Carving out your career in the ski industry - Demelza Clay

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Big Picture Skiing Podcast. On today's show, you're going to meet Demelza Clay. Now, with a list of, of things and talents, Demelza is a heli ski guide, a former demo team member. She's been a race coach, a ski school manager. She's been a surf coach, like traveling the Maldives with world-class surfing breaks. This lady is extremely talented and we're lucky to have her on the show. Sam, what did you really enjoy about this episode?

My favorite part was definitely Demelza's tips for younger people in the industry and how they can kind of get past that, that, you know, this isn't the real world syndrome that a lot of people get. You know, if you, if you love skiing and you see yourself being in the ski industry forever, you know, some people like, they, they get hounded by, say, friends, family with the whole like Well, it's not the real world. And Demelza has lived like the sickest life and continues to live the sickest life. And she just laid out like some incredible just tips and just rawness around how to sustain yourself in this crazy world that we live in, like, which is the ski industry. I just thought it was so cool to hear her perspective because, as you said, like, her, you know, her resume is just so long and, um and she's done everything to such a high level. It's, yeah, just amazing.

Yeah, I would agree. On top of that, I think it was— it's interesting to hear her take on coaching and her focus with people on moving towards something instead of away. So you'll, you'll learn more about that, but I think many of us focus on the, the negative stuff, like don't, don't skid don't get backseat, don't do this instead of what, what you should be thinking about is the, is the positive or the things you're moving towards to change that. So I really enjoyed her, her discussion on that. Now from both Sam and I, a really big thank you to everyone who's been following, listening to the show, been involved and follow Big Picture Skiing. We're really privileged and very, uh, grateful that you follow us and really enjoy the content. It's been an amazing journey so far. Now it's, it's really exciting. We've actually got Demelza joining the Big Picture Academy as one of our coaches for the exact reasons you'll hear in the show. Sam, let's just get into this episode and hear more from Demelza. Demelza, it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast.

Thank you, Tom. It's a pleasure to be here.

Great. Hey, so my first question is, you, you had quite a break from ski coaching. Like, you were involved in the ski industry for a long time in different areas— in ski instructing, ski instructor training, race coaching, heli-skiing, managing, all those different areas. And then you, then you took a break, and you're now sort of more back involved teaching again. Uh, what, what was the reason for having a break? Yeah, from, from the, the job and career you loved.

Oh my gosh. Well, I mean, um, gauging by the number of things you just listed that I was very heavily involved in at the time, I think I was just— I think I was pretty maxed out, you know. At one point, I remember when you and I were doing IntoSki together, I was working over here in Canada with a big heliski operation, wearing a backpack, skiing on fat skis, and clocking up a few million vertical feet of powder every season. And then I go back to Australia where I was, you know, demo team member, instructor training, the kids' ski school director, you know. And then I put the skinny skis back on and I get back into that world. And so there was these huge polarities between what I was doing, and I was loving it, you know, getting into, um, into guiding over here was, um, just an incredible way to really refresh myself in the industry. I'd already been working in, um, Telluride, Colorado for about 6 or 7 years. And, and I guess just to take it back further one step, you know, I got into the ski industry just after I finished my, my degree at university, just thinking, oh yeah, this will be fun, you know, do 3 or 4 seasons because my brother was into it at the time and He said this could be something fun to do after university. But then before I knew it, 10 years later, I'd been going back to back and I still really hadn't taken a break. So I had all these other things that I wanted to do. I wanted to learn to speak Spanish. I wanted to do some traveling that, you know what it's like when you're going back to back, it's 4 months on and then 2 months off and then 4 months on and 2 months off. And oh, it's such a gifted life, you know? What we're able to do in those years, I think, of our life when we can do it. But I was just getting tired, you know. So actually, it was just after Interski— Tom, you might remember this— but I shipped all my stuff back home to Canada, all my skis, and I went to go and live down in the south of Spain in Andalusia. And I went to Spanish school with, um, you know, every day, 5 days a week. And I decided I was going to learn to speak Spanish. So that was the first, um, like break that I— like sabbatical almost professional sabbatical that I decided to, um, to take from the industry. But, um, I guess a few years after that, then I was just living full time in Canada. I decided not to come back to Australia because those are pretty, um, long years— 240 days on the snow every year, especially, um, in the way that I was, was doing it.

And, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, uh, just like on that on that tangent, because some listeners will resonate with that, some won't. These back-to-back winters that, that we've done, what would you say the, like, the, the top kind of 2, maybe 3 challenges with going back and forth? Obviously there's great things, you're skiing nearly like 2/3 of the, like, 2/3 of the year. But yeah, what did you find were the, were the main challenges to those back-to-backs?

I think things have changed a little bit now, but, and I think in the ski instructing realm, it depends on your level of certification. But, you know, visas can be a big challenge. So, um, work permits, where you can work, where you can't work, um, living, you know, the cost of living, accommodation. I was, uh, living in Whistler at the time, um, and, you know, my partner and I, we had a house, so I was lucky. But I know it's not like that anymore. And I think that's— I just received 2 or 3 calls from, um, children of friends who have come over from Australia, and they're over in some of these larger resorts. They have jobs, but they have nowhere to live. So I think that's one of the major things playing out today.

That was always stressful, wasn't it? Like, you're, you're like, okay, you maybe get secure something for 2 years, but then that family's like, sorry, we can't, our niece is coming back and so they need the room. And then suddenly your accommodation that you were kind of, oh cool, I've got something set, nope, nothing. Yeah, that's really stressful.

Telluride was one of the most amazing. I would go back there in a heartbeat. So if anyone from Telluride is watching or listening, I'm going to come knock on your door soon. But my first few seasons there, I think the dollar was hovering around 50, 60 Australian cents or the other way around. Yeah. And anyway, so we went out, you just had to go— online was a thing. You can go and look up things on the internet, but it was mostly just the newspaper and zooming in on the ads to see if we could find accommodation. So I had 3 or 4 friends who were all looking for rooms and/or a whole house and they said to us, okay, you want the house for 4 months, you have to pay first, second, last and deposit. and it worked out to be like $48,000 US dollars. How do you—

like, wow.

Okay, the thing is, we're ski instructors and we've been making all these long-distance calls. I mean, all that has changed now, and, um, I think that is one of the most beautiful things about getting into the industry as a young person, is you learn these skills of survival. You know, you're traveling without your parents, you are— you're working, you have to be really professional. Um, you know, the landscape has changed. But I think, um, and the number of people that you meet every single day— you might meet 50 people if you're doing group lessons, and you have conversations as an 18, 19 to 25-year-old or something, as you're getting started, with 50 different people on the chairlift. So you learn some serious people skills, you know. I think that's one of, um, yeah, one of the really great things.

Yeah, definite positive. Any, anything else? What about like, um, the amount of time? Did you ever find you were just over being on snow all the time? Ski boot discomfort?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, that was another thing you didn't miss when you started.

Yeah, when I stopped. Yeah, so I guess fast forward, yeah, I, I left Whistler and I went home to live in Australia because I had not lived in Australia since the year 2000 for any longer than those 2 months, uh, you know, aside from being up at the ski resort. But, um, that expat life. And I thought, well, Australia sounds pretty good. And, and I'd really gotten quite heavily into surfing, and it just had started to take over, um, everything. And I grew up skiing, uh, I'm from Millawa, uh, just in the foothills of Mount Hotham, and super, um, lucky to have had that experience. And, uh, as I got into doing back-to-back seasons, I just found that surfing was the perfect way to kind of balance my body out. Skiing was all about my lower, my lower body and my core, and then surfing became all about my arms and the water and being in tropical places. So I honestly, I just wanted to go home and, and feel Australian for a while and go surfing and try and figure out where those next steps might be. You know, as you said, I'd kind of done all these really amazing things, um, you know, heli-guiding and being on the demo team and, and everything, but I couldn't understand why sometimes I'd get out of the helicopter on top of some of the most amazing mountains in BC and I'd just be thinking, I need to get home, I want to get home, I want to get out of these boots, um, and Yeah, I want to get to a beach somewhere. And that's one of the things that I think a lot of people in the ski industry don't understand. If you don't do back-to-backs, it's, it's, it's challenging to keep that stoke going, you know, when you have just finished a winter in Australia— pardon me— and you turn up in Canada and, um, your friends who do one season, they're ready, you know, they've had summer, they've been biking, and, and, and you're ready as well, um, But I also think that, um, you've probably heard of seasonal affective disorder. It's just that lack of sunlight throughout the year. I think that I was really starting to get a bit of a buildup of just, just feeling a little low being in, you know, short days, not a lot of sun contact on the whole body. And now there's a lot more research and science and literature around that. So I definitely feel a little bit more normal when I'm, when I'm getting my summers in, you know. So I think at the end of the day, there's an expiration date to everything. It all just depends on the person, you know, how far you can go.

