Deb Armstrong and Tom Gellie - Your Questions Answered

Hey skiers, welcome back to another episode of the Big Picture Skiing podcast. We have Deb Armstrong with us again today. Now Deb is great to talk skiing with, being a former Olympian, a coach, and a passionate content creator herself. We cover a lot of really cool ground and really interesting topics, and that's mostly thanks to you because we asked for people to submit questions that they would like answered or discussed between the two of us. So in this episode, you're going to hear some of those questions brought up pertaining to what if you've only got 1 to 2 weeks a year to get better at skiing? How can you go about getting the most improvement? Are white pass turns a good exercise or not? You know, what are the 3 most fundamental things to teach if you could only teach 3 things? Like, great thought-provoking questions like this. In this episode, I really hope you enjoy this chat between us. I certainly had a great time, and Deb has an amazing mind, is a great thinker, and inspires skiers all around the world. So I hope this podcast leaves you inspired, ready to hit those slopes again with some new ideas. And speaking of new ideas, you can find new ones all on the Big Picture Skiing website and my app. It's where I put all my concepts, lessons, uh, designed to help you get better at skiing. So if you haven't checked it out yet, please do after this great podcast with Deb Armstrong. Before we did this, I put out a post with questions, and you asked your audience for questions about what we could chat about. And you know, I'm going to get straight into it. I think one of the great questions that was brought up is how to consistently improve your skiing when you're limited to 1 or 2 weeks of skiing a year. Your thoughts on that?

Well, first off, I love getting questions from our subscribers. It's really fun. It's an It's a neat way to connect. And you know, that, um, that's a, a huge, huge question. There is not going to be the silver bullet answer, uh, that may be a little bit different for everybody. Um, a few things that I'd throw out there to keep in mind: depends on what your expectations are, it depends on what you're looking for. If, if you're just skiing 2 weeks out of a year, um, what are your expectations? And for example, for example, when I was young, my dad was a golfer. He'd take me to the golf course. I didn't play golf much, and I'd hit a shot that was not a good shot, and Dad looked at me and he said, do not behave as if you expect to be good at this. Like, respect it. This is hard. You're not out here very much. So Dad would not tolerate my frustration. He would not tolerate me having a hissy fit. He would not tolerate my pouting about a bad shot. Like, I, you know, respect the game. So, so I guess what I mean is, is what are your expectations? And And then again, again, I'll relate it to golf. I didn't golf very much, so I kind of honed in on what I was happy with and with the amount that I was golfing, what was really realistic for me to achieve here. And I wanted to get really, really good at my game, really good at at my swing and what I could do. So how does that relate to skiing?

Um, ah, that's pretty well, really. I, I mean, I think pretty well given, yeah, people so have so much in their face about on Instagram and YouTube of seeing good skiing. So that expectations piece, yeah, I think that's probably the best place to start with advice.

That, that is, that's a toughie. That's tough. But another thing I'd say is it also depends on your expectations and your motivation. And you, you just have to understand that, um, your motivation, I mean, it, that's kind of what's going to guide. Like, if you're really motivated and you only ski a couple times a year, then I'd be working out. I'd be getting as strong as you can be because your fitness, your physicality, and your skiing ability, they're intimately tied in together. The stronger you are, you're going to progress more. The more comfortable you are moving. And for example, my physical conditioning trainer, Aaron Shaw, he's a specimen of an athlete. He's only skied like 7 days in his life, and I got him into black diamond moguls. I mean, this guy's strong, he knows his body. So if you're really, really, really motivated, then there are things you can be doing all year long that can relate to your skiing. So those, those things will take you a long way.

Yeah, I would agree. And then So I'm going to say, put some ideas out, like, because I've been thinking about this as well. And, and especially coming from Australia and the COVID period, I sort of was faced with this, still wanting to improve my skiing, but I couldn't really go out. And I knew other people also couldn't. And so how do you give people pieces and things to do when they're not in that 1 to 2 week on-snow period? And so I think there are a few things in skiing that are perhaps a little bit different from other sports. And, and so this 1 to 2 week skier that wants to improve, I would say look at a few areas. One would be being used to gliding and sliding. And I bring that up because I was speaking to a dad of Archie's, uh, friend the other day, and he used to be a bodybuilder. So this dude is freaking strong. But he said when he went to the snow, he was basically a lethal missile going down the slope because he didn't know how much technique and sliding— coming from Australia, he just had no experience with it. And so sliding examples he could be doing, just getting on a skateboard a little bit, rollerblades, anything where you're kind of— ice skating. Exactly. They're accessible to most Yep, surfing, right? Exactly. But anything where you're kind of moving on two feet but you're not propelling yourself with, with steps, um, I think would be, would be a really good place to start. And then, you know, most of the time people are used to doing what we'll do that— to say this guy got rollerblades, they would go out and do it on a basketball court or an outdoor, you know, flat arena. Skiing is not done on that unless you're cross-country skiing, and even then you you're going up and down. So I think then it's also being used to performing in sort of a world that is not flat, that has ups and downs. And so looking to get yourself in environments that, that have that. So pump tracks, skate parks, um, yeah, even small like this. It doesn't even have to be like a vert ramp or something, but just where it's not flat. And so you're used to like going up against gravity. Gravity pulling you.

Absolutely. That's so good. It's so good. And, and, you know, mountain biking for vision, mountain biking for vision is very, very good because skiing is about vision. There's, there's a lot of vision with skiing. And, and also with skiing is anticipation. So, uh, you know, and having your vision anticipating what's coming to you. And, and there is that with mountain biking, uh, a single track Um, there's a lot of crossover there.

Absolutely. Yeah, so those would be my things. So I think there's a couple of like great takeaways there, like expectations— don't expect to be slaying it straight off the bat or hitting golf balls to the— to into the hole. Um, and then I think in this offseason period, just look at what, what are some elements of skiing that you maybe don't have a crossover from, because Like you said, your friend, your trainer, physically fit, but I bet you he's also probably any sport because he's played sports all his life.

That's right.

He'll pick it up.

That's right. But there's something else as well. And visualization does help. And you talked about movement and this fits with the motivation piece. I mean, when I was on the US ski team, I had my mental gym. My mental gym was in my house. I went to this space and I, I internalized, I visualized, and there's no question about that, that carried over to the slopes. And if you're real motivated, spending some time visualizing and thinking about that movement, anticipating movement, whatever sensations you have experienced on the hill, good sensations, thrilling sensations, positive sensations. Try to channel those. Remember that and, and visualize that. Get ahead of yourself. You mean getting out to the slopes?

