Jack Adams - Ski racing and the importance of timing

Welcome to the Big Picture Skiing Podcast with today's guest, ski racer Jack Adams. Now I've known Jack for a long time from Threadbo, I saw him skiing around a lot, he's got incredibly good technique, he is a very humble, very nice young man, and he's got a great story to tell. So I hope in this episode you gain some insights into what someone who's, you know, really pursuing the, the highest level of ski racing is thinking about in terms of their technique, and also what they're thinking about in terms of line. And this is interesting because Sam and I, speaking with a lot of top-level coaches and athletes around the world, it's the same thing they all often are working on and find is the biggest mistake, that top part of the turn, getting that right. So it's just interesting hearing how Jack words it and how he's thinking about it. Also some insights if he was back coaching his old ski racing club what he would introduce at an earlier age and get people, young ski racers, to do. So without further ado, let's jump into the interview with Jack Adams.

Hey mate, let's get straight into this. How, how did you get into skiing? Why are you, uh, ski racing still to this day? Where did it all begin?

Uh, Mum, Dad. All comes from Mum and Dad. They're just frothing skiers. We used to go down to the snow every weekend in winter. We'd do school holidays. We'd spend a lot of time down there when I was young, and we even— Mum and I lived down there for a whole season during my first— what, I think I was 2. We lived down there for the whole season, which was epic. And then as I got into school, we'd do the weekends and the school holidays, and I actually started doing like the term 3 of the school school calendar. I'd live down there for winter and do homeschooling. So yeah, so just spent a lot of time down there. And Mom and Dad would just, when I was young, they just dragged me along and put me in daycare, go skiing all day. And then it got to a point where I could follow them around the mountain. And, uh, I guess one thing led to another, got into ski racing and still doing it.

When, when, when was the start of ski racing?

Uh, I first started doing just some school, super kind of casual, low-level events, um, just some school races when I was— oh, I would have been like 9 or 8 or 9, um, and then started getting into what was called in Australia the, uh, Australian, like, children's races, which were kind of a more serious kind of circuit. I got into those and joined Strohboski Racing Club at about 12 or 11, uh, and then kind of got into the overseas training when I was about 13 or so. And then it's kind of just got more and more intense from there. Uh, now I spend about 8, 8 to 9 months a year on snow. So yeah, It's got more and more from there.

Like, where, where have you just come from this last Northern Hemisphere winter?

So I was based in Northern Italy, uh, in a small town called Monguelfo, which is, uh, near Cortina for reference, with a team called Kronplatz Race Center, which is an international team. Um, we had, uh, we had between 10 and 15 guys through the season, guys and girls through the season, from a whole range of nations. Everything from, uh, what would we have— Latvia, Slovakia, um, Hungary, uh, Denmark, uh, a whole bunch of nations. Uh, so, so yeah, that was a cool vibe. We had— it's a FIS team hitting Europe Cup and FIS races. And, uh, yeah, that was the Northern Hemisphere program.

So what is a— what does a day look like for you guys in the Northern Hemisphere, Jack?

Uh, so we've got a couple really nice training hills just around the area. Uh, so we'll drive anywhere from 15 minutes to kind of 45 minutes to the training hills, and we'll do a training session that's kind of a 2 to 4 hour period on snow, and that'll be 8 to 12 runs in a, in a race course, um, doing timed training runs. Uh, with 2 to 3 warm-up runs beforehand and then 2 to 3 cool-down runs afterwards. That takes you through normally till about midday, head home, get some lunch, gym session in the afternoon, uh, ski preparation. I do my own skis and most of the guys on the team prepare their own skis. So that's an hour, hour and a half in the afternoon, most afternoons, uh, preparing edges, waxing skis, uh, and then it's video analysis and dinner and off to bed.

Hey, what are you— are you a hand tune or, uh, do you like the, the electric? What do you find?

