Episode 14: Navigating the Current Beat of the Music Industry with CD Baby President Molly Neuman

Welcome to Season 2 of The Entertainment Business Podcast. I'm your host, Tisha Morris. Join me as we go into the business of entertainment, publishing, music, and all things creative. We'll get inspirational interviews, informative trends, and practical tips. And with that, let's get on with the show. Hello and welcome to today's episode. This is your host, Tisha Morris, and I'm so excited about today's episode. You're in for real treat as I welcome my guest today. We're going to be talking about music, which is one of my favorite topics, and I have as my guest one of the top music professionals in the industry, Molly Newman. She is the president of CD Baby, which is owned by Downtown Music, the leading music distribution company dedicated to empowering independent artists. As the president, Molly is leading the leading strategy and management of Downtown Music, which serves millions of artists Every Day. She was previous to that the CMO of Downtown Music Holdings. She was president of Downtown's Songtrust, and before that she was head of music at Kickstarter and held several senior roles in licensing and digital music as well as label and artist management. There's nothing Molly has not done in music. In fact, she got her start as a drummer in Bratmobile, a punk band. So she comes to this work very honestly, and she has since won the International Woman of the Year at at the 2024 Music Week Awards and has been recognized by Billboard for several years. Please help me welcome Molly Newman.

Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Thanks so much for taking out time. I know you're super busy. And I first just wanted to just acknowledge all the people in LA that are suffering through the fire, fires who've lost their home, and also to musicians, music artists, and those obviously in the music business side of things have been greatly affected, similar to the entertainment industry. And just a real shout out to the music industry for stepping up in the ways that it has.

I agree. I mean, it's incredible to see the generosity across every segment of life and the world right now. But certainly the music community jumping into action and the spreadsheet, the simplest idea can be the most powerful. And, you know, I know the person who started that spreadsheet doesn't want to get attention for it, so I won't name her, but she knows who she is if she happens to hear this, and I know who she is. And I think it's a really important thing to remember that, especially in this extremely confusing time in history, that simple, clear acts of organizing and direct support can still yield great results. So that's one thing that I think was, you know, extremely inspiring. But it is very difficult to observe the amount of destruction. And, you know, I don't know one person in Los Angeles, certainly at our company, We have members of our team who lost their homes and are in really stressful situations. And that's true of everyone in LA right now. But it's also an economy and an environment in Los Angeles where so many people depend on things like events and like gathering. What this is going to mean, not just in these early weeks, but like for the next year and years as we rebuild and people recover, as, you know, hopefully we can. Yeah.

Well, I'm excited for the Fire Aid benefit concert.

I tried to get tickets. I was way too late in the queue and the price— I was priced out, but I will enjoy it from the livestream.

Well, if you didn't get tickets, then I know I have no chance. So I want to, um, I want to say you've been— you've had so many amazing accolades over the last few years, one being awarded the International Woman of the Year, lots of Billboard recognitions. But I want to take it back a bit to the beginning of the Bratmobile days.

Yes.

So you were— you were— were and maybe still are. We'll talk about that.

Drummer. Yeah, punk rock band.

I want to hear how that experience has kind of informed or colored your, your role now as a music executive.

It, it, it's so interesting because I think I was proudly, you know, disconnected from the quote unquote industry when I was starting my band. I mean, it was from a punk scene. Going to shows that cost, you know, less than $5, playing shows that cost less than $5 for a long time. But it was, you know, being part of a community where you saw artists start labels to release music from their friends and the impact that that would have and sort of how, how those, you know, connection points of you know, an album or a single, sort of the archival unit of the scene, documenting the scene, was so critical to, you know, the inspiration and, you know, all of the other bands that would, you know, form from those ideas or those examples. You know, I was lucky enough to start working at a record company in 1994 and work through the sort of high-growth years of the music industry driven by CDs and new genres being mainstream like punk and indie music, alternative music. And then obviously the sort of decline, rapid decline at the end of the '90s around sort of accelerated by file sharing, not the result of file sharing. I think, you know, that's sort of my take on it. But I think all of those things have contributed to, you know, being in a place over these 30 years of a career. And now with a sort of real, you know, another moment of transformation that we are experiencing and nobody really knows what it's going to mean and how it's going to shake out. Exactly. But, you know, there are lessons to learn. And I think the one thing that really— to more succinctly hopefully answer your question— that guides me is that there is true power in music and in community. And more than ever, I think people crave that kind of context for what they're discovering, because the discovery piece, as you'll read in the music business headlines is really difficult, right? So much music.