Yeah. And I would say that's, that's a really good point to say that, you know, ski season's wrapped up in Northern Hemisphere. Maybe it was last month they went skiing and did, did have some great days. I'd say that's like just to maybe frame the visual, visualization. Probably like you said, visualize what what you can do, because I know in my surfing, which is what I'm trying to get better at, I find it really difficult to visualise what the pros are kind of doing because I've, I've not even close to that. But I've got some, had some really good turns and waves where it really, the feeling is stuck in me. And from there, I can maybe take a little bit of a visualisation leap, you know, 3-4% ahead of that. And that's where my brain can kind of go. And that's all you need to do, right? You just need to get— repeat what was good.

Yep, yep.

And then just the fraction beyond that, maybe try and imagine what, what that's like.

Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah.

So hopefully there's some good advice for some people. Now, Deb, before we kind of go any further, because, you know, people are asking for your opinion on these things. And so you, you messaged me and said, I think it's probably good that we talk about what informs, what informs Deb Armstrong. What are your biases? You know, where's your information come from? What is all your knowledge? And then your decisions and, and suggestions, where's, where's the source? So, right, can you speak to that?

Yeah, I think, I think it's good. I think it's important for people to know, um, You know, skiing is vast and there's a lot of viewpoints out there and there's a lot of expertise out there. And I don't really care where anybody's coming from. If you're a leader in the sport, just, just do what you do well, support your viewpoints well, convey your viewpoints, and then, and then people can kind of decide. Because I feel with skiing, it's a little bit like language. You know, you've got the, let's say English language, you've got the ABCs, but when we're putting words together, we have accent, we have a bias, we have our twang, we have our slang, right? You know, proper English or a Texas twang or an Aussie, you know, accent. So I kind of view skiing that way in some ways. For me, I was, a ski racer, um, and so I was rewarded, um, by finishing a course fast. And I never really thought about my skiing. I was very physical, very athletic, so I honed a, a cellular level of understanding, of balance, of pressure, of, of these things. And that was my rock, that was my true north. And then I wanted to learn how to communicate ski mechanics. I wanted to learn how to teach people to ski, and that, that was a whole new world. So I put on a different hat to gain these tools. And along the way, I was informed, um, uh, um, I think more in a cognitive, uh, analytic sort of way to, to view skiing. So then these two worlds come together. And while I was in PSA, while I was gaining my instruction certifications, I heard a lot of verbiage out there. I heard a lot of things, and I really had to think to myself, is that what I experience? Is that what I feel? Is that what I believe? Going, going through all of this along the way, I kind of cherry-picked, in my view, what I felt served me so well from the models that I learned from the Professional Ski Instructors of America, PSIA, and then cherry-pick what I took with me from my ski racing days and also through coaching alpine athletes. Uh, fast forward now, the way I— and my bias and, and the way I kind of characterize everything is looking at a, let's say, a World Cup ski turn, the, the purest form of, of being fast on a racecourse and what that takes. I just did a video on inspirational skiing, and, and with that video, I really focused on ski racers because at the end of one turn, you, you likely are going to be back and you sure as heck better do whatever you need to do to be forward into that next turn. I don't care how you get there, just get it done. And the best skiers in the world, the fastest skiers in the world, make that transition on a dime. They can go from being way, way, way, way back to getting their feet right where they need to be so they're forward into the next new turn. And that's inspirational, that's very athletic, it's technically very precise. I, I like taking that type of athleticism, bringing it all the way down to the beginner skier and working laterally out to mogul skiers or crud skiing or all of that. And what I find is the, the, the lessons and, and how I understand that World Cup turn I, I find the thread all the way down to the beginner, out to moguls, out to crud, and kind of the intermediate skier, and kind of everything in between. And that's kind of where I'm coming from.

Okay, yeah, no, I can, I can see that. And I, I, I believe, like, your, your cellular level kind of DNA of skiing, because those sort of early years, I think you will never shake the inputs of skiing to, to, to be the fastest one down the mountain. That'll, that'll always kind of be, yeah, like you said, your true north. So probably the heaviest, heaviest bias on, on things and, right, and what informs you, right? I thought it'd be a good segue into here because someone asked about, are there any, you know, have your beliefs changed over time in any particular way? I think there's a really interesting one because we were before the show discussing how people injure— not everyone, but people like to stay in their camps. You know, if you're— you view skiing this way, you think that's right, and then everything around it is wrong. And so you view it against your camp. Maybe you have a story on that, or maybe even something else. You're mentioning about discovering Rotary. Maybe there's a good place to, to go to do with this question.

Yeah, so There, there, I think there's two things, two parts to answer this question with the Rotary deal. Um, uh, yeah, I, I, I finished ski racing and you could say I was very much edge pressure, like full on, right? Um, and then, uh, broadening out my skiing and, and my skills, um, basic parallel turns, getting into the bumps, and really wanting to be precise and evolve my skiing and doing all of that well, I discovered Rotary. And I tell you, and you know, my view of what Rotary is, somebody else may call that something different. And I'm fine with that. I don't care. All that I know is what I'm doing, and I identify it as a rotary movement. Somebody else can say no, that's not the case, and, and that's fine. My epiphany for me was the steering of my legs, and also from my knee down into my foot, my lower leg, in my ankle, the range of motion, steering motion I had out of the foot, uh, and I viewed that as a little extra juice of rotary. Um, I mean, I felt that was my new secret weapon.

Did, did, did you feel you, you could suddenly ski bumps with a bit more control, and you had maybe— you were just given more gears, or—

I wouldn't, I wouldn't say more control, but there was a savviness there was a touch and a savvy, uh, that I felt that I had that was kind of invisible. People couldn't see what I'm doing, and they couldn't match my turns. Like, I could be on a flat catwalk, and just like being on a skateboard, you can pump it and you can just kind of keep going forever. I felt like I could be on that flat catwalk and work my rotary turns, not edging, not pressure, but just steering my— with the way I worked it and my foot to foot and, uh, and the way I stroked the ski through the rotary motion. To me, um, I knew it was highly skillful because I was a good skier and there was a lot of movement going on there. Um, And I'm like, wow, this is— I, I felt—

so how did, how did it come about? Like, why was it later after ski racing that you found this? Who was there? A person? Was there a situation? What was it?

