Finding Happiness Grooming The Mountain - Alina Jackman

Hey skiers, welcome back to the Big Picture Skiing podcast.

Today you're going to hear from Alina, one of the best groomer drivers in the world that I know of.

So she is responsible for smoothing out, making it consistent, giving you a perfectly prepared slope to make beautiful carved turns on. And I think it's really important that our skiers, snowboarders, people that enjoy the snow, that we appreciate the people that actually help prepare and give us the, the environment, the conditions to have as much fun as we do on the slopes. So I thought it'd be great to chat with Alina so you can learn a little bit more behind the scenes about what goes on to make that slope prepared, perfect, able for you to be able to do your best carve turns. So in this episode, you're going to hear how Alina, her dream was from a little girl to become a groomer driver, and here she is at Fernie Mountain Resort doing it and is one of the best in the industry. You're just going to learn that her experience in ski instructing really helped shape her to become such a, I guess, conscientious and perfectionist when it comes to grooming the slopes. Also some of the scary situations she gets into, the science behind different snow conditions and how you've got to prepare the slope and adjust all the things that you've got to adjust with this huge snowcat to be able to make the snow as good as you possibly can. It's a fascinating episode. I think it's well worth listening to. With everyone out there who loves the snow, you're going to have a greater appreciation for these people behind the scenes that make this sport so much fun for us to enjoy. Speaking of enjoyment, if you've enjoyed the Big Picture Skiing podcast and learned something from these episodes, I invite you to go check out bigpictureskiing.com. It is fast becoming the most comprehensive resource for improving your skiing and teaching. Tutorials, webinars, and videos are categorized into useful topics that will help you solve any issue you may be blocked by in your skiing journey. If you've thought, hey, I'd like to ski and learn from Tom, then this is how.

Head over to bigpictureskating.com and become a member now.

Alright, let's get stuck into this episode with Alina Jackman on grooming the mountain. Alina, it is great to catch up with you. Now, for those who don't know you, tell us where, where you're calling us from. Where do you live nowadays and what do you do?

I'm from Threbo, but right now I'm living in Fernie in British Columbia, and I am a groomer and skiing enthusiast.

Yeah, awesome. And can you tell everyone, because I We caught up in Fernie just like 6 months ago, and I had no idea about this, but your childhood dream was to become a cat driver, a groomer.

It was. From the very first time I saw snow cats moving around the snow, I was fascinated with them. I actually used to think that they were Jedi training in the middle of the night when I saw the lights. I actually saw the lights before the machines. And then fast forward a few years, they were actually people. And, um, I had a very different life back then. I was a swimmer and at university and all of those sorts of wants didn't really ever seem like a thing until life happens. And I thought, why not? Threw my hat into the ring and It actually was a bit of a blessing because of doing so many years of back-to-back winters. My body was falling apart a bit, my feet, and just being able to do quality skiing more these days has been really great. It's made me fall in love with the sport again as well and have a career that will last as long as I can walk.

Yeah, that's so true. So for people that don't know, you you were a ski instructor. Like, that's how I met you. And so, yeah, you started ski instructing, you got right into that back-to-back winters. What was the shift like? If I wanted to become a groomer driver, where do you start?

Most of the time it depends on the situation. So every resort or country has different things. In Canada, there's no formal prerequisites, but usually a desire to learn, or anyone with heavy equipment operating is an asset. Being mechanically minded and being able to lift a certain weight is a huge deal, but most people get into it by going on for some ride-along shifts, meeting with the Cat driving team, and just basically putting a hand up and say me. For me, um, it's always— I think the biggest thing is anyone that has a desire to learn is usually going to make somebody that's a good groomer. And there's also tools available now through Prinoth and Piston Bully that have a version of online schooling which you can participate in. And there's also things like the Schrömm program, which is a ski area Resort Operations Diploma, which you can get an overview of all these things. But everybody's story is different. But just applying, there's nothing to lose by sending an application in.

Do you remember your first kind of shift, I guess you could say, where you were in control, like you're driving this thing? Where was it?

My first shift by myself or my first shift ever?

First shift ever.

My first shift ever was with an amazing operator named Glenn. Um, he's actually the cousin of Bob Kaus, who used to run rentals in Thredbo. He, um, really didn't want to know me at all or have time for me until we got chatting and had the connection of Thredbo, and that day he taught me a few valuable lessons that still stick with me. I remember I kept apologizing all the time whenever I would stuff up, and he said, 'Never be sorry for being out in the mountains,' which was amazing life lesson number one. And the second life lesson, long— going to a quick side note, he was actually a cat driver for longer than I've been alive and then had a bit of a detour in heli guiding for 15 or so years, and I'm sitting here with him going, why on earth would you quit being a heli guide? And he turned around and said, my surgeon said I could ski professionally for one more year and never ski again, or I could ski a little bit for the rest of my life. So he chose the latter and came back to cat driving. And in my mid-20s, that was a huge moment of Wow, I need to really look after my knees. I've been going hard. It didn't hurt the next day. And that just changed my perception of how I was living my life into looking after myself and putting me first and focusing on quantity— quality over quantity and wanting my knees for the rest of my life. And that day I kind of knew that this was a path, but that shift was terrifying. Amazing. It was terrifying every time I moved.

