Gord Brown - Ex Canadian Alpine Team Coach

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Big Picture Skiing podcast. On today's episode, you're going to hear from Gord Brown. Gord Brown is ex-Canadian national team coach of the Alpine team, and I've had the pleasure of being coached by Gord and working alongside him when I was in Canada several years ago. Now, something that struck me from the very first day was Gord's charisma and his ability to really read someone, read a whole group, and create an environment that just made everybody love skiing more and just ski better. And I think this is like a magical quality. If you can do this as an instructor or a coach, you'll have work for the rest of your life, you'll have a following for the rest of your life, and you'll just feel great about yourself because you are helping others enjoy one of the best sports in the world. So I wanted to get Gord Brown on because I hope some of his charisma and his experience and knowledge comes across and you glean some great insights, whether it's around psychology and what you're thinking about on the hill, the importance of keeping your ski gear really well tuned and how Gord really puts that at the top, the first thing that must be done. And just his thoughts on what good skiing is. So I'm going to leave, uh, the rest to the conversation with Gord and myself. I hope you enjoy it, and I'll see you at the end.

Okay, Gord Brown, it's great to catch up with you again. Now, I was lucky enough to ski with you when I was working with Heather, and so I had the privilege of working with someone that is at pretty much the highest point, I'd think, in terms of being a ski coach. And I will forever remember those 3 days we had, just, uh, for a number of reasons. One, I was truly inspired by what a world-class coach does within 3 days and how, how much positivity, but also just great direction was given to the group over those, those 3 days. I'll remember that, inspired by you as a coach. I felt my skiing got better, I felt everyone else's skiing got better, and I really liked the different focus that came from your racing background coaching as opposed to a lot of training I've had, which is a ski instructing training background focus. And so that was refreshing, and I took a lot away from that. Now, for those who don't know, would you say a little bit about who you are and a bit of your experience and history in the ski world?

Well, thanks, Tom, and thanks for having me on your podcast. And I think, um, you know, congratulations on what you're doing these days, because, uh, as we just came through that pandemic COVID for the last few years. You've actually done some excellent innovative training using video, and like, it's really good. And I'll remember those 3 days too because you're an excellent skier, Tom, and I really enjoyed meeting, skiing with you. But just a little bit of background on me. I was, uh, you know, I started at the age of 16 skiing, but I had you know, multi-sport involvement before that. So I just put a pair of skis on and I went skiing. It was the first time I ever went down. I went downhill, and I've been skiing ever since. So after the first year of skiing, you know, like, I went through my instructor levels, and, you know, by the age of 21, I had a Level 4 ski instructor from the Alliance The Canadian Ski Instructors Alliance. And, you know, I, I really, really enjoyed skiing, and, uh, I thought, well, the, the instructor side of things is a really good entry point. And, uh, I thought there was more that interested me in the coaching side of things because I, I saw some video on World Cup skier, and I said, well, that, that's that's what I want to do. I want to coach. I want to coach there. And, um, yeah, I worked myself all the way up and it, uh, it was kind of a nice career for me.

And so what year did you get your Level 4?

Well, what year? That was probably about 1973. I'm not sure if that's before your time or not, Tom.

It is. It's 10 years before I was born.

Okay, well, there you go.

And where did you get that? Where were you teaching?

Uh, I was teaching at, uh, in the Okanagan here at Big White, and, uh, I worked for a fellow named Brian James, and he was just one of my mentors, just a terrific guy. And he still— we still ski together. And Norm Crear, they're up at Silver Star, and that— they're terrific guys. They've been Canadian Ski Instructors Alliance for a long time, and they were demo team members, and they really led the way in ski teaching for a long time. And, uh, they were, they were excellent guys, excellent mentors.

Now, when you went into the— so you saw these World Cup races and you said, that's what I want to do— when did you first start dealing with athletes at that national level? When— how far into the, into the career, like, where were you then? Did you go to a different ski resort, uh, after '73? Like, when was that? When was this next step?

Well, a part of that, um, when I have a twin brother, Grant, and we were both taking our Level 4, um, certification at Sunshine Village And one of the ski team coaches was there and they were looking for a couple of support staff and assistants. And they said, hey, would you guys be interested in coming on? And we said, yeah, sure, that would be really good. So our first year in 1973 was on the Can-Am team, form, you know, like it moved into the NORAM circuit, but when we first started, it was called the Can-Am, and that was a Canada-America race series that, um, we had all our big guns there, but there were only 16. There was Steve Poporsky, Ken Reid, you know, Gord Acton, Rob Safrata. They were, they were terrific guys, and that's how I first started. And, and going through the our first season, I thought, well, I'm okay as a support guy, but I really don't know enough about the sport. And that's when I decided to go and work as a club coach, and then I worked as a division coach, and then provincial, and I worked myself all the way up. That took me about 4 or 5 years. And then A great friend of mine, John Ritchie, he was the head coach of the Canadian ski team, men's team, and he saw me at a Canadian championships with my team and he said, hey, would you be interested in working for us? And I went, I would.

And so you get to this point, what would you say, uh, maybe a couple of key lessons you've learned along the way as a coach that's, that's making you become successful or helping your athletes become successful as you transition to now getting to the really elite level?

Well, I, I think, um, at, at the— when I, I was inexperienced, I was just acting in a supporting role, and I had some really good mentors, especially John And another fellow I worked with, Jürgen Feller, he ran the tech team for, uh, the Canadian men's team. And, you know, like, it's just, uh, if you don't know what you're doing, you have to get educated or you have to get more experience because you certainly don't want to interfere with an athletic career.