Well, when, when I was going through my certifications with PSIA, I had to show the examiners, I had to show the selectors that I was versatile. That I could do anything they wanted me to do, that I was going to ski with my bias, or they were going to view me in a particular way, but I had to be able to show them I had something else too. Um, and so I knew my strength was never going to leave me. I didn't need to work on that. I, I wanted to work out broaden. And, um, so I, I really played with this rotary idea, and I just discovered some— I— and some developing some movements that were not necessary in my ski racing, or I would have used them differently in the ski— in my ski racing in the '80s on our long skis. We didn't have the shape, we had a lot of camber at the top of the turn. I had to manipulate that ski. I had to move that ski, get it into the snow, and then hammer down, right? As opposed to now, at the top of the turn, little bit of edge, a little bit of pressure, balance with it, bend the ski from the top all the way through the arc. I mean, we didn't have that luxury in the '80s, so So there would have been some, some rotary in the '80s with that longer ski that I would have used. But to implement rotary with the new shape ski from the top of the turn through in a short distance in different situations. And you know, that, that was, that was just, I don't know, it. It was— it just added flavor to my skiing, which was really, really fun.

Um, do you think this is something a lot of people that you skied with miss— are missing in their skill set?

Well, well, it kind of— um, I don't know. I, I don't— I don't know. I, I think, I think people do get in their camps. I, I remember early for me in PSA I felt that all that people were talking about was rotary. Well, I had a problem with that too. I mean, while I was falling in love with rotary, I mean, it wasn't all rotary. I mean, because I'm an edge pressure girl, but I love rotary. I love all of the skills. I love, I love skiing everything. Yeah. But you, you did ask earlier in the question, my beliefs, you know, has something changed? And so here's maybe an interesting answer to this question, because I've thought about this one a lot too. Um, my experience in the States, right? Yeah, because that's where I work with a lot of instructors and have had exposure to a lot of instructors. And, and then thinking about ski coaches, Right? What I have found, for example, when I came into PSAA, there were things that people were talking about, like, it's this. This is what we're doing. This is what we're focusing on. And then 5 years later, it's a little different. And then a few years later, maybe it's a little bit different. And I personally have never had that experience. And I think why I haven't had that experience is because my cellular level of understanding from my ski racing days that things hold pretty much true, kind of hold true. So it's not like, what is it this year? Now in ski racing and with ski coaches things do evolve and there's going to be new drills. There's going to be athletes on the World Cup that are, that are, you know, trying new things here and there. But it's not like it's extended release and then next year it's work into the diagonal and then next year it's rotary this or I, or it— I don't— I feel like in the ski instruction world, from year to year, or every couple years, maybe it changes more radically than for the skiers that are competing for time. And you can't— you don't— you can't afford such swings. It's like you're making incremental evolution as we go. And some of that, some of that incremental evolution as we go just relates to the equipment, and you're adjusting to the equipment, uh, and that's what's dictating a lot.

Um, so I don't, I don't know how across, but no, I know, I know what you mean because I, I see where you're coming from, and I think a lot of people listening would also you know, be sort of, I don't know, triggered, or just this, this is a very thought-provoking topic in terms of associations certifying ski instructors all around the world. It's a very tricky one, isn't it? Because there's no clock. I mean, you know, some parts like the Level 4 in Australia, you have to do a race. So that part is like, well, you're just not fast enough, or you are. But there's a lot of parts that are sort of, it's a bit ambiguous. Uh, you know, we're told like, oh well, it's based on ski performance and the ski-snow interaction. But as you know, you can have a ski, especially at a slower speed, doing almost exactly the same thing in the snow, but then what the person is balanced and looking like on top can be quite different. And if it doesn't fit the cookie cut, then you're done. And I, I think that's a real frustrating thing for people to you know, come up against because, yeah, it's really hard. Yeah, at times with how it's examined, but then I get associations need certain tasks and things to measure and tick off to give a certification.

Well, yeah, and I don't— it's not a good or bad thing. I think it's being aware, you know, with our associations, they're very large. And when you have large association, that a lot of people, that's different ages, that's different motivations, that's different understandings, that's different skill levels, that's different bias and egos and human nature and people being people. There's, I mean, it's an infinite number of variables there. To steer that ship. In ski racing, it's just the flipping clock. So it boils down to the essence of it pretty darn fast. Like, we're not going to have a whole lot of discussion about this. It either works or it doesn't work. Um, and now then people will say, well, that's great and fine, but, but people aren't making ski racing turns. So, but for me, with my bias, where I'm coming from, and what keeps things really consistent for me, uh, is that I always have that true north to go to that I know works. And then I can work backwards down to the intermediate level skier and relate it, relate these skills. So, and I'll say, I, I had a conversation with Josh Fogg a, a, a national team member with, with PSAA. Huge respect for Josh, phenomenal skier, unbelievable. He delivered a clinic, he blew me away. It was world class, it was so good. This was just a month ago, and I was riding up the chair with Josh, and I'm like, Josh, that was so good. Um, But essentially, in my view, that was content that a ski coach was delivering to the ski racers 10 years ago. Why is it— and so I asked Josh the question, Josh, why is it taking so long for this really good content to be presented now when In ski racing, I— we were teaching that to 12-year-olds 10 years ago. So I asked Josh the question, how can you accelerate this, Josh? You know, we need you. You are so good. You're the messenger. How can we get this to the masses quicker? Like, I, I felt that there is a lag and a delay. From where, for example, I'll use another example. When shape skis first came out, right, I felt that we were discovering shape skis. So there were a lot of people that were moving very laterally across their skis, getting too far inside, taking pressure off the, the outside ski to, to really effectively bend it, to, to bend an arc. A deep arc, a tighter arc. And I'm thinking to myself, why are people moving away from their skis? They're moving across, they're moving laterally. Stop this! No, that's out of balance. You're out of balance to the inside. And I, and, and I, I was saying, move with your skis, move along the length of your ski, don't do all this lateral stuff. And that was 20 years ago. Well, now That's how people are talking. So I don't know, I maybe I just sound really arrogant. I probably do. But what I'm trying to say is that for me, my true north hasn't really changed. It that I continue to learn and I continue to evolve. And what is shifting in my true north is teaching people and is my passion about communicating skiing and teaching. But from a technical standpoint, for me, it— the essence of it has always been the same.