Yeah.

The channels for, you know, for finding something in this sort of sea of all this different stuff. I'm not, I'm not of the school of thought that thinks the volume means that it's bad. I just, I think the volume can mean that there's probably, and we know this to be true, there's incredible stuff in there, but it is harder to discover it, and it's harder to connect that to a sustainable career as a musician or songwriter or any of the sort of, you know, more creative roles in the industry. And I think that is something that's resetting itself and certainly guiding the work that is my main responsibility right now, leading CD Baby and our, you know, direct-to-creator business at Downtown. And What is that? You know, what are the right things to decide right now that hopefully will set us up to be part of that future? The CD Baby's been around for 27 years, so that's a pretty incredible fact. And there's a potential for our business to sort of reorient itself as we go through this transition and, and hopefully, you know, be something that's really valuable for these new generations of musicians and songwriters. But that's the work to do right now. That's— and there's no— I don't have that answer how we're going to do it.

Yeah. Well, for folks who maybe aren't completely familiar with CD Baby, they are the leader of independent artist distribution. You can— I'll let you tell us more about CD Baby and its role in the music industry currently?

Sure. Yeah, I mean, it, like I said, it's a company that started in 1998, was an e-commerce platform for musicians to sell CDs literally to their fans and have sort of a platform environment where you could buy multiple artists but directly support them. So the The concept is, is very, you know, logical, and it was really beneficial because, you know, distribution and access to retail, especially when it was, you know, a few independent stores, a bunch of chain stores, and then, you know, maybe some mall experience, or, you know, like in the '90s when I was running our label, we would have to be in Best Buy for Or you would aspire to be in Best Buy for your top releases because that was where, you know, your— the volume buyer would be. And then you would go, you know, like if you kind of equivalent down to like the Amoeba or those sorts of stores in various markets, and then you're sort of specifically, you know, like in San Francisco, Aquarius was like where you would find electronic music and really, you know, much more specific genres that, you know, even Amoeba wouldn't carry. But they had a huge, you know, people would go there for new release, uh, Tuesday or whatever, um, all the time just to see what had come in, especially imports and stuff like that. And, um, so all that to say, independent artists who were maybe more local but wanted that availability to people who were like, oh, maybe I'll check this out. It's a good price. And it's a, you know, maybe if I hear a snippet, I'll take a chance on it. That was what our platform was sort of founded on and then was in position to present that music while iTunes was, you know, being launched. And they wanted, you know, obviously all of the major repertoire and the major indies, but they, they were open to independent artists who were smaller and had more of a you know, self-managed audience. And then obviously as Spotify and other streaming services have grown, they too wanted all of this music. And so that's how our business grew and adapted. And then, you know, people, other platforms in this space like DistroKid and TuneCore, and there's a number of others, some who have maybe more of a genre-specific focus or other differentiators, you know, that are like kind of, you know, make it less, you know, maybe speak to a certain kind of artist differently. Whereas CD Baby, I think, has grown in a pretty broad way. And I think that's one of the things that we're trying to understand, like as things have changed now, the volume of releases is so much more significant. Finding an audience is so much more difficult. And, you know, if you read the music industry news, you know that, you know, certain platforms are like, have changed their royalty model based on the number of streams that are earned. And, you know, I mean, I think all of these things, they can, you can sort of pound your fist and like say this is unfair. And I don't think it's not unfair necessarily, but What— it's not probably the best path for solving the problem, which is, you know, how do we connect more people to the music? How do we help artists be stronger in their independence and in their, you know, ability to manage their careers and have the right level of service? Because, you know, there's a whole category of artists who, like, is likely very happy to just have it available. It's not their career or their livelihood exactly. Yeah, but they love making music, they love releasing music, they love the fact that it's available. And then you have a sort of different category of, you know, much more serious and much more expecting of, you know, almost business tools. Yeah, almost like a, a TurboTax kind of environment for their— to manage their careers because it's not that much money, but they have to be compliant. They have to handle things in a professional way. And because I used to run Songtrust, which is the independent songwriter and publisher platform that Downtown owns, which is much more of a business product than a creative tool, because if you're, you know, collecting global music publishing royalties and administrating them is really not very creative. That's a very— right— fractional part of the industry. It is, you know, looking at what— how many musicians and songwriters need that product? How many need what we do? How can we look at the future more thinking about the customer and the client and the artist? And that's— I've been in this job, I guess, about since June, so 7-ish months. And so I think we're headed for some decisions around what that means. You know, I've been learning a lot over that time.