Where was that?

That was here. I did a very small amount of driving with Will Clifford at home a long time ago, but, um, that was a very different cat. Um, and Ben, my husband, he was actually a grooming supervisor at Thredbo for a while, and I was always really jealous of him, even though I loved my job in the race department. But when we moved, things happened and it was the perfect time for a change and I thought, why not? And the rest was history.

So what are you, when you first do it, say, say you're teaching me, I'm, I'm out for my first time driving this cat. What's the first thing you've gotta kind of figure out?

Driving the machine first. So being able to move it, getting a feel for the snow, how the tracks work. Usually most people would start driving in a straight line on some snowmaking without a tiller, so there's one less thing to worry about. The blades up in the air and just getting used to how the machine moves and how much you need to move the sticks back and forth, or if it's a steering wheel cat, how much throttle you need to give the machine, and then just fine-tuning it. So before being able to use the implements, you want to make sure the driving is autonomous. So that even might, might be moving it around in a turn or moving it through a side hill and just feeling how it grips the snow, and then just trying to understand how different types of snow perform. In an ideal world, it would be a nice patch of snowmaking that has been groomed a little bit where it's firm and not slidey, and just something that's really easy to travel over.

Yeah, because I think it just makes me think I take for granted so often when a slope is groomed. I mean, just even groomed at all, groomed really well, you know, definitely could just go and you enjoy your turns. Like, so, so you mentioned the tiller, there's the blade, like what When I ski a really nice run and it's smooth and consistent and grippy, what is going on when you're in the cat to, to produce that surface?

So it'd be a few different things. Sometimes it's luck of the draw with the snow consistency. So a good base is a huge one, and then just a consistent snowpack. So in the southern hemisphere, most skiing is predominantly snowmaking, and that in itself can open up a few different things. So there's a bacteria that's added to the snow just to help the nucleus form in more marginal temperatures, and that snow molecule is a bit more robust than what a natural snowflake will look like. Where in the Northern Hemisphere, depending where you are, a lot of resorts, the same, rely on snowmaking, but there's also the fresh snowfall In an ideal world, it'd be cold temperatures, not too humid, not too dry, like a -5, -10 with a firm base underneath. And yeah, it's a— I could go— so tell me about it.

Like, because the, the blade at the front, that'll take That's your way of like collecting snow, like say it's skis are pushed on the side and then you get it like so that's directed kind of under your tracks and then the tiller is then gonna— what does the tiller do and what can you control on the tiller to kind of help make a good surface?

The tiller does a lot, so it's the finishing product. So the blade will actually start the processing the snow, so it's putting in a lot of heat with the tracks and it will start munching it up really small. So depending on how much you blade is what the snow will do underneath. And then the tiller, in the end, you can control how deep it goes, whether the snow sits in the tiller for longer. So if a mat, if you make it flat, it will flow through, which is nice for fresh snow, or if you've got a lot of snow in your tiller, you can control the speed and then also the depth of cut. So, nice grippy, firm grooming. Would be your tiller just following behind you with not too much snow underneath. And the speed of which you're grooming also has a huge impact. So if someone is grooming too fast, it's kind— I use the analogy that it's like polishing a turd and rubbing it in glitter. Or you can slow the— or you can slow your track speed down and just let the tiller process gently, and then it has more time to catch up. And then the final product is the combs at the back. So after it's gone through these drums that are spinning at up to 2,000 RPM, the combs will smooth everything out and that's the result that you see. But the trick is— yeah, but the trick is the snow has to then set up. So if you were to ski on freshly groomed snow, it would feel amazing, but when that sets up, it'll be rock hard. So ideally snow would need around 8 hours to set up in a perfect situation. If you are grooming for a race course, you would need as long as possible. So the longer it has to set up, the firmer it will be. Yeah. But for everyday grooming, 8 hours is kind of the happy point there. But at times, if an application requires softer snow, like terrain parks for example, an operator might do all their shaping during the night and let that set up, and then there might be a couple of straight passes in the morning just to make it a bit softer for people.

I didn't even think about that. Like, that's, that's very considerate, isn't it? For the, you know, they're going to need it for landing jumps and, yeah, and off rails and that stuff. You're giving them a little bit more cushion. Hey, on the fast—

it depends on the weather too. It depends on the weather as well.

Yeah. On the fast grooming, too fast, like you're in a rush, is that when you get those sort of like— it's almost like you like sinkholes, not quite, but you know, it's like, oh, it's not consistent. You ski through and then it like, it breaks away from you. That like, can that happen?

Or, um, yeah, that you'll usually see that on a race course especially. So that can be two things: if someone hasn't been blading the snow and just driving over it, um, or just grooming too fast. So with those two things together, when you're skiing along and you can kind of feel that sort of motion. It could be the snow wasn't processed. Usually with like grooming that's too fast, it'll feel very scraped off.