This episode is brought to you by Carv, the digital ski coach. Now, one of the features I've had the most fun with all time is simply the fact that Carv tracks every single turn you make. I treat it a bit like Strava, so at the end of the day, it tells me exactly how many turns I've done and those numbers keep adding up across the season. So last season in Australia, I had a few days where I was doing nearly 2,500 turns and my legs were tired, but it was really cool to try and have that number there motivating me. And I'm quietly working my way towards my 1 millionth turn with Carv. So the other metrics I've been diving into lately, and these are new for this season, are very unique, and these are turn corridor and turn radius. I don't see many skiers using them, but they tell you a lot about the shape and flow of your skiing. So the turn corridor shows you how far you're traveling across the hill, or the time almost between apex to apex, and how long you're taking to transition. While the turn radius measures the actual arc you create once you start the turn. So these can be different, you can have like a very wide corridor, say 18 meters, but a lower turn radius, or the other way around. So when you compare the two, it opens up a whole world of experimentation, and it would be a bit like a race coach will set different types of race courses to influence a racer or skier to change the timing and mix it up. So I encourage you to look into this if you've got Carv and play with it and see if you can manipulate it, because it's only going to improve your versatility. So I keep my Carv on my boots every single day because you never know quite know when, like like a change in technique or a new ski resort or skis will show up in the numbers. And it's great at the end of the day being able to check that, or even after the fact. And I'm really looking forward to the day I open the app and I see turn number 1 million. So if you want to explore your skiing in a completely different way, check out Carv, the digital ski coach. And thank you, team, for sponsoring this episode. And so how did Josh reply?

He was totally in agreement with me.

But now, what was his solution?

Well, he doesn't have it yet, and he's a smart man, and he's trying to figure it out. And I hope you watch this, Josh, and you're going to remember this and just go, yeah, you know, he, he heard it.

Hmm. Yeah, no, I think that's a, that's a good point. It's, it's hard, like you said, with the— when there's a big broad number of people, uh, and maybe we're keeping context of associations, how do you get great messages and, and, you know, like really important fundamentals of skiing across to everybody so they're in agreements? And then, and then they can maybe understand when other things are brought up, like, oh, this year I know at my ski school someone's focusing a lot on on this thing, you know, whatever it is, the diagonal, you know how you said those, those things always come up, like trends, and they're good. A lot of those things are really good. But yeah, I think, uh, there's a good point in there that there are fundamentals in skiing that, you know, I think should always be brought back to, uh, in order to help people keep going towards their own sort of true north of, of skiing. Yeah.

And I want, and I want to be careful, and don't get me wrong, um because for me, I've had the privilege and the opportunity to cherry-pick. I can cherry-pick because I've had access to the racing world and coaching and access to the instruction world. And, and so they're, they're— neither one is perfect, you know. The— on, on the coaching side of things, there, there are areas that need to be— that can be improved upon, and and, um, that, that I've been able to bring from what I've learned from the instruction world in PSA to that, that have served me really well. Um, so it kind of goes both ways.

It does. Uh, I'm gonna go on to one of our viewers' subscribers' questions. How about, uh, inside knee, inside foot? And maybe they're, they may be two separate things. You want to Do you want to discuss some of your perspective on that?

As much as I can in words without standing up. One, I don't know, I've got my surgical arm here. I'm kind of playing with this. I had surgery just a few days ago. But yeah, as much as I can without confusing people with my words. I'll say that in the last couple years— earlier we were talking about any new ideas, any idea changes, right? What I would say is I'm constantly cycling around to different body parts kind of as an emphasis. We need them all to work together appropriately and all that, right? But the inside, um, is, is really an awesome one, and it's a focus that I've really enjoyed this last couple years. I've loved it. And in the simplest terms, the way I think about that inside knee, the inside leg, I think about that inside knee, and I, I think of it like I don't know, let's just say the general, the general of the army, right? Like, like it's the brains of the operation, that inside leg, that inside knee. It's the brains. It, it really kind of helps with, with fore-aft. It can really help with fore-aft. It, um, it can, it can really help, uh, with edge angle, you know, the shortening, lengthening, establishing edge angle. Um, so the alignment of that, that inside leg, the alignment of that ankle, the alignment with that knee, the way that, that whole inside half with the hip, the knee, the ankle work for stacking, um, is— that's, that's the general. That's running the tight ship. You know, that, that running the tight ship, like, we've got this under control. And then the outside is the army, the, the masses, the, um, you know, the, the power doing the work. But if you don't have discipline, if you don't have discipline of that inside leg, then you're gonna— you're not gonna have that control of the army. You're not gonna have control of all that power and the forces and the, the the, that you've got out there. So, um, those two work together and complement one another in completely different functions, but one's not going to work well without the other.

Yeah, totally. It's, I mean, you got two skis, they're not connected like a snowboard where you're strapping your feet to this one piece of equipment. They've got their, they can have their own minds.

Moving off.

And it just brings— I only spoke to a guy, Ryan Napton, the other day, who's absolutely creative mind in snowboarding, and he just loves carving. Used to be a pro freestyler, but, uh, he just is obsessed with the perfect carve. And, um, you know, I do— we were drawing some parallels there. And yeah, in skiing, yes, definitely the power and alignment comes to the outside leg, but you've got to be able to carve that inside one just as well. And I, and I personally, because I'm a telemarker before I was an alpine skier, I had to learn that because my weight is more on telemark skis 50/50. And the only thing that pushes me more to the outside of my telemark skiing are the, are the turning forces. But my balance fore and aft, more 50/50 between the feet. So I had to learn to control that inside ski very early on.

And yeah.

Activated, and it really, really helped my alpine skiing, I think.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah. So, okay, what's your favorite drill to help inside, uh, ski foot knee activation, discipline, uh, awareness, whatever you want to call it? Is— or is there even a drill, or is it just like, hey everybody, put your darn brain on your inside leg and feel what's going on. Because if you can work your outside, like, sense— what is it? What do you like to do?

Oh man, you know what? Um, I wish I had thought of that earlier because I know I have an answer to that question, uh, but I'm not thinking of it right now. One, I've done a couple videos on that inside leg and it's kind of hard for people to understand. So, you know, I, I've done that.

Um, what about White Pass? I know I hadn't actually seen this, but you've spoken to Uh, Phil and Steve. Yeah, who it's named after. Maybe let's just leave that for a moment. Can you talk about that? Because I've, I've heard that the name is after a place called White Pass, which they skied at. Is that, is that right? And maybe you want to talk about it and then what you discovered they wanted the drill for.