Yes, I mean, did you, did you have any mistakes? Like that, or that you sort of— maybe harsh lessons where you saw the power, I guess, of what you as a coach can do and influence over an athlete?

Well, I, I didn't— we always treated the guys fairly, and we gave them a lot of, uh, values. And, and that's what I think I really brought to our team, Guy, even though that I was inexperienced coach and all the team guys really remember those valuable lessons. But, um, I didn't make mistakes by hurting an athlete or anything like that. But I'll tell you one experience that I learned my lesson on. And we were over at a Europa Cup, and I was setting a warm-up course for our guys, and we had this phenom who first started clearing with the breakaway gates. His name was Robert Zoller, and I had set a warm-up course, and I owed this Austrian coach one because he had let me train with him on this one race. And I said, okay, well, you guys can run our warm-up course. And this Robert Zoller guy came down and he shinned and boot-topped the whole slalom course, so there was no gates left. And like, I was going like, whoa, I've never seen anything like that. And then Ingemar's coach came over to me and he said, oh, welcome to World Cup. I still remember that lesson, right?

So that was— it's like, this is the next league. Yeah, people, people are taking a way more direct line.

Well, we We had a, uh, technology really changed a lot when we were with the ski team, and there was new innovations all the time. And, uh, but especially with the new gates, the hinge gates, they were trying different plastics and different hinges, and they had different bases. And, and that was just one of those prototype bundles of gates that we had that I sat, and this guy took them all out, like, like he cleaned the whole thing. And I'm going, well, I've never seen a guy run that line before, so That was, that was a real lesson for me.

Okay, okay. And then out of that, that team that you're sort of working with, so you're working with— I know of Podborski and Ken, Ken Reed, and his son is now racing, is that— isn't that correct?

Uh, Ken and Linda Reed have, uh, 3 sons. 2 are on the ski team. Eric, he's, uh, on our GS and Slalom team, and Jeff, he's on the Speed— he's with the Speed group. And they are terrific athletes, and they're terrific guys. But it's almost like if you want, um, if you want to make an athlete these days very successful, well, you got to select your parents for sure.

Yeah, okay. So what did you see? And you go ahead.

Yeah, and if you, um, if you have one of the parents that's talented, well, that works as well. But if you have two, you know, like Kenny Reed and Linda, they were both ski team athletes. And yeah, it's in the genes, you know. Yeah, if you want to have a successful athlete, you know, you want to make somebody like that, well It really helps if one of the, uh, one of the parents is pretty athletic or skilled, you know. That helps a lot. Sure. Yeah. And what did—

what do you remember about, uh, Podborski and Ken Reid back in the day when you, you know, you're now getting to stand right next to them on the course and see them up front? Because I mean, I think there's a big difference when you watch things on television and video compared to real life. And so what would you say, like, I mean, is it the speed? Is it the precision? What, what stood out to you?

Well, like, um, back then when we were trying to field a really competitive team, um, Scott Henderson, he took our skilled athletes, and at that time they were Breed and Podborski and Dave Murray and Irwin, but they were all our tech guys. They were They were really good in giant slalom. Kenny Reed was a good slalom skier, and Podborski was— he was a GS champion. I mean, he raced against the Mair twins, and he was very competitive with those guys, and they went on to have unbelievable careers on the tech side. But then our chiefs, they just said, we're gonna go, we're gonna run some downhill and make our downhill team the best we can. And It was a really good choice, but the technical background from these guys like Reid and Paul, that, uh, it proved to be very successful. It was a really successful ingredient.

Hmm. Now, uh, humor me for a second here. Pretend I was good enough to get on your, your national team. So I've worked my way up, I'm, I'm working my racing, and I have a shot at this sort of national team. What would I expect to happen in terms of maybe the physical training, uh, the kind of coaching I would get? What, like, is there much of a difference? What, what would you say I would expect if that happened?

Well, if somebody that's quite skilled like yourself coming on to the team, they would have gone through a progression all the way up, like Provincials, uh, NORAM, Europa Cup, all the way up. So it's not such a big shock to get onto that World Cup circuit because as soon as you go up there, you, you not only get your ass kicked, but like you get an eye opened because those athletes, they are really, really strong and they're really, really skilled. So the first thing that we do is We'd probably give you a strength and conditioning program just to make you more trainable so we could train you longer.

Okay.

And that's, that's probably the first thing that we do. Then you get a nutritionist, then a— you go for the whole ancillary capacities to make you a better athlete and more skilled and stronger and just more aware of what's going on.

I remember when you— I think you even said when you had the, the ladies team, the first thing you did was you dropped the center of mass. Well, do you want to explain, explain that?

Yeah, for— it's, it's different. It's different with the skiers now, but when we were working with the girls and the guys, our our dryland guys, our physical strength trainers, that they would want to drop the center of mass in both the men and the women just because of mass over time. If you're going to drop the center of mass, you're going to be, you know, like stronger, and plus you're going to develop more mass. So one of our guys, Istvan Bajá, he was a great guy, and he just said to the guys, like, when you're skiing if you're going up the lift, I want you eating all the time. So just keep eating. It was kind of a neat thing, you know, like guys just start putting on mass, you know. And, uh, then we, you know, like improve the strength. So they'd build, uh, build the whole strength program so they gain weight and they gain muscle.