Ah, right, okay. So say, I mean, Australia's had a pretty tough season this year. I'm sure you've seen from social media, that's the stuff. Like, that's, that's a really difficult year to, to groom. Yes, because I mean, you're dealing with you know, there's not much of a base at all, really warm temperatures. Like, how, how do you best deal with— I guess my question is, how do you, how do you best manage warm, kind of low snow season conditions?

Anyone that's driving a cat in the Southern Hemisphere right now is a hero. Uh, Every night they are battling, but in the warm conditions it can get really soul-crushing at times because climbing, climbing a trail can be challenging. Sliding when the snow is isothermal, even though there's not much of a snowpack, that snow, it's just like sugar.

Yeah.

And you can't really do anything with it. So if it's too warm, sometimes just letting the snow set up for a little bit, but time might not be. In anyone's favor. So you've just got to do what you can do. And at times you'll be grooming in those really wet conditions where the snow will spew out of both sides of the tiller, or you're trying to push the entire snowpack back up the hill, which is what they'll be doing most nights, or just consolidating where it's thick into a very thick run, quite often a strip of hope. Yeah. Just grooming that. Another tactic in the spring that is used a lot is for high-traffic areas, to groom those first in the afternoon and let them set up overnight. And there's kind of— depending on where it is, it's always challenging because you need the access to be safe on a snowmobile or for skiers in the morning. So doing an entire area and not having access and egress can be detrimental to a snowmobile if a glaze forms on it, which is quite often what you would see in the Southern Hemisphere. In the morning, you'd be skiing down and it feels like you're about to lose fillings, but then the next lap it's just creamy and beautiful, and then 10 minutes later it's slush. But in the mornings, just having a safe place for staff to get up and down the mountain, that's a soft pass, and then grooming for everybody else or sacrificing. They might— there might be a tactic to groom something later in the afternoon, and that won't ski that well in the morning, but it will ski really well in the afternoon. And the stuff skied in the morning will ski great first thing, but it will be mashed potatoes. But it's just a try anything and hope for the best kind of scenario. And some nights it'd be one person winching, pushing snow uphill for their entire shift and leaving the snow open for it to dry out a little bit. And then someone might come back a few hours later and try to groom that out. But it's— when it's that chat, when it's spring, it is— it can be really challenging, especially when you're a perfectionist and you don't see something that you like staring at you. And it's really hard to separate the fact that that is going to ski okay, and I've tried my best. And everyone out there is trying their best. That's something that—

you remind me, this season, the glaze, the glaze thing, uh, I think I skied the slipperiest snow on, on World Cup at Thredbo I've ever, ever skied. And yeah, it was, it was dangerous, really, really dangerous when that happens, because that's different. It, it was sort of ice, but, but I've skied on ice that if you have sharp skis, it's grippy. Can you talk about the, the, like, this glaze effect sometimes that happens in Australia where it's— yeah, do you know what I'm talking about?

Yep, it's the wind that does that and high humidity. And in the morning, usually it happens as the sun comes up, and just sometimes a light wind will just set that whole thing because all the moisture is coming to the surface and it's trying to dry out, and then it snap freezes. Um, funnily enough, the first place I ever had a boo-boo on a snowmobile was on that Top Pitcher World Cup, same morning. And, uh, yeah, it can be— that can be detrimental to a snowcat as well. A snowmobile will slide backwards trying to climb something like that. Cats, if their tracks are worn out or if you don't have ice picks, it can actually slide. I've seen that happen before. And it's just the right mixture and it doesn't take much. And sometimes that crust— I do remember a morning, I think it was 2011 maybe, but the whole mountain had to get regroomed because that had happened. And, um, it's different from—

it's different from like ice, like even a race slope prepared ice, isn't it? Because it's just not even got any— it's almost like no texture. It is like a glass because you said, like you said, there's that like moisture on the top, wind, and then it kind of just gets polished, like sets.

Yeah, it was, and it's usually an inconsistency with that. When that sort of happens, it's still warm underneath. So the whole snowpack with like, for example, an injected racecourse where the entire snowpack is consistent and the the moisture is very gradual throughout each layer, where with, um, with when snow's gone isothermal, so when the entire snowpack is just that slush, and the very top layer, there's so much moisture sitting in there that the wind will just put this film on it and just snap freeze it for however long it is. And some days, there's been some days even in Fernie where a section that we will try to groom something and it's a quiet day in April and that piece of terrain that may have been in the shade or in the sun for an hour is— you wouldn't be able to get an edge on it. Yeah, it's pretty crazy snow.

Yeah, yeah, I couldn't believe it. Now on to, on to like tricky surfaces to groom is when, when a run is really steep and they have to winch it.

Do you want to talk about that?

And, and do you find that's actually almost easier to groom? Is it harder to groom a steep slope that you're winching?

