Andy Rae Interview

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Global Skiing Podcast. My name's Tom, and today I've got Andrew Ray from the APSI, the General Manager and National Training Director for the APSI, on board. So Andy, welcome to the show.

Hey Tom, how are you?

Good, thanks, mate. So I just wanted to start out first by if you could go through maybe a bit of your list of credentials first, like your background in ski instructing and who inspired you to sort of take on this career.

Okay, I grew up in the snow up in Perisher all my life, and actually my brother was a ski instructor before I started, and my plan was not really to go into ski instructing. But when I did eventually end up there, obviously from a background of skiing and a love of skiing, that's what got me in there first of all, and then a love of hanging out with people was what kept me in there. And that was almost 25 years ago now, not far off it, when I started teaching skiing. And I did that in Parrishah, and then I became a trainer for the APSI Federation. Fairly early on in my career, and I think I've been training for the APSI for 20 years now. And training with— training and being a trainer was, was part of what I always wanted to do. You know, it's unusual to say that, I know, but as much as I love instructing, I always wanted to be involved in, in, in helping people do the job. And yeah, so So it was part of my aim and goal to get there. And so once I became a trainer, I just kept working my way up through the system, the levels, and then on to the training levels. And then eventually had the opportunity to take on Alpine Technical Director in the APSI, which I did for a few years. And then my role evolved as it became a full-time job with the APSI until eventually I was General Manager.

Okay, and so what are your current roles and responsibilities as the General Manager?

Okay, it's a little bit tricky in some ways. It's a very fluid role because the APSI, being a small association, we only have two kind of full-time employees, myself and Lexi, who works in the administration of the office. And so therefore, me answering to a board, and it's a board of volunteers, my role is very diverse, and hence the name General Manager. I look after all of the business side as well as helping the direction that the technical directors take in each of their disciplines so that we can further improve the products and the job we do. Instructors out on the hill.

I guess now would probably be a good time to maybe bring up, like, so for those who don't know, the APSI stands for the Australian Professional Snow Sports Instructors Association. How big are we, Andy? How many members have we got currently?

We hover just under 1,000 members, or probably hitting 1,000 members. Yearly. Yeah, you know, we have obviously a great mailing list of people over the time, but ski instructing is a fairly in-and-out sort of a job. People don't all stay forever, so you get a lot of turnover. So we generally hover at about 1,000 members.

Yeah, okay. And how does— like, that's pretty different compared to something like the CSIA or the PSIA, isn't it? I mean, do you know— do you know—

has around 30,000 members at least.

Yeah.

Um, so we're, we're, we're a completely different kettle of fish.

Yeah.

You know, I talk to people in roles of similar roles overseas and, and PSIA, they have other than, you know, boards for each of their divisions, but they have full-time employees that they have a marketing employee, they have a sponsorship employee, they have all these things. Whereas in our small association, I have to put on a hat.

Yeah, for all of us. Yeah, exactly.

And then it's through the love and volunteers of the members and the trainers that want to improve our association that help us keep moving forward.

So, um, we've just come back from an Interski event in September. So, um, yeah, how was your— what were your impressions of this particular Interski? Because you've been to quite a few.

Yeah, I'm one of those very lucky ones that I have been to a few. I think I've hit my 5th Interski now. And this one, I mean, first of all, they're all different. They all— you look at them differently depending on how many you've been to, I think. And also they're just different because of the country they're in. You get a little bit of that aspect. And how they're trying to run them or present different information at the event. And this particular Induski, I enjoyed a lot. I mean, Argentina was a, was a very different country. It's a very laid-back country, which, which made the organization and the speed of things a little slower than what I've seen in the past, but it also made the experience really interesting. And Induski itself There's always highlights you have in either particular skiers or how teams perform or just their ability to handle tougher snow conditions as we did have in Argentina, things like that. But probably for me, a bit of a highlight was unusually when we went to this Inner Ski, we had time to spare in the afternoons, which At first, from a coach's point of view, I thought this is going to be an absolute waste of the team's time. We're going to be twiddling our thumbs and waiting to catch a bus, which we had to do to get back to the town, and 2 to 3 hours spare in the afternoon. And what happened was many of the team members just basically found someone from another team to ski with and share their experiences and their knowledge and have a bit of a chat. Got to do that with a few people, but I met a bloke named Freddy from Canada, and it was a really just an enjoyable experience to ski with someone that you've not met before and just have a chat on a more on a personal level. Yeah, rather than being in the strict confines of the Interski presentation as such. So that to me was really good. And more relaxed than normal.

