Become Outstanding with Vicki Fish

Foreign. All right, I want to talk with you about a very special marketer that impacts lives for people that you know and that you love and you rely on. You see, I think there are marketers out there that are very talented and they're marketing things like other a beverage or breakfast sausage or maybe even lotion. And all of those things are important, but nothing is more important than making sure your mom or your aunt or your sister can live longer. That's the impact that a life science marketer has on the people that surround you. Because a very talented life science marketer, yeah, could do beverages. But what they chose to devote their career to is marketing something to a physician that will help save a life of somebody you love and at the same time be skilled enough to market also to a patient so they're aware of these breakthroughs. And I love people who've invested their life into helping people like my wife. You see, my guest, Vicki Fish, is the vice president of skin cancer marketing for Castle Biosciences. And before that, she was at Myriad Genetics and helped them market to physicians about BRCA1 and BRCA2, which is the genetic mutation that would notify a patient if they have the hereditary breast cancer or ovarian cancer. My wife, when she went through breast cancer, the first thing we did was take the test that Vicki and her company at Myriad worked on. And she was there for 22 years. And it gave us the peace of mind that when my wife had her mastectomies, she wasn't going to need to have her ovaries removed and have a mastectomy at the same time. These are marketers that change lives, and I'm honored to get to spend time with Vicki. But first, a word from our sponsors. This podcast is brought to you by the Wire Buzz team. Now, if that name sounds familiar, it's because I've spe spent the past decade growing wirebuzz into a digital marketing powerhouse designed to maximize clarity in complex sales processes so we can help accelerate revenue. And we do this in three phases. Phase one, we transform your website to function like your best salesperson and then also incorporate persuasive on demand sales videos. Now, your entire team is aligned on messaging, and they're injecting massive clarity into your prospect's head. So your site looks great, but it also has engaging content that helps your team sell on demand 24. 7. The next phase. Phase two, we train your sales and marketing teams to sell remotely or in person to expand the impact of your sales team. And the third phase is we develop and run targeted ads to your prospects. Scale those ads to help you achieve more business results. Sign up for the Wirebuzz Company newsletter to learn more about effective and simple ways to improve your company messaging, attract more digital attention, and ultimately make more sales. Vicki, thanks for joining me on the Toddcast.

So excited to be here, Vicki.

I'm like fired up, you know, I, you and I had an opportunity to do a little pre interview conversation which always makes this so much easier. And as I was talking with you about your career, there are like key moments in your career where you've been able to use it to springboard you forward. Have you ever needed to make a lateral move or ultimately like a lateral move to ultimately work your way upward? Did a lateral move have to come in?

Yeah, no, that's a great question. I have actually. And I think it goes counter to what you know as, as you're going through all of your, you know, professional coaching, development, reading, all the things that you learn that, you know, some of the, the tips you're taught is if it's not upwards, if it's not an x percent of a raise, then you shouldn't take it. Right. It's not a promotion. However, there comes times and, and this is when I was at Myriad Genetics. I had been in a position for too long. It had morphed over the years. It was, you know, it morphed from just being, you know, sales operations to encompassing everything from operations to training to commercial ops to our digital marketing. It just got all of the things under the umbrella, kept getting put under this kind of generic commercial ops position, which was great. But it got to a point where I was an inch deep and a mile wide. And it was great to learn so much, but I realized that I didn't truly own any one of those things. And to really be able to hang my hat on something and be able to have that opportunity to, to be accountable and responsible for numbers, if you will, I needed to make a move. And so I had an opportunity to take, at the time I was the director of Commercial operations. And so there was another director level position that had opened up in sales and marketing for a lung cancer prognostic test. And so as hard as it was to, because I think I kept waiting to get that promotion to vice president in my current role. And so I took some time to step back and say, okay, is that even what I want? I thought in my head I wanted that title, but I wasn't quite sure I wanted that title in that role. And so with great coaching from some of my mentors at the time. And I think now we hear it a lot more with things like the book Lean in or some of the other coaching tools that are out there, saying your career is a jungle gym, it's not a ladder. And so realizing at that point in time that I needed to make that move over to sales and marketing, to really own that own a product specifically versus all the products and really show that I had what it took to succeed.