Yeah, okay. And, and do you think so, sort of with body, sticking with the body. And I think there are obviously people that are born, like you said, genetically more likely to ski well. Do you think there are certain attributes building the perfect skier? Like, say, I don't know, the proportion of limbs, or even the, the shape of the foot, or anything like, like where bigger legs than upper body, bigger upper body than legs? Are there any things you kind of saw And of course there are outliers, but are any, any things in those parameters that you, you've seen with your experience?

Well, when currently technology is unbelievable, like the, the boots, the skis, the technology that just goes into that, I mean, it's just an unbelievable playing field for everybody. And with the, uh, injected snow, so it's a little bit it's, it's more, uh, fair for everybody. But when we were doing it, when— what we learned is, uh, we thought we'd, um, you know, all of a sudden have this stereotype athlete that's either going to be a GS, a slalom person, or a speed person. And nowadays that's not the fact anymore because you're going to get slalom Swiss skiers that are 6'7".

Yeah.

And they're winners. And then you get a guy like Herscher who used to win everything, but he was a smaller guy, like 5'8", 5'9", and he was a little bit, you know, smaller in that reason. But he didn't really run speed events, he just ran the GS and slalom stuff because he was a slight guy. But wow, pound for pound, he was probably one of the strongest guys in the circuit. And, and same with the gals, you know, like, uh, when we were— when our team was competing back then, the bigger girls would win more than the slighter girls in speed, you know, downhill, super-G. And then the slighter girls, they'd be better in tech, you know, like slalom and giant. But now it, it doesn't matter. You can, you can win 4 events You can train for events and you can be like this.

Doesn't matter your shape.

It doesn't matter the shape.

Yeah, I think you— I think that must be it, isn't it? Like technology and the ability to customize and fine-tune things to make it work for your type has just leveled the playing field a bit, hasn't it?

Yeah, yeah, it really has. But our guys, um, you know, like when they were racing against, um the European guys back, you know, in the, in the late '70s, early '80s. You know, like our team, like our downhill team, they won, you know, we won Kitzbühel 4 years in a row, which is just unbelievable. That was, uh, Kenny Reed who started that, and then Paul Borski went back to back, and then Brucker won. And like, that was just fantastic. To beat the Europeans in their own backyard. And they were going, who in the heck are these crazy Kanak guys? I mean, like, that was fantastic.

Do you— can you get— like, is there anything you remember from the type of training, or, you know, what— is there anything you can say about that? What was part of that success?

Well, you know, like, um, John Ritchie, our head coach, he just, you know, like He said, look, when we're training, when you get these training run guys, you know, like, you know, we want to go down there and be really competitive and try not to, you know, like just go through a section and say, you know, like, like I wasn't very good there. You know, like try and do a really good job the whole way down and run your line, you know, so it gives you a really good idea of how that course is going to run. And some of our guys like they went full blast. And I think Serge Lang, he coined the phrase, wow, these Canadian guys, they're crazy, you know, the Crazy Canucks. And that was where that phrase was going, you know, like, because our guys, that they trained the way they raced, and that was, that was pretty good.

Yeah. Okay, okay, nice. So just sort of putting a little bit on the line, really, which is where that name came from.

Well, and then you can look back at it, and you look back and you do some research, you know, like Perfect practice, okay, makes perfect. And, and that's where our guys, they did a really good job because they, they practiced the way they, they raced. And yeah, they set the bar.

Hey, how is your, how is your own personal skiing going this, this season? I think you'd, you've, you've, you're trying out some different skis, is that right?

Like, I, I ski, um I've almost skied, um, 69, 70 days now, and I think, um, you know, this season we haven't had the snow volume that we usually get at Silver Star. It's been really hard deck skiing, you know, like you have to do— tune the skis every night, and I, I feel really good about skiing. But we've gone from, uh, you know, a very narrow underfoot ski that's a carver, you know, to like an all-mountain ski that's like about 85, 86 underfoot, and then you you go to like, uh, you know, the 90 centimeters or millimeters, and you go, um, you know, like up to 100, and you almost kind of ski it the same way, but you're just not getting the same activation out of the ski. And, uh, I think some of the people that are out there skiing on the really wide skis, it's— the knee has to work so much more than the narrower skis. But then when you get a, you know, like the nice fresh snow, it's, uh, it's a little bit more to, uh, it's conducive to better skiing if you're on a wider, wider ski underfoot. But the mechanics are very similar.

What, what ski you— what ski have you enjoyed, uh, this season? Well, for those harder days, yeah, those harder days, that, uh, Dynastar Master Slalom.

It's about a 173 you know, 72, uh, 68 underfoot. Just a really terrific ski. And then the Fischer Curve is a great ski for that. I ski on that as well. But, um, when it's really hard, uh, the Fischer seems to hold on and grip a little bit better. But it's extremely active and it wears you out after a couple hours.

But, uh, yeah, I just— I, I I had a pair of the, the Fischer CT 175s. I just got those recently. Holy cow, I was, I was a lot more tired from those skis after the first day. I mean, I had just gotten on off an airplane, but I could, I could feel the difference. But on the positive, I didn't feel like I ever was even really close to pushing the limit on those things. Um, if, if anything, it was just the very narrow 66 underfoot, and I don't have plates on my boots. And so I just, I had to be really careful about the level of incline, the edge angle, because, um, especially when in Utah, the snow is a little bit softer. So, but yeah, man, those things were— I mean, yeah, I was, I was working, but I really, really enjoyed it. And I must say, it was the first time I'd been on a non-tip-rockered sort of medium radius ski in a while, and I liked, I liked the camber. I like the feeling of the whole just further up on, on the tip, um, just giving me feedback.