Yeah, so that, that opportunity perhaps didn't present itself as much at other interskis, you'd say?

No, I don't think so. And I think it was a result of basically this spare time, you know. At first that seemed bad, but it ended up, you know, yeah, ended up working in the— in, in our favor.

I think also, I don't know if you'd agree with this, but the fact like where, where we were located, like no one was staying up at the resort. We— every, every country, every person that wanted to go to the event had to travel half an hour on a bus up there, and you're kind of captive in this, you know, it wasn't a huge resort and there was one base area. So it kind of forced people to mingle a bit more, don't you think?

Yeah, I think so. I think having that is, is sometimes a good thing. One of my first interskis, I went to, I went to Norway, and it was a very small ski resort. And everyone stayed in a very small town. And similar, wasn't so much on the snow, but in, in the evenings, you basically stumbling over each other and the other teams. And, and that really gave a chance to interact as well. Yeah, I thought that was good.

Yeah. So were there any particular presentations or countries that stood out to you at this Induski event?

I think for me it's again being, you know, further down the track in my interski experiences. I find that you don't necessarily go, well, this, this team is so exceptional. It's more you start to notice individuals, and there were certainly some very strong individuals in, in the form of some of the, the Europeans. Um, you know, you may not think the team itself or their presentation, but some of the skiing was definitely inspirational from some of the individuals. And because there was a race component, um, watching some, some, some actual races that, that, you know, that, that's what they do for, for a job, um, the comparison of how they could race to to instructors who should be the best instructors in the world, it was heads and shoulders above. So that, that I found very good. I definitely enjoyed watching certain teams. Canada did, you know, skied well as a group. Both Japan and, and, and Korea I've watched in their progression through Interskis, and that was interesting, but 'Cause we're a small country, you can only attend so many different teams, and I kept my focus on the Southern Hemisphere. And so I went to New Zealand, Chile, and Argentina, and found that probably the thing that I found most interesting is where countries from the Southern Hemisphere that don't necessarily keep in contact very often, particularly about what we're doing, our technique, our philosophy. But when I was there, both Argentina and Chile were very, very similar in what they were talking about— different words, same concept. And interestingly, Australia and New Zealand's theme at Interski was very, very similar in what we were presenting. And that, that, that was kind of like, wow, there's a surprise! Wasn't expecting that.

Yeah, yeah, sort of, yeah, some across-the-board similarities there. Okay, and so then looking back at all the Interski events you've been to, is there one moment that you think sticks out in your mind?

Probably two. Um, your first Interski you go to, I think you are just— it's mind-blowing. You, you know, I was a very young guy, very new to instructing, and particularly to training, and you just go along and you know you're, you're not very high up on the list of, of importance or, or great skill or anything like that, and everybody looks exceptional. So yeah, I think your first industry is quite mind-blowing. And then as I took on this role, you start to, to look for different things. You know, I'm looking for things that will help the APSI become a better association. And that's when certain lectures stood in my head as being really interesting and that sort of stuff. And I had a very good experience with a Swedish lecturer on their teaching philosophy. And this was a long time ago, but it helped me evolve where I thought teaching should go in Australia. And so it stands out in my mind as Hey, that's a— I don't know if it's a turning point, but it's a, we need to clarify what we're doing. And help from their lecture allowed me to do that.

Yeah.

Further on, it becomes more business orientated.

Yeah.