And also, it's that seasonal affective disorder. It's pretty common where I live now in Sweden. Yeah, so, so I know all about it. Um, and I actually got another question as well because, like, you know, just listening to you, you've done so much amazing things, and you've kind of like, you know, you've explored so much of the industry in so many different ways. And, you know, but I also think like a lot of young people who get in into the ski industry, they see it as like a bit of like a gap year thing, or like, and quite often you hear that term like, oh, are you going to go back to real life? You know, like, that's, that's a really common thing to say, oh, you're going back to real life. And you have at times gone back to real life, but you've also kind of returned as well to the Unreal life that we live, which is awesome. I'd love to hear, like, what would your advice be to someone who is coming in and actually thinks, oh, maybe this is like the type of thing I want to do the rest of my life, but they keep hearing from other people like, oh, you know, back to real life, or like, you know, it's time to get a job or whatever. Like, what would you say to that person if you're going to give them advice?

I would say just keep on learning, you know, always look for opportunities and places where you can learn. So, um, you know, I think every single year that I was involved in snow sports, I was either sitting an instructor level, I was doing rookie trainer, I was learning to run courses. And then the heliski thing— pardon me— the heliskiing opportunity, um, you know, I got my foot in the door because I'm a Level 4. So that happened because of my involvement in the ski industry. Um, and the owner of this business over here happens to love the way that professional ski instructors communicate with their guests, you know. So, uh, I came on as an apprentice guide, and then I started doing all the guiding courses. And, you know, you think your Level 4 is hard until you then pardon me, have to go and do Operations Level 1 and the ski coaching, uh, ski guiding Level 1, and then the advanced, um, all of the, the equivalent things. Just— and then after you do all these courses, you're, you're a baby guide, you're just an apprentice guide. It's like a whole new pathway, and it really opened my eyes. And, um, definitely before that happened, I thought I might almost get out of the industry sort of soonish because I was getting a little stale with you know, Telluride, Australia, Telluride, Australia. But if I could give advice to someone now, it's just keep on taking courses and learning. You know, if you're a ski instructor and you want to get into backcountry, go and do your AST. Find somewhere where you can learn about, about snow safety. Be a professional. You know, I think that sometimes ski industries and ski resorts, um, are a great place for people if they want to come and party, and obviously those things are fun as well. But if you are— if you understand that the ski industry is just one part of the outdoor industry and that it's all interrelated, what you do in this industry, it's not as though it's not going to affect the future for you. So the things that you're going to learn, um, in, in this industry whilst people are saying to you, oh well, you know, like, I had it too, when are you going to go out and do something with your degree? Well, I have a sports science degree, biomechanics, nutrition. I'm pretty sure I'm doing it with my degree. But funnily enough, um, when I went to Maldives on a surf trip, it was my you know, instructing professionalism and my ski guiding sense that helped me learn about the ocean. And then I was offered jobs on surfboats in Maldives, right? Yeah, yeah. I would just say understand that things, things flow from, from one to the other, and the ski industry is not an isolated little world, you know.

That's, that's right. I love, I love that.

Yeah, yeah.

I was just saying, like, that's right, like, I love that term, just keep learning. Like, like, you, uh, got a bit stale you know, in the back-to-back instructing seasons, and you found a whole new world, uh, right next door. Um, yeah, totally. I actually felt the same when I went from racing into instructing as well, you know, like, and yeah, you know, sometimes race coaches bag instructors and stuff, but actually, um, you know, I got so much out of it, uh, as a skier, I would say, just like referring to myself as a skier rather than just like a racer or an instructor or whatever. So totally know what you mean there. That's awesome.

Yeah, yeah.

So I think that what you just said there— oh, sorry. Well, I think you would— what you just said there speaks to the second piece of advice that I'd give is just humility. Be humble. It doesn't matter if you are a guide or a race coach or an instructor. I've been all three of them, you know, at once. I've had all the uniforms in my car, and it depended on the day of the week that I'd cruise off to one job or the other. You know, we all work together and we create the industry. Sure, we work in different facets of the industry, and I think there can be a little bit of snobbery and looking down on, on certain professions. But I think those, those of us in the industry who understand that collaboration is the stuff of genius, then, you know, like you said, Sam, you know, you're an incredible skier. You've had incredible experience, you know, racing, but you totally love the instructing experience. I mean, that's, that's cool. And you obviously weren't listening to those around you who might have been saying, ah, bloody instructors, they just, you know, whatever they do, whatever the stereotype is. So be humble, you know, and keep looking.

I certainly wouldn't be sitting here right now, um, if I didn't get into it and then meet Tom and have Tom as my instructor examiner. So you're totally right.

Oh, now, hey, so Demelza, like, you— the period I'm talking about, like, the years that you kind of developed and then became, like, good enough to get jobs in all these different areas, it's a very different period in time to now. Like, now technology definitely plays, like, bigger roles. Even, even like you said, finding houses, that sort of stuff, you've got the internet. Versus back then. I'm interested to hear your take because, so people know, Demelza has joined the Big Picture Skiing, uh, coaching academy. So she's one of our coaches now. You've been coaching for a few weeks. What have you found is different and like kind of interesting now that maybe online technology is being brought into your, your, your ability to coach people on snow? What's, what's your experience been like? Early on of doing that?

First of all, I've got to be completely honest. So I've been watching what you've been doing on the sidelines, Tom, just through social media, what have you, and mutual friends. Your name might come up and, oh, he's doing Big Picture Skiing, and I'm like, oh, okay, that's great, I'm just gonna go out and get barreled, or, you know, whatever I was doing in the meantime. And I, I kind of knew in a sense that you were doing something online. And, uh, when I saw you last year and helped you out on snow, that was fun. Um, but I have to say, in the very short time I have been involved, I am completely blown away with the power of the online coaching platform that you've both built. I think the ability to communicate, um, quite nuanced and precise, uh, technique, uh, aspects of skiing because you have this incredible video library that people, people can go back to. I think I've, um, you know, as you guys know, I've run a couple little, uh, sessions and I've, I've been coaching people on the app, and I feel like I've had to put way less effort into communicating what a person needs to do, and all of a sudden they're doing it the next day. Like, they're able to repetitively play my feedback um, 100 times a day if they want. Whereas if you're on the snow, you've got to get their attention, make sure they're not cold. You know, the, the heavy lifting in the instruction used to be getting them out to a spot where you can get them videos, coaching especially, get some decent runs on tape, get them inside, do the video analysis, all the stuff that we do on the workshops, you know, standing up in the gym and looking at the skis and how the source— we get to do that all now, um, without spending all that time on the snow. And look, the only bad part about it is that we don't get to ski with everyone, and that's, that's obviously really fun. But I, um, yeah, I'm blown away with the, with the outcomes that I have seen, um, just in the short time I've been here. But then also some of your athletes that have been with you for multiple years, you've shown me some of their previous—

yeah, like, like Chad skiing, like, like Chad's a ski patrol.

Unbelievable.

And Demelza, what's your thoughts on like— so Chad's been with us for like 3, 3 years, or he started out private coaching with me since the start. He was like one of my earliest like private, uh, Zoom clients, and we'd chat and I'd send him some videos and then he'd come back a month later and here I've done this, Tom. But now he's, he's doing the academy. Yeah, what do you, what do you think of this Ski Patrol's skiing?

Well, I wanna— I don't wanna say anything about Ski Patrol. No, I think it's awesome. I think he's obviously really motivated to, to— he's really motivated to, um, to learn. And, and there's no friction involved for him to do that with you guys. So he's out there doing his job, he's on snow, he's in his ski patrol outfit ripping out these amazing javelin turns, doing these long turns that, you know, I swear you could put it on the website and they'd think it was black diamond fall line.

Pumping the bumps like with huge motion, powder, and is versatile.