I'm hand tune, uh, hand tune man. Uh, it's— I think it's a 50-50 between the kind of guys around the FIS Europe Cup level that, as far as I'm aware, when I talk to guys, it seems pretty 50-50. Um, but yeah, I prefer hand tuning. I I find I can actually do it quicker because I find the setup time for the machines is quite consuming, uh, and it's also very cumbersome. And I find the quality of the edge— I, I prefer the finish. Um, I find that I can get, uh, I don't like the machine finish. Leaves are like— it's hard to describe without showing, but it's like this you get these like lines in the edge that leave these tiny little bumps, and you can diamond stone it out, but it's a pain in the ass to diamond stone out because it, because it hits it with such high speed that actually hardens the metal slightly. So it's really hard to work with after you've machined the edge. Um, whilst when you hand tune, the, the edge isn't hardened, the metal is just easier to work with. Uh, so I find it easier to get a nice finish. Um, But yeah, everyone— some people reckon they can get a sharper with machines and prefer that finish.

What do you reckon, brother?

Personal preference.

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, and I think Jack touches on like an interesting point because like the personal preference, it's not even just like the tune, it's actually like the way it feels as well. Like a lot of people claim that it feels like very different depending on, you know, whether you've done a machine tune or a hand tune. And, and I remember when I was racing, I'm sure it's still the same, Jack can confirm it, you know, people would prefer like a hand tune if the snow was like really aggressive, for example. Um, or like if it's, if it's bulletproof ice, you know, Jack was just saying how like the machine tune will leave the edge with a harder finish because there's this like, there's this ceramic, uh, ceramic disc that really superheats the edge and it comes out harder. That's better if you're on super icy slopes, like injected slopes, because the edge will last a few runs longer. Um, but you know, if you, if you're like Jack and you just prefer a hand tune, maybe you will just do a hand tune even if it's, even if it's super icy because you like the feeling of that. Yeah. Uh, Jack, do you feel a difference? Like, is it something you prefer as well, like beyond just the, um, the, you know, the ease or like the, the speed of the tune?

Yeah, so, um, you touched on like the tuning for super icy conditions and the machine-tuned gets that hardened edge, which definitely a lot of people prefer when it comes to ice. The problem with that is that it's, it's hard to take it away from that. Sometimes if you're on really aggressive snow or softer snow or like any other type of snow that's not sheet ice, I find it easy to manipulate the edge a little bit to the conditions when it's not machine-tuned. And the reality is that most races, even Europe Cups, most time they're not cheat nights. Like, yeah, they, they, like, they're prepared as best as they can be, but to actually rock up and have a perfectly injected course is— it's actually kind of rare. Uh, World Cup, they're all very high level, um, but even then you get days where it's soft or aggressive, or there's, there's so many variations. And yeah, I just, I find the edge a lot easier to work with when it's not machine finish. Yeah.

What do you like? What's your favorite kind of, uh, surface, like, conditions to ski on?

Oh, um, like ice that's not just completely polished, uh, it's like ice that's still got a little bit of grip on it. Oh yeah, there are those days. Yeah, sliding down the course and it's just so icy that you're, uh, you're wishing you had about 10 pairs of skis on the hill.

Jack, I was gonna say, um, uh, do you like that like early morning spring ice?

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, that was always my favorite as well. Um, that is— so for the listeners, that's also the fastest type of snow. Like, it will take you from, you know, 0 to 100 real quick. Um, and And it's, and it's not very aggressive either. Like it's, it's quite slippery. You always have like a little layer of balliness on top. Um, so it's kind of like up to you how hard you stand on it, if you can stand on it that hard. But yeah, that stuff is wicked.

Yeah, absolutely. Like it's nice when it's not, cause it's not super aggressive. You have kind of flexibility. It's not kind of grabbing without you wanting it to, but at the same time it is ice. So when you do stand on it, you've just got full response. Ah, which is sick.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, Jack, how are you tuning like, uh, differently depending on the conditions? So for example, could you take us to like a tune, uh, for this really like non-responsive, unaggressive ice compared to like, uh, a Colorado day on super aggressive, um, like, like, you know, the Colorado, like even their injected snow is like really like got so much air in it, it's like um, still quite aggressive as well.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so, um, absolutely you adjust the edge for the conditions. I, I pretty much always tune to maximum sharpness, uh, because you— yes, you can look at the weather and kind of get an understanding of what you think it'll be like the next day, but in my experience, it, it just sometimes it's not what you expected. Um, so I always tune to maximum sharpness, and then I've just got a gummy stone on the hill, files on the hill, Diamondstone on the Hill, and then I'm tweaking it to the conditions if it's a race day after I've inspected. So I'll tune the warm-up ski pretty much to the same as a race ski, inspect the course on that warm-up ski, get a feel for the snow, and then go from there.