Well, you know, like the skis that, uh, you and I are skiing on nowadays If our giant slalom and slalom guys back in the '80s had a pair of those, well, we would have won everything. And, and that, um, that brings me to a memory that we were up against a guy named Ingemar Stenmark. And what stood out to me the most is you could hear the difference on the hill when he came down. Like all the other guys, you know, like Wenzel and the big guys, you know, they all came down and there would be a little bit of a chatter going on. And, uh, Engabar would come down and you couldn't hear the skis work, he was so clean. And we were going, what the heck is that guy on? Like, he's unbelievable. And he would win sometimes by 3 seconds. Wow.

Yeah. And was he on the same equipment?

Uh, I, I'm not sure. I used to go into the wax room with him and his tech was quite secretive. Uh, he skied on Elan and, uh, Elan had the first patent on sidecut. So I am sure that his skis had some sort of a sidecut differential than anybody else because You know, like sometimes on that World Cup snow, you could, you could hear and see the chatter, you know. And when he came down, you couldn't hear anything, and it was pure carve, and he was on the straights. And like, we—

like, because I've heard that too.

I've heard that we couldn't believe it.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know, it's not, not proof or anything, but I heard that he was probably on some kind of slightly shaped ski, or people were—

yeah, but yeah, it wasn't a shape ski, but it had, I would say, just the first, the, the first start of a little bit of sidecut on the skis, you know. But, but those skis that our guys were on, you know, like that, they, they, they don't even— they didn't have a chance.

Yeah.

And then same with our downhill guys, that the Austrians would get the first picking the skis out of the factory until our guys, you know, got at least a chance to get a little bit better ski. And then we started winning, and then that changed the whole paradigm.

Yeah, I was speaking with Eric Schloepi about his career and playing with equipment the other week, and, and just how fine-tuned these people get with like millimeters forward or back in the binding. Different plates and different bindings made of different materials, and just changing the binding— not placement, but even just the type or brand of binding— was faster by like half a second. Like, that, that's crazy. Were you guys doing that sort of level of tinkering?

Oh yeah, like, um, we would, we would be in the wax room quite a bit. The tech guys, they were just amazing. That if you're looking for hundreds of a second, I mean, you go to those guys to to see where they can find it, and they usually did. But, um, I, you know, for the female athletes, we would kind of move them a little bit ahead of center, you know, like half centimeter or sometimes a centimeter ahead, and then put a little bit of a ramp angle on, on, uh, in their boots, just because of the different morphology with the female athlete. Some needed a little bit of lift and some didn't. The guys with their equipment, they're very particular. But, uh, boy, when you're competing with those guys that run GS Assault, they are so strong, it's unbelievable. So they've got, they've got different flexes in their boots, and they've got different plates on their skis so they can just handle the loading that comes into those turns because Wow, it is— the injected snow is just— it is so demanding. Like, you're like, if we— well, we would ski down, we wouldn't, we wouldn't look very good though.

Yeah, I don't— yeah. Do you remember the first time you skied on a proper injected course?

Yeah, and yeah, I was high slipping down and I couldn't stop. Like, and we were going, what the heck is this? Oh my gosh, and this is like an ice rink and they just tipped it up. You know, to about maybe a 15 to 30 degree angle. And we're going, I don't know. And, and then, but, but I mean, but that's the way that, that's the way that we really discovered, you know, how the ski works on the snow. If that ski goes sideways, you don't have a chance. Uh, but if it's carving, if it's working down the hill, you know, with gravity on the fall line, then it'll work and it'll hold. And that's why the ski is designed. But if it's going across the hill, it, uh, it'll backfire, it'll bounce, it'll kind of chatter a little bit. But I mean, any ski is going to do that. But if it's going down the hill, yeah, you can mostly carve on anything that they, they make.

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And, and I mean, I think some people perhaps don't realize, you know, you might even buy from the store like the the, the regular Race Tiger or like the, the Rossignol, uh, Race ski or something, that ski won't— doesn't even matter if it's sharp, that won't hold on an injected slope, will it? There's, there's like more material, there's plates. It's the boot, the stiffness, and the strength of— like, there's a lot of elements on there that, that will allow you, for a start, to actually just hold on. On injected snow. Is that right?

Yeah, those, those skis that they're making for the, the better athletes, like the females and the males, like, like, they'd, they'd give you a workout because they'd, they'd be stiffer. There's a little more rebound, and they'll hold on that stuff. I'm not sure, I'm not sure if the guys go more than 4 degrees on that, uh, on the sharpness of the angle, but, uh, certainly 3 for sure. And then, um, on the speed side of things, you know, they're probably going 2 and 3s, you know, to hold on.

You know, I mean, you must get that when people say like, how do you ski on ice?

Yeah.

Oh yeah, the first thing is, is equipment, isn't it? Like, really, like, you got no chance if you don't. I, I remember the first time I tried a proper work— like, I don't know, not, not World Cup ski, but more of a, a FIS-type slalom compared to my recreational one in Solden. And suddenly I wasn't like gritting my teeth and my toes clawing because the thing just bit. And part of it was the construction and part of it was, that was the plate.

Yeah, and that's, um, that's one of the things where you get at that extremely high level, the sophistication of the equipment. Like, if you trust that ski like you can ski pretty good. Yeah, but if you don't trust it, oh, the thing's going sideways on you, and then it's not— it'll— it does— it doesn't work. And you can see an athlete coming down running number 30 or 40 or whatever if their equipment's proper for them. Because if they're— the way that they race now, you know, like everybody's got a chance, and if the equipment's matched up with the skill level of the athlete, well then, you know, like some of these guys are coming down You know, number 39 and 42, our guys, they won at Kittvill, Norway like a couple of weeks ago, running at the back of the pack there. I mean, that's just, that's terrific skiing, you know. And yeah, it's, it's great to see.