Uh, there's different challenges, um, with the winch. Obviously there's a lot more that could go wrong. So depending on the snowpack, the winching itself is quite simple, especially when everything's going well. But when you, uh, If the machine's working well and everything's fine, pushing snow uphill is pretty straightforward. It does increase the capacity to maintain traction, and then also it can increase the amount of volume you are able to move and process. So for example, a really steep slope, if we were using the example of World Cup, for example, on that bottom pitch, if it was a really warm day, you wouldn't be able to climb up that in a light cat without spinning out. Or if you were to drive down it, the cat could actually go sailing down there. So the winch actually just applies pressure in it with the rope. It just gives it— it's used as an assist so you can add the pressure when you need it, and it will just help the cat stay on the run to achieve the objective. But things can go wrong really quickly depending on if you've got any infrastructure in the way. So a common thing with some resorts is Keeping the rope safe. The rope will go quite further down than most people will expect, or depending on how you're turning around at the bottom, there could be a chance of hooking a snow gun or a building, getting in ferny. We've had times where they can get caught on the wrong side of a tree, and then you're there for a long time trying to get it out. What condition the rope is in. So a rope has—

is it rope or is it cable?

It's a wire cable. So, um, the rope that Prinath uses is like 11.1mm rope, like wire rope, and it's swagged so it's smooth. So if you think about a cable, like a wire cable where it's rough, a winch cable is quite smooth so it can go through a drum. Just, okay, without any issues. But the age of the rope is a big factor. So depending on what you were doing, if it was something really technical, ropes can break over time, especially if they've been soaring for so long over road edges or in terrain that has lots of rocks. Those sorts of things can happen. And there's more challenges these days because machines are quite heavier. And, um, you increase the weight, it also can make that big snowcat turn into a much faster toboggan.

Yeah. So on that, because when you, uh, yeah, you were telling me about some of the sort of like safety things in a cat, they don't tip over that easy because I mean, Fernie, there is some seriously steep terrain you're grooming and you like that. What's that chair at the very top that we skied off of?

The Polar Peak, yeah.

The Polar Peak, yeah. And one of your jobs you have to do is groom the access trail up there, which just looks like it's like a who dares wins challenge. Yeah. So I guess a couple of questions. How— tell us about the stability of a cat and maybe talk about this, that moment where you had a bit of a boo-boo on that bit.

The CATs are quite stable. They're pretty heavy. They can go anywhere between 6 tons up to 14.5 by the time you put with a full-length winch cable on it. Um, the Polar Peak in Fernu is kind of— it's one of those lifts where everyone thinks, oh, it's never open, but when it is and people get to stand on the top of that thing and look at the view, it's Every ounce of work gone into that is magical, but it's also a place where dreams can go to die, not just for cat drivers, for ski patrollers, millwrights. It's a place that's in really complex avalanche terrain, so the lift towers itself can rhyme over with ice, which means a fitter or a millwright lift staff will be chipping it by hand. And, um, patrol also have the role of maintaining the snow safety in there. So risk of avalanche is really high because there's a lot of exposure above it. And then for grooming, we have to try and deal with maintaining the road, but we can only enter the road when it's safe to do so. And basically every storm that happens, you're starting from scratch. Um, I had an incident up there a few years ago. Where the road was closed for 6 or 7 weeks. And if you're imagining a road straight on the side of a mountain that is all hard and drift, so the type of snow is quite different.

And how steep? Tell people how steep that, that, that you've gotta zigzag up.

Like, it's pretty steep. I wouldn't know the edge angles off the top of my head, like, but it's not a fun— it's more the exposure.

It's like a steep a blue run, like a steep blue kind of, at least. Yeah, pitch, right?

Yeah, but yeah, it'd be around 30, 30-plus degrees in a couple of sections. But the more challenging part is not having much space to move and then having very limited options of where to move the snow when you're done. So there's a switchback where you're basically digging out with one wing at a time Sometimes you're out of the cat and one bad move means the machine could fall off. Um, in my situation, 3 years of working at that place, many different operators and people coming together, we figured out that it was possible to winch that slope, which made it really simple. And long story short, I broke my own rule that day of rushing. There was a lot of radio chatter that day, people telling me to hurry up, and usually I am someone that silences that in my head, and I broke my own rule. So to try and get the task done quicker, I— with the angle of the pull was a bit awkward. So where the winch anchor was and where I was down low, it wasn't a nice, awesome pull. So too much pressure meant that it could move the cat laterally. So as I was climbing, um, I realized that I was not quite on the road as much as I needed to be, and when I applied pressure to move forward, the cat pendulumed sideways and I'm sliding down backwards. And somehow in, um, somehow in that short moment of time, instincts and training kicked in where my tiller went up in the air. I dug the blade down and was sitting on the road facing uphill below me. And, um, it was after the fact, it was terrifying during the driving. I just sat there for a moment thinking, oh my gosh, both tracks are on. Like, I'm still here. I got out of the cat, had a look, it was totally fine. I looked at where I'd slid down and thought, wow, that's every minute of training from every person I've ever worked with paid off in that one second. And then all we did was just pay out a bit of extra rope, put a snatch block to where the switchback was, and away we went. But the human aspect after the fact is what affected me in not a very good way, which was really challenging. And also for the fact that I don't really fit the stereotype, but it was a huge— I think I wouldn't say it was a failure, but it was one of those things where I am glad I made the right decisions in the moment, but I also had to realign of what I was trying to do with breaking my own rules of not rushing. The safety, safety is first.