Yeah. You know, so I come from the kind of the book publishing world as an author and know a lot about that industry. And I see such a direct parallel with both. And now I also see it coming into the film, film industry as well, where, where there's so many opportunities. And CD Baby gives that for, for music, of releasing and distributing your music. For authors, it's their books. For filmmakers, it's their films with new distribution models coming, coming online. And, and like you mentioned in the beginning, discoverability being the relax factor. And I think you've probably spoken about this But I see this very much as well of every artist or creative having to be their own brand. And yeah, so is that kind of what you see is not a solution but a necessity?

Well, I mean, I think certainly yes, in a way, but I don't think— I mean, there's no one definition of what that means exactly, to be a brand.

Yeah, no, I use it very loosely.

No, no, no, I think you're right. And I mean, I mean that by— I'm agreeing with you, and I also feel like that makes it even harder because brand association or recognition gives you a shortcut to what you're trying to do, right? To what you're trying to find. And coming from the independent label world, so, like, I mean, that's how I came up, and I was the president for a time of the American Association of Independent Music, the labels trade association. I have a lot of appreciation for that work that labels do to sort of create that context, the brand, whether it's sort of like as in a genre style or a regional style or any other kind of like high-level. Okay, I get it. I get that if I go to, you know, this record company, in this town. It might not all sound the same. Let's hope it doesn't. We'll have enough of some quality that connects it, that gives me a confidence that this is going to be worth my time. And now it's like, it's not about even the spend. It's not worth my $10 or $15 to buy it. It's worth my time to listen to it, to curate my collection accordingly and grow it, and then maybe hopefully go to a show if any of those bands are bands and are fortunate enough to, you know, have the ability to play live. And so I see a lot of value in those community-based connections that give us and give music fans some kind of like sense of trust that they're going to be in the right place or listening to the right thing. And then there's like, yeah, That makes it harder for what we do at CD Baby, because we're just sort of like, you know, there's— it's, it's much more agnostic in its context, and you know, and like how it's presented. We, we're kind of— we're that business partner to get you to building your audience and making your case and hopefully growing. You know, I think that there's a lot of scenarios that we hope to support around, you know, artists that are, you know, that use our platform. Finding ways to, through the tools that we offer and the, and the systems, you know, kind of connect more. But yeah, I mean, the, the other thing that I'm not thinking about, or at least in this context, is like the fact that, yeah, the, the other platforms that exist, social media and user-generated content sites, where you can brand yourself and own that in a way that doesn't require a label. And we see examples in all directions of this being successful and this being really, really hard. And I don't think hard is ever the prohibitor. I don't think that most of us, if we have kids or no kids, it's hard. Hard things are good or whatever.

We can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things, but, um, you know, how hard and at what expectation? Back to the— is this a livelihood? Is it a career? Is it something that is just gives you joy? And as long as you're not being ripped off, um, you know, that's a whole other angle of argument around the current, you know, digital music landscape that I, you know, I understand that position and that critique. But I also think, you know, knowing, as I've had to, you know, learn much more in roles where I am responsible for large platforms and maintenance and, you know, sort of maintaining an infrastructure around all of this music, that that's not necessarily cheap or easy. And, you know, you can do it, I think, in a way that maybe is a little bit more elegant than some of the larger platforms, you know, that sometimes look like they're, you know, like, why, why, why are you doing that? But, but, you know, at the same time, that works out in their, you know, in their planning. And so, you know, I just— this is a tricky time, I think, for the industry.