Well, Phil— yeah, Phil and Steve were from White Pass. And, uh, just talking to Steve Mayer you know, a month ago about the White Pass Turn. I asked him, because you're hearing a lot about the White Pass Turn, okay, Phil and Steve, what's up with the White Pass Turn? And it, it came about from a mistake, um, that Steve— Steve says he does the White Pass Turn better than Phil. That's sort of their joke, uh, that Steve, um, was getting late Or maybe he was starting, I don't know, or maybe he was starting his turn too early. He maybe was trying to go too direct. I don't remember exactly what it was, but he kind of would got to the inside and he kind of would hover and hang and wait and then bang, then get out on that outside ski. But it was all, it was a mistake. It was a tactical mistake. And as a result, more of a technical mistake. It was not by design. He said it was terribly difficult to control, terribly difficult to manage. So from a ski racing standpoint, it wasn't a matter of technique that they were after. Now, I was with some, some skiers who um, were prepping in any way, going, going through various certification tasks and doing some high-level white pass turns. And it was awesome, highly, highly skillful, really, really cool and, uh, and fun. Um, I just, you know, it's a, it's a drill, it's not a basis of technique. I mean for my purposes. I think it's a, a fun task. It's pressure. It, it results in pressure late in the turn, which I'm not a fan of. I'm a fan of pressuring and establishing things high in the turn, in the moguls, in my free skiing, in a basic parallel. When I'm carving. I'm just into stacking and alignment and balance and pressuring and everything for the top of the turn. It's my view that that's modern skiing with the modern equipment. A little bit like, uh, late pressure of the '80s, the A-frame of the '80s, you know. Fine, kind of done with that. I So I don't go in a direction that is focusing on late pressure at the end of the turn, which what is what the white pass turn does. At the same time, watching these skiers execute the white pass turn in a very skillful way was really fun to watch. It was great.

Now I'm gonna say like, because I've played around quite a bit with the wide pass turn. And before I maybe go into what I've learned from it, I'm just— people might not know what we are talking about here. So just quickly, wide pass turn, say you're finishing a turn to the left, so your right foot's the outside foot, you've got all the pressure on it, you're finishing that turn. Rather than swapping the weight to the new outside foot, you keep the weight on that right foot and you initiate the first part of the turn— I don't know how long, you can vary it— but the, the start of the turn, for how long, maybe it's a quarter, a third, half, maybe even three-quarters of the turn, is then done on the inside foot. Um, correct? So would that be a fair description? Yep. And then, then you swap to the outside at that point after, you know, maybe it's, you know, a third of the way in or half or whatever, but it's opposite to the usual swap to the outside ski early, bounce on it early, pressure it early. Um, I'm going to say, because I like— I've played around with a lot of this, and because I don't come from a ski racing thoroughbred sort of background, I'm very much— I love playing with skiing, and the, and the, uh, what I love about skiing is probably more to do with, I guess, surfing creativity, playing with the mountain. Different skills. Bumps is probably my favorite thing. So I love, I love all that. So the white pass turn for me, I found was helpful, and I find it is helpful for other people for starting a turn with patience and getting the correct amount of inclination. And so, um, I think if you can start that and you don't steer, stivet skid, add any twisting to the top of the turn with your white pass, and you can get the right amount of inclination, then you're going to give yourself a sense of what we're talking about before— people that throw themselves too, too much laterally into the turn. So if you do that on a white pass turn, one, you're going to have to put the outside down too soon, or you're going to have to drag your inside pole, you're going to have to twist the ski, you're going to fall over. So I find it's helpful with that. Uh, the, the second thing I found, one of my favorite feelings in a ski turn, is extending my new outside leg almost back up the mountain to get pressure on it early and work, get a longer leg and be out of pressure and work the turn higher up. And so I've found if you get a white pass right— I don't think this is a thing, no one focuses on this in my opinion. They all just go start at balance and they're just kind of in this precarious position that is not where you want to be for a start of a turn. Totally agree, that part is, is crap. But if you're then conscious of this free leg, which would be the outside one, you can start playing with, oh, I can extend it, I can place it behind me more, I can wherever I want. It's, it's free. And as long as you're patient, you're not rushing to get into the fall line, you can then figure out how to get that new outside leg in a really good spot. So for me, it really helped that, and it helped me to be able to teach other people how to extend, get, get forward, because that leg is free and they can place wherever they want. Um, yeah. And so then you just start like, that's the new feeling now, don't do a white pass to get it.

Yeah, yeah. And, and that is— that's awesome. I mean, different ways to teach that. What you just talked about there at the very end the placement of the new outside ski or the new outside leg and your foot behind and all that sort of stuff. I mean, ideally, ultimately, that's what we're trying to do. That's what we want to do. So how are you going to get there? And if you can get there, having people go through this white pass, I mean, you know, however you get there.

Yeah, it's many ways to get there.

There's so many ways to get there. And what you described would be what the ski racer is experiencing, right? I mean, maneuvering that new outside foot in that very way, they're not going to do it with the White Pass Turn. Um, but, uh, how is it that you're going to get there? And, you know, just getting that sensation. I, I mean, I, I think that, I think that the White Pass Turn has, um, offered an offer, offered an awesome discussion for a fox.

Yeah, would totally agree. Would totally agree. Hey, so if you could only teach 3 things, what would they be? I know this one. I saw this one. I went, oh, that is really, that is tough.

Oh man. Here's the problem with that for me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something and then people are gonna hold it to me forever, you know, and I'm not, I'm not going to come up with, um, oh man, uh.

And can I just, I'm going to jump in here. I think why, like, I look at that and I go, I don't want to answer it either. You don't want to answer it either. And I think in a way that's kind of smart because I know in your videos you look at your student, you find out where they're at. And it's— and you, from there, you figure out what those 3 things are. And so you wouldn't necessarily say the same thing to me as your personal trainer friend, as whoever it is. You know, River Radimus is starting out his PSI Level 1. There are not these 3 things, right? And I think that's where people might— like, that's maybe not the right question. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's a coach.

It's a, it's such an interesting one. Um, skiing, skiing. There, there, there are coaches who think everything is, is measurable. Everything's measurable. These movements, actionable, measurable, right? And, but to be able to act upon something, to be able to flex your ankles, to be able to move, work forward, to be able to act, to be able to move, to be able to slide. Takes a psyche, takes a desire, takes heart. Takes heart. Like, you got to want to do it. So I think one thing is, you know, with skiing— skiing is heart. Skiing is a balance of of actionable items, taking action, doing this task, flexing these joints, figuring out, you know, how to move, and then deciding if you really are gonna do it or not. Like, if you really—

you as the coach, you as the coach, if you're only allowed to teach— that the question was teach 3 things. So then I guess it would be you Do you teach, do you teach heart? Do you—

I'm gonna, I'm gonna touch on it because we're gonna like, are you gonna get perpendicular to the slope or not? Like, right?