About the APSI business. So in Austria, the Canadians did a really interesting lecture on the The Desocialization of the North American Ski Industry, which in its name is a mouthful, but it was, it was very interesting just looking at the business as a whole and the model of the business and where we're going. And, you know, and I think that's because I myself am evolving as I'm going through the industries, and I'm evolving in what I'm looking for. So it goes from mind-blowing skiing to No, I'm actually more specifically after something to help, help my role or my business or my interaction with, with other, other people from other associations with a similar job who you don't normally get to talk to.

Yep. So, um, on that topic of the Swedish lecture, um, I was going to say, like, from training with you over the years, I think I've gained the most in terms of your knowledge and your style and approach to the actual instruction part. So, the delivery and the method and the manner in which you do it. And I think you've got a really, a really excellent approach to teaching. So, would there be a couple of key points you think work really well? Because you're obviously training a lot of instructors, are there certain key points you try and get across to them about how to deliver a message, a progression, whatever it is, you know, really, really well?

I would say it's, you know, I don't know. Personally, I love spending time with people and I love helping them improve, so I must have an inherent want to do that, and that probably helps. But I, I try to pass on the experiences I've gained from all the people that have influenced me along the time. And, you know, one individual may not have gone, hey, this is what I do, but you're going along in your, your learning and you go, I like what this person does, or I like how this person explains it, or I like this person's use of different exercises. And it's collecting all of that. And what I try to do is do my best to go, hey, after 20-odd years, this is what I've learned through experience. And I'm trying to teach an instructor who, let's face it, hasn't got a lot of experience. And they've got things to read, they're getting training from trainers, but I'm trying to give them, hey, here's what experience has taught me, here's what works when you interact with a guest, here's what doesn't work, and here's how I use it or play with it.

Yeah. So yeah, just your general— you're collecting and delivering on your general experiences that you've had over these 25 years of of dealing with people on snow.

Yeah, exactly. And, and not just my personal experience, it's, it's very much experiences that I've gained myself through other people. So people who have influenced me, and, and, and I'll generally take what I like from people in the industry here in Australia to people I meet in at Induski or, or presentations or lectures I go to and I take what I like, but then I evolve it to suit my personality and the way I would do it. Or to suit Australia's teaching system, if you will.

Sure. So then where would you see, say if we took an example of you going back and thinking about maybe the last Level 4 exam, would there be a theme in where you find people that don't meet the standard of teaching, where they kind of trip up? Is there a a similar area? Are they trying to just regurgitate words? Are they like— where do you see that, you know, it would be great if you had that extra day of training or whatever with them just on teaching?

What would you—

what advice or what would you get them to focus on?

Probably, you know, it's not so much that they are doing this. I think again it's generally you're going through your levels, you have less experience. So you've had less time to, to test things to see whether they work or not. Now, this is certainly what I would not suggest doing.

Okay.

But I had a friend when I was learning, who he was learning to be instructor same time, we were going through the system together. And he was renowned for going, okay, I'm going to choose this exercise, doesn't matter what it was. A stork turn where you lift up one leg, the inside one, go around the corner. And he goes, I'm going to do stork turns with every guest I ski with this week, and it doesn't matter what level they are or who they are or what they need to learn. Yeah, now obviously that's not meeting the guest's needs, it's not, um, you know, teaching them necessarily what they need. Yeah, but he as an instructor learned an awful lot by doing an exercise or a type of turn with guests and working out what works for one guest, what works— doesn't work for another guest. And he did it through, you know, default or through making mistakes. Probably hence I don't suggest doing it because it's not good for the guest.

Yeah.

So when you're becoming an instructor, it's absolutely crucial that you practice and try the ideas. Now, better than doing it with your guests is to do your practice teaching and spend time learning what can go wrong, how it feels when it goes wrong, and what do you do to make it better. And yeah, you know, hence when we train our teaching, we use a bit of time where we look at the common problems. And, and my greatest advice is to help me with movement analysis, I had to try the mistake to feel it so I could go, all right, Well, if I turn my body instead of my legs, what does it feel like? But more importantly, what happens to my skis? What's the result of that? How does the performance get affected? Understand the mistake, and that's by trying it, trial and error if you will. And then what are some ways to fix it? And actually try the, the exercise or the fix with the mistake to see how it, how it changes your skiing. And that is kind of like making yourself gain experience.

