Custom Ski Boot Liners - Zipfit with Jeff Colt

Hey skiers, welcome to another episode of the Big Picture Skiing podcast. On today's show, you're going to meet Jeff Colt, who is the brand manager for ZipFit liners. Yes, ski boot liners. We're talking ski boot liners today. Now, why would that be of interest? Well, in my own personal journey to become the best skier I can be, I've realized how important boot fit is, and part of good boot fit is actually how your liner fits and feels. And Ron LeMaster even sort of talked about liners being a low-pass filter, so they're going to be filtering out and giving your feet and legs different messages depending on the kind of materials used and fit. So I found this chat with Jeff really fascinating on a number of fronts. One, learning the history of Sven Kuma, the guy behind ZipFit liners. Now this guy has, uh, his fingerprints all over like ski boots in general, the modern plastic ski boot. He's been around from when it was leather and then they transitioned. The reason you'll find out why he got into liners, uh, is, is in the show. So really interesting. Also just the, the properties of materials and why certain materials are used in ZipFit liners, what you'll feel putting on a ZipFit liner versus another liner in your ski boots. So that part's pretty interesting and why you maybe want to give it a try. I think you're really going to enjoy this episode with Jeff and learn some more about the history of ski boots and the importance of having a great ski boot liner in your ski boots. Before we get started on the show, just a shout out to my company Big Picture Skiing. If you haven't checked it out yet, our goal is to bring as much information detailed on all aspects of skiing— moguls, carving, short turns, off-piste, everything— the equipment setup, and help you learn and teach yourself to become a better skier. It also supplements any ski coaches and instructors out there, helping you to further develop your knowledge and understanding of skiing and the drills and techniques used to make people get better. We're just about to launch, days away from having an iOS app and Android app, so you'll be able to access videos offline, cast videos to your TV, as well as, uh, join the ski community forum. All right, without further ado, let's get into the interview with Jeff Colt from ZipFit. Liners. Jeff, thank you very much for joining us on the Big Picture Skiing podcast. Now, what, what are ZipFit liners, and do you want to give like a little bit of backstory about how they started?

Yeah, ZipFit liners, um, company that in many ways was founded late '80s, early '90s out of, uh, Footloose Ski Shop in Mammoth, California by Sven Kummer. But in many other ways it's the culmination of Sven Coomer's 60+ years of ski boot design and work around, you know, lower leg and foot morphology and perfecting the foot positioning in a ski boot. So little bit more detail there. Sven Coomer got involved in ski boot design in like the late '60s and he ended up really hitting gold with Nordica Bacante in the late '60s, early '70s. His first super successful design was the Nordica Sapporo, which was like the last really great leather boot. And it also featured a high cuff. So when we think of ski boots today, that high cuff, that was the first, you know, boot to really showcase that design. Before that, ski boots, you know, they stopped kind of just above the ankle like a hiking boot. Um, around that time, Lange introduced the first plastic boot. Nordica asked Sven to take that same idea and try to put his expertise on it. And he ended up coming out with, um, the, uh, I think both the slalom from Nordica, the, the classic banana boot, which if you look up, you'll see a lot of great photos and posters of that boot. As well as eventually the Nordica Grand Prix. And the Nordica Grand Prix is the modern ski boot. It's what we know. It's a 4-buckle hard plastic shell with a removable inner liner that has a power strap. It is the same mold that, you know, went on to be the Nordica Doberman, that went on to be the Atomic Redster. It's the ski boot like today. Wow. So Sven's finger fingers have kind of touched, like his fingerprints are all over ski boot design. Um, and when we made that switch from leather boots to plastic shell boots, he really felt like something was lost in the integrity, the feel, uh, and the durability of the boot. And that came from ski boot companies deciding to kind of shirk, uh, the quality of that liner. They were putting out a cheaper liner made of either open or closed cell foam that didn't have the professional touch of a bootmaker. So cobblers have been working in Montebelluna, Italy for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years making the best boots in the world. And the ski industry basically, you know, yeah, they continued making ski boot shells there and liners are still made there, but it took away the like actual skill of let's make a boot that is, um, designed around the, the morphology of the lower leg. So it really has a feel like a really nice hiking boot has a different feel than, than a ski boot with a foam liner.

Okay. So, so, so before, like, I'm gonna ask you a question before then, like, so there's that, this transition. It's great. You've started with history. I'm getting a good education here. Plastic boots are in, liners are changing. Um, how— like, what did Sven— was he an engineer? How did he get— because is he Australian?

Yeah, Sven has a— he's, he's one of the true most interesting men in the world. Um, he's, uh, born in Australia. Um, kind of Scandinavian ancestry where the the name Sven Koumer comes in there. And he ended up going to school, yeah, for kind of product engineering and design and started initially working with Puma in like running shoes and track spikes and went to Åre, Sweden for a spring break, I think his freshman or sophomore year at university and went skiing for the first time. And it was just like hard stop, met the love of his life, everything else had to go. And he dove really, you know, uh, I guess feet first into the ski industry. And, um, he managed to end up, you know, training alongside the French national team, trying to figure out, you know, how skiers perfected their form. And when ski schools got you know, kind of kicked off and started here in the US. He really brought his learnings from the French national team over, started ski schools, um, in Utah, in California. Um, and I think his love really was always product design though. Um, so yeah, his, his contributions to skiing have been pretty vast. Um, when the switch to the plastic boot happened, that also created, you know, what he is, um, I guess best known for is like being the first boot fitter. So all of a sudden when you switch to a plastic shell with this compromised liner that really isn't built for, for your leg, it's just a mold. That, that's the inception of boot fitting. So now we need boot fitters to actually, uh, make these things work better. They're not made for anyone. They're made for like, you know, this, this average that doesn't exist.