Yeah, cool. That's, uh, that's interesting. Hey, I'm going to rewind it here back to, uh, earlier days. So I mean, some people listening will know the name Paul Lorenz. But Paul Lorenz was your coach from a really early stage, and I mean, you can maybe speak to it, but, you know, I know we've discussed how sort of fundamental, like, the foundations he gave you, the skills, and like the picture to follow, how that was as, uh, as a young racer. Do you want to, do you want to speak to that, Jack?

Yeah, absolutely.

I was very, very lucky to bump into Paulie when I was about 6 years old, and what taught. It's called Treadbowland, which is the kind of kids' ski school at Treadbow in Australia. And I was very lucky. Paulie had just started his ski instructing journey, was I think about 16 or 17. I was 6 or 7. And he had the group I was in, which was the Extreme Rats or whatever we were called at the time. And we had an absolute ball. We had a great crew of a bunch of guys that ended up going into Race Club and a lot of guys that raced for a long time. Um, and yeah, we just had a really cool crew of young guys that ripped and we had an awesome time. And I ended up then skiing with Paulie for about 4 or 5 years, uh, after that. And we initially threw Threadbow like ski school programs where we just kind of stayed together. And then me and a couple mates took him as a private kind kind of coach for a couple years after that, uh, before I joined Fred Burski Racing Club. And that was, I mean, yeah, absolutely, absolutely fundamental to my development. I, I wouldn't be where I am without Paulie. Absolutely.

Like, what are some things you remember him kind of teaching you?

And maybe to that, was it, you know, now that you know a bit more, what was maybe different if you'd perhaps had a different instructor?

Paulie and I spent a lot of time outside of racecourse, um, a lot of time actually just skiing, ripping around the mountain, ripping through crud. Um, and I think that ultimately helped me become a more rounded skier. Um, and it was also a big focus on fundamentals from a very, very early point. We did a lot of drills. I remember a lot of days going very, very slowly. Doing a lot of different exercises, all sorts of obscure exercises. Um, and yeah, I mean, it was, it was great. And I think we— I was, I was just extremely lucky that Paulie was, uh, very, very interested in skiing and how to be the best skier. And he was, at a young age, he was developing his understanding of it all and was just absorbing all the knowledge he could from all around him. And was just applying it all to me at my 10-year-old self. So yeah, it was very cool.

Yeah, it's a bit— it is a bit of serendipity, isn't it, that you bumped into Pauli at such an early point in his career and, and you've become, uh, like a very high-level ski racer, and Pauli's also become like a legend in his own right, you know, not just in, in Australia but like internationally. Um, And obviously, like, Paul's had a big impact on you. I'd love to hear, like, you know, if Paul was a fly on the wall at the moment, like, I wonder what he would say about your impact on him, you know? Because as you said, like, he's learning.

He—

Paul soaked up information from everywhere and then applied it to you, right? And in a way, you were like his ultimate experiment, which turned out pretty, pretty bloody good. I'd love to— yeah, I wonder, I wonder, um, what he would say. I remember, Jack, that you guys not only do you spend a lot of time out of the racecourse, but you spend a lot of time out of skis too, didn't you? I remember like going down to the AIS in Thredbo, which is like the gym for all who's listening, but it's a huge sports hall as well. And you guys were always playing soccer, um, you would like on Swiss balls doing all sorts of stuff, um. Like, did you reckon like that kind of, uh, set you up for, for success when you were older? Like, you know, in terms of your dryland training and so on?