Now, Vicki, you've been in a bunch of different positions, you've worn a lot of different hats. Now this is what I want the audience to be looking for. It's like Vicki started off with a genetic counseling degree, right? So I want you to be thinking about this. I started off talking about a lateral move because she really was trained with a genetic counseling degree. But she's made moves throughout her career so she could do more and serve more. But that ultimately means that she ended up having to learn new tricks all the time, which makes Vicki, correct me if I'm wrong, super hungry as a learner. Where did this come from?

That is true. In fact, I do have. My background is in genetics and genetic counseling and subsequently went to business school to get my business degree just so I could kind of round out that knowledge. I went straight from graduate school to working in industry with that degree. And so I started out, for those of you that are familiar with pharma companies or biotech companies, they often have kind of a science arm that supports sales. And so that's what I started out doing at Myriad Genetics. And what I realized is it was really helpful to have my knowledge, to be able to teach, you know, teach the salespeople as well as their customers to really get to that point where, you know, you, you felt like you. There were no more questions left, it was a no brainer to order our products, etc. But that hunger, so I'm not quite answering your question, that hunger actually came from really just a need for personal growth. Personal growth and continuing to just better myself. I just really enjoy learning and I feel stagnant when I'm not. And I think that kind of ties back to that last question, which was that lateral move. I kind of got to the point where I was in this pit of just hanging out and going through the motions because I'd done it for 13 years and realizing that in order to spark that fire again, I needed to learn something new. Now granted, in biotech you're always. It's like it, right? You're always learning new things, but it was a total shift in, you know, my strategic focus and execution. And it just really, I think, invigorates me to be able to continue learning.

Yeah, no doubt. Okay, now you're at Casel, and by the way, for those that don't know about Casel Bioscience, they're a leading diagnostic company, and they're focused really on transforming disease management, which is super exciting to me. Like, patients benefit from the information that Casel's diagnostic tests provide, and providers or clinicians who use the test to guide. They use these tests to get to guide disease management. And what's super interesting, Vicki, is like, you've had multiple roles at different companies, but when you arrive, you've got to learn all this new information, not only about their diagnostic test, but often about the new disease state that you're serving. Which means, do you get the. Does the intimidation when you come into a new topic pop up? Because I'm sure there's a lot of people that have just gotten so comfortable in their career, and comfort is the enemy of growth. But in order for you to take on a new opportunity, a new responsibility to grow and to serve more people, how do you get out of that mindset of the intimidation and just embrace it?

No, I think for me, I just immerse myself in knowledge. Like, I read the manuscripts. I mean, it's as much of a learning to Todd on the disease states died as it is the politics of the culture. Right. I mean, there's the whole picture.

Yes.

So, I mean, fortunately, there's the standard training programs that exist that, you know, you're served up from the organization, which is great, but I think that's just to get you in the door. I think if you really want to get to the point where you feel like, you know, the information you have to get in front of the customer. You have to see what the customer wants to know and what really matters to them. And I think that the things that tend to resonate most with me or stick with me the most is when I don't know the answer and when I'm asked a question and then I have to go look it up. And you never forget when you don't know the answer, right?

Yeah.

So. So to me, never forget that. Yeah, you don't, because you're like, oh, I was so embarrassed. I was in front of this, you know, oncologist who wanted to know, you know, these. These different Kaplan Meier curve rates, and.

I didn't know them.

So you go back and you read the paper and you say, okay, and why did he want to know that or why did she want to know that? Because that then brings some context around why you need to know. And I think that really helps too. And that's why I feel like, you know, there's the baseline knowledge just to get you in front of a customer, and then once you get in front of that customer or key opinion leader, understanding what matters to them and getting something wrong so that you have to go back and really, you know, look it up and understand why they wanted to know it.

So naturally, you've had a lot of reports over the years, people that report to you and you've got to mentor them and get the best out of them. I was, I heard Tony Robbins explain to me one day that good isn't good enough to keep your job. Like, if good isn't good at your job, in order to keep it to grow and enough to make progress in the organization, you've got to be outstanding. And so, like, when you're mentoring somebody, how do you give them that mindset that just showing up, that just punching in and doing the work, the minimum passing by isn't enough? And what they're actually required to do is be so outstanding that they open up their wings and soar and people take notice. And that's how they go. Even from a lateral move, they can go up into an organization. I mean, am I accurate on this?

Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. I think, you know, as you mentioned, I have had more than two dozen reports, maybe three dozen reports over the years. And I would find that those folks who show up, punch the clock, do their job, go home, would get super frustrated when into the year time would come around, reviews, merit, increase promotions, and they weren't getting the promotions and they didn't understand why. And so having that conversation around, well, you're hired to do a job and you're doing the job you were hired to do. And thank you very much, I appreciate it. But if you want to get ahead, if you want to progress, if you want to spread those wings and be outstanding, you have to do what you're not paid to do, right? You have to show your value in another way. Think outside the box. Put your hand in the air when somebody asks who wants to be lead on this project offer, you know, think about problems that can be solved. So I think it's just, and I hate to say, like, doing your job isn't a bad thing, but it is just enough, right? It's getting by. So if you do want to progress. I do think that really being outstanding, you have to take on extra projects and really think about the organization as a whole, or at least your small functional group and how you can make it better and help your peers.

Yeah, yeah, that's a, it's really, it's really tricky. Look what inspires you? Like, there's a lot of people that work inside of life sciences and when I talk to them, what I really discover is that each of us have some fuel or somebody that we've been touched by that is that we're like working for. What is it for you?

So originally I spent 22 plus years in breast ovarian cancer, colon cancer. I have a family history of breast cancer. Getting too detailed, my ethnicity. I'm Ashkenazi Jewish. My mom is Jewish. My mom said breast cancer. Her mom had breast cancer, her aunts had breast cancer. Right when I was finishing graduate school and without telling you how old I am, the breast cancer genes were just being discovered. The prior to that, most of the genetic counseling jobs were in prenatal care. So a lot of it was, you know, advanced maternal age, working with obgyns and really talking to pregnant women about their risks of pregnancy and their spouse or significant other. And so when I was finishing graduate school, that was my thought. I'm going to go into prenatal care. And I really enjoy helping patients. But when I learned that the breast cancer genes were being discovered and they were looking to hire somebody with my skill set, it was a no brainer really being able to work in a space. And you know, the way I think about it is when you're sitting with a patient and you're talking to one person, that's great. You get to impact maybe 8 to 10 patients a day as a genetic counselor. But going into industry and thinking about being able to educate physicians, doing grand rounds, doing tumor boards and really speaking about the impact of genetic testing, you could help millions of patients. And so it was a really cool shift in my mindset because it was a pretty unique opportunity. At the time, industry was kind of a black mark on your name. Going from clinical to industry, I think there's always that thought that you're one of the dark side, you're coming up with them, they must be sneaky, something must be going on. But it's really, I found it to be just the opposite. Most of the commercial companies I've worked for have been way above line and really held the bar really high ethically and scientifically to make sure that the data that's going out is significant.

It's really intriguing to me because I would never be involved in life sciences and biotech and biomed. If I got a whiff of some of the rumors that I hear people say. Right. And I know that in my. Yeah. And in my, like, 15 years or so being in life sciences, I. I would be the first person to bail. And I've never gotten a whiff of something other than really sweet, genuine people that get up every day that want to inspire and want to lift up other people's lives. And there's something that you just said that I think can lift up a lot of people's lives, and it has to do with when you are walking through a hospital with a physician and you're getting the repetition with the physician to talk about genetic testing. Back in the day, when you got started, or today, when you start at Casel and you want to go in, go out in the field and meet clients, those are, like the crucial moments for you to be able to learn what's happening on the street and then take that information back. And the people that make a regular habit of this seem to be the ones that have the best feel for what their customer base is demanding, and they seem to be the innovators that can bring those ideas to market. Have you seen this also?

Absolutely. In fact, I just am home from six days in Vegas, which I don't recommend to anyone, by the way.

I'm good for maybe 36 hours, and then, like, somebody's got to get me out of here. This place is crazy.

Yeah, no, it's too much, but very productive. And so I was at a conference with 1400 dermatologists, you know, in PPAs and really in it with our customers. Right. And we had a couple of ad boards, we had a couple of product theaters, and getting to hear what they had to say. Now, my team right now is responsible for the content that's going up, you know, in the slides and getting to hear the questions from even different subspecialties of dermatology and realizing that some of them don't want to see the science. They just want to know what. What's in it for me? How does this impact my patients? But then you have another subset more. The Mohs surgeons, those who are, you know, doing more of the cutting of squamous cell cancer, they want to know.

That's what I've got in the center of my nose procedure, is that they.