Yeah. Wow. And it's hard. I mean, people who've skied or ridden that Polar Express chair can probably get a better idea, but it's hard to, for people to understand. I mean, Fernie reminds me of somewhere you go in summer to go rock climbing. You know, because you arrive and there's this side of a valley with cliff faces all along it, and then this polar peak kind of just comes off a ridgeline off the side of that. Is that, is that about right?

Pretty much. It is one of the most magical places at the top of the resort. Most of the rock is— there's so many fossils up there and trees that grow at elevation where they shouldn't grow. It's really unique terrain. It's absolutely breathtaking, especially on when you get to ride that chair when the weather's doing the right thing. Um, a lot of the time in Fernie, because of the way the weather systems go through, it's prone to a lot of ridge caps, so clouds that will hang over the ridge. And sometimes the ski patrollers will actually have photos and the wind is like barreling over the ridge and it looks like a surf wave. Every day is Every day is special up there, even the miserable days.

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And we're digressing here, but how many days is that part of Fernie open on average?

Depends on the season. Last year it had a really good run of being open. I think it was well over 20 days. Some years it might be 15, and probably the The worst season that I ever remember is my rookie season grooming. It was open almost every day because there was snow up there. It was sunny, it wasn't— the storms weren't crazy, and it was just beautiful skiing corn snow every day in the sun. And it depends on the year of like what the avalanche stability— that's a huge one up there is just all the avalanche risk up there because there's some pretty big parts. So whether it's safe to enter for a machine and public are they— are the patrol even able to access the area safely is a big one, and that usually comes first. It just depends on what the weather's doing and what the snow is doing. Yeah, another year is where there won't be a flake of snow on that piece of terrain because it just blows away.

Yeah, wow. Hey, so your, your background is— I mean, you're a ski instructor first. How does that do you think that influences your, your groomer driving and sort of maybe gives you, yeah, a different perspective on, yeah, on your, on your grooming?

I think having been an instructor is probably my biggest asset as an operator because I know how difficult it is to teach somebody, or to— I can relate to an experience of watching people that have a really hard time getting on a lift of what a truly flat surface means and being able to glide easily without effort. And as the skills of skiing are exactly the same through each level, the principle of grooming is the same, where if a lift isn't groomed well and it's lopsided or lumpy or somebody has to go uphill, already that skier is not thinking about how awesome their day is. They're thinking, this is so hard, and it's not enjoyable. And beginner terrain is so important. Any, any access to a lift and off a lift and roads, those are the most important pieces of terrain because everybody needs those. But the people that really need those are the people that are new to the sport, the people that are in ski lessons or coming back from injury and all of those sorts of things. The number one goal is providing safe access, but also wanting people to go home with a big smile on their face and in one piece. And bad grooming— not— it's never intentionally bad, but a grooming imperfection could be a career-ending injury for somebody. It could be a life-threatening injury if it's way on the other end of the spectrum, or could be the best day ever for somebody.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's such a good point. And totally, you know, didn't even consider it like the beginner area, grooming. And not just, you know, your job is not to just smooth everything out, but the pitches, the angles, kind of like getting people to be out, you know, not get stuck on traverses. All these things, if you don't have prior experience sort of being in that situation of where that sucks when it's not right, you just wouldn't consider it when you, you just smooth out the run, job done.

Absolutely. And knowing what a good pass looks like is a huge one. There's— every operator brings a different skill set, and there's definitely times where operators might just groom for themselves or see a pass and think it's fine and on to the next one. But there's all the little things of maintaining the snowpack for the best possible outcome for that day, but also thinking for weeks down the track that, okay, we're coming into spring, we don't have much snow. Things like filling compressions or pushing, like building up breakovers and things like that, because those areas are the ones that get worn out first. So quite often you'll see a brown line or rock starting to appear where there is a knoll. So being able to see those features and make sure they're fine. Or if you're coming down onto a road, making sure it's smooth so there's no huge compression at the bottom. Sometimes that's inevitable in Fernie. There's a lot of roads that go through major ski runs, and it's kind of a double-edged sword. If you try to smooth it out too much, it can be a hazard, and if you don't do anything, it can be a hazard. So it's one of those things that is based on what's in front of you, but Someone being able to know, have that relationship with snow where they can ski it and know that it will understand what they're doing is a huge, huge asset because they don't need to think. They're not winging it. They know what to do with their tiller to achieve the outcome. If I was grooming a race course, I would be grooming that completely differently than what I would be grooming a run just for the public. 'Cause for a race course, we want something really firm. You want it grippy, you want it to stay. And I would change my tactics a little bit on how I would groom that versus a run for the public where you want it to last all day, but you want it to be grippy and not icy and just you want everything to feel good.