We're communicating really high-end, uh, like I said, nuanced, uh, ski coaching feedback to him. Um, but all he has to do is get one of his colleagues to video him a couple times a day and he has, um, you know, some of the best coaching that people have access to straight away. So I think, um, You can get those results when you have motivation, um, and a little bit of time because there's less friction. He can sit there and look at those, um, those pieces of feedback and the before and after videos or the side by sides that you might give him of yourself and him, and he can look at it 100 times, you know, that night. So yeah, mind-blowing.

Anyway, I've actually got a question as well, because, you know, speaking of being blown away Like, I was pretty blown away when I saw, like, your first Zoom sessions with the clients too, because, you know, you're taking a different angle. Like, you took the mental angle and so on. Um, and actually, before we touch on that, I just want to, um, play on a point that you brought up, which was kind of the, the, the ease and, like, the, like, how the, the video is so effective and how effective it is. Um, it's funny because, you know, before we started all this an interesting thing was that Tom and I, I guess we didn't really connect the dots of what exactly it is to like what online coaching can be compared to like what the closest thing is in real life. And, and to me, the closest thing in real life wasn't necessarily the ski instructing. It's actually when a race coach coaches their athletes, because typically the coach goes up on the hill, like I guess all three of us have done this, you know, you set a course, your athletes ski it, but there's not that much coaching happening on the hill. Like the they kind of know what to do. And typically you're filming all their runs, and then at the end of the day you go and sit down, and then you sit down and watch the runs with the athlete, and that's where the real learning happens, right? You know, you're going back, you're going forward, you're doing slow-mo. And it's just funny how long it took, uh, for me and I guess like, you know, Tom and stuff to kind of get past the idea that the coach doesn't necessarily need to be sitting next to you. Right? You can actually do that online. So it's, uh, I thought that was really cool. And then it's, it's cool when someone like you comes in and has that experience that we had as well, which is like, yeah, like this, this really works. It's, it's just awesome.

Um, so what was that? Because you guys, you mentioned the other day, Tom, that this was all building through the pandemic, you know, when you couldn't get on the snow anyway. So yeah, I want to ask you guys, like, what was that like when Well, you just, you discovered the power of this tool.

Yeah, well, I'd say the first thing was frustration, honestly, because I always had the freedom to go skiing if I wanted to, and then suddenly, well, I lost the ability to have my other job, which was as almost like a, a therapist, so I couldn't put hands on people. That was a blessing in disguise because then I had the, I guess, the guts to then take on this this new project. But the first thing was frustration that I couldn't teach and do things the way I'd been used to doing it and get my fix of skiing. However, uh, it was, it was cool because I'd already started delving into these Zoom or private sort of alignment sessions where people would— I'd check out their body. And, and through skiing and knowing about the body, I was always very good at analysis of how people move. And so I got good at seeing that on a little screen and move this way, that way, show me how you twist. Oh, that's a bit weird, like you got this old injury here.

And so that's what I thought, that was my watch. Oops.

So yeah, I started, I started combining these, um, these skills and then seeing how I could put that, yeah, through, through an online platform. And I was always sort of doing it one-on-one and then Sam came along and we started to like realise actually in a group setting is more powerful. And I'm going a little bit off topic here, so it's my way my brain's going around. But even that on that group topic thing, like that's amazing. Even yesterday hearing from one of the students, Leanne, she was saying how, because she made some good breakthroughs in one of the tasks we've got at the moment. That she has to do. I said, what really helped? Like, what was the cue? And she said, well, it was these few cues, but actually it was watching all the feedback of the other students that you were giving on them. And so you're in this group environment as well that helps, uh, helps kind of give you more and these other perspectives on, on someone else's skiing. And, you know, maybe don't feel as bad because it's like feedback on their skiing, not not tearing down your own. And anyway, yeah. So I think building the library so we had backup info to, as you are using to refer like, hey, here's some more information on that topic. And then figuring out how to not blab on too much, get your feedback in a short form. That's developed over time and been really good to the point where I prefer coaching online, and I still even get a kick out of still being in Australia at times when people send videos of skiing and I can literally feel like I'm there imagining what they're doing and send something to them, and then they send back a couple of days later an improved video. That is like, that's a rush. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's a, that's a coaching rush. I think all coaches would agree that's one of the best things about it is knowing that you've had an impact on their skiing.

Yeah, pretty damn awesome. I was just gonna say it's pretty awesome. Um, Danelza, just quickly, I did want to ask you about the Zoom class. Um, your Zoom class.

Oh yeah.

Um, because you focused on like the mental game, and I've done a bit of that as well with the students, but like you did it in a really structured, organized way. Um, and like the feedback was so good, um, and, and it was just awesome. And I mean, I want to hear a bit more about your background with that, um, you know, how are you so knowledgeable in the area of like, you know, mental skills and, um, especially in like the athletic sense.

Sweet. So it actually sort of, uh, it's following on from what you were saying, Tom, um, about group workshop environments. Um, I, when I took, um, the break from the ski industry, which was really only like 3 years in the end, um, but I started working for a registered training organization, um, out of Melbourne. And because of my, because of my, my degree and my background in, and she knew me from the ski industry, so she knew that I could facilitate, she knew that I could speak, um, and communicate and, and work a room. And so I basically did her, um, Diploma of Leadership Coaching and Mentoring and, and this is a nationally recognized International Coach Federation training program with Fire Up Coaching. If you're interested to look them up there, she's really great. And she used to do a lot of the management training in Mount Hotham. And this is the person that comes at the start of the season, and you've probably done it at one point. It was sort of like the fish training, but then it was more like positive. And she was like, oh, they just wanted me to do fish. But she started rolling out all this emotional intelligence and positive psychology and the catastrophic wiring concepts. And I said to her at the end of one session when I was managing, I'm like, Kath, what is it that we're learning? Like, I've been to university and studied psychology and this and that. And she's like, oh, well, it's positive psychology. They've just proven all these things. And she offered for me to go into— and it was neurolinguistic programming as well. NLP used to be her main game. Since all of those subjects, or I guess areas, fields have enrolled into the skill of coaching, but not athletic coaching. They're involved in athlete coaching, but more in professional coaching, career coaching. So I went and did her qualifications so that I could come and work for her. So the class that I gave the other day, I sat that class with her giving it, and I just remember sitting there thinking to myself, oh my God, I got on the damn row team. I'm supposed to be one of the best communicators and teachers and, you know, in the country. And I've been telling people what not to do for 10 years. So, I had one of those, like, moments where I was like, this is incredible. And I kind of started getting curious about going back.

And so people know, yeah. So, people know, like, the topic was sort of centered around the fact that people don't realize a lot of the time they are speaking to themselves negatively. So they're going out and working their skiing saying, oh, I'm not going to get backseat, or I'm not going to skip.

Don't lean back. Yeah, yeah.

So it's, so it's focused on the negative. And, and that classic example of like, well, don't think of a pink elephant. You can't not— you have to think of it.

What are you thinking when someone says— yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so you're also around being, being aware of that. And, um, and then also for us coaches, right, Sam, it was like a good reminder. It's like, yeah, early season, let's keep that in our forefronts when we're giving feedback. Be careful.