Yeah, no, it is. Hey Gord, if you're— because you have a lot of experience coaching not only you know, high-end athletes, but just, just people, you know, in the public as well. Are there, are there 1, 2, maybe even 3 things that you keep sort of having to repeat, or you keep seeing as a, as a problem with these people, whether it be technical equipment or psychological?

Well, like, there's a lot of, um, traits that we take into our clients' free skiing and skill development now that we've had, you know, in the racing circuit, that the first thing that I do is just make sure that equipment is functioning properly and the skis are really tuned nicely. You know, like they're waxed so they glide well and they're sharp so it runs on the snow well. And if the boots are flexible, they're comfortable, they're warm, and make sure that the person has a really good experience with equipment, because there's so many people that are skiing nowadays that have maybe waxed their skis once a year.

Yeah.

And like, if you look at the equipment now, if everybody has a chance to ski on good equipment, they will have a much better experience. Then the next thing that we do is we put them on the right terrain so that it's a really positive learning and experience and an environment rather than skiing a really difficult terrain with poor equipment. You can make anybody look terrible. So, you know, we, we kind of set them up for success. And the mechanics are one thing, but, you know, the tactics, the turn shape, and the line are another thing. And you can get somebody going north-south on a slope, you know, down the hill versus east-west better. Okay, and then you'd make a better progression out of it. If you want somebody to go across the hill, well, it's like standing on a World Cup hill trying to make the ski work when it's going sideways. It won't work. But if you lengthen the arc and if you ski with gravity, I think everybody's a little bit more successful.

Uh, do you know, I think that's from my trip to Canada. That was one of my biggest takeaways, or maybe biggest feelings that I finally felt, was, was every turn I was just thinking like, let gravity have me and go, go down, like down towards the snow and down toward, like down the hill. And that would help my skis track, and that would let them do what they're designed to do. And And it's a different thought process because I think a lot of people get there and they go, wow, like, I'm facing down the hill, this is not going to go well. But if you trust that moment, things do come across the hill on their own. It's when you try and get across the hill and like first instead of as a result. Is that kind of what— that's what you're getting at there?

Well, and that's exactly, exactly right because Everybody wants to go across the hill to slow down, but if you have the right terrain, they can, they can feel comfortable going down the hill, and then you're way more successful. And you've seen that little grandson of ours, you know, he's 3, and like, he's carving already, you know. And I haven't really told him what to do yet except what color gummy bear he wants on the lift, but I get him to go down the hill and turn versus going across, and He's pretty good.

Yeah, he's very good. He's very good. I, I've not seen someone that young with— I don't know how to describe it. He's, he is, uh, I think now you say that, I think the terrain— you must have just always put him in terrain where he is just loving the down the hill feeling.

Yeah.

And that feeling of that ski turning, turning, but going down the hill. Because he, he's really working it. Like, he's, he's moving up and down and side to side and really like pumping up.

Ski— and what we have a thing, you know, you go, you go as, as fast as you can with the kids in a slow zone because, you know, then they want the speed.

So that's—

yeah, that's where we've been skiing that gap.

Yeah, that's amazing. That's it.

And then they— and, you know, with the environment, with the kids, you know, like Every time we go out skiing, we want to make it as fun and enjoyable as we can for them. Otherwise, you know, they, you know, that it's all— it's always the, you know, the extrinsic motivation. You got to go skiing. But, uh, nowadays it's that they want to go, so that's— we're on the right track.

Yeah, I, I mean, I think that— I mean, that's lucky Sometimes that's not easy, is it? Because if you're far from a ski hill, it's a— usually you need to go up there for the whole day. But with the youngsters, like, like, I feel fortunate when we were in Canada because we could go out with Archie for half an hour.

Yeah.

And that was it. It was done. Whether it was the morning, afternoon, done. And then as we got to the end of our 23 days, he was pretty much lasting almost the whole day, but we, we just gradually were able to build, build up to that. But I can imagine that's pretty hard for, for other people. But, you know, I guess if you've got to think long term, haven't you? Is it just today you're trying to get through, or do you want them to love it all their life?

But it's, it's, uh, it's very similar to what you're doing with your, um, big picture. You Skiing, you know, like you're providing a service with your experience for people, and you're, you're getting the skill development done in a much shorter time frame than skiing for years and years doing the same old thing. So it's the same sort of thing. Boy, if you're with the right person and you know what to do, then you can get a tremendous training effect in like 3 or 4 days or a couple hours or whatever. But Being with the right person, I think, is key.

Now, what are you—

thanks for that—

what are you working on? You know, you never would not be thinking about your skiing. Is— I mean, I'm sure a good day you're just loving it, but if you're out there, what have you been thinking about? Uh, is it just the going to— going with gravity, going down the hill? Are there other things you've been working on, God?

Oh well, that's it. That's an interesting question. And I want to ski for as long as I can. And, uh, you know, I'm in my early 70s now, and I ski quite a lot. I've never been injured ever skiing. And when I'm skiing, I ski with my beautiful wife, and we just have a ball. And every time I go out with her, I make sure that she's well looked after, so her equipment is really, really good and she's got the best looking outfit on the hill. And then I try and keep up to her. But what I'm working on is using gravity more and like activating the ski at the right time. And if I'm coming into the arc or down the hill with gravity, it's a lot easier to work the ski. I'm coming into the arc really well balanced and aligned, so all the joints and the bones are well on top of each other, almost like a mini Super G turn, Tom. And then activating the ski and then letting the ski go across the hill in a gliding rebound phase versus working it. So I'm just trying to make the the arc on the right spot, get a little bit of deflection at the end of the arc so I go across the hill, and then way more gliding with the, uh, with the skiing now versus working. Hmm.