Yeah.

Are you going to get perpendicular or not? And that's heart and psychology and a willingness to move So yeah, you know, I am going, you know, dealing with the person. I want to reach them where they're at and motivate them and find them and encourage them and help them feel safe. And, you know, you can do this, like, you can relate to this, you can relate to this, you can get perpendicular to the hill. You want to know why? Because you walk. And when you walk, you're working forward. And there's a moment in your gait where you're suspended out of balance, and that new foot better come forward and catch you, or you're going to fall on your face. And you've learned that since you were 1 and started walking. Like, but that's, you know, so there, there's heart to going there. So, so that, that would be one thing. Like, we can't just be— because I can talk fore-aft, but the problem is, is fore-aft, you and I are going to be coaching fore-aft until the day we die. It's never going away. We're always going to be teaching fore-aft and And we're good at what we do. So we've gotta come up, there's got to be some other ways to get people to be motivated to work for ACT. You follow me?

I'm following you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Like if that's such a critical thing that we all know we have to keep coming back to, then that's probably a good thing to look at. Are there things we're missing?

Are there things we're missing? And are you the coach who's saying, get 'forward' all the time. Like, Coach, you're not— you're not getting it done. I'm sorry, Coach, stop like now. Like, okay, I'm gonna challenge you, Coach, to never ever ever again say to your athlete, 'Get forward.' Not adequate. Doesn't work.

Yep.

Your athlete is not forward, obviously. How many times have you told them to get forward? It's still not working. Like, stop. Like, don't go there anymore.

Yeah, that's not— I 100% agree with that one. That's because I think globally, that, like, if every coaching conversation was recorded by AI, you know, AI is just all the thing at the moment, and it was like, what is one of the most common coaching cues in the world given from any ski coach's mouth? You're not forward enough, get more forward. If that's the most common response, then that's probably the most common problem. You Yet if you're still repeating it, you're not fixing the problem.

You're not fixing the problem. So, so, so one part of that answer, the 3 things, is, is addressing, addressing, addressing the individual's heart. Uh, you know, are they afraid? Are they, are they recovering from an injury? Uh, what is going on? Like, how can you relate to what they know? How can you relate this to what they know so that they can understand being perpendicular to the slope so that they can be moving down the hill so that they can maintain proper fore-aft balance, just standing over their feet on the pitch? You know, that's huge.

So I think, you know what I was— so then on that, if it was like, right, this is Tom and Deb we've just got to that, and then there's this classroom of people saying, so what's the first thing? You know what, I reckon one of the fundamental things would be, uh, understanding perpendicular to the slope.

Yeah, right, that's huge.

If you can then— no, then people could, uh, could gauge, and they could probably even watch video of themselves from the side of the run and go, yeah, I wasn't. We wouldn't have to tell them. And so it'd be self-motivated, self-driven. So that's There's probably with 10 minutes in, we kind of got it. We got one of it.

We kind of a little bit got one. But then there's people that want the silver bullet, like, okay, what do you do? How do you do it? You know?

I know. Yeah.

And, and that, that is so complex because you're dealing with people's equipment, you're dealing with people's anatomy, their ankles. Like, when I was the U10 coach at the Steamboat Springs Winter Sports Club, I was dealing with 8 and 9-year-old kids. and before the season started, we had 100 kids. We looked at every child's ankle flexion. We measured it. How can they flex their ankle? How much dorsiflexion do they have? We wanted to know. So then I remember this one, this one athlete that we had, this one little kid He could not get forward to save his life. And I remember checking out his, his dorsiflexion, his range of motion in his ankle, and he just didn't have any. So we went, we were able to early in the season address that with his boots. And this was a long time ago. I don't remember exactly what we did. But I remember talking, I was the head coach of all of these kids. I remember talking to the coaches, the coach who is in charge of this child saying, let's try to tackle this with that kid's boots. Let's get this or that done or whatever. So that's an issue, right?

Do you know what I think has just triggered a bit of a thought from me? I do think, I do think your ski boots, getting your ski boots right and understanding what a good ski boot fit is, is really important. And this is something, this is just anecdotal from my experience with things, but I don't know if you've noticed, maybe in the last 12 years or whatever, ski boots definitely went through a trend of going more upright. Do you remember like the ski boots? Oh yeah, because then people are less fatigued and, you know, they're not forcing this stance. I almost feel like it's gone too far because many of the intermediates I ski with, they're like, Tom, if I get any more forward or flex my ankle more, I'm going to be kissing my ski tips. I'll tell you a story. One guy in Whitefish, friend of mine, we're skiing together and, and we went through this. I'm like, look, you look, here's the video. And he could see it, it's just no ankle flex. It's like, we got to get to the bottom of this. So we go back to his, his house, we're taking our boots off. and inside his boot is an Intuition double overlap liner. Okay. So the ski shop had sold him these boots, and then because Whitefish is not— doesn't get much sun, uh, nice warm pair of liners. But the double overlap was basically thick at the front and blocking all his ankle range. And so as soon as we took that out and we put in— he actually got new, new boots. And now a more advanced boot which had more forward lean for the get-go, instantly skied better. And he was like, oh my God, all these things you've been telling me about, I can do it now. And, um, and then, yeah, so I just feel, I feel like there's a few things in terms of trends in the ski industry in that, in that sort of intermediate, semi-advanced boot. Boots aren't— don't have enough forward lean. So I think people are stuck there, and I think that's inhibiting, even though they might have the most flexible ankles in the world. The other one I've found really interesting lately is ski boot tongues. I never thought the tongue would have that much of an influence, but the tongue— like, you have to try this. You have to get a tongue that is really stiff across the intersection where the ankle is, and you could put in a boot that has the right forward lean and everything, it, it messes it up. Like, it's crazy. I, I've tried it with one pair and my Fischer race boots. And I actually went back in after one run. And this is back when I, when I had Archie, and so I'd swap with my wife. She was, she was then on baby duty and I was out. I was like, right, I've got 2 and a half hours, I'm not wasting this. I went out, I was like, no, I have to go back home because I'd swap these new tongues out. I just couldn't ski. And it was just the intersection, super stiff. Anyway, I think my point there is the ski boot, you could be a great athlete, but if you're putting a environment that inhibits you, you're never going to get doing all the things people ask about.