Yeah, yeah. So for instance, that if you were— if you felt you tried to rotate your body in a turn, you felt all the things that went on, and then you chose an exercise that, that is supposed to help that, but you still tried to almost do the rotation, but if— but see how effective the exercise is at blocking that, or, or kind of putting something over the top so you can't really do it and you feel a different sensation.

Exactly. Like, you will have, you know, people will say to me in their training, oh, you know, okay, I can see that you're rotating. This is our example we're using at the moment. Here's an exercise that works well to stop it. And I'm sitting there thinking, no, I don't know if it's the best exercise. I can think of a better one. Let me make that mistake trying your exercise.

Yeah.

And If I can still make the mistake easily using your exercise, perhaps it's not the best one to address the problem. And yes, and, and they're things that I have done, and, and I think people should try— instructors learning— to help clarify it in their head. It's not a matter of you don't get it or they're regurgitating necessarily. It's just they haven't perhaps taught that turn enough times and and, and given it a go to see what would go wrong. And this helps them expand their experience and then, then their knowledge, and then more importantly, their understanding, so that it becomes easier to, to, to help a skier get better, which is really a major part of what we do, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, excellent. Um, okay, so being a director general manager, director of training, where would you like to see the association in, say, 10 years' time?

It's a tricky one. We talk about that a little bit and probably should talk about it more as a board because it is a group of people that help make that decision. My role is really more to implement it and keep the day-to-day running happening. But obviously, in my mind, you know, I'm striving for us as a small association with only small members, number of members, and hence small revenue, ability to do things is on a smaller scale budget-wise, etc., etc. So my aim is that we can just keep producing the best instructors we can with the the tools we have available to us, and keep looking at ways we can, we can expand and achieve that within reason, you know, so whether that's increase our size, increase our membership, increase the products we provide, or increase funding from a different way so that we can just give a much, you know, basically a better product for the people who are doing it is, I would say, the immediate to heading towards the 10-year goal. And then, you know, in 10 years, that size of that will depend on how much is achieved along the way.

Yep, yep. Now, so this current demo team's term is coming up wrapping up, and there's a new demo team selection tryouts, and I think you might have seen on Facebook that PSIA just had their selection process. Any words of advice, like what you're looking for in a demo team member, or someone going up to, you know, with aspirations to be there, that perhaps, you know, you need on top of just being a full cert instructor?

Yeah, that's a good question. This will be our year for selection in Australia as well this year, and the working out of some of those questions you've just asked, we're in the process of doing now— how and when the selection is going to happen, what's expected, that sort of thing. But, you know, I suppose I can look back on what I've done and tell you what I've looked for in the past to help answer that. And first things first is you should aspire for the demo team no matter what level you are. It shouldn't be Level 4. My first team I tried out for, I didn't even have my Level 1. It was my first year teaching. Of course, you're not going to become a demo team member, but you know, I was involved with skiing with my brother who was already on the team, and he just kind of went, hey, I'm going to the selection this weekend, you should come along. And my response was, oh, so that's something we do, is it? Yeah, of course it is. So I went and did it. But as I've moved along, I realized that the demo team is the pinnacle of the instructing career, especially if you get involved in training, you know. And involved in the direction of the APSI, there's not much higher you can go for. So everyone should be thinking about it, especially if in the back of your mind somewhere you're, hey, I'd like to stay in this industry, I'd like to follow on with my levels and become a trainer or whatever. But you're going to an international stage to represent not only your country but particularly your association. So you want to be skiing of the highest caliber possible and skiing obviously within, I suppose, an understanding of the Australian philosophy of how, how we think good skiing is. And you want to be a bit more than that though. I mean, I would say the skiing part is your first step because you're, you're most likely going to demonstrate on the hill. And if we put someone out there that's not skiing at their strongest, then that defeats the purpose. Our team is generally not very large, so out of your, your numbers, you want to put the strongest ones out. But you've got to be also someone who can present what the APSI is doing and believing in on a teaching aspect. So it's not just a presentation skills I'm getting at. Can you speak in front of a group? It's not just, are you a great teacher? It's, can you tell someone from another country, hey, this is what we do in Australia and this is why we do it and these are our beliefs behind it? And you know, that obviously, that whole concept of what that is evolves with the team and with the association and it's its direction over time, but it's an ability to be able to do that I think is very important.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, good. I think that's some good solid information because I've had a few people ask me about that and suggest ideas perhaps, and it's not— you're not looking for someone to come up with reinventing the wheel on, you know, with their presentation or scheme or whatever. Looking for someone that's a good representation, demonstration of the, the APSI system.