Yeah. Okay. Fascinating. And so did he, uh, with the French team, do you know the name Georges Joubert?

I don't. I'm sure Sven does. And I'm sure I've heard him say it at some point, but I wrote this There was a number of books.

One of them is this old one, the, uh, Skiing and Art, uh, Technique. Anyway, fascinating book. Um, he kind of came up with that term, like the, the avalement, or like, you know, retraction type turn that the French were doing and winning World Cups with at the time. So I just— it's funny, there's this— seems like there's this interesting crossroads, then, like, really interested in design. And because, because this guy Georges, he talks a lot about the importance of the boot setup back with leather boots and So there's obviously some influence there. Sven's probably had like, this must happen down in the foot for us to be able to ski well. And then he's involved with this evolution of plastic, and it's like, oh no, like there's some things that are not carrying over that we had from leather.

Yeah, yeah, I know Sven will probably give me some grief for— if he listens to this— for not knowing, uh, Georges Hubert. But, um, Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, cool. So then, so then the, the ZipFit liner— and was it called the ZipFit liner— is born, um, when?

In, I think, uh, in Australia it might have initially had to be called the SpenFit because ZipFit was already a trademark name, but elsewhere became ZipFit. And really, he, he started playing with how can we make this liner better. The first thing that Sven pioneered on the liner front was a foam-injected liner. What we think of as foam injection, the tubes going in, caustic foam being pumped in, it hardens. Unfortunately, you still have the same problem where once that foam hardens, it starts to compress and it'll eventually pack out. Sven abandoned that concept. It's like, this isn't what I want as a solution. I think more and more materials research led him to cork and the really amazing characteristics that cork has. It's not like a crazy jump. Birkenstock's been around since the 1700s making a cork footbed shoe. They've been used in footbeds as well, but really what he was after was a material that was malleable and dynamic so it could take the shape of your foot, was thermodynamic, so would actually take the shape of your foot naturally with heat applied to it, was vibration resistant because that plastic shell, it actually heightens vibration. So something that could dampen vibrations and really that was resilient, that would not pack out If you left it out, it wouldn't dry out. It would hold its properties for an extended period of time. And he started using cork, I think, in the kind of mid to late '90s. So ZipFit was a thing before we were all in on cork liners. But yeah, this is really a mastermind's pet project out of Footloose Sports. In Mammoth, California, um, you know, simultaneously he was working on designing and, um, kind of pioneering an over-the-counter footbed, which went on to be Superfeet. Um, so he's like, I don't think his brain's ever turned off on these topics. Um, proper foot positioning, uh, how, you know, how that ankle should actually Uh, you know, B, whether there should be like more stiffness on the medial ankle. And like these different components of skiing are always on his mind, even as a, you know, 82-year-old who unfortunately hasn't skied in a couple years now.

Okay, so he, uh, he— so he started this, this liner company, must have been pretty small, and, um, and things, things grew. Now Who were the first adopters of this liner? Who, who in the ski world went, this is cool?

That's a great question.

You know, was it racers?

Like, so Sven definitely came from a race heritage. Um, I think most Zipfits were too much material. They were too much volume to fit, um, in plug boots. So, well, that was really Sven's, like, origin. And, you know, the genesis was to make the best race boot possible. Um, I think ski professionals, whether that's instructors, uh, ski patrollers, you know, coaches, folks who are out there in their ski boots all day long and couldn't sacrifice performance, but also were really demanding comfort and a product that actually was consistent year over year. That's really the ZipFit customer, and it still is today. I think there was a while where ZipFit was just kind of pigeonholed as like, you know, super high-end ski market. You know, if you don't own a third or fourth home and like a Maserati, you probably don't own a ZipFit. What we found when we kind of came in and launched our— website and started talking with more customers was the other story was like the hardened ski professional, uh, who has been in their boots and skis hundreds of days a year, has been skiing in ZipFit for a really long time. And, um, in a lot of ways they're our greatest word of mouth, you know, proponent.

Um, that's really what's pretty much, that's, that's where I heard, uh, you know, uh, I have clients and, uh, and colleagues and stuff that rave about them and say, you know, they carry them over from, they buy a new shell. New boot. Yeah, they take that same ZipFit and it goes in, and they actually even move that same ZipFit liner between a couple of different boots. They might be like a freeride and a race boot in the one season, which is pretty neat. Like, you know, you've got this, this, this like high-performance part of your boot setup that you can reuse and, and, and take with you and, and get that same feel. Hey, I, I love the, the talk about the cork. And how that material is chosen for all its properties. Can you talk about some— because I know there's some other materials in the, in a ZipFit liner. Do you want to speak to the properties of those and why they, they were chosen as well?