Wow. Yeah. God, it's making me wanna ski so much.

Are you, are you?

Yeah, I bet you are just talking about this a bit. It's summertime. Finishing summertime here, but I bet you're, you're really looking forward to the, the season ahead.

I've been watching the webcams every day, and oddly enough, I think some of the funnest times I've ever had skiing at home were when the snow was brown.

Do you know what, it's so true. This season, although there's been not a ton of snow, I've had a lot of fun, and I've, I've learned a lot and made the most of the conditions there, that kind of wet, wetter snow. And yeah, it's, it's still really fun. It's way better than sitting at home, that's for sure.

Absolutely.

Hey, I had a question about technology. So I was speaking to Stuart Diver, the CEO now of Threadbo, and he was mentioning that the cats, the modern cats now, basically have this radar detection so they can they can read how deep the snow is, which is obvious, but then it gets sent back to like a central kind of geographical information system map that then he can look at and he can see like where there's a lot of snow on runs, where there's not enough, and then he can talk with the groomers and go, hey, we need to, you know, do this, and this is where snowmaking needs to be. Yeah, talk us through that, that technology, maybe starting with like the, the radar stuff.

It's pretty impressive, all of the technology. So Pistenbully have their version, it's called SnowSet, and then Prinos have their version called SnowHow. So what it is, is type— it starts with mapping, of mapping out the entire area and the resort area, and then all of the radar images will detect what the terrain looks like in the summer without any snow. and then it's kind of almost like a weather map. When you would look at it on a screen, it would show different colors for how much snow is there, and then it also tells you where the cat went. It could tell you what revs the machine was doing, what they were doing with their tiller, what speed they were going.

All—

it basically tells every— everything that that cat did, it will be able to send that back to a computer. But for an operator these days, there's no guessing of where everything is. So if it detects there's an area that there's a lot of snow, you can see exactly where you can pinch things from. Before that, there was a lot of value in knowing the terrain really well, and it takes years, it takes years and years to know where all those rocks are, where all of the terrain features are, where the gullies are, where road edges and all of those sorts of things. It takes years and years, and I developed my skill set and fernie from brushing all summer. When you're swinging a brush saw, you have a long time to really look at what's underneath you. And the fact that there's technology there now that can do those things, it's game-changing. It's absolutely game-changing. It make— can make the season last longer. It's a can lead towards a better product and a more consistent product. It's more efficient. So instead of pushing in the wrong spot for trying to steal snow in the wrong spot for an hour or two, it can show you exactly where the snow is and you can use that snow.

Amazing.

Building a snow road, you could build it in the right spot where it's already thick. In Fernie, the resort hasn't got to the stage where it's got the snow depth software yet, but maybe one day we'll get it. But just the introduction of the GPS software, it's pretty amazing. It's a good training tool. The only thing that those soft— the only thing that those things don't dictate is the quality. So it's kind of challenging. You can see really good numbers on the screen, or you could see really good numbers on the screen, a really good snow depth, but it won't tell you what, how it actually skied. Yes, yes. Skiing quality is subjective, but it won't tell you whether, you know, it looked— may have looked really good in the morning, but it was just glazed over, and, well, there was chunks in the grooming with cookies and those sorts of things. So going into really fine-tuning things, that's the only piece of the puzzle that's missing right now.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I can't believe that, that technology stuff, that's, that blew my mind. Even where Stuart was saying the future, and I was talking to you about this off air before, might be like those automatic vacuum cleaners in the house that go around and map where, you know, your chairs and everything are. This, these groomers are mapping like where everything is and will, just set off robots on their own. I mean, yeah, do you think that is something that will happen eventually?

Probably, but I don't think we're there yet. I think there's a few— I think more data is needed in terms of what it can do. And it's also really difficult that even with, um, the new type of winch that Fernie users, there is an automatic function where it will adjust the pressure based on when it's needed. And a lot of the times it's not that great because a cat doesn't— like, we struggle with like going for a very fast ride if we don't have enough pressure. It doesn't know when it's sliding. And making those fine-tune adjustments, I think that might be years away, but not impossible. They do have— they do actually have, um, that technology in use at mines for haul trucks and things like that. But, um, it would be really cool to see a remote control Snowcat in life size.

Yeah, now I can imagine, like, with the amount of time you spend in the Cat, you probably have this strange sense of just actually feeling like the blades the tiller. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, just like a race car, a Formula 1 driver can literally like feel through their body changes in tires and blow— like, you can feel all that stuff, right? Yeah, no, that just comes with experience.