And I mean, that's pretty awesome. You're still refining and thinking about that as your one thing now, and you know, it'll probably be the same As long as you keep, keep skiing, I'd imagine, because you've got to keep looking for it. What it makes me think of is, uh, my co-coach Sam Robertson. He, he raced World Championship Super-G for Australia, and he, he's retired, um, 5 years ago or so, but he's going back and he's doing some training with some— one of the Australian athletes and a couple of other guys who are racing World Cup. And he sent me some video and we were— he was like, you know what, some things are good, I feel like I'm aligning myself better, but I don't feel like I'm reading the terrain as well. And when he showed the, the comparison of him and another guy, Martin, who's, uh, he's actually placed in top 30 a few times this last season, he, he just looked like when the terrain dropped, that this current Martin was was dropping with it. He was ready to drop with it. And Sam, it took him off guard. And so you could see postural changes because he basically just didn't have— gravity wasn't taking him down on the snow and, and move him. So I mean, I think that's— I think that's like— I see that a lot. I don't think people really look at terrain. They're not reading terrain. What do you— do you have any comments around that? And coaching that?

Well, like, the terrain is, um, you know, where we ski, we've got, uh, single black diamonds and double blacks. Sometimes the single blacks are groomed to perfection, and you really have to watch where you're carving the ski versus gliding it or manipulating so it's a little bit of a redirect or sliding in the top part of the turn. Excuse me, but what you'll find is on those very steep hills, if you start carving right away, well, you're going way too fast and you're putting way too much loading on all your joints. So it's going to be too much. It's like you're just waiting for something to happen. So what we do is, you know, just redirect the top part of the arc. It's almost like what the girls and the guys are doing in Giant Slalom now. And like, if there's not enough room to carve those longer GS skis, you have to redirect it. So you kind of schmear it or steer it or pivot it or, or just break the arc, and you get the skis lined up for the fall line, and then, then you can work it. But, um, some of these black diamond hills, holy wow, they're just, uh, I mean, you've skied at Silver Star, you know, you can get going after the first 2 or 3 turns if you're arcing. Oh yeah, you gotta, you know, gotta control the speed and kind of slow it down a little bit. So we kind of break the arc at the top but then carve the bottom and keep doing that. And it's, uh, and it works pretty good. Otherwise you get going too fast.

Yeah, but even within those, those like black runs, like say Holy Smokes, there are a whole lot of different pitch changes there that I think is actually if you put your awareness on those changes, so then when there is a change, you're ready for it. You maybe brush a little more, uh, you, you really let yourself after that move down with the, the steeper sort of fall line part of it. Like, I guess that's what I'm, I'm commenting on. I think some people don't put their focus on— and this, I mean, I'd imagine that's the key to, to downhill. There's all these little changes that if you can read and you can move with, you're going to be continually keeping your speed up and staying on the snow.

I think these days, Tom, just for safer skiing, what we have to do is teach our clients and people when to break the arc and slow the ski down, and then when to speed it up. And if you're on some of these groomed blue and green runs. I mean, you can speed up that, uh, turn and the arc all the way down and stay ahead of everybody. It's almost safer skiing because nobody's going to hit you from behind or from the side. On some of the steeper pitches or breakovers, you want to make sure that ski's coming in, and sometimes you got to break the arc and slow it down and then speed it up after you get over. But what we try and do is I try and teach our kids to be really aware when you're skiing. So you're not thinking about technique or mechanics, you're thinking about the environment, and you're in a really broad external state. So you're skiing safe and you can kind of read the play all the time. Sometimes I think we get so drawn up and so narrow-focused when we ski, we're always thinking about our ski, and then we could forget to see the forest through the trees. So I think when we're skiing, our people can ski better when they're very broad external, so they're, they're using their peripheral vision, skiing the proper way, not going across the hill, going down skiing, and it's probably safer.

I do, I do recall that being a real focus when we finished the— those 3 days of training, just making sure we all— because we're all there thinking about, you know, old turn, new arc, I'll turn new edges and all that sort of stuff. But then, um, but yeah, you've really— I think it's important, like you said, to, to make sure you really notice your environment, be in your environment, because it is— I know that was my only focus when I was with Archie because I do not want him to be hit or, you know, go in the wrong direction. So I'm— yeah, it's a very different state of mind.

Well, when we're skiing, when you're skiing with your son, or if I'm skiing with our grandsons or granddaughters, like, I'm, I'm playing sweeper most of the time. I don't want anybody running into those guys. But, uh, I think the way Felix and Rowan are skiing now, I'd be hard to catch them, but at least they know what to do. They ski down, not across. Yeah.

Can you think of a story or an example from the, the racing, uh, coaching days where like a race was, was won or, or something was done really well because of an example where an athlete maybe was a tiny bit slower on the steep, but that set them up to, to come out with a win because the other people were, you know, too early trying to pressure it high and carve the whole thing.