It's about— exactly, it's about change. It's about engaging change. I said to everyone at the start of that class, I'm like, what is it that we're doing right now in Big Picture Skiing? And, and we decided it's like, we're here to change, we're here to evolve. So what we know now, um, about our wiring, our catastrophic wiring, is that we like to stay focused on the things we don't want because that kept us alive for millions of years. There's a storm coming, that animal might eat me, I'm leaning back, I'm going too fast. So we, like you said, don't think of the pink elephant. Whatever you're thinking of will become where your attention lies. And that's what you're essentially— your experiential— your experience is going to be around the pink elephant or leaning back. So what are you going to do more of? You're going to lean back. So in a nutshell, so I learned all these things and I just I remember thinking, oh, I really wish that I'd learned that, uh, 10 years ago in Level 1. And we do do a lot, you know, all the ski instruction, um, certification pathways do stuff on, on learning and the phases of learning. Um, but the, the thing about our wiring and positive psychology and that the brain can actually change itself and we can create new neural pathways with intensive focus around— it has to be intensive around the thing that want is a fairly recently established scientific fact. We used to believe that the brain was concrete and you'd get to sort of a certain level of intelligence at a certain age, and then after that it was just a downhill slide to the grave. So neuroplasticity was confirmed in science. And so I started digging into all of that. Then before I knew it, I was facilitating these professional workshops to like Ambulance Victoria. I'm up there with Queensland Health to all these, you know, surgeons and doctors and registrars and, you know, C-level staff and employees of these big organizations and delivering these workshops that wasn't about telling them how to do their job better. It was just telling them how they can think better and how we have flexibility with the way we're able to talk to each other in organizations, but then the way I apply it, because we're sort of coaching ourselves all the time when we're skiing, is the way that we talk to ourselves. You know, if you're talking to yourself badly all the time, and then, yeah, when I went back, eventually I started doing a couple more courses for the APSI, and it's classic. You can say to most— I think instructors tend to fall into this trap more than race skiers, because race skiers have been taught differently. To review their runs, and we'll talk about that in a sec. But I'll say to an instructor, tell me what your focus is with your skiing, and they'll start listing it all. Oh, I lean back, uh, my left hand is too high, and I downstem on my left ski, um, I rotate with my hips. And they'll tell you all the things they're doing wrong. And I will spend usually the first couple of days helping them, um, reframing their talk. Okay, so if you weren't doing that what would you be doing? Oh, and they had to think about it. They couldn't, you know, their knowledge and the thing that they're moving towards and the solution for their issue was nowhere near as clear as the problem they had. We're really, really good at understanding and identifying problems. It's just our wiring.

Yeah. Like, oh, I spend too much money on, on shopping and, you know, like, what are you trying to do this year? I'm trying to not spend as much money on this. And there's a classic example. You're not focused on the thing you're moving towards. You're like, I'm just going to try and stop doing this habit. Same, same with skiing.

With your kids, you know, don't forget your lunch. Stop running around the pool, you know, and you'll notice signage in different countries. Is now utilizing more of this move towards speech to elicit, because it's very subconscious, you know, um, uh, walk slowly around the pool, remember your lunch. Um, there's, yeah, there's, you'll notice it, like, once you sort of learn a little bit about this wiring, you see, you see that the number of stop signs and don't do this, because our subconscious mind just kind of takes it only really identifies the subject of what we're talking. So you put a don't in front of something, the subconscious mind is going to be like, don't think of the pink elephant, you know, don't lean back.

Yeah.

So, Sam, you'd probably relate to this. When I worked with, um, with the race skiers that I worked with, they're a lot better at doing this because they get coached. They get coached anyway. So, you know, my conversations with race skiers are more like tell me what you're doing between the first and fifth gate. Okay, so I was doing this, it was going really well. Okay, and then what happened? Oh, okay, well, I got a little bit back, but then I— so they have a— and all athletes do this. Like, you'll listen to an athlete giving a rundown of their loss, maybe, uh, where they failed, you know, they, they got second or they, they didn't podium. They'll— you'll notice that the words that they use and the way they'll review their own performance, they're, they're not going to sit there and cane themselves. They're like, yeah, yeah, it was a really big learning experience, and, uh, you know, we're definitely working on more, uh, structure in my training so I can blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and move forward. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. For, uh, for the successful athletes, that seems to be a common factor for sure. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Um, I've actually got an interesting question for Tom, which relates to all three of us. But, you know, Tom, we were looking for, uh, well, we've been discussing bringing on extra coach for a while, right? Like the academy, it's been getting, uh, more popular each year. And, you know, at the same time, we also are conscious of the fact that we want to keep a really high quality program and, and maintain that and so on and not not get overwhelmed ourselves. Like, we want to be able to— we always wanted to give people, you know, the attention they deserve and so on. And, you know, that did come down to us eventually. We were like, okay, we need to bring on a new coach. And, you know, like, there was so many times we were like, what do we— like, an online ski coach? Like, we've kind of learned it on the go, but then it's hard to throw somebody in that deep end, right? And then, Tom, you said this is a few months ago, you're like, oh, you know, Demelza, she's pretty awesome, like I might have a chat with her. I want to know, Tom, like what was it for you that, um, you know, made you drawn to Demelza as like someone who would, uh, eventually join us? Because, you know, we're hearing like all this awesome stuff Demelza's done. Uh, I want to hear like the catalyst.

Yeah, well, first of all, I think what she just mentioned there about understanding just how to coach well, because in, in an online environment you don't have much time, especially if you're giving video feedback. So I can't be there coaching someone how to do that and saying, can you please redo that again, or this is how we do it. So I, I knew that she was, she was going to be really good at that. So the communication part was probably number one. She had skills, been in the industry a long time. I'd worked alongside her, skied alongside her in the, in the 2011 Australian demo team. So, you know, I knew that when she put up a video, people would also— the, the visual people would look at it and go, wow, that's really nice and really dynamic skiing. Uh, she had, she had time so she wasn't like managing a ski school or heli guiding. So, so all those things kind of fitted together. And, uh, yes, I think that, that complete package. And then finally, I think it's great that we have a female coach in there, and I know a lot of the ladies in the program really appreciate having some balance there. Like, I really believe balance in, in all aspects of life is, is just a great great sort of thing to keep in the back of your mind. And that, that was a really— I mean, I think you agreed there as well. We, we weren't looking for another guy, we were looking for, um, a female to help, to help with that. So those, those are the things. And I— and yeah, it's been, it's been fantastic. Very, very fast learner because the things that have been, you know, I know this is hard in online coaching, whatever, but, you know, trying this way. And Demelza's been like accelerated really fast and people, people are enjoying it.

I'm glad that you've reviewed my video feedback session or my recordings in a positive way because they were not a minute and a half at the start.

Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? It is hard.

Oh my God, I do love a chat. I've been redoing these things. But actually, can I just One, one other thing I'd like to— you asked me that question at the start, um, about the advice I'd give to people getting into the industry. And I think especially for women is find yourself a mentor. Like, female representation in the ski industry is super important, and I think that there's a lot about it that is improving. And I know for myself, um, it took me a few years until I really understood that there was a path forward for me in doing this. And I met, you know, Shelley Giles and Liz Thomas, and then over here as a guide, you know, Leanne Patterson, Lisa Courthals, Erin Heintzman, all these women that I was lucky enough to work alongside of and, and they definitely put me through my paces, but they also just showed me that there was a way you could balance things like family, relationships, because it's hard, especially now. I mean, to your credit, you guys have found a way to do what you love from— Tom, you're sitting there doing your workshops and I can hear the Australian birds in the background and I know you've just been for a surf. I think it's unbelievable. So, you know, um, really, that is, is such an incredible thing in itself. But I think for any young woman that's getting into the business and they think, you know what, I think this is something I'd like to do, find yourself another woman out there that is already doing it and just ask her. Just be like, hey, look, I, I think I just need some, some help. Can you mentor me? And I bet any money she would just be chuffed. To either help you with your skiing or, you know, the next job placement. Where do you want to work next? You know, because nowadays, you know, the— with academies, ski instructor academies, programs all around the world. I was working in Japan and we had new hire instructors that I was, I was hiring. Actually, I was on the, on the boat in Maldives, literally paddling in to go and do a couple of Zooms to hire new instructors. And some of these kids would have a Level 3. CSIA, but they've never taught a class. And some of the kids, you know, that come over here, they've been hired by a big international agency. You know, it's different to when, to when you and I started, where you had to sort of know people. Hey, I can get a job in, in Hinderglen. Oh great. Oh, Telluride. Wonderful. You know, so I think just that concept of networking and And really go for the job you want. If someone had tapped me on the shoulder when I was a little girl watching Warren Miller movies in the Cats nightclub, which is where they showed, you know, movies in Mount Hawthorn in the Albergue in like the '80s, if someone had tapped me on the shoulder and said, hey, see that red helicopter in that movie? You're going to end up working in that helicopter for that business. You're going to end that, that'll be you one day. I just would not have believed them in a million years.

This episode is sponsored by Carv, the digital ski coach, and one of the updates I've really enjoyed this season is the addition of separate SkiIQs for moguls and short turns. In the past, Carv scoring was mainly built around carving metrics, which meant everything was viewed through that lens. But Carv have gone deep on that research and completely separated what makes a great short turn or mogul turn different from a carved turn. To give you an idea of how accurate it's become, the person at the top of the Carv leaderboard right now isn't a carving specialist, it's Olympic mogul skier Matt Graham. So the best SkiIQ in the world at the moment is coming from someone who lives and breathes bumps, and to be honest, my own highest SkiIQ is also in the moguls, which makes sense because that's my favorite type of skiing. What's really exciting this year is the addition of turn tempo, so basically your turns per minute.