It does. Um, it's been a bit of a learning curve in the last few years with the CATs changing a lot. And if you go back 15, 20 years or an older machine where it was mechanical steering, you had a lot of feeling based on what was happening underneath underneath you, and then it moves to more electrical components. But a lot of the time you have this, you have this like autonomous, autonomous muscle memory where you just know and can feel what the machine's doing. I listen to the tracks a lot of what the snow is doing, and you do get a little bit of feedback when the CAT's moving. You get a lot of feedback under the seat, the way that the tracks are moving through, or what the tiller's doing, and then it's just applying that with your vision and just scanning all the time. Like, my eyes are doing this all night. Yeah, like, I don't really ever look behind me because there's usually a big winch, but you're looking at your mirrors all the time, you're looking at what the tracks are doing all the time. And that's one thing that I don't like, being in the middle. I got— had the luxury of driving a BR350 for a long time where you're on the left and you could really see what that track was doing, so you were ready to commit. But the, uh, you just developed this sense. A lot of— when I started out, I had no idea what my tiller was doing. I walked around with this huge notebook every day, basically a diary of what I did to get nice grooming. And then after a while, you just walk on snow, you know exactly what you need to do and what you need to set the tiller at.

Amazing.

It becomes an extension of your body. But, um, the really cool thing about it, there's very few things in the world that challenge your brain to think that fast, unless if you're playing a video game or really intense piano. Your brain has to make so many decisions where it can get into this very zen-like state that it's just quiet.

Yeah. Do you drive with music or without music?

Sometimes I do a mixture of all. There's definitely times where I won't listen to any music, especially if I'm doing something that needs a lot of concentration. And there's times where I listen to podcasts and music, but there's oftentimes when you factor in fatigue and everything else, music can change your mood in a good or bad way sometimes. Yeah, yeah, about a snowcat being a glass case of emotions, especially if it's raining. If it's raining or wet snow, um, I've seen grown men cry, and myself, but it can get— music can change a lot. Music can change your mood really quickly. But listening to the machine is huge because you can hear if it's running well. Like, the amount of work that snowcats need, it's for every ship that spends outside, there's a team of mechanics working on them all day. Yeah, and they are really finicky and they need a lot of attention. So the longer they get left, or if an operator's got music that's blaring and they're not really listening to their engine or what's happening, or hearing a clack, something like a loose tire guide, so underneath the tracks, that sort of thing. Yeah, spotting it early can mean that that machine is down the mountain being able to get fixed, or a track— a bar is broken and now it's like pierced a fuel tank. Worst case scenario.

It's worth shouting out to all the mechanics, Snowcat mechanics at resorts, because they're amazing. Hidden asset, completely valuable. Nothing would really get done without them yet. People, they are just—

yeah, they are, they are. We— no one would be able to do a job without them. They make everything safe, they keep everything going, and the amount of knowledge that all of them have, it's pretty mind-blowing that they can diagnose something with a cat when somebody comes in on their midnight shift and like, oh, it was making this sound. And they're thinking, oh, okay, that narrows it down to 3 million possibilities. But without mechanics, a resort wouldn't run at all. They're really amazing.

Yeah. Now I was gonna say, so I'm gonna guess there's probably a few people out there that are probably, you know, a little bit inspired and also interested in, you know, possibly like, like going down this road of driving groomers. Do you want to give us the, the short list of like the positives and maybe the short list of the negatives?

Positives: you get to learn every single day you're outside. Um, being anonymous is, um, a really nice thing. So you get to go out skiing for— sorry, that's my dog going crazy. You get to go skiing for yourself. And check out your grooming, but you also get to just share, watch people have a good time and be part of that. And for an introvert, it's paradise because you don't have to be face to face, but you can just kind of take it all in. Um, you get to see amazing things. Just the, in the nights are so beautiful, some of them where if it's a full moon with stars It's spectacular when you get to see pink sunrise or a Thredbo sunrise. It's amazing. Uh, usually the team you work with is a huge plus. Then the drawbacks is challenging shift work. It's a huge sacrifice in your social life and it basically can take over your life when it comes to fatigue and time management. Mental health gets impaired because you are working different hours. Socializing can go out the window. There's usually something that will give. It's very difficult to get the balance right or to keep that balance going for an entire season. And, um, yeah, and the wage can be— well, is really challenging. Well, every ski industry job, living off certain wages can be really challenging. Mm-hmm.

You're, but you're, you're managing to make it work.

I do.

Um, the positives are outweighing the negatives at this point.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

For me, it's, I get to, I'm very fortunate where I work that I have the flexibility. So I coach ski racing as well, which it's not teaching, but it is in a lot of ways. And both of those roles go hand in hand really well. And not too many people love their second job. But, um, for me to be able to do—

I was gonna say, do you think your, your husband too, being in the industry and in the role— he's, he's an avalanche forecaster, was a ski patroller, and, and a groomer as well. Yeah, that, that probably helps because he understands where you're coming from. He's been in that role, he's in the industry as well. That's, that's probably a something worth mentioning.

