, you know, that's worked really well for us. It's hard to maintain because it can get out of balance with members joining or members, you know, If someone leaves because they've sold their company, but it's a focus I keep my eye on.

Sure. Well, you know, and I think of the, you know, there's sometimes you're a serial entrepreneur and maybe now this new business that they're starting, they're still kind of in startup mode, but their whole experience is about, you know, they grow and they can create a very mature, successful, large organization. Now they're doing this and they can bring new inspiration, right? Into a group. And to your point, they're capable and they're going to get there and they have been there. So they might not be there today, but they still deserve that seat at the table because they'd be bored if they were in a different group, you know? Right.

It's hard because we sort of delineate large and small and we sort of delineate under 100. And it's an improper delineation. You got to take a stand somewhere.

I totally agree with you. Yes. I hate it when everybody goes, I base everything on revenue. It's like, no, you can't do that. Yeah.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I base it primarily on A, structure of the organization, and B, mindset.

Yes.

So if someone's got a large organization but wants to hold on to all control and won't build a leadership team, it's really not that interesting. If someone has a small organization but has the growth mindset and, you know, can show that they can play, you know, with significant, you know, uh, players in the game, so to speak, bring them in. But no, I wouldn't do it on revenue, particularly revenue, because that can— you know, I had somebody show up and they were a brokerage or, you know, team, and they threw up, you know, $100 million of revenue with 8 people. It was irrelevant.

It's exactly right. Yes. So I know you and I could talk on that probably a long time. So as we wrap up, Is there anything else you want to share concept-wise about the topic of like larger organizations working together and the nuances of that and why versus mixing in a smaller knot?

You know, the benefit— I mean, I just think that being obsessive about delivering value and finding organizations that can benefit from the value Here's the point I want to drive. It's about retention to a large extent, and it's about additional revenue for facilitators. It's about additional revenue opportunities because, you know, right now we all know this. You build a trusted relationship and suddenly I'm running board meetings, strategy sessions, you know, and all of those types of things, negotiations, training for those clients, all generating additional revenue. For the entrepreneurs that are running smaller businesses, one thing I've discovered is for my hired guns, they're spending budget. For the entrepreneurs, they're spending their own money.

Yeah.

And every time you meet with them, every meeting they go to, they're sitting there thinking, am I getting my money's worth? Am I getting my money's worth? Am I getting my money's worth? Am I getting my money's worth? Um, and a lot of times they're not as focused because of that. And they tend to churn more, right? Like, I'm gonna spend this money this year. Whereas now the beauty of it is— and we try to be about 25 to 30% above market in our pricing— and when you go to a larger company, when I'm not just serving the CEO but I'm serving the entire leadership team, and we spread the cost, and I just simply say, what would it cost you to hold 4 seminars that you could bring your entire leadership team to? Cost you about $1,000 a person for basically doing that one thing pays the entire value. And they can go back and they can sell it to corporate saying, oh, this isn't just about training me. This is a leadership development program. So I just think that's a secret.

And alignment. It gets everybody aligned. Yeah, right.

You got it. You got it.

Well, as we wrap up, and this always goes so fast. Is what piece of advice would you give our listeners today that you feel is just something that really has stuck out to you in your journey over the last 10 years that would be helpful, particularly to someone who's just starting out running groups?

Yeah, I think that the one thing for me is, you know, I had a CEO once say to me, I said, why do you pick me as a coach? You know, why would you have me in here? And he said, you're really smart and you really care. And I said, isn't that the price of entry? And he said, you know, Mark, it's tough sometimes to find people who are really smart and who really care. And so the only thing I wanna sort of add out there is if I'd say, you know, what's my one piece of advice? I think constantly demonstrate how much you care is as much as constantly demonstrating how smart you are.

Yes.

And many times we tend to lead with smart. Let me show you how smart I am as a coach. You should do this and you should do that. And honestly, smart's important. You gotta have it. Care is probably more important. And I would, you know, my CEOs, when I would ask 'em, I'd say, you know, what would you say about me if you were to tell somebody else? You know, if you were to tell somebody else, here's why you should engage Mark. And they would say, he'll run through walls for you.

Mm-hmm.

He cares that much. He'll run through walls for you. And I would just say that, you know, that's the missing piece, I think, sometimes. And I was missing it in the beginning too. I thought it was all about how smart I was until they started saying it's about how much you care. So I think, you know, leading as much with care as with smarts, I think, is a really important thing, particularly for new people getting into the game, because they think it's all about the smarts. It's as much about the care.

It is. It's probably more so, right? Because you're supposed to be moderating. You're not participating like a member.

Exactly.

Right. Absolutely. So great advice and insight on that. And thank you so much for being the guest. Good topic. And if anyone wants to reach Mark, website, first of all, is ACE, A-C-E, right? Mark, why don't you give it? It's acegroups.co.

Group.co.

Co. Everybody make that note. Co. Okay.

Wonderful.

Well, Mark, thanks again, and thanks to all of our listeners today on a great topic about, you know, whether mixing small, mid-sized groups together, but also what it means to those larger companies participating in a group and what they need in order to drive value. Okay, so everybody have a great day and go make it happen.

Hey, moderators of groups, thank you so much for listening to today's podcast. To get access to today's show notes and exclusive content and resources, visit TinaCornerStolz.com/podcast or LXcounsel.com, where you can also become part of an exclusive online community, attend our academy, or get free resources, templates, checklists, and more. And you can even contact me there as well. So if this episode resonated with you and you know someone who you can also benefit from listening, please share with them by taking a screenshot and even posting on your social media. I also love reviews and appreciate hearing from each of you, those actually doing this wonderful work. Please tune in next week for another episode of Mastermind Mastery. And I'll close by sharing something my mentor did after every learning moment. He shared a shiny pebble from his pocket with anyone he passed knowledge to. And asked them to forward that pebble knowledge on. So now I encourage you to go pass on a pebble, the takeaways you learned today, to either your existing groups or fellow peers. Now go make it a great one.