Minute.

It's such a simple external output that's incredibly fun to play with. So good skiing isn't just about edge similarity or parallel skis, it's about how you interact with the terrain and whether you can change your tempo on demand. So seeing numbers like my quickest tempo of 117 turns per minute in the bumps gives you something concrete to compare, refine, and work toward. I've been working with Carv since 2020, and every year I'm genuinely impressed with how much the product evolves. They keep expanding what you can measure, and they're covering more and more of the turn types that skiers actually use all over the mountain. So if you're interested in tracking not just your carving but every turn you make on the snow, check out Carv. And a big thanks to the team for supporting this episode.

You know, but, um, yeah, you, you just have to go for it sometimes. You know, at the time when I got started, being an Australian in the heli world was rare, and being female was even more rare. And my colleagues were super fair to me. They were— at the start, I was a guest with a backpack, you know, and they let me know that. And I had to prove myself. I had to work really, really hard, which is my other piece of advice. It's like, this is not going to come easy. You've got to work hard. Gotta work really hard if you want to ski like Tom, or you want to be able to, you know, work in, in, uh, in Switzerland like Sam. You've just got to put that work in and, um, and, and go for it.

Yeah, totally.

That's why, um, I actually don't work in Switzerland, just here for, for the good times. But, um, but that's, but that's also what—

thanks, he's working online.

Must be nice. Must be nice.

I mean, it's awesome. Like, I can come to Verbier and work, you know, online for like, for Tom and Big Picture and be here because I love the place. Because like, I really love it, you know, because it'd be very hard otherwise. And I actually just want to touch on that because, I mean, the representation is so important. I mean, first because ski towns would be boring as hell without the ladies there as well, right? Like, it's just so boring, you know. But you see it, like, it's so, it's so male-dominated, especially in terms of, yeah, the people that stick in the industry. Like, there's, like, it really teeters off, you know. There's a lot of females who come early on and, and, uh, you know, they do level 1 and 2 and then, and then they don't stick around. A lot of guys do. And, you know, when I was a kid, you, you mentioned, uh, Shelley Giles, and I remember Shelley super well because I remember when I was like 10 and below, I thought Shelly was so awesome, you know. And I'm talking like me being a little boy because Shelly was with— was on the demo team, you know, with you guys, with my dad. And it had a huge impact to me as a kid. I thought Shelly was, was so cool. I thought she was like one of the best skiers ever. And, and I think that was like a good way to, to grow up, you know. Like, I really didn't see it as just like a man's world. Like, you it's, you know, as you grow up, you get exposed to more things the way that they are. But actually, you know, it's the girls who are amazing and at that level, it's not just like the little girls that they have an effect on, it's also the little guys as well. Like, I remember that very distinctly as a kid, how cool I thought Shelly was. So yeah, I think it's really awesome that you bring that up.

I think I remember, um, meeting Shelley, and you know, when you're— you're— well, for me, I was— I just finished university, I had no money. I, I think I had straight skis, like it was 19— uh, it was the year 2000, so really just, you know, parabolics were just coming in. I borrowed my brother's skis and he wanted them straight back after the, uh, the hiring clinic. And, uh, I remember meeting Shelley and Liz, and you don't meet, you know, they just were doing their thing, being all bright and shiny. And I used to think, oh, if I could just like get my Level 4 and be like a little bit like that, that would be awesome, you know. So having those little goals, right? So I got my Level 4, and then I was like, oh God, if I could like be an examiner, that'd also be pretty cool, you know. And then I'm an examiner, and then I thought, oh, I'm gonna give the demo team a crack. Then before I know it, we're on the demo team and the heli guiding. And, you know, and that definitely— the guiding was really interesting because, like I said before, learning, you know, the language of the mountains a little bit and getting out there and, you know, crevasse rescue and all this crazy stuff that we do. It's more around rescue stuff and awareness stuff, but you also have to be this really fun person to, to ski with. And, and you're in this amazing environment, but things, things go wrong, you know, and there's some really, really tough days out there sometimes, um, in the helicopter. But, you know, it was that experience that gave rise to doing the similar thing around Whistler, and then I was doing it in the Maldives. Like, you know, literally, okay, we're gonna pull up the anchor and we're leaving this world-class wave and we're going to go down there to that world-class wave and You know, and then I was in Japan, um, doing this, yeah, some more backcountry stuff, really more, more hiking. But I think just, you know, stay curious. You always say in your videos, Tom, I like that, you know, just that, that notion of like, what if, you know, what if you could do that? What if you were just there on your level 1 with your brother's skis, you know, in the last ski suit that your parents bought you when you were 15 or something, you know, getting ready to, to take a couple years off? But what if it ended being more? What if you ended up moving to the States or Austria or, you know, running a kids program? There's a lot of opportunity out there if you are willing. And this is the other part as well. If you're willing to take on the expat life, which I think, you know, Sam, you're loving it over there. And I have tried not to be an expat. It just didn't work. And I don't know if I'm like the absolute definition of an expat, but I think in the last, uh, 22 years or so. I've lived in Australia for about 3 of them, maybe 3 or 4. Yeah, full time. So, um, lots of returning home. But that's another thing, like a lot of women, sort of the homing signal goes off and they feel like they want to go, go back and get their house going and start a family. But we all know people in the industry that have done that with their kids, you know, while still doing the back-to-back winters. It's incredible.

It is.

Oh yeah, I'm one of those kids.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. You're a love child of that.

Yeah, my question for you, Sam.

Oh yeah, go ahead. Actually, first, my first summer— the first summer I ever had in my life was in 2018. Thanks, Mom and Dad. And I genuinely mean thanks because I've had it, I've just had it so good, you know. But, but it's funny, right, because it's, it's like Southern Hemisphere skiers that do that, right? The Northern Hemisphere skiers, they're not, they're not going to Australia and stuff every season. Like, people who work like Southern Hemisphere skiers like us, we're the ones who go back to back to back to back. Um, and, and I realized that during that summer. I was like, I was like, I was like, holy crap, like, this is the first summer of my life. I realized like halfway through. Um, so yeah, there you go.

I just say something quickly on that too, because, you know, here we are, three Australians, uh, doing this, making a life in the ski industry still. And I think there's something to like your environment. We all grew up in the Southern Hemisphere and the, and the challenges that come with that. When you love skiing also bring about, like, make or break you. Like, do you do what you need to do to make it and accelerate faster? So, I mean, I started later. I didn't do— I grew up cross-country skiing. I only started downhill skiing at like age 21. But when I got into it, it's just back, back, back, back, back and forth doing the work. And yeah, just finding every single ounce of knowledge and time to train to get better. And I think that environment encourages you a bit, like, you know, the soccer's been on the moment. People that are— that have to play in these small backyards learned great dribbling skills because they don't have a big open field with great grass and everything's cushy. They have to do it in a constraint. Like, the challenges bring out the best in you. So anyway, I just think it's interesting with the southern hemisphere thing you're mentioning there.

That's so true. And actually, to— I mean, to give us a plug, right, I, I think that, you know, the APSI just punches so far above its weight, uh, when it comes to like how good the skiers are that they, that they churn out. And I think a part of that is like, you know, there's like the most die-hard skiers on the planet are probably Aussie, because going back to that, you know, which is like such a funny thing to think about. But like, I do remember like speaking of everyone you spoke— you brought up before, you know, Shelley and like, or like, you know, all these other incredible skiers on that demo team, especially 2011 when you guys were all in St. Anton. Like, that was a world-class demo team, like unbelievable, and it stayed at a very high, like very high— or how do you call it— level since then. I mean, that was incredible. Yeah, I'm sorry, Demelza, what was your question before? Well, I—

because I, you know, it's interesting because like, let's talk about you, Sam.

I have—

my turn. All right, talking about— I have, um, skied with your dad, obviously lots and lots, and I have partied with your mum before. Oh my gosh, she's fun.

She's gonna love to hear this.