Yeah, you know, 100%. I mean, equipment is so key there. You know, I've skied with a lot of women who are very good skiers and they're on a ski that's not enough of a ski for them. It's not stiff enough, it's not lively enough. It's kind of dumbed down. I'm like, you need more of a ski. Like, you're kind of— you're just not getting the feedback. The feedback.

So, yeah, I think that's a great one because you've made a video about— I love that you did this because you search the internet most Most ski recommendations are like, hey, get a 95 all-mountain Underfoot ski. Yeah. Thoughts on that? Because that was a question. People like equipment recommendations. Yeah, let's touch on that.

Well, I think— I mean, bottom line, right tool for the job. Right tool for the job. Right. And we do that with other things in our life. I, I think the problem and the trend that we have seen in the States, and it's been for a long time, um, is that the ski is getting wider and wider and fatter and fatter, and people are using this, and with a lot of, maybe with a lot of rocker, and people are using this equipment on the groomers, and the skiers just frankly suck. They just the skill level is not good. This, the ski is not serving them well, and it can't be a good experience. Like, it can't feel good. Um, I mean, I'm a purist. I, I was just a couple months ago skiing with Franz Klammer, with Klammer, Tamara McKinney, Phil and Steve Mayer, myself. I mean, we like to turn. I mean, yeah. We're, we're skiers. We are people who respect the turn. We love the feel of the turn. And every one of us is on a ski that's anywhere from, I don't know, I mean, a 68, 68. I don't think anybody was on a ski wider than a 70 underfoot. Yeah, you know.

And how was the snow that day? How's the snow?

And we, we were— well, we, um, we were skiing groomers for the most part and some moguls. Um, and there was—

and it was still sort of— it's not like it was hard or anything. You're like, oh, it's a hot— like, still pretty soft.

Like, you know, yeah, the moguls were— the moguls was soft snow. Uh, it was—

you could easily dig in.

No, it wasn't fresh snow, but the— but we all would have been skiing— oh, wait a minute, we were skiing some powder. It's in my video. We, we had powder that day too. Now it was powder on top of groomers, but we went up, we went up into the steeps and we were skiing mixed conditions. I mean, that was the only ski these guys have. They're, they're not skiing on anything else, which is the same with me now though, though as I am getting older, um, I— and in the bumps, I'm finding that a little wider underfoot is a little more forgiving, and I'm really enjoying it. I, I very much am enjoying it. Um, but yeah, uh, I— it's got— it's, it's, it's a stiffer one. I mean, it's, it's got some oomph to it.

Um, but back to the carving, like the tools for the choice, like tools for the job.

I mean, if it's a powder day, then I, I love that powder ski.

Love it.

It's so much fun. It's so— what a great tool. Yeah. Um, but I, again, it's my bias, and, and I talk about this. I do feel, generally speaking, that the, the, the skill level of the average skier in some respects has diminished, has gone down. And here's how I gauge that. In the '70s, if you went to the top of a mountain, you could not get down. You, you, you, you couldn't get down. You'd have to walk because it would be moguls, and you didn't have the skill level to get down. You could not turn through the moguls. So if you got to the top of the mountain You were an expert skier to get down. Today, with grooming and with snowmaking and with the wider skis, you can get to the top of the mountain and the slope is groomed. You don't have to know how to turn. You don't have to have much control. You might like going fast and you get to the bottom fast, but that's, that's not an indicator of skill level.

I'm also going to say, I'm going to jump in there and say beyond that, like, it's like if we're trying to sell them on this, it's not like, oh, it's not skillful. And if these people are like, well, I don't care about skill, I would say they're missing untapped amazing feelings. And that is the turn. I mean, think about all the turning spots. What's really awesome on a mountain bike? It's not just going as fast as you can down a fire road. It's the turns.

Yeah, I'm grateful for that, Tom, and thank you for saying that, because what I just said was epic, epic judgment in everything that I just said. But that's right, that's absolutely right. I mean, to talk to Phil or Steve, and a lot of people might not know who they are, Franz Klammer or myself, we just really love the sensation of the carve or the sensation of turning, or, or earlier in the, in the podcast, we talked about rotary, and I'm not carving, but the sensation of that— that—

exactly.

Deflection and shape turn. I just geek out on that. I know.

And I think that's like— I would say that's the main point here that I reckon you and I would try and get across and probably is at the heart of all our videos while we make videos and give tips on things. Is because we know the amazing feelings you get when a turn gets better and better and better. And there, and there are turns that are like full GS fast turns, so you're getting speed with it. And then there are also these amazing little whippy quick ones. But within that is a turn. And I think if you can learn to turn, that like, there's so much to it. And I want to go back to like the 1 to 2 weeks a year skiers. I want to say to them, I'm like, Hey, you know what, for your next trip, I'm going to suggest your terrain, you dial it back one. If you're always on the blues, go back to greens, get a more carvy ski, and just start from like really feeling how this thing can turn, because you will have a blast. And then, and then the ceiling of possibility of what you can experience, I think, will increase. And I think you, you'll— they'll, they'll find some consistent improvement. But if they're just swishing around on wide rockered skis, sure, like, but you know, they're missing, they're missing the turn.

It's a great, great, great feedback. I mean, a great point, a great tip. I agree with you 100%.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know what, I gotta say the final thing here is, and I know that this is a— this works because some of my online academy students, they go, oh Tom, I didn't trust you in the beginning when you said get off my 88s and get like a 72 underfoot. And then at the end of the season, they're like, it snowed 15 centimeters at my resort. I didn't take out my wide skis, I took out my narrow ones, and I had such a blast. And I won't go to those ones unless it is a proper powder day. That's the— back to the tool for the job. That's when it— when it's there. But they love the feeling of turning now, and that's only been possible through choosing more of a carving ski.

And that's been my experience as well, guiding people there. And they've had the same realization and experience. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, you know, all the famous ski racers you're skiing with, they've got at their disposal, they could probably choose any ski they want, any ski, anything. But they're addicted to a certain type of feeling, so they choose a ski. That serves that purpose.