Well, I find from, from some of my music clients, and I feel like every music artist's dream is to be signed by a label. Kind of describe for us the difference in the indie artist path versus the record label path, and if those roads are starting to kind of converge.

Well, I think, I think, you know, there's certainly historically that was the only option, right? You know, you to get to sign to a label. Or to be selected by, you know, a very, um, you know, specific criteria defined by one person perhaps, or two. And, you know, what the characteristics of those people are pretty consistent, quote unquote, if you, if you know what I mean. Um, and so those choices will be consistent with either what they think are hits or what they know or whatever it is. And but now that's not a requirement for distribution. It's not a requirement. We do have examples of incredible self-released artists who maintain their own infrastructure, who maintain and own all their own rights. And that's the distinction now, right? That historically, yes, you had to sign to a label almost exclusively. There's a few examples of that not being the case. But, um, But mostly you did. And then that has shifted now to where major artists don't really sign. They work out great business terms with the same partners that they would have had as a label, but they have more leverage in terms of, you know, rights, main, you know, maintaining their own decision structure. You know, they have all and It's not a perpetual license, or it was never— in those most cases, it wasn't a perpetual license, it was just in perpetuity, forever, right? And then, you know, I think people kind of shifted and, okay, well, let's do a long-term license. And then, you know, now we see shorter-term licenses and the authority being in the hands of the creative part of the industry instead of gatekeepers whose credentials you could probably argue are right place, right time. Who knows? Right. And I think that's part of the reset that we're in right now as well, sort of power shift. And it can go lots of different ways. So I think that's a really interesting moment that we're experiencing.

Yeah, so this kind of inflection point that we're at right now, how influential do you see AI being a part of it?

Yeah, I mean, I wish I had a— I'm sure my peers have very, very, you know, thoroughly prepared responses on the topic. I don't. I, you know, like most people now, are using AI. If I didn't know I was using it in the past, I know explicitly that, you know, I'm intentionally using it out, find, oh, is there a way that I could do what I do all the time more quickly? And it's basically the same quality that I want my name on. Um, I, as a creative, as a musician, have not explored those angles. Um, I know many, many artists are, and doing it with a lot of passion and, and feeling and, and, you know, creative results. So I don't want to say that there's no need for it, but I'm a drummer and I'm a guitar player at a second level. I'm merely a keyboard player. I play electric guitar, but drums are acoustic, right? They're just what you can do with your body into the instrument. It is a, it's an evolution for me to think about all of the ways that you would accelerate that creativity. You know, it's just not my personal experience, but I certainly know that that doesn't mean it's not happening or that it's very valuable or interesting or that incredible music will be created. Now, full-on generative AI based on models of music of human creators, I think, is a different— like, that's a little bit more of a stretch for me to wrap my head around, like, why I would want to listen to that. In a, in a, like, I want to find this new artist, but I also understand that that may, may be, like, around the corner, and I just have to get there, like most technology development and application in our lives. And so it'll be interesting to see how we do that in a way that is Certainly when models are used based on human creativity, that those are fair and compensated and protect the original source and doesn't, you know, completely erase the human capability and value. Like, that's, that's got to be all of our, our, you know, mission. Um, and I think that's where most of our industry is working right now to make sure that we're protecting things appropriately.

Yeah. And the desire for the human rock star, I don't think will ever go away. And the one that you can go see in person, that's definitely having the live experiences, you know, at the pub or at the big venue. Um, they're always going to be— well, who knows?