Yeah, yeah, definitely happy to do so. Um, so the original ZipFit started leather exterior, leather interior, um these pouches around the ankles of the liner and the tongue that contained this malleable cork composite. We call it OMFIT, stands for One Minute Fit. And that exterior leather, turns out leather, it's really hard to get a consistent thickness on hides because hides are thicker in the middle and Based on where it is on the animal. Yeah, exactly. Where we needed that durability, um, microfiber, which is, you know, basically a synthetic leather, proved to be better for the exterior of our liners. Um, the leather that's on the interior in certain Zipfits, um, is really, really fine and is sheened down to a 1mm grade. It's the same, uh, same leather that's used by Ferrari and you know, these kind of super high-end companies for, uh, for car seats. Um, but then a reinforced kind of plastic cuff with, um, a honeycomb coating, which again kind of helps grip to the actual boot itself and helps with, uh, with vibration. And through the toe box, the real difference with a ZipFit, and it always comes up in conversations around volume, is the toe box is made of neoprene, and then inside is a Thinsulate layer for added warmth and insulation and real, like, merino wool. So the toe box of a ZipFit, you know, when we think of the last of a boot, the widest point of the foot is like the most important part. Because our toe boxes are made of neoprene and merino wool, they actually conform to the skier's foot. So when we talk about the volume of a liner matching the volume of a boot, Yes, the last of a boot typically dictates how that volume expands and extends through the, the midfoot, the ankle, the instep, and through the cuff. But with Zipfits, um, we're not as concerned about like the width of your forefoot because the liner's gonna conform to it. Um, as you buckle down, it's not gonna kind of billow out like a flat, um, you know, oval. It's, it's not gonna create excess material along the sides of your feet or the sixth toe. It actually is just gonna feel like a, an insulated sock. Um, so the volume we think of with Zipfits comes from that cork fill in the midfoot through the ankle area. And, um, you know, that's really our goal is to match a skier, their foot, their boot with the right liner so that they can get the best foot positioning and therefore the best power transfer. Ideally not cut off circulation to their toes, still be able to wiggle their toes because all of our proprioceptors and balance muscles are communicated to our toes. So if we're doing the old, you know, uh, downsize 2.5 sizes and have your toes curled, it's not helping your skiing and it might take up less surface area on the ski, but, um, you're not doing yourself any favors. So the materials are chosen. Very carefully.

Um, when I talk about ZipFit, I'm going to jump in there on, on the toe box thing because, yeah, I haven't used the ZipFit yet, but I've got one that's coming in the mail to try this season. I'm really keen. And I think one of the— like, there was a few things that got me over the line, but the one of the main ones was the toe box area because I've got like a— for this season I'm going to be using like a 92 Fischer like 150 Race boot that I've spent I don't know how many hours grinding, punching, stretching. And so when I put my foot in it without the liner or anything, it is like really perfect. It's snug, but really my toes don't get squashed. I don't get any pressure on any of the, the bony joints. However, the liner that came with that is, is still in the 92 last that when I put on, I couldn't even stand 15 seconds in it. It was brutal. And the liner I put that on, awful. And it even has a bit of neoprene. But what I can see, what you're showing there, the neoprene on this boot liner compared to that, your one is like coming nearly almost more, yeah, more than halfway back, can adapt. And so like, it makes total sense. And I was talking to my, uh, co-coach Sam about this. He used to race world championships. He's like, man, we did all this work on our boots to widen and shape it, yet we cannot really do much unless we just cut and hack apart the liners, which is what we, we normally do. So yes, like, it's no-brainer. I love that part about it.

Yeah. And I know we're, we're hopping around a little bit here, but the liner I'm holding for listeners is, is the Corsa, which is our race liner. And, um, we, we re— kind of, we gave this liner a facelift this year because it wasn't working. For skiers in a, in a plug race boot. The liners that do come with plug race boots, the super high-end ones, the ones that World Cup skiers use, those liners are, they're beautiful. They can be really, really, really nice. A lot of them that come for more, even the, you know, high-end rec boots, they are, they're, the liner itself is so narrow through the last that it's, yeah, it's uncomfortable and it's hard to even get a footbed in, in a lot of ways. And You know, we, um, ZipFit has inherited these designs from Sven that are really amazing, and one of those is the last. Sven designed a near-perfect last that is used for all of our boots. Um, this is still built on a 98 last, but when you look at it compared to any of our other liners, it looks much, much thinner. And the reason being, we were able to um, look at both materials for the sole, the outsole, and then also the strobel stitch that combines the sidewalls of the liner to the outsole to try to just take up less space, um, and create, you know, upwards of 4 or 5 millimeters of space through the forefoot widthwise, heightwise through the midfoot. So that, you know, when we were testing and prototyping this liner over, uh, we got to go over for, um, the Honingkamm and Cortina last winter Like skiing in a plug boot, as someone who hasn't been racing for over a decade, it's super uncomfortable. It's not fun. Um, and it's really easy to like, be like, all right, this isn't working. Like, I don't even think I can do a run in this. Um, and to get to that place where, all right, this is actually working great. Not only can I ski in this all day and feel comfortable because You're really not supposed to feel comfortable in a plug boot. Um, like those who subject themselves to that either have super narrow feet and are in that, you know, 5 or 10% of really narrow feet, or they're, they're racers. And like anyone who buys a plug boot, I'd say, you know, over 50% of the skiers are gonna adjust the toe box in some way. They're gonna grind it out, they're gonna blow it out. They need to do something to make it compatible with them. 'Cause that boot is not really designed for human feet, uh, point blank. So, um, getting to that point where, wow, I can ski in this boot all day and not be, you know, actually screaming and then switching back to my normal zip fit setup in like a, a rec boot, like a Tecnica Cochise and feeling like I was totally outta control and that I actually wanted to be like Corsa race liner and the plug boot, that was kind of like, all right, things clicked. We're like, we made the appropriate adjustments to actually have a, have a liner that, you know, if we're a performance brand, we now have a liner that speaks to the highest end of that performance market, which is, you know, eventually, hopefully like racers who are on the World Cup. Um, So yeah, the—