Want the data, they want to know. They want the Kaplan Meier curves, they Want to know hazard ratios. They want, you know, they want the deep dive. And I'm not saying none of the dermatologists do, but, you know, dermatologists seeing a lot more patients, you know, in a row and want to know the quick down and dirty, how is this going to help me? And then they'll dig into the data, but at these, you know, 30 minute advisory boards or product theaters, they want to know right now, right fast. And I think for me and my team, we tend to put way too much data and we don't get to the point. So by the time we get to the point, they're done. So it's great learning. Taking that back and really being able to incorporate that is huge.

One of the things that I'm obsessed with, that my agency is obsessed with because they've inherited my obsessions, is clarity. Like, our primary job is not increase confusion, but to eliminate confusion and add clarity, which often means keeping things really simple. And if people want more information, they can ask for it. But you've got to get that knowledge into their brain. But it's funny because the closer we get to all of our work, the closer I am to my speaking material, the more complicated it becomes. And the same is probably true with Vicki's material because you start to understand all the nuance wrinkles and you appreciate them so much that you want to add that into the story is that you see that.

Absolutely. And I think the other piece of this is what we just spoke about, which is there is at least this underlying anxiety that there is a concern about industry. Right. So you try and show. No, no, it's legit. We have the data, we've done the studies. And so you're like putting more and more of that in there to maybe overcome that. They might not believe you because you're industry and not an academic center. And so. But I think you're right. I think that once you get to a point, you know, we have, you know, almost 40 published manuscripts on it. We've got, you know, 10 plus years of the product being on the market. We've got top clinicians ordering this test. You don't need to do all of that now. Right now you're kind of at a different place in the life cycle of the product. You can get to that clarity. Tell me what, and then I'll ask you, you know, the details later.

Right, right. And sometimes for marketers in particular, our jobs are to use brevity. Right? We got to use brevity. And that's a difficult trick. And I want to talk with you about using these brief moments, people that are listening right now that are trying to get next level into their career. Like, while you were going through and getting established in your career, was it helpful for you, Vicki, to model yourself after someone that you admired? Or are you more likely to find a compilation of behaviors or traits, leadership styles that you adopted from multiple people? Like, what is your Vicki tapestry? Like, if you had to, like, dissect how you created yourself, are you modeling somebody or are you taking pieces from people?

So yes and yes. Right. I'm modeling lots of somebody's and exactly that. I think through my years I've been fortunate to have really amazing bosses, and maybe fortunate, if you will, to have some not so amazing fortunate that you learn what not to do and picked and chosen, I guess, different of those traits to really integrate. And you know what I find, and a little bit maybe is my personal preference of how to be treated and how to interact with people. But I think first and foremost is authenticity. And I feel like if you're not authentic, nobody hears, which at least I don't. I can tell when somebody's blowing smoke.

Right.

Like, I need to know what you really mean.

So for me, you mean you've got a smoke detector.

Yeah. So to me, that's huge. And I think along with that comes honesty and integrity. So those are traits that I've picked up along the way. I think it's really, you know, honesty, integrity, really define that character. Right. Of an individual. And I think with that comes ethics and trust and respect. And so I think that, to me, that's why that that's really important. I think another really important one for me is empathy. Everybody has something going on that you don't know. I think I like to believe that everybody's doing the best they can at the moment. And if you really have that opportunity to have a conversation not in front of a thousand people or ten people, but after the meeting, before the meeting, hey, you seem a little disconnected. What's going on? Instead of assuming that they don't care. So I think to me that that's really important. And we already talked about growth, continuous learning, growth and development, not just personally, but for my team. So I always try and, you know, have that conversation when I either start a new role or somebody new comes to my team. Like, what? Where do you want to be? Where do you want to go and try and help them? And then just kind of my last two. And the reason I'm kind of sharing this with you Is just recently I had the fortunate opportunity to lay this out. If you'll put together this quilt that you're mentioning of what I see of as my core values and my personal lifestyle. And it was a really cool exercise. So my last two are health and vitality. I feel like if you don't feel good personally, you're not going to feel good at work. And I think during these Covid years, we've learned how I like to say that sitting is the new smoking. We all sit so much, and you got to get out and move. I don't mind having a phone call with my team while they're taking a walk. I think you can sometimes get more done. If there's other things they need for their health, whether it's time with their family, whether it's, you know, you know, time just away from the job, I get it because I truly feel that if you have the other things I mentioned, the integrity, the trust, the respect, nobody's trying to get out of work. I don't think maybe some, but I think for the most part we know, right? We have that smoke detector. And then finally, my last core value, I think, is communication. I think it's key. If you can communicate and again, ties into all of the other things, then you can set those expectations. You can know what people are thinking and needing. And I think it really helps get you to that next level. And so this process was really cool in getting to these core values is we started with a list of 150. You mark your top 20, and then you have to narrow it down to 15, and you have to narrow it down to 10 and then to 5. And it's really hard to think about, okay, what really matters to me. And then to say, okay, if I really think that matters, then what am I doing in my daily life? What am I doing not at work? But how do I know this is a core value? How am I. How am I showing up in my personal life doing these things? And I think that's how I got to that it was truly a core value. Right? Because if you're not really living it, then is it really a value to you?