It is like, we're really lucky that we've both been in it in different ways for a really long time, so we have great communication skills. It was kind of funny when I started out, he was actually starting to empathize with some of my challenges, more of like how horrible he used to be when he was crewing. And, um, we're just really good at cutting each other slack these days or just helping out. So in the summer, obviously I'll try to do more, but if I'm on midnight shifts, I can guarantee you I haven't been cooking, or I've been living off coffee and granola bars and things like that. Just strong communication, and we both really love what we do, and we both live to ski. And, um, it makes things easier when you've got a really good support network around you, and that extends out to the friends that are around you, the team that you work in. And when all of those things are strong, it's really easy to manage.

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, you're, you're really lucky you've got a good partner.

He's amazing. I couldn't live without him.

Yeah. I got one more question maybe before we wrap it up. How much fuel does a Snowcat use in a shift?

Anywhere between— in an 8-hour shift, anywhere between 120 liters to 250. On average, if I'm winching, it'd be— if I'm winching hard, maybe 200 to 210 liters a night. If I'm— if the snow is easy and the groom— the traction is good, it'll be around 180. Depends on the machine that you're in as well, but it costs a lot in diesel. So you think about a In Fernie there's a fleet of 5 cats, and every night there's a lot of diesel being burnt. And then you think about a resort, or let's think Parrish, for example, where they have a lot of machines. It's a ton of diesel.

Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot. That's a big fuel cost, isn't it? Yeah.

Wow. These days they have, um, these days The machines come with like a, a DEF filter, so it's basically another filter that had like just processes all the particulate matter, so it's a bit more environmentally friendly. And, um, they at the school have thought with those, it's one machine that doesn't have that regeneration filter could be one machine versus 10 that have a DEF filter. So basically adding like a type of fertilizer to it and it processes all the soot to make it a little bit more user-friendly, but then it makes the machine heavier.

Okay.

So yeah, but anyone, anyone that, anyone that's driven a diesel vehicle with the AdBlue, Snow Cats have those too. Okay.

I got no idea what that is, but I'll, the people that do. Alina, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and like experience insights into, into groomer driving. I mean, I've found, I found it fascinating. I could— yeah, and, and also I think it's important to reflect back. I love skiing, I love skiing groomers, and to appreciate what goes into preparing a slope, um, it's just— yeah, I hope everyone else out there gets that from, from this episode, and possibly we get a few more great groomer drivers inspired to, to take on this career.

Well, there's a bunch in Threppo actually that started off that way. Um, I do remember years ago when Matt Smith was complaining about one of the carpets. It was right when I started, and kept losing students into the side of the carpet on Friday Flat, and Next thing, Shane McLeod turns up and throws his head into teaching, and he's one of the most talented operators I've ever seen. He was an operator first, but I think just the experience of teaching, I think it added to his skill set.

But, um, I remember being done level 1, he was— yeah, yeah, I remember that season. Yeah, so having those, having Yeah, I think that's what is your greatest asset, and you even said it, is being— is having experience in the roles that are kind of on the mound during the day that have to deal with a product that then the groomers at night are creating, and having insight into both of those, that, that's what makes you the grooming master.

I got so much to learn.

Well, I think that's a great attitude. Thanks so much, Alina, for your time.

Thank you so much, Tom.

Fingers crossed for a really good Northern Hemisphere winter with lots of good snow.

If we're sliding on snow, it's a good day. It doesn't matter what the weather's doing.

That's it.

I hope you've enjoyed today's content. I personally love sharing my ideas and thoughts on skiing with like-minded people like yourselves. So if you'd like the chance to ski with me, I know invite you to go over to bigpictureskiing.com and become a member. Videos on hundreds of different topics, everything to do with skiing, I create personally to help people like yourselves improve. I reply to every single comment, and videos are tailored so it's like me skiing with you right now. Head on over to bigpictureskiing.com. I look forward to seeing you there soon. See ya!

This episode is sponsored by Carv, the digital ski coach, and one of the updates I've really enjoyed this season is the addition of separate SkiIQs for moguls and short turns. In the past, Carv scoring was mainly built around carving metrics, which meant everything was viewed through that lens, but Carv have gone deep on that research and completely separated what makes a great short turn or mogul turn different from a carved turn. To give you an idea of how accurate it's become, the person at the top of the Carv leaderboard right now isn't a carving specialist, it's Olympic mogul skier Matt Graham. So the best SkiIQ in the world at the moment is coming from someone who lives and breathes bumps, and to be honest, my own highest SkiIQ is also in the moguls, which makes sense because that's my favorite type of skiing. What's really exciting this year is the addition of turn tempo, so basically your turns per minute. it's such a simple external output that's incredibly fun to play with. So good skiing isn't just about edge similarity or parallel skis, it's about how you interact with the terrain and whether you can change your tempo on demand. So seeing numbers like my quickest tempo of 117 turns per minute in the bumps gives you something concrete to compare, refine, and work toward. I've been working with Carv since 2020, and every year I'm genuinely impressed with how much the product evolves. They keep expanding what you can measure, and they're covering more and more of the turn types that skiers actually use all over the mountain. So if you're interested in tracking not just your carving but every turn you make on the snow, check out Carv. And a big thanks to the team for supporting this episode.