All right. Oh, um, but yeah, what an experience for you to grow up with that as well. And, and I'm interested to hear a little bit about how how, um, because when I got into the ski industry, I was Alistair Clay's sister. He's younger than me, my brother, and he is a legend, um, and he does a lot of bumps coaching still now, um, but I had just gotten in and I was Alistair Clay's sister, and it stayed that way for a while, and then he left for a while, and then he came back, and then he was Jamel de Clay's brother. So yeah, I reckon when I knew you, you probably don't remember as much because you're a teenager, you're pretty— I was taller than you, I'm just gonna say that. Um, you were, you were Robbo's son, Tim Robbo's son. But I reckon now, um, I reckon now you, your dad is, is Sam's dad. And just, you know, I don't know, sometimes being growing up in, growing up in the shadow of such a great um, you know, like technical master. I mean, I don't know, how old was he in 2011?

He was like, oh yeah, he would have been, um, a very early 50s, uh, 51, 50. Let's see, let's see, I can tell exactly, it would have been 54.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So unbelievable.

And we all, and we all looked at him as like, you know, pretty much the, the picture. I can't even remember Riley saying, I just want to go follow Tim and just like, like his short turns. And yeah, we all really admired Tim skiing. But sorry, so go ahead, Sam.

Yeah, it's, it's actually an interesting one because I remember, um, so I mean, there's different, uh, I guess, you know, it depends like what you want, right? Like, Dad is such an incredible technical skier, um, and I think what's cool about him is that he has the same story as Tom. He didn't start skiing until he was 21. And just like became such a devoted, like, almost like priest of the sport, you know. And it's just been his entire life since. And now I guess he's done— he just did his 45th season at Treadbo. So he's the longest serving instructor in Treadbo. Um, and you know, I'm so lucky to be his son in that way because, you know, I mean, who knows what I would have done with my life. Like, I've lived an incredibly a privileged life to grow up with something like skiing. And I think I'm still Robbo's son. I was back in Thredbo in July for the first time in 5 years, and I reckon I'm still definitely Robbo's son because it seems like, you know, everybody knows him, even the new people in the ski school. They're all like, "Oh, that old guy rips, eh?" And there was a really, like, maybe I can tell this, I'll just won't say any names. In fact, I don't know the names. Um, you'll— you guys will like this though. So Dad, you know, he coaches the, um, Level 4 race, and he usually takes out the, uh— and he's still doing Level 4 coaching in Treadmill. And there was a new person who was new this season, and they, um, they got put in Dad's group, right? So they go out there, it's Level 4 race coaching, that dad's taking. And she went back and said to Matt Smith, who's the director there, like the training director, she said, who's this old guy? Like, I shouldn't— you know, you should put me in a group with a good skier. Like, I don't want to be coached by this old fart. Like, more or less. And then Matt Smith said to this person, if you can beat him in the course, I will pass you, uh, without having to do the exam. I mean, I don't know if that's verbatim, but it was something along those lines. And, uh, you know, they all went out and they saw Dad go first. And at least if there's one thing about Dad, you know, his knees aren't great. He has trouble walking these days. Not really, like, but you know, he's not going to go for a sprint. He's not going to go running. But Dan, those knees work for skiing still. Like, he still has such an amazing touch. And apparently, you know, he went down and, you know, raised a few eyebrows, and apparently she was really happy to be in this group after that. So, I mean, that just kind of goes to show, like, he still has that kind of, like, almost has, like, a real presence on skis. It's not just like, hey, his technique is like this. He You know, you go down and he really does turn heads. And at the same time, very humble. He never coached me unless I wanted to be coached. He never went out of his way to, like, force me to do anything to do with skiing. You know, he respected my passion and love for it. And I think that's why I'm also in the industry as well. So, yeah.

Good point. Hey, I think there was— Demelz mentioned something about straight skis. Your dad also would have started out on straight skis, and I remember like this does come up from time to time. So like, like early on we're sort of focusing on some fundamentals in the academy, and a big lack of skill, you could say, is being able to kind of steer the ski, which is like edge it and guide it with, with the lower body a little bit. Do you want to, Demelza, speak to that fact and maybe just bring up what you're, what you're seeing with, with people skiing and this fundamental sort of lack of skill there? If you know what my question is around—

yeah, yeah, I think, uh, so I grew up on straight skis as well but I feel like as the ski technology continues to change, and it's still changing, um, you get a lot of people who will only ski on like an early rise, um, very quite a fat powder ski. Um, it's not until they decide to do some instructor training that they all of a sudden end up on something like that. And I feel like as skill, it's almost like, um, you know, languages, how they get forgotten. Like Latin doesn't get spoken anymore, and there are certain dialects of, you know, Indigenous Australian languages. It's sort of like it's a skill that's being watered down a lot, and the importance of it is, is, um, it's not, it's not, it's not losing its importance in our world. It's hugely important. But for people who ski outside of um, a disciplined ski world, whether you're training instructor levels or just wanting to become a more technical skier or racing, it's, it's there. But the difference when I was a kid is everyone could turn their skis really well. You had to, otherwise you would fall over, you know, if you did the thing that a lot of people are doing these days. And I also think that there is a shift in the subculture of freeriding and freeskiing as well. Like, there are a lot of people who ski the way that they do functionally for jumping and spinning and slopestyle. So it's kind of interesting, but at the end of the day, when it comes to one of the biggest jobs that we have, when people come to us and they're like, yeah, I want to learn to rip, we have to teach them to turn their leg and steer the ski. And these small little things that are hard to detect to the untrained eye when they start out, they are the things that make all the big differences. Um, and I think honestly, like, the improvements that I've seen in some of the students and athletes that you've been working with for a while, because we're able to break things down so in such a detailed way if they require I feel like the change is really pronounced, you know, for the amount of time I've spent communicating with that person through the app. Or, you know, compared to being on the snow, sitting on the chairlift, up and down, up and down, stop over here. Okay, we're just going to do a minute of talking. Got to keep them moving. Everyone wants to keep skiing. You know, like, that's a really, um, important instructional experience as well, and a coaching-coachee experience. But at the end of the day, I think a lot of the heavy lifting is done when you're able to sit down and break things down a little bit. Like I said, the brain doesn't have the trees whizzing past. We can focus on exactly what it is. And how many times have I seen an athlete write down in our groups, oh, I really see what you mean now. I'm gonna go practice, done, you know. And that's, that's the, um, that's the stuff, I think.

Yeah, especially when you're saying that, how many times I've seen that and it's been 3 weeks. I mean, yeah, like it just goes to show, I mean, it is, it is pretty, pretty damn phenomenal. Um, actually was like, there's something I just wanted to bring up as well, just going back to the, uh, the season chat and like kind of even reminded me when you, when you were chatting about, oh, like, kind of the ancient, like, the lost art of turning a straight ski and stuff. Um, what I really appreciate about, uh, you guys is, and, and I think that this is important for our students and so on, right, is so, like, I've been lucky, I grew up skiing my entire life, um, but I've learned, uh, and this also goes to just learning, learning, learning, I've learned so much about my skiing from listening to folks like you. Because so, for example, Tom not skiing until he was 21, I think that number one, like, you have a completely different perspective on skiing. But also, um, it does show our students that you don't have to be the lucky Aussie kid who grew up doing back to back to back to back to back seasons and so on. And, and also, I can say for myself you know, if I didn't work with folks like both of you and those in the APSI and so on, I never would have learned how to be a good coach, right? There's a lot of people that, like, you know, you kind of assume, oh, you'd be a good coach, but, and they've skied their entire life. But actually, um, you know, if you want to be someone that's really pedagogic, it actually can help to have started later as well. So, um, Yeah, I just thought that was a just kind of an interesting point. Like, it just came over me again when you were describing, well, just like even in your experience, like something going from like growing up skiing on straight skis, you know, how even some of that skill still translates to what we need to do today as well, and how then you're like even taking some of that, speaking to the clients with, you know, to the athletes and clients with the about it. Sorry.