that's cool. So that's the liner I've ordered, right? That's—

yeah, this is what you ordered. And, uh, yeah, the, the toe box coming all the way back. Like when we talk about ZipFit, um, ZipFit is currently 3 people. There's Thomas in, uh, in Italy and Chris and I here in Carbondale, Colorado. Um, ZipFit also very much includes Sven. Mary, our distributor, all of our dealers. You know, when we say we, it is just bigger than a couple of us, but ZipFit as a full brand, you know, all of these stitches, all of the design, this is Sven's design. Any alterations we've made have been like, all right, you know, we know that Sven elected to put, you know, the toe box kind of switching to neoprene back here, whether that's to accommodate sixth toe pain or for like whatever reasons he did that. And like, when we talked to him about it and ask about making alterations, he'll go deep into like explaining why, why that was thought through. Um, you know, there's this three-legged stool of stability from the heel to the ball of the foot and the fifth metatarsal. And if all three of those points are secure and in good contact with the footbed and not moving around either up or down or laterally, the toes should be able to wiggle and you'll have full power transmission. And so like, when we think of Zipfits, Quark is not the only magic ingredient. It's, it might be the, you know, the active ingredient, but without pairing it with all of other, like Sven's other kind of design implementations, it's the really, it's the whole package that makes, um, makes this inner boot ski so well. Um, but yeah, yeah.

So on that, have they always then had lace-up, a lace-up style liner? And is there a reason behind that?

Yeah, the lace-up and the PowerStrap. Um, yeah, when you lace up, so if you think of your foot in a ski boot shell, um, and you just buckle it down If your foot's not secure within the liner, it's not gonna be secure within the ski boot shell, and you can cram those buckles down and tighten them up a lot. It's gonna cause pain over your instep. You're likely gonna be in discomfort and your foot still might not be secure. So you still might have heel lift, um, or, you know, some movement through, through the midfoot.

If you address that, that would just be like wet putting on like big socks inside and like a well-fitted like the right size shoe, right? It's never gonna feel right.

Yeah, yeah, it's not gonna have kind of the precision or like actual right positioning. Um, so we really think of the ZipFit or the inner boot as the connection to the ski. Um, the shell is great, the shell is what holds things together, but that's a hard, rigid material. Um, if you put hard and rigid against your shin bone, your malleolus, your heel, like other hard rigid things, it's not gonna be comfortable. So the connection to the ski is the inner boot. And if you position your foot properly, you lace it up, you pull this entire midfoot and heel down and back, um, through the cuff, you make it nice and secure hugging that leg. Then when you go to buckle your shell, ideally you actually are just securing it, you're not cranking down on the buckles. You shouldn't need to be. Your foot is not moving within the inner boot. So then that outer boot, the ski boot shell that we know of, that's serving its purpose, which is connecting the inner boot to the binding. And that harkens back to Sen's initial unrest with the ski boot industry was like his designs were being taken and all of the important insides, like what everything felt like, was kind of being overlooked. And the marketing team was getting to, you know, spend more money making the boot look flashy. Um, so from like concepts like the Reichli Flexon Race, which was Spen's concept, you know, that boot actually got kind of Frankensteined, um, from his original design because, uh, you know, once it left his hands, it, it ended up, you know, eventually in the marketing's hands. Um, yeah, a lot of it just comes down to foot positioning.

Yeah. And so that's why you've got, uh, the laces, lacing, PowerStrap. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Otherwise that— you don't get that nice connection and, and snug fit with the inner part of the boot. Yeah, cool.

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Jeff, what you were telling me briefly, the story about how, like, why, why are you working for ZipFit? Do you want to, do you want to get into that? And maybe a bit about, about yourself, like what I Are you a skier? Do you like consider yourself, uh, you know, yeah. What's your story?

Yeah. Um, thanks, Tom. I, I often am told that my, my toast falls butter side up and that like things fall in my lap in a really nice way. And I don't think that's more true, you know, anywhere than with ZipFit. Um, I grew up skiing in New Hampshire. I grew up as a ski meister, so racing Alpine. Racing Nordic, doing ski jumping. Um, really hoped to ski in college. I actually, uh, I had a compression fracture of L4 and L5 in my back, ski jumping at, uh, US Nationals, like senior year of high school. And at that point, um, I think ski racing and continuing to compete in skiing wasn't, wasn't as much of a reality. So, um, I switched to teleskiing for 6 years because it was a lot less impact on my back and. More comfortable on my knees, like just in terms of I could, I could load bear there without any issues. Um, so I patrolled for 6 years in Vermont. Um, have always kind of worked in or around the ski industry. I went on from there to do public relations, uh, for Black Diamond Equipment for a little while through an agency here in, uh, in Carbondale, Colorado. Um, Backbone Media, great, great folks there. And Went on from there. I worked with Protect Our Winners for a bit going into the 2020 campaign season and election. And it was that time that my business partner Chris called me to inquire if I wanted to work with ZipFit. And my first interaction with ZipFit was 5 years earlier or so. I met Sven Coomer and his wife Mary Dominick. Who's Chris's grandmother, at their house up in Aspen, just afternoon hanging out. And what was a pretty like fun, casual afternoon hanging out somehow morphed into my business partner Chris accidentally poisoning himself and his stepmother and them going to the hospital to get like checked out. And me in the garage talking to Sven for like, 3 hours about ski boots. And like, for someone who hadn't heard of Sven, you know, I grew up in New Hampshire, skiing's all around my family. Um, we've either all been coaches or are still coaches. Um, to have this guy tell me like that, like, oh yeah, the PowerStrap, I invented that with this model. And like, oh, the spoiler, like that's because, you know, We used to put popsicle depressors or like tongue depressors against our calves to like stiffen up the boot. And people said it was spoiling the boot. And like, you just had all of this knowledge that he dropped on me. And I'm like scratching my head thinking like, yeah, sign me up. Like, can I work?