Absolutely. We, yeah, we did a lot of stuff off snow too. Um, it was really cool because Paulie introduced me to a lot of balance exercises, in particular balance exercises, from a super young age. And, um, I think that was really important because obviously the the brain is far more flexible at that young age, and your body's picking up skills far more quicker. So all of those obscure balance exercises we were doing on medicine balls and Swiss balls and jumping between all sorts of different things, I think definitely developed my just general athletic, uh, ability.

Uh, like, I remember joining, like, sometimes, like, I had James with me, uh, and, you know, we'd join in and you'd— we'd set up like obstacle courses where you had to jump onto a ball and then to a beam and something else and over something. And it was always like a bit competitive but fun and very much balance-focused.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We had a great time. Lots of little obstacle courses and games and all sorts of good stuff.

What do you think were— sorry, I'll finish that one. What do you think, yeah, were some of the best like drills, and maybe you'd put that into like fundamentals that he kind of taught you that you think really set you up? Like, do you remember him or you doing a lot of specific drills?

Yeah, like we— I'd say with the one that's still probably my favorite is just the basic parallel turn, um, which is, uh, very very basic exercise. Um, and something that I actually linked up with Paulie, uh, what, 2 years ago now, and we, we spent a bit of time skiing together, uh, and, and went back to some of these basic exercises and spent some time working together and working on with doing base parallel turns with the, with the very basic focus of trying to keep your skis actually parallel, which that on a very flat run going at very slow speed is much more difficult than you would think. Uh, starting the turn without separating the heels of the skis, like tails of the skis, or, uh, the tips at all, and keeping the skis completely parallel and actually moving symmetrically. And then starting the turn with an ankle roll rather than a heel push. Um, two things that at very slow speed on very flat ground is far more difficult than you would anticipate. So yeah, lots, lots of things like that, just like super slow, super basic movement patterns. Um, yeah, a lot, a lot of stuff like that, and it's still a big focus on mine.

Yeah, because I remember him, like, we'd talk and he'd be like, oh, Jack's been away on a camp and he's come back and he's got this weird something or other happening again. And he'd go out with you for like 2 afternoons and just drill you on, like, like a, like a, like you said, like a basic movement. And it might be more on your right foot than your left, correct? Like, and you, until you really fix that, and then you go away and work on it.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, uh, like, that goes to, I think, the camps that you're probably referring to. Like, I'd go and spend a lot of time in a racecourse with different, um, programs overseas or whatever, and I, I think a lot of people find this, but in my own experience, you tend to develop a lot of bad habits in race courses, uh, because you suddenly start doing funky stuff when the gates are there. And, uh, so then getting back out of the course and trying to kind of revert those habits.

Yep, yep, this is good, Tom, because I had the same question as well. I just want to dive a bit deeper into it, Jack. So, um, basic parallel That's a key one. Uh, what about like higher speed drills? Like, um, what, what are the type of drills you do like that are more like regular turn speed that, that are your go-tos? Or like, you know, Paul instilled in you?

Um, favorite high speeds, um, a, a big one, another very standard is, uh, tuck, high tuck turns. Um, I for a long time had a lot of instability in the upper body, uh, and the movement of my arms would ultimately cause a lot of bad things. Uh, high tuck turns is really one I love that just keeps upper body still and makes you focus on the legs. Um, another one is, um, a, like, a, a long traverse with a really big focus on the, the setup of the turn with a, um, like focus— with the focus of this, something we'll probably talk about later, like depth and patience at the top of the turn, um, and trying to really focus on a clean roll with depth at a higher speed with like a really exaggerated movement with a high— with a traverse across the hill, uh, rolling with that deep start to the turn, uh, it's kind of hard one to explain kind of without demonstrating.

Would you say like, like, uh, like if you'd, you'd be working on that if in a course or the coach or Paul or whatever was seeing you rush it, would that be correct?