And if it's a core value, then you have to prioritize it, right? And you have to stay committed to it. You can't negotiate with yourself about when you can pick and choose a core value.

So it was hard. It was a hard exercise.

Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. Lots of people are. Are struggling right now. They feel like. Lots of people feel like they're Experiencing setbacks. And. And it's understandable. We've had a bunch of years now of setbacks. And on this show, I love to help people identify that. Setbacks, more often than not reveal their magic moments to spring forward right where they can seize the moment. Have you experienced a. A setback that when you look back now, you're like, oh, my God, if that didn't happen, all of this amazing wouldn't have happened. Have you had something like that?

I have, actually. Fairly recently. I've mentioned a couple of companies I've worked for. I was with Myriad genetics for over 22 years. It's where I grew up professionally. It was family. And with all of these crazy changes of what, like you mentioned, we've experienced over these last few years, there were a lot of leadership changes, there were a lot of organizational changes, there were budget cuts. And with that comes people cuts. And so after 22 years, I was let go, which is a huge blow to my first and foremost, my identity, because like I said, I went there straight from graduate school. That's who I was. That's where I felt most comfortable. And so thinking about, really, what am I gonna do next? It was right at the beginning of COVID So now I'm thinking to myself, wow, it sure would be great to take a few months off, even a year, if possible, then thinking, but it's this pandemic. What's happening? How am I going to get a job if I don't do this? And for those I don't know if we mentioned this, I live in Utah, and it's not quite the mecca of biotech like California or the East Coast. There's limited opportunities for my skill set here in Utah. And, you know, I'd like to think that I'd gotten to a pretty decent level where I was, you know, hoping to be in an executive level position. And. And those opportunities here were not. They were. They were few and far between. And so with this pandemic as we all know it, it was the opening of the doors to work from home, which was never a thing like you had to be in the office. And so my first benefit or huge, you know, learning was the world is my oyster. I can work anywhere now. I can apply to jobs all over. And so I did. And in my space, there was a company that was the exact opposite of Myriad. Myriad had been. Myriad was the pioneer in commercializing genetics. Yeah. You know, with. I mentioned the discovery of the breast cancer genesis, that was really a very novel thing at the time. And it was a lot of learning. It was super cool to learn all of that, but once 22 years go by, it slows down a little bit and the bureaucracy internally starts to slow down and the speed to launch things is slower. I went to a company that was still in pseudo startup mode called Natera. And so it was the speedboat to Myriad's Titanic. I mean, it was super fast. And historically at Myriad, you know, I'd done many roles, which was, like I said, very fortunate because I learned many different skill sets. I had never done a deep dive role in marketing. And so I had that opportunity at Natera to take over not only a brand new function, but a whole new disease state. So I went from spending my life in oncology to going into organ transplant, solid organ transplant. So when you mentioned about learning a new disease state, you talk about having to really stretch, not just for the knowledge, but also for the specialty. You know, like, what does this landscape look like as far as a physician? And so I was really grateful. As I mentioned, I love to learn the speed at which we did things. I had to turn it up. I did more marketing in two years than I had done in the previous 22. I launched seven products in a year, which is nearly unheard of. Right. And so.

Right.

Like you're saying the brevity, the learning what really matters and what's important and how to just say, okay, we can do a thousand things or we can do 10 things, so what 10 things do we do to make sure that this is a success? And once you do a few of those, you kind of have that playbook. And so it was really cool. And I never, first of all, I never would have applied to a company outside of Utah. I never would have left Myriad. It was so comfortable. You know, you mentioned this, that. What is it that you said that.

Comfort is the enemy of growth.