And yeah, well, uh, when I was with the team, uh, I was there for a while and then I went, um, and I ran the Canadian Ski Coaches Federation for a long time. And part of my job was to, uh, you know, like almost showcase the best skiers in the world at certain levels, you know, so everybody could see what was out there. And, and now you, you can do that by Zoom or teleconferencing or like videos. Like the equipment is so advanced now, it's just unbelievable. But back in the early '90s, what I did with, uh with, uh, Thomas Grandy. He was our best GS skier then, and he got an opportunity to train with the Swiss star, Michael von Gruningen. And what I did, they were skiing on the glacier, and I videoed both of them, and then I overlaid it. And I was one of the first guys to ever do that. So you can really see where the guy accelerated the arc and where he decelerated the arc. And Bårn Grunegren, every time he came into a GS, he would be ahead of Thomas, but then at the gate and underneath, Thomas would pass him. So they were back and forth on where to hit the ski and where to, you know, where to, uh, activate it and where to manipulate it or slide it or steer it. And it was just a— it was an amazing piece of footage that we saw where Thomas would come in and we looked at it and he gained time and then he went back-to-back World Cup wins. I mean, Jesus, like, it was fantastic. He won in Alta Badia in 2004 and then the next week at Flakau he won, like, back-to-back World Cups. Okay, in Canada we call that a streak.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, but it was unreal.

But so yeah, like, would you describe— so would you describe then his skiing there?

Would—

if you— yeah, in terms of like the, the top of the turn and end of the turn, do you think he had a very fast end of the turn? Do you think he was very good at like— yeah, how would you describe it?

He was— but what he was doing, he was, um, he was kind of developing the new line of Giant Soul and he would invest in the line at the top of the arc a little bit more than the other guys. The other guys might have gone a little bit more direct, but he, he was a little bit rounder up there. And then when he came down the fall line, he would generate a little bit more speed. So we kind of use that these days, you know, when we're freeskiing, you know, you invest in the line, you might go in into the turn a little bit slower, but you're going to come out faster. Versus the other way around. You might go in faster, but you don't want to come out slower because everybody on the mountain will catch you versus going the other way around. Yes, but he— I remember the French guys standing beside us when they were watching their athletes train, and they just went, ah, that, that, that's the line, you know.

I still remember that, them commenting like that, that Grundy had had the line. That's it, that was the line. Yeah, I must admit, you know, not, not having a whole lot of race coaching experience, talking about the line and the terminology used at times, uh, like, you know, you saying you've got to invest in the line, and there are certain phrases and things that like definitely go over the top of my head, and like it must just take time to develop with with your athlete what you're trying to— because it's difficult, isn't it, to express these things in words often, isn't it?

Well, yeah, and you really have to know your athletes because, um, you know, some of the, some of the guys and some of the girls, they could run a little bit more of a direct line sometimes, and where the others can't, and they have to work from the side a little bit more. You know, just to generate that speed. So if you're cheating the line, going too straight, well, then you're going to pay the price if you, if you haven't got that strength. But if you're coming in and investing in the line so it's a little bit rounder up top but the ski's working, then you kind of be more consistent all the way down. And I think these days, especially for men's slalom, I mean, if you just break one turn while you're, you're 10th, you know. But if you clean the whole thing, well, then that usually means a victory. So you really have to work in relation to the gate with what you got. So some guys can run the whole thing, you know, like pretty direct, where other guys got to take a little bit more line beside the gate and a little bit more up top. And yeah, it, it takes a while to know your guy, you know.

Yeah, yes. So if we sort of come to the close of this podcast, I'm interested in, uh, are there some guys or girls this season you've enjoyed watching on the World Cup and why? Maybe it's, maybe it's consistency, or maybe it's excitement that they're maybe trying something different. Yeah, is there anything you've—

well, like, um It is, it's interesting with our girls tech team. There's 4 girls there now that are, they're ranked in the top 30, and they're all within second, a second and a half. They're close to winning, but there's 4 of them, so that's a really nice team. And they're doing a really good job with them. And, and they're, they're from the East, those girls, and they're doing a really good job. It's nice to have a team. Uh, some of the athletes, you know, on the speed side of things, like Mary-Michelle Gagne, she's just by herself. And sometimes when you're training by yourself, it's a little bit harder. That was the same thing with Thomas Grandy. He was by himself all the time. And we had to integrate them with, uh, you know, other teams. But then the guys on the guys, um, they've got a pretty good team. Uh, the speed guys are a little bit more from the west, you know, for the last few years. They're from Whistler, North Van, and John Kuchera has done a really good job of those guys there. I mean, you know, like Cam Alexander, he started 39th or something like that, or, you know, like at Kidfield and won. And then, you know, like, uh, there's some guys that are getting silvers, then we got a bronze in the combined, you know, like, uh, Crawford there, Jack Crawford, is just fantastic, you know, like we got a team again, you know. And I think that's, uh, that, that's really going to lead to more success for for our guys. And then our para, you know, Paralympic team, they just came back with a whole bunch of medals.

You, you know, you're skiing for, for a long time. So I think just that, if you can cultivate, you know, that kind of thing with your skiing communities, friends or whatever, I think that's, that's huge. And then the other one I think I would say my takeaway again from this is Uh, well, equipment. I know that was a huge sort of turning point for me in just being more— taking more pride in my own equipment, the tuning, waxing, uh, just what I'm using and how huge an effect that has on my season and my day. And so I hope people also, you know, take that away. I don't know if there's anything you wanted to emphasize or say to wrap this up.

Yeah, I think— well, if I had anybody, I would do their equipment. I'd tune their skis first before I go. And if you want the skis to come underneath you, go across the hill, I tune them 3 degrees. And if you want them to go down the hill, I tune them 2 degrees on the side. And for sure, one on the side, you know, so it's easy to manipulate.