Yeah, no, it's something I, I just work on like just do all the time to just kind of reset the, reset the habit, reset like muscle memory. Um, it's just lengthen the transition and really take the time at the start of the turn. Um, and do these kind of, if you're on slalom turns, do like a a really long transition with kind of a GS-sized turn. If you're on GS skis, it's almost Super-G turn transition, but then start trying to still arc a short arc, but really kind of focusing on the transition and developing the, the ankles in the right way. And yeah, nice.

Love the tuck turns, Jack. When you said you have instability, or you used to have a lot of instability in your upper body Uh, what, what type of instability you're referring to? Like, like rotation, counter, um, you know, even if it was like, like, like leaning in, or even if it was like your arms doing funky stuff that put you in weird positions. Um, like what, like let's say we were gonna prescribe that to like some of our listeners, what can they expect to fix from doing tuck turns?

Um, so for me personally, I at the start of the turn had a tendency to lift my outside arm Um, which was— could be argued kind of a chicken or egg, which one comes first— with, uh, tipping in, throwing the heels away from me and lifting the outside arm. Um, and it's like this kind of counterbalance movement that you do when you do a massive kind of drift. Um, or not even— doesn't even need to be a massive drift, but a small heel push. Um, you counterbalance movement with an arm raise. And so keeping that arm down and focusing on the ankles and developing the turn from the ankles and with an ankle roll rather than a heel push. Um, I guess like the tuck is just, it's just about bringing the focus to the legs and the feet. And, and that's because that's where you need to start the turn. Um, I, yeah, I had this tendency to lift the outside arm, throw the heels out, and then do a disgusting turn that was, um, but yeah, so staying, staying like a bit more over it at the top of the turn Yeah, absolutely.

Nice, that, that's, that's cool because, um, I think we've had a few racers on, like, like Harry talks about that, like everyone talks like, you know, kind of different cures to the same problem, but like the idea of staying really over the outside ski at the top of the turn comes up quite a lot.

Absolutely.

Um, yeah, so it's all something. Yeah, I remember I used to do tuck turns a lot because I had this like issue with countering, and I found that like tuck turns, it was just like way easier to understand uh, where my upper body was facing in relation to the fall line. So, you know, I would like enter the turn like in, in a way that felt almost like rotated to me in a tuck, but then I'd look on camera and see, oh, that's the alignment I really want. That's like, that's a bit more square. Um, like your, uh, the coach you'll be working with soon, Nils, you know, he loves being square, right?

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He loves skier races looking square. And I remember like the tuck really helped me with that because it just gives you like so much like unitability, which is obviously— that's not a word, but like it makes your upper body feel like a unit that you can really manipulate it as one. Yeah, yeah, totally.

That's right.

Hey, um, so what would be your like— what are your two biggest breakthroughs in skiing? Like, do you remember them? Was there one early on? Was there one more recently? Um, yeah, and then second to that, I know I've already asked this, but, or you've been preempted this, any of it counterintuitive or like opposite to maybe sort of what standard coaching feedback is given out there?

Yeah, for sure. Um, I'd say the biggest, the biggest thing for me, um, in both slalom and giant slalom and, and super-G is this idea of patience, which I briefly mentioned, um, and depth, which, uh, people kind of throw those words around, um, which is essentially, essentially it's timing. It's essentially starting to turn at the right time. A lot of people have the tendency to come into a turn, whether it's slalom, giant slalom, super-G, whatever, it's the same pattern, come to the turn and start the turn too early, which I often did. And that normally was a heel push movement, um, where you would steer, right, like rotate the foot under you, uh, and, or even if you tried to start turn, you actually were forced to then do a heel push because if you arc the turn from that point, you would either straddle the gate or ski completely inside of the gate. Uh, so it's this idea of waiting a fraction longer in the transition skiing like towards the forest is another word people kind of talk about, um, skiing away from the gate, giving yourself a space to then roll the ski up and do like a maximum impulse turn where you get the full bend out of the ski and full energy out of the ski without having to kind of pause or wait or steer the ski or do any of those funky things. Um, so that was, that was a really key thing. Um, that was, uh, Mick Branch was one of the first guys that kind of introduced me to that, uh, having some conversations about, um, yeah, about that years ago now. And that's something I've worked with a lot of coaches since.