Exactly. If, if we're all skiing forwards and you try out for the team and you think skiing backwards is the way to go, it doesn't fit as well. Yeah, so that's your starting point. But what we present always evolves from the team itself. The team itself gets together with their beliefs and and what they think is happening and their direction, combined with obviously where the technical directors are heading with the run of disciplines, and we get there.

Yep, yep. Now, uh, okay, so excellent. Uh, I wanted to ask you, um, what you are working on in your own skiing, because there's got to be some time for you, not just worrying about everyone else and what they're doing. What's, what's been your focus, whether it's been in the last, you know, while you're over in Japan or this last season? Um, yeah, just interested to hear your kind of areas of technical focus in your own skiing.

I had a feeling you were going to ask this question, and you know, it's harder to go, hey, this is it, straight off the bat when you're not in your ski boots. Yeah, standing on snow, you're sitting inside in an office in summer. And yes, obviously I did go skiing in Japan, but like anyone, it takes you a little bit of time to get your feet and feel good on your skis before you can even start really making changes. But, um, I, I'm a big believer in everyone should be thinking about something or working on something to improve themselves as a skier, especially if you're in, in this sort of a role or any sort of training role. You're trying to tell other instructors how to ski better, how to teach better, how to present better, then you should be trying to do the same thing. Yeah, working on it all the time. And so in my skiing, sometimes I probably sit there and think, geez, what have I got to do to try and keep up with these young fellas? That's, that's definitely in the back of my head. And, and how do I ski in a way that's going to be like them? And sometimes maybe I'm going to not be able to do it always like that, you know. But I would say it's, it's fairly simple stuff. I'm, I'm focused on— technically, I'm focused on my transition and trying to move from turn to turn, and I'm trying to do it in a way that's efficient and, and powerful so I can get onto an early edge strongly. So if you imagine a ski racer in your head, how a ski racer moves from turn to turn, that's a little bit in my head. But I'm also trying to do it so it doesn't disrupt my balance too much. I, I have a tendency of moving higher than I need to, and therefore it affects my balance as I move across the skis. So I have been in the past working on getting a little bit lower through the transition, and what I'm trying to do is get that happy medium. What is, what is a perhaps a lower position that doesn't disrupt my balance, but what is also powerful and strong and is going to get me to an early effective edge? So a combination of the two is, is where the focus is, and, and that transition then flows into what I'm thinking about in the turns and that sort of thing.

Yeah.

So that, that would be main focus. And then small focus is just general things I see in my own skiing that are my own— hey, that, that's a habit I have that I've been trying to change. And they can be small things like arm position or or how my stance looks at a certain point in the turn.

Yeah, like that. Yeah.

So that, that would be high end. Um, but then the thing that I always try to do is I try to work on, um, low-end skiing, all skiing as well. So I don't just go, how can I ski the fastest? Yeah, can I ski the strongest? What's the most dynamic turn? Because my job involves showing someone a snowplow turn one day and then, uh, ripping a GS turn the next day. And so I've got to try and make sure I, I am practicing and doing as many of the different turns as possible, help them in, to help myself in my skiing and, and keep improving. Because you, you don't want to get stale, you don't want to get the same and not improve, and I certainly don't want to go backwards.

That's right. Yeah, so in Japan, were you experimenting or, you know, like working on any particular things, even in your parallel demonstrations, anything? Like, I'm just thinking of cues, like, because different people work on their skiing in different ways, whether it's feelings or visuals, that sort of thing. Is there— can you give us an example of what you were perhaps cueing yourself with?