Yeah, I think, Sam, yeah, totally. Like, I think, um, you know, when I was coaching— I didn't coach race skiers forever in Australia, but I definitely, you know, did it. And there'd be quite a few of the young racers who had gone through those early years of FIS and, okay, this isn't— this is not working out for me, I'm not going to keep doing it, but they get into coaching and we'd be like, oh God, here we go, you know, because the best skier that comes out of the race squad is not normally the best coach. And it's a humility thing again, you know, I don't need to learn all this, like, and I spend a lot of time teaching kids how to steer. I'm like, you reckon you can edge? This is great, it's fantastic you can edge. Now let's learn how to steer and do this. And, and the start, they'd be like, oh, I could tell they weren't liking it. But then when they realized how those skills would translate to the whole mountain and, and what they could do in their racing as well. So as a credit to you, Sam, you've been able to remain open-minded and curious about what the instruction pathway, you know, can, can offer you, because that's not always the case. You know, the best skier doesn't always end up to be, um, the best instructor. And for Tom, like, um, one of the things that I really enjoyed watching as your career has progressed, because, you know, Tom was on Telemark Bucks when we were on the, the demo team together. He was, he was telling Tom, and when Tom would start skiing down the hill, people would just stop what they were doing and watch. They'd be like, oh my God, how does he do that? And at that point in time, you're also getting really frothy on, on, um, not freeing your heel, on getting into Alpine, right? And watching you and, uh, you know, the other two I mean, everyone had a great time at Interski, but watching yourself and Paul and Riley, the way you applied yourself was just phenomenal. Like, you guys have just, you know, your whole— you said, I think, in one of your little bits of content that I watched last night, it's like you probably think about skiing too much. But, you know, it's to your credit because you've just completely immersed yourself in it. And, and that's what has helped you to develop into the professional that you are today. You know, a lot of people get stale and they get stale for good reasons. It's hard working back-to-back seasons in and out with all the accommodation and the visas and the job insecurity and all those things that can happen. But it's been so cool because, you know, when you were telemarking as well, when you, when you would I don't know if I can tell, tell this publicly. I'm sure I can, but remember you used to rotate really badly when you were doing your short terms, and you were like, I'm gonna fix this. And, and, uh, you don't rotate anymore. Yeah, yeah. So all the work, and it's just been so cool.

So, uh, I know it's out. Tom used to rotate. It's out.

I used to rotate everyone like really badly.

Yeah. Do you know what, when I When I, uh, was going through my Alpine levels and was like working on fixing that, I don't remember this because I'd had a lot of drinks. I'd just passed my CSIA Level 3 and I was in the bar at Long John's in Silver Star, and apparently I was up on the table and I said with an expletive, I'm going to effing ban the word rotation and allow anyone to do that now because I was so over being Like, yeah, I was like, it's allowed. Uh, yeah, yeah. So yeah, but I don't remember doing that.

Oh, it is.

Yeah, I was gonna say, just coming back to some actual ski chats, uh, because we're all frothers and so on. Demelza, I'd love— uh, I reckon our listeners would love to hear like, what is your work on your own skiing, you know? Um, because I mean, you're a pretty, you're a pretty damn awesome skier. And you know, you even just outed Tom. It's like, it wasn't always perfect, and Tom is still working on his skiing every day. But like, it's funny, right? Because you think, like, you say like, oh, you know, Tom, he started skiing with me when he was 21. He was on the Telly, uh, demo team, or he's on the demo team for Telly. It's easy to think like, oh well, maybe Tom's just an athletic freak and so on. But actually, you know, it's— there's more than that. Like, you know, everybody goes through those times where they, uh, get over big hurdles and so on. And we're always working on stuff. And as you said, you're always learning. So I'd love to hear, uh, what are you working on right now?

Well, so I blew my knee about 2 and a half years ago, September 2020. So I ended up here just through the pandemic. I was in Canada after all the years of being away. I came back and the pandemic happened. I was basically on holiday, and, uh, before I knew it, I'd blown my knee dirt biking. So I didn't do it skiing, and I worked my butt off and I got back on skis, um, about 4 months later. And I did a, uh, I followed the Melbourne ACL rehabilitation criteria-based, um, return to sport protocol. If you're interested, um, we can put a, a link to that. It's a public resource because Melbourne is the ACL rehabilitation capital of the world. Did you know that?

I didn't know. There you go.

Anyway, so that has been my main focus. So my first season, I did, um, from month 4 to month 6, really gentle biomechanically, like there was— I was staying centered, there was no leaning back, but I was, you know, because I obviously had a pretty fresh graft. And then my second season, I was really strong and I was definitely looking better, but technically my graft hadn't healed until 24 months, which was only the September just gone. So this season now, oh gosh, after all these years of, um, of being on the snow, and I've never really had any massive injuries. I'm now learning what it's like to be injured and just knowing that there's that one little part of your body that may or may not, um, you know, break again. So I've been working on my head game a little bit, and I've just been trying to probably just push myself back into those levels of of dynamic skiing and flow that I wouldn't have had the confidence to do those previous 2 years. My left hip started rotating a few years ago because of all the surfing, so I'm a rotator as well. I had a, like, a hip hike thing going on, and, you know, after the surgery, my ACL surgery, my whole right-hand side of my body just got really stiff. And, um, so really, I mean, I'm 44 and I'm— I think I'm pretty sort of fit and active, but I'm now feeling pretty humble about the fact that we have to take care of my body. And for anyone who is younger than me or older, it doesn't matter, like, you know, take, take care of your body. Like, do the mobility, do the stretches, look at some of the resources on BPS Library and do that stuff. So, um, yeah, my focus right now is just to sort of even out a few of those. Uh, I feel stiff in my skiing, and I'm working on a different— like, a little bit more hip counter when I'm, like, down in my lowest spot. I'm going to send you guys some videos, actually. But I'm always working on my skiing. I think the best skiers I know are always working on, on their skiing. So It's fun. And I think what I realize now about skiing, coming from the surf world, that I just dove right into the surf world. I got, you know, just went full mermaid style for a while there because surfing gets talked about as a lifestyle and an art form. You know, it's not just a sport. And I think skiing is exactly the same way. We don't have to all ski the exact same way. It can be a way we sort of express ourselves, the way we like to move on the snow. And maybe we want to let the arms kind of like fly up a little bit or get into the powder. And it doesn't have to be this really like regimented like thing that sometimes it can appear that way for people. So I like to try and communicate to that, to people who are trying to bring more discipline into their skiing. The discipline doesn't mean they have to become a carbon copy of whoever they are watching, you know. Um, yeah, and being able to take all the things that you're learning to the chute or the powder run or into the mogul line— like, that's why we're doing this, right? And, and feeling good about that run and feeling safe and, and knowing that you can still Yeah.

I think, I think it's just, I think that's a really important point because I'm listening to this book called The Art of Learning by a guy, Josh Waitzkin, who was world chess champion and then later on world champion at something called push hands tai chi, which is sort of like a martial art. So, so seemingly two different things, like a very mental game and then a more physical one. But really he talks about learning and what he's learned from mastering these two things. And at this point, he's really emphasizing, I don't think, like, people don't do the basics and the fundamentals enough, which is, I guess, what you're saying, that it's not being stiff and robotic, it's really being, like, curious and, and, like, take an in-depth approach to see, like, at a really slow speed can I make such a really nice, like, arced turn with just the right amount of edge, the balance in the right spot, the, the gradual turning, and sort of like pay attention to what's going on there and, and build up from there? Because the champions can all kind of do that, and they've gone through working on that sort of stuff, and that gives them the ability to be creative thereafter. So I think it's important, like, like, for me, I distinguish that like robotic sort of stuff as— I would, I would describe it more as like taking the time to really take away a lot of the, the factors. Go to easier terrain, go slower, make a, you know, less performancey turn, and then see if you can get everything right in that, and then, and then move up. Because I think social media and all these sorts of things, like, and I'm a culprit of it, I put out there like what looks flashy and good but I don't put out there all the hours, like skiing. Even at the moment with Archie Young, like every— I'm watching him, but I'm working on my skiing in snowplow and stuff behind him. Um, anyway, yeah, like I was gonna say, my question to you, because you— we've been teaching javelin turns this last week, which is like a drill. You can look it up on YouTube, but basically a really good steering balance sort of drill, turning the leg drill. You've been back out there doing them again, probably for the first time in a while. What— you said you had a really good self-training session the other day. What did, what did you get reminded of by going back to that drill?