I have to work with this guy. Yeah.

Like, this guy's a knowledge bomb. And yeah, uh, he basically was like, either disinterested or not paying attention. And, um, you know, 3 and a half years went by and didn't hear anything really from ZipFit.

And then, uh, yeah, Chris was like, hold that thought, because I should say, like you were telling me, ZipFit used to be— I mean, when Sven sort of ran it, it was, it was just a landline number. So we're not like— he has all these brilliant ideas, but it was probably really hard for the world to access a ZipFit fit lineup because all his efforts are put into making great designs and making sure that's happening right, not business. And so he's like, not probably not getting what you— you're like, hey, I could probably help with this side of things.

Yeah, I want to help with the business side, and he's thinking just about boot fitting and, uh, and foot positioning. Um, there, there have been a couple folks, uh, you know, the distributor here in the US, Charlie Webb, who brought Atomic and now, you know, still works with Kappa, with Leki, with, um, with Zipfit, with a bunch of brands. Uh, Charlie in many ways kept Zipfit alive for the whole, you know, early 2000s. And, um, certain, certain boot fitters, um, like Buck Brown and Olympic Boot Works out in, in Truckee, uh, Tahoe area comes to mind. Like He fit an entire generation of skiers and Zipfits and like, you know, those couple bootfitters in a lot of ways kept the brand afloat beyond just word of mouth. And, um, it really was a landline company. So when we came on in 2020, the conversation was like, all right, how do we, like, how do we take this company from being a landline to maybe having a presence online and do so without upsetting our current ski boot deal, like, you know, ski shops who sell Zipfits and can actually, you know, make an effort to raise public awareness around a really, really cool brand that for the most part, unless you're deep in ski forums, you likely did not hear about. Even though it's, you know, coming up on 30+ years old, it just, you know, was not a name brand in a market that like was really dominated and still is by, by Intuition. Um, even after Intuition, you know, people maybe have heard of Seedus because they also do great footbeds. Maybe, um, folks have heard of, you know, another liner company here or there, but ZipFit was, was not talked about that much beyond those who had actually skied in ZipFits and, and were really doing the hard work for us and spreading the message. So Yeah, we, we came on board just over 2 years ago with some remnant inventory. We asked for a customer list and we had like pieces of paper with like names and addresses and phone numbers. We're like, do you guys get any emails? No, like, what would we need the email for? And, you know, in today's like e-com world, like email addresses are, are gold. It's like, no, The customer list we have was phone numbers and names and where their liners were shipped to. And that was our matriarch, Mary Dominick, taking a single pair of liners to UPS, driving it down there, giving them the piece of paper with the address, and the liner would go out. And a couple of weeks later, she'd get a check in the mail. And that was down-home simple.

That was the process.

In a really great way. So when we connect with those customers who had the opportunity to work with Mary or Sven a decade ago and are maybe just coming back for their, for their second pair of Zipfits, like, they rave about it. And it's so cool for us to hear, and it reminds us of like why we're doing what we're doing and like how important that element of customer service and, uh, really treating people like people, how important that is.

Yeah, because I've— speaking with some clients, they, they, they rave about, about the fit and feel and the difference of a ZipFit liner compared to the liner that came in their boots. Can you try and describe like your first couple of experiences, maybe even like that one, probably even the race boot in, uh, in Europe, sort of feeling like what What would people go and be able to say, yes, I feel this is different about a ZipFit versus a normal one? Like, yeah, do you want to share insight into that?