Enemy growth. Right. I was fine. Right. I knew everybody. I knew everything. It was easy. I don't say easy, but it was comfortable. Right. And so going to a brand and doing all of this where you can't meet your peers. I did not meet my team for seven months because of COVID Wow. So. So it was. It was really a little bit painful, a little bit anxiety provoking. But I learned so much. And I think in addition to really learning, it also helped me characterize what matters to me and how to prioritize those things in my life. Because it was a grind, I'm not gonna lie. It was. It was a lot of late nights. It was a lot of Long hours during the week. And, you know, you get to a point when you're my age when you say, okay, it's I, I need to balance that with family a little bit. Right?

Yeah.

And so, well, you, you figure that out.

And so even something like that setback can be a spring forward.

Absolutely.

And Right. And so naturally, you had to coach yourself through this process. This wasn't an easy Vicki experience, but like other Vicki experiences, it blossomed. Am I right?

Absolutely. And it was mindset too. Like, it wasn't easy. And recognizing that and recognizing, you know what, what can I take away from this?

Yeah.

I learned boundaries too, which I wasn't so great at before.

Tell me about boundaries, because I have no clue about this boundary thing people always talk about. What is that?

So as an example, the previous CEO, not at my current job, but the crazy, where it was more crazy, the CEO would call me at midnight and think nothing of it. And so the founder of the company would call me at 11 o'.

Clock.

And finally I just had to say, listen, I'm turning my phone off. I'm turning my phone off at 6:30. I'll do 6:30, I'll do 7. I'll have it on silent even until 10 o' clock at night if it's an emergency. But these late, late night phone calls for fire drills that really aren't fire drills are not sustainable. And so that was one, I think, just really declining meetings when I really couldn't make them. Because I think what I would try and do is multitask. And I stress myself out by thinking, well, if I'm on the call and I don't cancel the other call, I'll just hop on when I'm done. And then I'd be anxious because I wasn't giving my best at either call. Right. And so things like that, that were really hard for me to say no or to even. This sounds really absurd to say, hey, I can't. I have my son's soccer game. That was really hard to admit that my family mattered.

Right. It feels unprofessional, Right. To have something outside of work. And yet it's so essential because it allows you to have those core principles alive. And I mean, anybody would resent their job. Job if they couldn't live their life. Right.

Yeah. And I think that Covid did a little backstepping with some of that. Right. You're never off. I think that was one of the. As much upside as it has for helping you work from home. I think the downside was well, what else are you doing? You should be working all the time. So I think that that has now kind of evened out a little bit with all of the different studies that have come out talking about burnout and just this constant on.

But yeah, okay, so I. I play all out. I don't know how to do it any other way. Okay. And that also means that I'm incredibly passionate about my work, but I find time on the weekends. You know, if my wife goes and does something with a girlfriend, I might sit down and knock out a couple hours of work. But I play all out. Any thoughts on how best to push yourself away so you can return rejuvenated? Like you have tricks there for me?

Well, I do try. Dogs help because they make you feel really guilty when they sit in the chair in your office and look at you. So sad. So it gets me out. I think that, you know, we talked about this. I live in Utah. It's beautiful outdoor, quality of life. So I do a lot of outdoor things. I try and get on my bike on the weekends. I don't know how to force you to do that, Todd. But I think that it's my mental health as much as it is.

Yeah.

My physical health and. But, you know, to your point, though, I feel like I work on the weekend, too, but I try and do it early. Early in the morning when nobody's awake yet.

Yeah.

Of. Check that box.

Well, I. I definitely get my hike time. I had a nice four mile hike this morning, and I do it maybe four or five days a week. And like you mentioned, it's the mental health part. Right. I come back, I feel like I'm ready to lift up other people. I burn off the craziness that's going off in my head. And that's part of it. Vicki, I'm so grateful for this opportunity. It's like, as I'm going through this conversation with you, there's like several moments in this conversation where people could lift up a blueprint that they just heard from you. And the blueprint is just to name off a couple. Like when. When you have a setback, you can, you know, spring forward. Sometimes a lateral decision doesn't mean that you're not progressing. In fact, sometimes, just like being on the freeway, you get out of one lane to open up the next one. Right?

Yeah.