I won't say always, but in my lifetime, in LA, there's a, there's a club that just celebrated— I can't remember if it was 25 or 27 years, like if they were being cute and celebrated 27 years or something, but it's called The Smell and it's in downtown. And it's a, you know, it literally does. Um, you know, you walk in and you're like, oh, but not all the time. Like you kind of get through a point, like, like someone just peed there. And, um, And now I'm in the inside and safe. But I took my 10-year-old to, um, the, to a show recently there. And it, because it was their anniversary and I was, you know, their cool bands were playing and it was, it's fun. And it is still like a community that you, you know, I saw within 5 seconds like a bunch of people I knew that it's great to give hugs to. And, you know, have fun. She didn't really want to hang for the whole thing, and she was very reasonable. But, you know, I'm hoping that, you know, we all keep our sense about ourselves and realize that those, you know, spaces and that time of, you know, human connectivity and, you know, supporting artists and their performance. And, you know, like in my band, she is the— our singer is just— there is no environment where she thrives more than on stage. It's just like a completely different reality and is so charismatic and so entertaining and so much enjoyment that you've like— you just can't conceive of an alternative to that. It's not like we're the hugest, most huge band either. It's just that when that happens, and you know that that's true for so many artists, that the performer is really special and valuable. And I hope that that is something that we can find ways to protect that possibility. We all know about how expensive concert tickets are and all of the— what young people now, the superstars they want to see, it's not just the $600 ticket, it's $300 worth of merchandise and maybe a train, a plane ticket and hotel and yeah, et cetera, et cetera. So you're looking at $3,000 all of a sudden. Like that is not, that, that should not be it for what young people know about, you know, live experience. Yeah.

Well, there's still that, you know, going to the, the local place down the street and kind of that artist discovery and, You know, getting the signature on the t-shirt. I mean, I think that's still very, very much alive. And I think—

I hope so. I think it— but I think we have to work at that.

Yeah. It's not easy for the— yeah.

Artists and companies and the whole ecosystem need to work at supporting that. And it starts with, you know, reminding people who have kids or who have teenagers who, you know, and creating safe spaces for them. A lot of my— my community growing up in music came from DIY musicians and DIY clubs and peer-run all-ages spaces. And, you know, I don't know that you get too many of those examples anymore.

So I guess so. I grew up in Nashville, so I, I have a little bit biased or lucky perhaps in having those experiences.

Yeah.

And, uh, but yeah, not, not all cities are like that for sure, where there's somebody playing at every restaurant, bar in town.

Right. Yeah.

Nashville's unique. Yes, for sure. Um, so I, speaking of, of the, uh, discoverability and bands, so your, your, um, your band Bratmobile, that was that, did you start that in your 20s, I'm guessing, or?

Yeah, like, I mean, maybe technically I was still 19 or 18, but like, yeah, like in college. Yeah.

So if you were, um, little, little question for you, what would you, in today's world, what would you tell your 19-year-old drummer self?

So it's a really great question. If I was starting out in the environment that we are in now, and because we were really passionate about connecting with other women musicians and women artists and, and women who were recording music or doing live sound or tour managing like that, finding them and kind of giving visibility and shining a light on them was sort of the parallel task for us. We were, um, you know, we were in a band, but we were also writing a fanzine and we were kind of trying to sort of just cross-pollinate as in any way we possibly could. Um, So I think if I was, you know, a marketer, as I ended up becoming, I suppose that I would think, okay, well, how can I capture this, you know, this connection into something that can help us make our own, you know, protect the revenue that we're generating, you know, and give it, you know, make sure that we are, you know, using that to do more of what we want and that there were more women artists and women in charge of things. And sort of, you know, when you think about the, you know, if you look at the historic numbers of like who's been at the top of the charts or who's been the top of the charts as producers or songwriters, engineers, et cetera, like where all the economy around music is concentrated, it's still very, very inequitable and not distributed well. And I would probably, yeah, try to make sure that as much of that that I could protect with, with good counsel from, you know, an attorney here or there or whatever it was going to be, or the right distribution company or platform that kind of helped me protect that autonomy but was able to, you know, kind of build our own infrastructure. That's what I would do. And I think You know, you see artists now with, especially with strong managers who are helping their clients build up this sort of more autonomous, you know, business structure and maintain their own rights and hopefully benefit from what they're, you know, generating and earning in a way that's a little bit more balanced. I don't think that there's anything wrong with the fact that the top pop stars of the universe that you think of that come to mind right now are women. Some of them are billionaires. Some of them are their economies and countries of their own. Right. I like to see more of that in a way, and to have these things be a little bit more equally, equally distributed, but, um, you know, that's still challenging.