That's right. And but then also, if you look at, uh, uh, the, uh, River Radimus, or, you know, World Cup skiers today, if they're, if they're out on a powder day, you're going to see them on a wider ski, and they're jumping and they're loving it, and it's the right tool for the job.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, awesome. Okay, yeah, I can see we both got worked up on that one. Hey, like, maybe heading to, to wrap this up, I know it's maybe in the last few years you moved to, uh, to Fischer, uh, you ski on Fischer equipment. And, um, I don't have any kind of deal or anything with them either, but I've gravitated towards them. I've now got Fischer boots and I like my Fischer CT skis, and I bought some, uh, wider ones, 90 Ranger, I can't remember, 92s or something for powder days. I'm really enjoying it. Um, yeah, what do you do? Do you like the stuff? And I know, you know, yes, you are, you have a bit of a deal with them, but yeah, what do you like about this stuff? Because I I like it, and that no one gives me any of this stuff.

Oh gosh, um, I, I like performance, you know. I mean, I, uh, and gosh, now this is, this is where I kind of get back to my default at a cellular level. Like if I get on a ski and I— it's like I, I— there's a feeling there, there's, there's something there, there's a performance that gives me feedback and, um, a liveliness, uh, and like, wow, I, I like that. I have— I never was the athlete like Phil and Steve Mayer or Bodhi Miller or some of these other athletes that are real techie and they're they're involved with, you know, building their skis, and that, that never was me. So, um, I— when I get on a ski, I know if I like it, I know if I don't like it.

Yep.

And, you know, I'll tell you, my, my, uh, my Fischer Ranger 102, 102 underfoot, I skied that a lot this year. Um, and I really, really liked it. Uh, high performance ski. I used it a lot because I knew a lot of the guests that I was going to be skiing with were going to be on a really wide ski, and I didn't want to be on my Fischer 68 underfoot, which is what I personally like, when they were going to show up with the 92 or 100 underfoot. I wanted to be able to relate to them more And by the, the, after a couple days, I'd say, okay, you want, let you want to give another ski a try to have an experience. You've got me here. I could guide you through this. And we would do that. It would be a lot of fun. But, um, yeah, so you're, from me, you're not going to get the, the, the highest techie answers about the boots or the skis. I can just tell you that my cellular level of, like, for a ski tune, you know, I need a ski that's tuned well, and I can, I can feel it when it's tuned well.

Same. Yeah.

And I, and that's important to me. Um, and, uh, I can feel that, that lively ski and that fits with, you know, where I like to pressure and, and lets me release. And, um, and, you know, yeah, a little bit about, again, about my bias. I mean, when I'm skiing, uh, I like to stroke the ski, whether it's my rotary, the kind of a full stroking motion through steering all the way through, or, or pressure and stroke, you know, fore-aft through the cuff of my boot, through my boot sole, you know, forward, and then I've been feeling my whole foot and then back to the front and then feeling the whole foot, kind of that full strokey sort of feeling. I really like that. And again, that's kind of my bias and that's the fun and liveliness and not being stuck in a position that, that to me is, is dull and not inspiring.

And have you jumped on some other ski brands again? And this is not like— well, I'm not trying to point out like, you know, who's better or worse here, but it's just that, that feeling thing, because, because it's right. And I guess maybe the, the end point, so people know what I'm getting at here, is like it's good to go test some different ones because you might find, yeah, like you're experiencing, there's just this feel of the ski, it's really good, it works for you, your anatomy, the way your technique is, what you do at different phases of the turn. Yeah, have you gone back and like tried this season? Did you like swap with a friend and they had their Atomics or Blizzards and you kind of like, you kind of felt the difference again?

You know what, I, I wanted to do that actually when I was in Taos with Tamara McKinney. We talked about that, and Phil and Steve, and, um, but frankly, we did not do that, and I did not do that this season. Only reason being is when I'm on the hill, there's always a purpose to it, and I just haven't carved out the time to make that happen. Like, I, I haven't been involved with Ski Magazine ski testing which would be the perfect opportunity, the perfect opportunity for that. I haven't made the time to do that. And that would be a big— I'd learn a ton from that. I like that sort of thing. I just haven't made it happen.

Yeah. Nice. Deb, thanks so much again for the chat and giving your perspective and insights. What informs you, your biases, you know, putting it all on the table and letting people know. I really enjoyed our conversation. I hope other people do. Maybe parting words, if, you know, if maybe people are coming across you for the first time and they don't know fully what you do and how they can find more about you or support you. Do you want to just finish up with that?

Well, I do have my YouTube channel like you do, Tom, and I've really enjoyed this myself. I love chatting with you. You're so passionate, so informed. The videos that you put out there, I love them. Such good stuff. And, you know, I'm doing what you're doing, very similar. I have my YouTube channel, Deb Armstrong Ski Strong. That's— you'll find me that way on YouTube. And I'm pretty organic about it all. I make a video at just when I'm moved by it. That's it. I don't really have a bigger agenda than that. But, you know, I've kind of worn every hat in the ski industry from being a ski racer to a, a director of a team, an alpine ski team. I've been a technical director of a ski school. I've been on the PSA national team. Um, but bottom line, I, I just am passionate about the sport like all of your viewers are and my subscribers, and it's fun to talk skiing.

Yeah, like next winter, can people— because I always get asked like, how do that— people want to ski with me, and that's a bit of a tricky one being I don't— yeah, anyway, visas and all that stuff. But, um, anyway, for you Are there ways people can actually take some runs with you? Yeah.

Thanks for asking the question because I'm not much of a self-promoter. I wouldn't even have thought about it. I, I do, my brand is Ski Strong, so you can, you know, you can find me in Ski Strong and at the Taos Ski Valley in New Mexico. I offer a Ski Strong experience. People can sign up and ski for me, ski with me in Taos. Uh, I'm also talking with Steamboat right now to offer some Ski Strong experience at Steamboat as well. Um, and so I think at Steamboat, the way it's going to work out, it's going to be more of a beginner, intermediate, and entry-level bumps in Steamboat. And then it's at Taos, it will remain more the, the upper intermediate and expert level skiing at Taos. Right.

Okay, good. Yeah, I knew there was a way people could, could get, get in and experience it firsthand, a ski experience from Deb. So yeah, glad you put it out there.

And, uh, through social media, I'll, I'll— and through my YouTube channel, I'll kind of get some dates out there to come. But through, uh, the Steamboat website, we're still putting that together right now. Um, there's all— there, there will be some dates as of now on the TAOS website.

Right. I'm going to put it out there. Next time we do something like this, I want there to be white stuff on the ground. I want to be wearing goggles, gloves, ski boots. I want to— I just think that could be really fun.

We need to do some video together. We need to ski together. That would be a lot of fun.

Yes. So let's, let's try and make that happen.

Yep.

But until then, yeah, thanks everyone for tuning in. Thanks again, Deb, and have a great day.