I, I almost just want to share this one testimonial from, uh, this skier Ben Sims in Colorado who like dialed it down to like, you know, all of a sudden I could ski a steep mogul run with like without hesitation or like movement within my boots, and I had this like ultimate sense of control. But that's like, that's his experience. For me, um, I kind of came into ZipFit like I really had a ton of respect and revered Sven. I could see that the product was different and really interesting, but I'm also like a no BS, like I don't like gimmicks in, in like the ski industry. Like if you put something like some technology on your ski and you say it's revolutionary and it doesn't do anything, like I'll call it out. And I'm not, I'm not for that. Um, you know, there's a pretty good proven recipe of what works in skiing. So my first experience with ZipFit, like I was like, all right, what's this gonna be like? And, um, I think foam liners that come in ski boots, stock liners that come in ski boots, they're meant to feel good at first feel. They're like meant to feel plush when you put the boot on, when you pick the boot up. It's nice and like squishy, comfortable. Um, and from there they get kind of worse every day as they pack out. I put a ZipFit on and I was like, okay, so like things feel pretty tight around my midfoot. Um, especially around my Achilles. Uh, like my Achilles, I can definitely not move my heel at all, but there's like pressure on my Achilles. I have a little bit of a taller instep. I could feel some instep pressure, even like, you know, think a lot of skiers who end up in zip fits, they no longer unbuckle their boots when they're getting on the lift every time. Like that's a habit I've had since I was 6 years old or whatnot. Um, I still felt like I wanted to unbuckle the lower buckles cuz I had some instep pressure and, um, yeah, Sven basically was like, well, you gotta ski it. Like we can, we can warm it up more and do that here, but like skiing in the liner is the motion and the movement that's going to push that Dynamic Cork from areas of high pressure, like pressure points, into voids in the liner. So it's, it's doing a, you know, two-fold, uh, favor for you. It's relieving pressure points, and then it's also putting cork in areas where there's room, thus enhancing the fit even better. And, um, first day out skiing, It's like, I feel like I had grown accustomed to like some medial ankle collapse, my inside ankle, like collapsing a little bit or like some play in my toe box. And like, okay, I don't have any of that. Like, all right. When I'm like pressing forward, right there, there's definitely no heel lift, but I still had a little pressure over my instep. And for me, I, I do a lot of our design work, so I'm now probably 7 or 8 pairs of Zipfits I've, you know, actually skied to break them in and, and get to the point of like, are they compatible with this kind of target boot? Um, it's always like 2 days of skiing with a little bit of pressure point. Third day it clicks. Everything's like totally gravy and it's great every day after that. Um, and I've like developed my own habits in terms of putting the liners on and taking them off and how I interact with the shell in that way. ZipFit, and, you know, we stand by Sven. Sven's like, his word is the word in a lot of ways among ZipFit because the designs are really phenomenal. And he recommends lacing up the liner first and then, you know, stepping out of the boot and unlacing the liner. As a customer buys the boot, they start to learn what works for them. But having an inner boot that really like positions your foot in the right area and getting the full power transfer. The, the most like revelatory thought I had while working on the Corsa design over in, uh, in Italy was like, we hit this point when we thickened up the top of the tongue a little bit. Um, basically, so it had a more immediate engagement with the shin. So there wasn't really space there. Um, and. It no longer felt like I was pressuring the front of my boots to then get my skis out from under me and then giving like lateral pressure. I actually just, I felt like as I came into the turn, I could just push down and out as hard as I wanted. And like the, there was no loss in that, like power transfer, the, the almost like shifting into 4th to go up into 5th with that, like, you know, forward pressure into the boot and then get the skis out to the side. Uh, yeah, it almost just seemed like there was, you know, that, that was no longer like there. It was just laying them on edge, um, in this really uniform pressure that I hadn't experienced in a ski boot before. I like got to the bottom, like kind of laughing with joy, like, Thomas, this is it. Like, that's the feeling. Um, unreal. When we talk to our customers, we try to like hone in on what gets that customer fired up. And like, if we ask like, hey, are you searching for the like perfect turn? And someone's eyes light up and we're like, all right, like World Cup Sidewinder or the Corsa, maybe the Gara, depending on where you live. Like you're really gonna dig this. Um, or, you know, is it, is it shin bang? Is it toe bang that like you're trying to avoid on like big landings and stuff? Like, all right. Like look at the, the Gara HV maybe, or like one of these other things, but kind of trying to meet people where they're at. Um, we, we know skiing and like we wanna make skiing better for everyone. And, uh, we do think we've got like, you know, the, the product mix to make it happen.

That's probably a good point there cuz we've kind of focused a bit on this Corsa one, which is, is the new one this year, more for plug race boots and stuff. There's a lineup depending on what the person's goal is and the kind of boot they're already in. And I think it's pretty cool, when you go to your site, you can actually— you, you go through a little form of checks and they— you ask us questions like, how do you ski, how many days, and what sort of boot are you in, and what size is it. So that— so there's a selection range, isn't it? Do you want to maybe give a little talk on like what they're sort of like pointed at, I guess, the, uh, yeah, the different ones.

Yeah, yeah, thanks for saying that the fit quiz is cool. That has been a lot of work, uh, and for, you know, the last 18 months it was Chris and I responding just with like long-form prose to everyone who inquired, uh, and now we've automated it a little bit, but we're still, we're still very much involved in, in that, uh, recommendation process. Um, you know, we'll talk to a patroller and they'll be like, hey, I want my boots to perform well. But like, the main thing is like, I don't want my gear to beat me up anymore. And like, I just want a forgiving ride when it comes to the end of the day, but I don't want my foot moving like in the boot. And like, when we hear that, like the Freeride, which has this fluted cuff and a flexible cuff and, uh, just altogether, you know, you ski in that boot all day. You don't, you don't feel like it's cutting into your shins at all or your calves at all, or forcing you to be in like that forward position nonstop, especially if you're working around the mountain.

Like, so if you grab that, that, that, the liner behind you, what's the floating cuff thing? What's the difference?