Yeah, you know, you're very much right that everyone is different, and sometimes what I think of doesn't necessarily work for the next person. So I am quite visual. I need to see someone, so I get a little reminder. And I was lucky over there— Paul's working over in Japan, Riley had turned up over there. So you get to see some, some good strong team skiers that have come from our team to give me some, a little bit of inspiration, if you will, remind me to slow down my movements or control the amount that I move when I am going through a transition. Because remember, I've come from Australia, I'm all excited. Yeah, flying down the hill, not, not, you know, necessarily move very well. So That's the first step. And then, then for me, I'm, I'm very much a feeler. And being a feeler, it's quite difficult to explain what it feels like. So I've captured a feeling that I have when I make a turn, and I just simply try to recreate that feeling. And whether it's the feeling you have in the middle of the turn where you're balanced against the ski and you're trying to feel as though you're inside and the ski's holding against the snow to the outside, and you really feel like you're in a strong balanced position. Or the feeling you gain as you move from turn to turn through the transition— skis move across underneath you very quickly, but you don't lose control of that, you don't lose balance. In other words, they don't fly out underneath you and you end up in the back seat, or you don't fall inside because they've gone too far over and you're not getting onto the new outside ski so that it's digging in the snow. But it's, it's very much a feeling that I have had and I'm recreating. Yeah, I got a good, um, feeling in Argentina with all those skiers, the good skiers there. We were also working very hard on our skiing. Very firm snow. And, um, just, just an, a sensation at the end of the turn where right at the end, generally you're letting go of the edge and you move across the ski. It was more of a, a sensation of almost pulling your feet back underneath you. And, and it almost feels like the edge is increasing rather than decreasing. Which doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah, the way to explain it is like at the end of the turn you're still holding on to the snow with your edge.

Yep.

And you pull that towards you, and because the edge isn't going to slide uphill towards you— yeah, you're actually going to topple over the ski and move downhill. And, and it increases the speed or the way you move across the ski and, and allows you to to move strongly and balanced. And I'm playing around with the way that was explained to me over there from the Chilean team. Yeah. Which I'm going to test out a little bit this season. And that sensation was really good. So that feeling I was trying to recreate in Japan. However, the snow is much softer. Yeah. So it's quite difficult to get that sensation. That really works better, where you can hold the snow, therefore it has to be firm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's interesting, because I guess in a maybe broken-down way, you just really— it's the same, probably might end up with the exact same movement pattern, but the way your brain thought about what was the thing that was moving most, or where the movement initiated from, perhaps change from the center of your body to almost at your feet.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Or, or almost which foot is moving. So rather than when am I standing on the new outside foot, what am I doing with the old outside foot before that happens?

Yeah, there's things like that. Yeah, I think that's really interesting because I've been doing some reading into just, uh, general movement training, so if you're trying to learn a new movement pattern or whatever, the more ways you can come at the movement from different angles, so like one example you talked about, the feet, thinking about the feet pulling back and the idea of the edges being on the snow, and you're doing that rather than your center of mass kind of toppling over, that's just one variation, so like the more different variations I guess you can have of that concept, the better and more adaptable you are going to be at that particular point in the turn. So, um, yeah, so that's really cool.

Yeah, and I think that's why it, um, stuck in my head from Argentina. I've been working on that simple releasing from the end of the turn and moving across the skis.

Yep.

How you move across them, the crossover, the transition, whatever you want to call it. And I've been working on that for quite a few years, and to the point that one season I just spent the whole season trying to do it slowly.

Yeah.

You know, um, you know, obviously trying to do it a little bit lower, whatever the case may be, but enough that is efficient, enough that will work. And going to Argentina, there was other skiers that I got to ski with and follow. There was our own team that I was trying to work very I work very hard with and ski with, and being visual, I'm trying to copy what they're doing. And then, as I said, I heard it, heard it in a different way. Yeah, from, from another team. And then I take those ideas and mold it to suit me. And, and, and it simply was the same movement, the same thing, nothing different, just looking at it at a different way has sparked that that excitement or, yeah, or, or the light bulb moment that you need, yeah, to make a change to your skiing. If you don't have that moment where something flicks on and you go, hey, that's, that's different, um, then you're obviously just doing the same thing, you know.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Insanity. Um, all right, so, um, I guess the final thing, Andy, was just talking about Japan. So Japan has kind of grown, been a new area for the APSI over the last few years and it's getting bigger and bigger. Can you tell us how this has grown and how sort of, I guess, how busy it was this year compared to last year?