Yeah. So basically it's creating your own business, thinking of it as a business and having the people around you that can support that business in a, with, you know, in good business sense and integrity. And then, you know, it's also while being the creative side of yourself as well.

And, and, you know, I mean, I think that's, that's the tension point, right? Is the most of. The reason you start to make music, say, for, you know, there's lots of examples, but, but is not necessarily to be rich, you know. And I think that's good. That should not be one's primary motivation. But I think being savvy and being thoughtful about how you are in charge of your business so that you're kind of maximizing things— to not just your own benefit. I think that there's, you know, like, like, we know that each artist is its own little pod of, you know, whether it's tour manager or, you know, crew or merchandise, obviously all the travel costs and, and, you know, business management. And there's, you know, there's so many people that are part of that unit. And it's, I think it's, it's wonderful to see more more artists be successful on their own terms, men or women, any, any gender.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of the creative and the business, your life really, your career has really like emulated that. Do you, do you still, do you still have time to, to be the creative?

In, in, in Certain limited ways.

Yeah.

So last 2 years we've, we've played a bunch of shows. Um, 2 years ago we played our first show in 20 years, and then last year we played maybe like 8 altogether. And, you know, went to the East Coast and did some shows on the West Coast as well. And we'll see if we can pull that off this year. It's nice because it's, it does keep me connected to, you know, oh, there's responsibilities. I have to make sure 1099s are, you know, filed. And, um, you know, that we are filing our taxes. And paying things properly. And I guess it's on my own. A wise person recently said to me, well, you never want to build a product for your own use case. But, you know, it does give me a little bit of that empathy for the experience that artists have.

Right.

You know, we're fortunate enough that we, you know, there are people who are interested in, in, you know, in coming to the show. So there's something to manage. Um, it's not, it's not a full-time gig, which is fine. It's like, it does totally give us joy. And, you know, at this point in our lives, you know, it's, it's, I think, wonderful to be able to find a new era to perform and to, you know, yeah, play loud drums. Like, that's the best thing ever, right? The drums are really annoying as a— because they're, they're They're bulky. If you prefer to play your own, which most of us do, you're hauling them around. And so all of the things, I'll eat my words. I'm like, oh, all this work to play for 45 minutes. And then come back to, oh, when can we play our next show?

I know if you've lived in LA for any time, you've inevitably lived near a drummer.

You can hear them practicing.

Yeah.

And that's me now. That's me.

Everyone has their windows open. Well, thank you so much, Molly, for enlightening us with so much of your experience and knowledge. Before we leave, what are you excited about? I mean, this year has gotten off to a very rocky start, but not with Sandy.

What are you looking forward to this year? I'm excited about all the things that we were talking about, the fact that this is a point of of transition and transformation. And that's not easy. That's not fun necessarily. But I think it— I feel excited about the fact that I'm in the middle of it and I can help. You know, I don't think I have all the answers for what the, you know, the best thing. I'm not trying to be, you know, solve the world's problems and certainly not all the problems of the music industry. But I think there's a space now to be more open to, you know, the fact that certain parts of the power center have shifted, that artists have a lot more leverage in their careers, and that the industry is trying to figure out how to respond to that. And then we have technology, you know, accelerating so quickly. And we're all doing our best to keep up. And so I think, I think it's just an important time to be open and adapt, but also, you know, try to have your values in check so you know why you're doing what you're doing. And you know that there's still work to do and improvements to be made in certain areas. So those are all— I mean, yeah, it's daunting and sometimes it's exhausting. But it's also, I think it can, I'm trying to find the fun and the energy in it too.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, music is the most important thing to my life and, uh, and we need it now more than ever.

Yeah.

Um, yeah. So, uh, CD Baby, uh, for if you're an artist or a budding artist or seasoned artist, check out CD Baby and all that they have to offer. It's an amazing distribution platform and offers so much. Um, at such great prices and affordability and such a great entrance.

I agree.

Industry. So thank you so much, Molly. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you like the podcast, please like, subscribe, maybe even share to your friends. And for more information about my services, visit my website at tishamorris.com. That's T-I-S-H-A M-O-R-R-I-S. Well, that concludes today's episode, and I wish you all the best. Until next time, keep creating, and please take care.