The fluted cuff, basically fluted. I recommend folks go to our website, zipfit.com and check it out, but basically it has Um, incisions like in different places, so it, it splays out. Um, and it's a neoprene interior liner. So the, the Corsa, um, the World Cup Sidewinder, and then this new liner we're launching kind of with, with patrollers and working professionals in mind called the Workhorse. Those all feature a leather interior or leather mix interior. The great part about leather. Like it holds your foot in place like no other. Um, and if you've ever, you know, worn a leather baseball mitt, like as that breaks in, it really takes the form of your ankles, your shin. It's going to reflect the morphology of your lower leg and foot.

Yeah.

Like that, like Hestra gloves. Like I love Hestra, right? Like you just, they conform.

The flip side is if a skier tells us that like they have a hard time putting their boots on to begin with, they are always putting their boots on in the parking lot at Alta and it's like slippery and stuff. The leather interior might not be for them because leather has a higher friction coefficient. It's what holds that ankle and heel in place better. It also is way harder to get your foot into. Like you have to be more calculated and loosen up the liner a lot to get your foot in. Um, with our leather interior liners, like, if your preference is to leave the liner in the boot and step into the boot with the liner in there, it's not really possible. Um, the leather is just too grippy. Um, so neoprene is the material we use for our other liners, and our kind of bread and butter is called the Gaara. We have a low volume Gaara and a high volume Gaara. It's kind of for that like aggressive, wants a forward stance skier, a little bit of cushion with the neoprene inside, cozy toe box with that merino wool. All of our liners have that merino wool, but the Gara really was like, you know, it's designed for something like the RS, you know, 130 LV or RS 120 LV, something like in that 97, 98mm last. A performance alpine shell. And, um, the, the main difference is I think that Gara skis really well, like, in variable conditions, whereas our Race Liners are a little bit stiffer and they kind of hold you. They almost want to make it so like you're, you're really just going rail to rail on, uh, carving. Um, yep. So the Gara is our best-selling product. Um, And then I mentioned that Freeride, which has that, that fluted cuff. The, uh, the one I haven't mentioned is the World Cup Sidewinder. And on the inside of the liner, so inside ankle, it has a stiffened piece of plastic all the way down to the floor of the boot. So to the sole, so that entire inside edge is actually stiffened so that the World Cup Sidewinder adds significant stiffness to a boot. If, you know, maybe most Zipfits make a 130 boot ski how you'd hope it would ski, or like a 150 boot ski how you'd hope it would ski, the World Cup Sidewinder is going to make it ski stiffer. And the thought there is— I wish I could just like lean back and show you my feet, but basically the, the outside of our feet— I'll do a good job for people listening. The outside of our feet are really meant for like pressing. If you think of doing a leg press, what part of your foot is really the force that's driving that plate back up? It's the outside of your foot, the lateral side of your foot. Yep. The lateral. Exactly. The inside of your foot, Sven calls it the monkey foot. Um, the inside of your foot, it's meant to rotate in to climb trees. So when you think of You know, that inside edge of your foot, if you're trying to climb something like a flagpole or tree, you know, like, yeah, your foot turns outwards. Our medial ankles naturally collapse. That's how they're designed. Now think about skiing. You're taking, you know, both feet, putting them parallel, pressing the same direction. Well, the outside of your foot, the, like, The, the part of your foot that's supposed to be pressing hard, the strong part, that's your inside edge. Like, that's not the part that we're hammering down on as hard as possible. Almost all of our pressure is on that downhill ski, which is the medial side of the foot, the monkey foot. So by reducing that medial ankle collapse, what you're getting is a more uniform, just full transfer of energy to the ski. Um, so in so many ways, the World Cup Sidewinder is Ben's, you know, like penultimate, uh, design. It's, it's phenomenal. It's our, you know, um, our like kind of highest end liner. It also might be the liner with like the narrowest audience. Um, it's a little bit too much volume for. Active racers who are likely in like a plug boot or 92, you know, 91, 93 last boot. Um, it might work for like skiers and something like the Raptor, like 95, 96 last. Um, but it really comes down to like masters racers often just love the Sidewinder and same with like instructors who are kind of high-end, like PSIA level 3 who like maybe ski a lot of hard snow, like demonstrating like, yeah, how to maybe, you know, East Coast like or something, uh, how to demonstrate like the perfect carve. That's the World Cup Sidewinder audience. Um, which is a chan— it's an amazing experience. I, I hope we get to a point in growth where, uh, we have our liners out there to demo because skiing in the Sidewinder is like Wow. Like I can get way more out of these turns, uh, with this. But when you take that into variable conditions, moguls, any type of like terrain, you don't want as much, you want a bit of play.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's too much.

You want that little bit. Um, it's, it's too much, but yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's kind of the, the, you know, like full rundown of our lineup. Um, you know, our job. Is really like helping skiers select the right product for their foot and their boot. And, um, we think, uh, we think we make it. Um, so like we, we want to work with that customer and we have customers who come back and say, hey, like I skied 3 days on this and I think it's, I think it's too much volume, or, or like my foot's still moving around a little bit. And we'll work with them to swap out maybe that a low-volume liner for a higher-volume liner or, um, whatnot. And, uh, as we continue to, yeah, try to spread the word on ZipFit, um, we work with a lot of the best boot fitters worldwide. And, uh, ideally it means that customers can pop into their local boot fitter and, um, check out ZipFit in person because, uh, it's one thing to have a really great fitting— yeah, really great fitting, like boot for a season. It's another to have that same consistent fit for 800 days on snow. Um, and we've got a couple skiers who are well over 1,500 days in the same liner, and like, I'm sure those things smell bad.