I think I've been going to Japan for 7 years. We're trying to work that out. 7 or 8, it's somewhere in that range. And, uh, the first year I went, um, was to help with one of the schools there just to do, um, one group of Level 1s. So a maximum of 8 people.

Um, this is just for the listeners, this is a Level 1 instructor certification course.

Exactly. And, and we have 4 levels and, and, um, there's a couple of schools in Japan that are run by Australians and they're taking a lot of Australians to their schools to work in the summer so that they get year-round work and it works great. And these Australians are obviously wanting to continue with their qualifications as ski instructors, whether it's have another go at a part they've missed or take on the next level. And Japan, with this large number of Australian instructors has given us the opportunity to run further courses or retake exams so these people can further their qualifications, come back to Australia and, and, and continue on in their resorts here. And it's gone from that, that first group of about 8 to this year we would have had at the level 3, couple more levels up almost more numbers than we had do it in Victoria back here in Australia last winter. Wow. And, you know, we ran 3 groups of Level 3, about 4 groups of Level 2, and 4 groups of Level 1. So quite, quite a lot of people going through the system and, and having a go of their qualifications and getting further training, using the trainers over there who are already working in Japan to help run these courses, and they come in and do them. And really, it's a great opportunity for Aussies to continue their qualifications, and obviously an opportunity for the APSI to be doing something in the summertime, which is generally a little bit more of a— like any ski resort or ski school. It's a dead time of the year, the summertime.

Yeah, that's right. Excellent. Alright, well, I just want to thank you for taking some time to chat with us, and really enjoyed it, and I hope some people got some, you know, good little ideas or some inspiration. Unfortunately, the North American, Northern Hemisphere season's coming to an end, so they'll have to wait I'll have to come down and join us in Australia.

Yeah, that's always a good opportunity.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So maybe there's some people who might want to last minute do that. But otherwise, Andy, I look forward to seeing you just shortly down in Jindabyne for the start of our Aussie winter.

That'd be great. Thanks very much for inviting me along, Tom.

Thanks, Andy.

This episode is brought to you by Carv, the digital ski coach. Now, one of the features I've had the most fun with all time is simply the is the fact that Carv tracks every single turn you make. I treat it a bit like Strava, so at the end of the day it tells me exactly how many turns I've done, and those numbers keep adding up across the season. So last season in Australia, I had a few days where I was doing nearly 2,500 turns, and my legs were tired, but it was really cool to try and have that number there motivating me. And I'm quietly working my way towards my 1 millionth turn with Carv. So the other metrics I've been diving into lately, and these are new for this season, are very unique, and these are turn corridor and turn radius. And I don't see many skiers using them, but they tell you a lot about the shape and flow of your skiing. So the turn corridor shows you how far you're traveling across the hill, or the time almost between apex to apex, and how long you're taking to transition, while the turn radius measures the actual arc you create once you start the turn. So these can be different, you can have like a very wide corridor, say 18 meters, but a lower turn radius, or the other way around. So when you compare the two, it opens up a whole world of experimentation, and it would be a bit like a race coach will set different types of race courses to influence a racer or skier to change the timing and mix it up. So I encourage you to look into this if you've got Carv and play with it and see if you can manipulate it, because it's only going to improve improve your versatility. So I keep my Carv on my boots every single day because you never know quite know when like a change in technique or a new ski resort or skis will show up in the numbers. And it's great at the end of the day being able to check that, or even after the fact. And I'm really looking forward to the day I open the app and I see turn number 1 million. So if you want to explore your skiing in a completely different way, check out Carv, the digital ski coach. And thank you team for sponsoring this episode.