And I also heard about your hunger to learn and your desire and willingness to never be embarrassed, which I know. Well, I'll give you one little tip. Anytime I embarrass myself in a scenario like that, where I don't have the answer. The way I, you know how, like, the way you respond, it will tell you people a lot about your character. Right? Like, if you sweep it under the rug and you act like you gave a suitable answer, but in your head, you're like, that was kind of a crap answer. Instead, what I do when I go back, like you mentioned, you go back and figure it out so you never get stumped again. I will put that information on a, like, PowerPoint or Keynote slide, and I'll stand off to the side and I walk that person through the right answer. I'm glad you asked that. And I went and researched it, and here's the. And what happens is then I email it to them or I text it to their phone, and then they say to them, they're like, damn, that Todd's amazing. They never think about how bad I embarrassed myself. It's about the. It's like tennis. Your forearm and your backhand need to be just as strong. And how you, how you respond to those embarrassing moments will tell people a lot about who you are in your character. And I'm so grateful for the opportunity to talk with you today.

Absolutely. Can I just. I thought of one more thing that, as we talked about progressing and I was thinking about this in terms of, you know, spreading your wings, being outstanding. One of the things I think that kind of ties into that, as we were previously talking before today, is, you know, how can, you know, whether it's folks in their early career or even far along their career in terms of this progressing. I think one of the other things that I found super helpful for me in my growth and trajectory is really, really networking outside my organization. So joining different, whether it's a women's leadership group, whether it's a biotech group, or I sit on, you know, I work with the School of Business here at the University of Utah, and I, I mentor students. I, you know, help them interview, I help them with their resumes. And aside from just me feeling like I'm getting, I enjoy that. It fulfills me. It also is helping them. And so I always would tell my mentees at work reach out, there are so many groups, so many network groups, so many specific topic groups. And if you're really looking to get out, Todd, there's probably outside work groups, you know, like fitness or tennis, like you were saying, or something to get out. But networking is key, and I feel like you get these new perspectives. And maybe I'm saying this from being at a company for 22 years where, you know, you start, everybody starts having similar ideas. Right. And so getting outside of that and hearing what's happening in other places, hearing what the hot topics are. Right. What are the cutting edge ideas, where might there be an opportunity for you that you never would have thought about? So that's something else that I think is super important for those who are just doing their job and really want to get ahead. That's not at work, but maybe we'll help them just globally in terms of growth and development.

Absolutely. I admire that tremendously. Just last week I every semester I do a training for learning disabled students on life after college. And it was last Thursday and Vicki, that morning, I'm not saying this to brag, but I had 500 people registered for my professional training that I was doing in the morning on a webinar and then in the evening I did something for students and there were four students that arrived.

That gives me.

And then it became two by the time I started. Okay, there are two learning disabled students and I'm a former learning disabled student and I got significant help. Nobody would ever know today because I'm stuck in constant and never ending improvement. And as I went through this meeting with them, I realized it wasn't about the number of people, it was about the impact that I could have. And at the beginning, my ego was like, what, are you kidding? Only two people? And then when I was done, it was the most rewarding, heart filling part of my entire day.

I believe it.

And I can't get enough of that.

Yeah. And I think that makes you, I mean, that's amazing. And it makes you better tomorrow getting up for work. Right. I think it is so important.

It's so vital. She's Vicki Fish. She's the vice president of skin cancer marketing for Castle Biosciences. Hey, if you want to find out more about Casel, just go to castlebiosciences.com that's castlebiosciences.com and the organization that she spends a lot of her time focused on is working with women in stem, which is Women the Women Tech Council. You might want to find out more@women techcouncil.com that's womentechcouncil.com Vicki Fish, thank you so much for joining me on the Todcast and helping people understand these opportunities in their life. With the right attitude and the right amount of perseverance, they can have amazing things happen. Vicki, thanks for joining me.

Thanks for having me. This was a blast, yo.

That was a powerful episode and from what we just learned, it should be obvious how you can now implement these lessons in your life to get to the next level. Now, before you bounce, I just have three quick thoughts. First, thank you for taking me on your incredible life journey. Second, if you receive some value from me and you want to pay it forward, it's it would mean the world to me if you left an honest rating and review at Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, I'd be incredibly grateful. And lastly, if you share this episode, whether it be a screenshot or a photo from where you're listening, anything via Instagram stories or LinkedIn, Facebook, or any of the social media sites, just tag me in the galaxy best. I'll repost your content and I'll reply back in the comments because I love mixing it up. In fact, I'd love to share your shoutouts in my feed too. Not only are these shout outs really good for you and for me, but they also help us book more amazing guests because they'll be able to see the reach that you're helping to cultivate. This is a way for you to help contribute to the show. So thank you again for listening and and I look forward to earning a regular spot inside that ear of yours. Let's grow.