One on the base.

Yeah, one on the— one on the base. And, uh, Yeah, and make sure they're waxed and brushed all the time so they really glide well. And, uh, and that's really important stuff.

Like, like, people shouldn't— sorry to jump in—

people should—

I think people sometimes are afraid that that's going to make them fast, but really it gives them the ability to steer without grabbing and, and deal with changing temperatures and, and not be thrown off balance, right?

Yeah, and it also lets the ski release at the end of the arc, and you don't— you want that ski gliding, otherwise you're you're pulling it and you wear out faster than the skis really gliding well.

Yeah, I, I actually, that just reminds me, uh, so these Fischer skis that I had, they arrived in, in Park City. I put them on, skied them, and something wasn't quite right. And I couldn't, couldn't tell at first what it was, but I know I'd felt it before. When I looked at them, the structure to me, and this is what had happened in a pair of old skis, was too coarse and deep. And so when I— if, if all I wanted to do was fully arc it, fine, the ski tracked like very well. But if I tried to make a short turn, it was like chattering, and I was crossing tips at times. And I mean, like, I don't think I've talked about that on any podcast with anyone, but Maybe before you go, can you speak to, to structure? And have you sort of experienced that? And I think some people might not realize that could be actually making their skiing really difficult.

Well, the structure in the ski, sometimes it's too aggressive for the snow conditions you're skiing, so it just doesn't ski right. And what you have to do is you've got to use some Fibertech or whatever to take that structure out of there. And like, you can do it on a machine, but You know, just the Fibertec pad would, would take a lot of that off and just make it smoother and make that ski glide better. But, uh, you know, like that, um, the Chris Hillier and Pierre Rouel, they have that Sidecut.com, and they have just unbelievable, uh, tuning and waxing tutorials that are free. And boy, if anybody wants to just have a look at that stuff and get a little bit of an idea, those guys do an amazing job. And Darren Ralves is on there too. But like, yeah, every time I go skiing, Tom, I— my skis are— they're perfect. Yeah. Anybody else is skiing with me, that their skis are done before I take them out, and it makes such a difference.

And it does.

Even the texture on the base could make a difference. So You know, you got to just pay attention to the detail, and the equipment is so good these days. Wow. You know, like, you take every opportunity to, to have a successful ski, you know, versus a negative training effect. And the more success, the more positive, then people really, really enjoy it. And especially what you're doing with all your podcasts and your tutorials and stuff like that. I mean, it's just terrific stuff.

Oh, thanks. Yeah, I would, I would second that. Sidecuttuning.com, that— I mean, the brilliantly made videos, all free, and their, their equipment is probably second to none really in terms of if you want to get your own stuff. And, and I think if you're into skiing, you should really learn to, to do that because you will, you will keep your skis in good shape and you won't go, oh well, I don't have time to drop it at the the tuning shop. You can just do it at your, at your own leisure. So I would second that. That's a really good resource. Good. Thank you so much for your time. It's great to catch up. I'll hopefully see you in Canada next winter, and, and I hope you enjoy these, uh, last few weeks of your ski season.

Yeah, well, thanks. Thanks for having me on, Tom. And, uh, you know, you're, you, you got a great program that you're running. Way to go. And You are one terrific skier.

Well, thank you, thank you. Well, you've been a great influence on me in both, both skiing and coaching side, so that's why I wanted you on here for others to hear your, uh, hear your magic. Okay, thanks.

Thanks, Gord Brown, for your time. And there closes out another Big Picture Skiing podcast episode. And if you're skiing in the Northern Hemisphere, you're about to be finishing up your winter. So I hope you're enjoying some spring skiing and making the most of the last bit of the season. I'm prepping for the Australian and New Zealand season right now and editing some more videos for the Big Picture Skiing site. So on that note, if you haven't been to check out bigpictureskiing.com, I invite you to go over there. I put everything from strength, mobility, equipment modifications lessons on bumps, carving, everything. Things that pop into my mind that I think are going to help you, that have helped me in my career, I put on there. So you're getting it straight from the source. Thanks very much, have a great day, and I hope to see you out on the ski hill someday.

This episode is sponsored by Carv, the digital ski coach, and one of the updates I've really enjoyed this season is the addition of separate SkiIQs for moguls and short turns. In the past, Carv scoring was mainly built around carving metrics, which meant everything was viewed through that lens, but Carv have gone deep on that research and completely separated what makes a great short turn or mogul turn different from a carved turn. To give you an idea of how accurate it's become, the person at the top of the Carv leaderboard right now isn't a carving specialist, it's Olympic mogul gear Matt Graham. So the best SkiIQ in the world at the moment is coming from someone who lives and breathes bumps, and to be honest, my own highest SkiIQ is also in the moguls, which makes sense because that's my favorite type of skiing. What's really exciting this year is the addition of turn tempo, so basically your turns per minute. It's such a simple external output that's incredibly fun to play with. So good skiing isn't just about edge similarity or parallel skis, it's about how you interact with the terrain and whether you can change your tempo on demand. So seeing numbers like my quickest tempo of 117 turns per minute in the bumps gives you something concrete to compare, refine, and work toward. I've been working with Carv since 2020, and every year I'm genuinely impressed with how much the product evolves. They keep expanding what you can measure, and they're covering more and more of the turn types that skiers actually use all over the mountain. So if you're interested in tracking not just your carving but every turn you make on the snow, check out Carv. And a big thanks to the team for supporting this episode.