Was it literally a conversation that it kind of finally clicked and you went out and did it, or what? Yeah, how did you, how did you actually get from theory to doing it?

Yeah, I guess it is kind of something I've— I think I'd pondered for a bit. I'd kind of felt like, um, like people kind of raise it in different ways. Um, it's like, oh, you're steering, you need a carve, um, you're lifting your arm up, you're like dropping your hip in too early, all these things. But ultimately it all came from starting turn too early. And so when Uh, yeah, like Mick was the first person to explain it to me, and when he explained it and we spoke about this idea of skiing a fraction further into the turn so that you could then arc back at the gate, um, and, and it makes so much sense if you actually just like draw like a couple gates on a piece of paper and like draw some lines. Like, you have to point the skis away from the gate to do a turn, and yeah.

The gate—

the tips of the skis should never be pointing inside the gate. Like, at no point from the start of the turn should the tips be pointing inside the gate. And if you took a freeze frame of me, I would have like 5 freeze frames where my tips are pointing inside the gate because I'm either sliding sideways or doing some funky thing. Um, so it's this idea of kind of like, it feels really strange because you're 1-2 meters above the gate and your tips are literally pointing the opposite direction to where you want to go. But you then need to just trust that the ski bends and the ski turns, um, turns back. Yeah, so that was a big one for me, uh, especially, especially in giant slalom, but also slalom. Um, and then the other one is, you know, the other kind of big breakthrough I had was the focus, moving the focus to the ankles. Um, and this idea of rolling actually rolling from the ankle and pivoting. The way I think about it in my head is you're pivoting from the foot instead of what I think I used to do is pivot from the hip, which sounds a bit weird. But essentially, if you took a picture of me at like the apex of the turn, it almost looks the same. Like I'm in kind of like high angulation, hips low to the ground, all that. But when you move from the hip, you're kind of pushing the feet away from you, you're dropping the hip vertically, and it looks good, but you've got no pressure on the outside ski. The ski is not bent at all, and there's no development of like rebound or energy or anything. Whilst vice versa, if you start the turn from the ankle and actually pivot from the foot, the ski flexes, the ski bends and you end up in a position that kind of looks the same if you take a picture, but the ski's bent and the ski's actually going to react. Um, so yeah, kind of bringing the focus to the ankles and that idea of depth and patience were definitely the two, two big breakthroughs I've kind of had. Um, yeah, you mentioned, um, yeah, go ahead, Sam.

Uh, I was just gonna say, Jack, so when you say the ankle I want to get into this because I think this is fascinating. So when you said the ankle, are you talking about like actual like foot movements inside the boot?

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No, not so much. Like, if you definitely feel— there's a difference between feeling contact, you like having— feeling the foot like connected to the ground. Um, and this idea of like you feel that like there's tension there, especially at the top of the turn. And you can— I find when I am on flat skis and I roll the skis on, you can feel that the ball of the toe and the heel is, is there, it's locked on, right? You've got this like tension. Whilst when you start the turn from the hip and you— what I would do was drop my hip vertically. So I would just sink into the turn to kind of fake the turn and push the feet away from me. Um, and, and when you do that, you don't get the same sensation on the foot. You don't get that, that feeling of tension, I guess, is a word that I feel. Um, but no, I'm not really thinking of like rolling the ankle inside the boot. It's more, for me, it's just It's starting from the feet and like rolling. I guess it is, I don't know, it depends on the feeling.

But it's, uh, like if you like right now sitting there and you're like pretending to do a turn on your right footer, like how would you— how would it feel if you were doing it statically now, the two different ways?

Um, one— okay, so one way is you are beginning by like— the focus is at the ankle. You are feeling the ball of your toe and your heel is connected to the ground, and you're kind of pivoting or levering from that point. And everything from there is like— is from there. The opposite is you're just pushing your foot away from you, and there's no kind of like development. It's, um, it still has resistance because it's obviously gripping the snow, but it's not, um, it's not like— yeah, it's not building, it's not flexing the skate, it's not doing anything. You're just pushing the skate away from you and it's totally straight and it's just not going to bend. And you end up in this super inside position where you kind of have to pull some sort of dodgy maneuver to get around.