Wow.

But, uh, but they love how they feel. Yeah, they love how they feel, and that's, that's really cool. So as I said, toast falls butter side up. Like, I, I feel like You know, in some ways I manifested like really wanting to work with this brand. And one day my phone just rang and it was like, all right, we're doing it. Like, let's go. Um, and it's been nothing but a really, really cool adventure so far. And, um, I, we got to design a touring liner last year. So that was the one liner I omitted was the GFT, which, uh, we worked with some of the best mountaineers and, uh, kind of uphill athletes in the world to create a liner that that skis downhill as well as any of our other Zipfits, but has a better range of motion on the uphill and prevents friction and, and like blistering through your heel for uphill movement. So yeah, it's been great. Cool.

Awesome. Yeah, I, I mean, I should say, uh, at this point, if people, people are now interested, the best place is, is zipfit.com to go to.

Yeah, to check it out. Um, tell us what you think of the website too. We're still like, we're, we've been working really hard on it all, all, uh, summer and fall, and our, our web design team, uh, and development team would love to hear any feedback. But, um, yeah, we've got a dealer list on there so you can find your local ski shop that might carry Zipfits. Um, we're working hard in, in North America to just have a more uniform presence for our products in, uh, In Australia and New Zealand, you know, there's only a couple shops, but they, they are there. Um, so, uh, check out zipfit.com. Through Europe, we're, we're growing quite a bit as well. Um, and if you have a chance to get them on your feet, I think you'll, you'll understand when I say like they feel different. Uh, it's a really, it's a different experience.

Yeah, I'm, I'm very keen that they're, uh, they're going to be waiting for me and in America for when I land just after Christmas. So I, I'll, I'll definitely be in touch to let you know. And, uh, and it's great to know that, that 1 day, 2 day, around day 3, like, like, wait, let it, let it sort of sink in. Around then you're looking for like the fit to really be kind of refined.

Yeah, we, um, we make a product that's customizable, so like all of our liners you can add more cork to. If you have a narrow foot and even our high-volume liner is not enough to really keep your foot secure, even in a low-volume shell, you know, you can add more cork material to the tongues, to the ankle ports. So there's access ports kind of over each insep in the liner. Yeah. As well as—

You see that?

—behind the tongue in the top. Um, so you can add more material and dial in that fit. And again, like cork doesn't harden, so it's not like a one and done foam injection. If it didn't set right, if you weren't perfectly still, like tough luck. Um, work on it, tweak it. Like if you like working on your own ski stuff, if you like tuning your own skis, if you like whatever it is, like We encourage you to play. Exactly. We encourage you to play with your liners and your boots and swap them between different shells. Um, like, you know, if, if you think, you know, this liner, when you get your liner, Tom, if it's not the right fit for that, uh, like new Podium boot or whatever from Fischer, like maybe try it in a 95 last boot and see how it feels in there. And and play around with it. I know a lot of folks aren't in a position where they own a suite of ski boots, but ideally I think we can get the right liner and the right fit adjustment to make your skiing just a lot happier. Yeah. And that means performance, comfort, and like consistency in the boot feel every day.

Yeah, yeah, thanks so much. It's been a really cool chat. I've enjoyed hearing some of the history, where Sven came from, just sort of what goes into a premium liner like this. Like, thanks so much for your time, and hopefully it helps some people out there find some more enjoyment and a better comfortable experience in their ski boots.

Yeah, well, Tom, you'll have to do a little follow-up after you skied your Zipfits and let people know what you think. But, um, absolutely, thanks for having me on, uh, and appreciate all the work you do, both, uh, spreading, spreading love in the ski industry and also, uh, um, yeah, making people feel more confident on their skis.

Thanks very much. This episode is brought to you by Carv, the digital ski coach. Now, one of the features I've had the most fun with all time is simply the fact that Carv tracks every single turn you make. I treat it a bit like Strava, so at the end of the day it tells me exactly how many turns I've done, and those numbers keep adding up across the season. So last season in Australia, I had a few days where I was doing nearly 2,500 turns, and my legs were tired, but it was really cool to try and have that number there motivating me. And I'm quietly working my way towards my 1 millionth turn with Carv. So the other metrics I've been diving into lately, and these are new for this season, are very unique and these are turn corridor and turn radius, and I don't see many skiers using them, but they tell you a lot about the shape and flow of your skiing. So the turn corridor shows you how far you're traveling across the hill, or the time almost between apex to apex, and how long you're taking to transition, while the turn radius measures the actual arc you create once you start the turn. So these can be different, you can have like a very wide corridor, say 18 meters, but a lower turn radius, or the other way around. So when you compare the two, it opens up a whole world of experimentation, and it would be a bit like a race coach will set different types of race courses to influence a racer or skier to change the timing and mix it up. So I encourage you to look into this if you've got Carv and play with it and see if you can manipulate it, because it's only going to improve your versatility. So I keep my Carv on my boots every single day because you never know quite know when like a change in technique or or a new ski resort or skis will show up in the numbers. And it's great at the end of the day being able to check that, or even after the fact. And I'm really looking forward to the day I open the app and I see turn number 1 million. So if you want to explore your skiing in a completely different way, check out Carv, the digital ski coach. And thank you team for sponsoring this episode.