Yeah, so I've been doing a lot of the javelins and the storks because it's really great. I mean, that's the thing that people need to know is we, we all work on fundamentals fundamentals, race skiers, like they get their day started, they are on the fund— like they're doing their fundamental exercises. So for me, getting back into javelins, I guess, um, it's really helped me loosen up my hips a bit, uh, and get that hip into a much better position. It's helped me to, um, it's actually, you know, all of that uphill steep completion stuff. It's actually reminded me of, of to, to complete my turns when I'm like skiing down the face, you know, and I'm like out of control all of a sudden. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm gonna, you know, gotta hook the little toe type of thing. So it's just such a, um, complex, uh, skill set, isn't it, skiing across all the terrain and everything that we do. So it's been really nice to jump in, and I'm kind of like a— I feel like sometimes demonstration skiing is like dressage. I used to compete on horses, you know, through my younger years. We lived on a farm and everything, show jumping. And it's like all the demonstration and the fundamentals work we do is like dressage, you know, on the horse. When you're horse people, you will get that. So it's just slowing everything down and helping you to to all of those, uh, areas that need improvement will just come— they become highlighted when, when we're doing that. So yeah, I've, um, it's reminded me of, yeah, which leg is weaker, which one is stronger, and slow it down enough so you can actually fix it.

Yeah, I, I think, um, just on that note, like, what's funny is like, you know, Tom was saying like, yeah, like on, on— well, on the big picture skiing, Instagram, like we post a lot of videos of us ripping around. What's cool about that is like, you know, people like those and then they get introduced to us. And then we have other clips where it's like just us doing slow drills and so on. And if they like that, then maybe they want to explore further with us, you know. But, but of course, it is like the cool skiing is, is definitely the coolest. But, you know, as Tom was saying, like we're all working And you said this is automata, like we're all working on slow stuff as well. I have this very distinct memory of Paul Lorenz giving me a mark on my Snowplow, my Level 1, and I'd just come from the World Championships like a couple months before, and he was just like, dude, this is shit. You know, like he was like, that's not gonna pass the exam, and I was and he was like, you know, you're really upright in the body and like awkward. And I was just kind of like, I was like, can I really not snowplow? Like, what the— yeah, you know. And, and then also, yeah, and at the same time, I remember that exact same season, Dad coming in one day and saying, he's like, Sam, I totally just made a breakthrough on my snowplow, you know. And like, you might hear my dad Yeah, I mean, there's a guy who would have been doing it for, you know, like, yeah, I guess 30-whatever years at that point and still working on the snowplow. Um, and, and, you know, Paul, Paul Lorenz, who's like, obviously, you know, people love watching his short turns on YouTube or wherever. I mean, it's like, if you— I feel like if you've seen, uh, you know, if you follow us, then you've probably seen his short turns around. And, and it's such— but it's like not the only thing they're doing, right? Like, it's just right down from the fundamental level. And like, I remember just gave me an intense appreciation for how difficult it is to get the slow stuff right. I just did a bunch of stuff, a bunch of hockey turns with one of our, uh, like, guys in person the other day who's gonna, you know, it's gonna come out as a video soon on the website, a hockey stop progression for short turns. And damn, like, my hockey stop is just— it's, you know, it's good enough, but it's just not that good, you know, like, just a hockey stop. Um, there's so much to work on, so Yeah, yeah, yeah, gotta stay hungry, right?

Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, that experience you just described of being the Level 1 guy who's just been told his snowplows are terrible, like, that's a, that's a world that people live in. And, and after coming out of the ski industry and into that, you know, learning all of the mindset stuff and how to create change and engage future move towards thinking and problem solution finding, quite often you get people at the beginning of their levels and they're just like, this is too hard, this is too hard, and I keep failing. And so they move on. But I think one of the things that I've always really tried to emphasize, like I'd be doing What was the— oh yeah, I'd be teaching steering, or no, hip position. I always taught hip position, which comes out in everything, you know, as you know. And I'm like, hey, do you guys know why we're learning to do this? And they're like, to pass the exam. And I'm like, no, because we're going to go ski that chute up there and you're not going to fall over. It's going to be great, trust me. You're not going to rotate, you're going to feel really safe. And they'd be like, oh, okay, okay, we're gonna— let's, let's, let's listen to her, you know, just Just remembering where all these fundamentals, sometimes they can get a little overwhelming because it's this big world that, um, it's where, it's where we cultivate change. But take those new feelings and go out and freeski and have fun with them. You know, I think a lot of people can get really, really— I chatted to one of the, um, your athletes when I first got involved after my first class, and they were like, oh man, you know, it was really great to to, um, hear what you sort of spoke about because I've just gotten back into skiing. I'm 35. I want to be Paul Lorenz like next week and blah blah blah blah blah. I'm doing nothing but watching all these videos and Tom's this and Sam's that and, and, and I was like, oh wow, that just sounds like, uh, exactly the way I was when I decided I wanted to be like Steph Gilmore at 35, get barrels, do the big top turns. Like, we just have to chill a little bit, you know. It, it can't— like, the work, the improvement will come. And go out and have fun with it as well. Like, remember, um, why it is that we're doing this, you know. It's not so that we can, um, you know, do fundamentals and, and perfect looking short turns on groomed runs all the time for the video, you know. We do it because we love the lifestyle.

Yep.

Yeah, yeah, we do it because when the powder day comes, all of a sudden I've got great core strength, I can turn my legs, and I'm not, you know, doing those whirlybirds in the powder and falling over and not even surviving on, on one of those days. So yeah, big picture, big picture skiing. That'd be a great name for business.

I think that's a good, uh, a good one to finish on.

Yeah, I'm conscious of the time. I think, uh, let's, let's, uh, wrap it up here. But I think some, some awesome takeaways for everyone, people that are in the industry and want to like find some longevity. Hopefully there was some great takeaways there, you know, focusing on what you're moving towards as opposed to what you're moving away from, working on those fundamentals because that builds the ability to just have fun and, and enjoy the slopes more. Guys, I really appreciate you both spending some time chatting about this. Melissa, thank you for joining the Big Picture team. And until next time.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah. Thanks everyone for listening.

Yeah. Thanks to Melissa. So, so great having you on board and see you all next time, everybody.

You're welcome. Thank you again for having me.

Tom, I think that was probably my favourite podcast episode ever that I've done with you. Just because, you know, it's like 3 coaches chatting together. It was so chilled out and at the same time kind of like almost like a motivational speech, you know, motivational seminar or something. Um, yeah, that was, that was awesome. Uh, so really glad we did that one.

Yeah, I hope, I hope it gives people an idea too of, uh, the, the coaching we do and how we work through an online platform Um, if, if the things resonated with you that we talked about here, what we believe in and making people great skiers, you can find out more and have an application put into the Big Picture Skiing Academy. Just click one of the links in the show notes below.

Yes, so as Tom just explained, you have to apply for the academy. Uh, we do have limited spots. Now we have more spots thanks to Demelza being in, which we're really excited about. So please apply. And if we like the look of your application and we have spots, then we'll also give you a free lesson so you can come on, see what online coaching with us is like, see if it's right for you, and we can take it from there.

Yeah, thanks very much for listening, everyone. Have a great day.

This episode is sponsored by Carv, the digital ski coach. And one of the updates I've really enjoyed this season is the addition of separate SkiIQs for moguls and short turns. In the past, Carv scoring was mainly built around carving metrics, which meant everything was viewed through that lens. But Carv have gone deep on that research and completely separated what makes a great short turn or mogul turn different from a Carv turn. To give you an idea of how accurate it's become, the person at the top of the Carv leaderboard right now isn't a carving specialist, it's Olympic mogul skier Matt Graham. So the best SkiIQ in the world at the moment is coming from someone who lives and breathes bumps, and to be honest, my own highest SkiIQ is also in the moguls, which makes sense because that's my favorite type of skiing. What's really exciting this year is the addition of turn tempo, so basically your turns per minute. It's such a simple external output that's incredibly fun to play with. So good skiing isn't just about edge similarity or parallel skis. It's about how you interact with the terrain and whether you can change your tempo on demand. So seeing numbers like my quickest tempo of 117 turns per minute in the bumps gives you something concrete to compare, refine, and work toward. I've been working with Carv since 2020, and every year I'm genuinely impressed with how much the product evolves. They keep expanding what you can measure, and they're covering more more and more of the turn types that skiers actually use all over the mountain. So if you're interested in tracking not just your carving but every turn you make on the snow, check out Carv. And a big thanks to the team for supporting this episode.