Yeah, interesting, interesting, because that's, that's like a real I would say, wouldn't you say, Sam, that's kind of, I don't know, uh, from people we've talked to, like similar but sort of a little bit different from some people, like in terms of, um, and maybe it's got to do with pressure, right?

Like, yeah, there's, there's like similarities there because, um, like we, we hear, you know, it seems like there's a lot of people who are on like the same path and they're trying to figure out this a similar way. And, and people like find the way from different areas. So for example, you know, uh, talk at LINE and you had that conversation with Mick Branch, which was like, you know, maybe not like an— like, like a full-on light bulb moment, but it helped you like piece some stuff together. Uh, Paul, Paul Epstein, who we had on last week from Global Racing, explained like a very similar thing, right? That hip for like what he wants for his guys. And then, and then also there's the idea of like, uh, Jack, when you're talking about, um, rolling from the ankle, and then I was like, okay, so like, is it like a foot movement? And you're like, no, it's not a foot movement. But at the same time, you're still talking about feelings from like the ball of the, of the big toe and stuff, right? So that's really, uh, interesting. Tom and I have been talking a lot between us and like other people about like the, the actual foot and the roll inside the boot and, and thinking about it more as, um, you know, something that actually has impact upon the ski and is not just like in this prison that is a ski boot, right? It's not just like in a plastic thing. So really interested to, to— that's what we're kind of hammering you. We're really interested in like, what do you mean when you say like rolling from the ankles? Because really, if we think about just a ski boot, the ski boot can't roll. Right? It can roll this way, but it has no, has no movement. And, and that's why, um, we're really fascinated at the moment is like, like, what is that feeling of like rolling compared to pivoting? Because, you know, you end up in the same position, right? But one of them, the ski is flexing, and the other one, it isn't. And it's really, um, it's like, like we're finding out, it's really hard to explain like that sensation like that rolling at the top of the turn and so on.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's definitely a tricky one to put words to, um, but I guess like another key part of it is, um, like the ankle tension. Um, it's kind of related and also a separate thing, but, um, like a really important thing for me in staying balanced and staying forward is having my ankles engaged. And to me, that's not like crushing the front of the boot, it's just like the ankle is— like, the, the muscles in the front of the ankle are engaged and the foot is like locked there versus being kind of backseat where it's relaxed and the ankle's open. Um, but I feel like this is kind of, kind of similar thing where you like, you just feel that it's like engaged and there's tension. And it's like there versus— yeah, it's like not. And I don't know, it's kind of— oh yeah, I feel like you've got to—

no, I know what you're saying there. Like, uh, speaking with a, uh, like a mentor about this, how he's kind of describing it, like, like in skiing there's moments where you're definitely like lots of pressure between you and the ground, so you're kind of getting squashed into the edge, right? So it's very easy to kind of feel what's going on because things are coming together, the ground and you. And then there's moments like we're talking about in that transition top of the turn where you're a bit more floaty, like not as connected, correct?

Correct.

And so that, that ankle tension, I think a lot of people, everything's relaxed because they're waiting for ground reaction to then think about tensioning. But maybe what, like, I know I certainly think about it when I'm in open chain or when it's kind of like floating, you have to close the chain of your muscular, like, skeletal system off with tension so you're ready. And there's like less lag, like you close it off, bam. Then when you actually have ground reaction force on top, you're already ready, you're already preloaded even more. Things happen quicker, uh, and with more ease as opposed to just being no tension.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, so that's cool. I have, uh, because I, I totally agree with you about like this idea of the ankles and like the ankles being like quite tense and, and active inside the boot. Um, and I'm also still wearing a, a pretty stiff race boot, but I'm finding that like that stiffness is like less to do with my performance and more to do with how my ankle can can, uh, you know, be active inside the boot. Um, Jack, do you find like that, you know, a super stiff race boot, like relative to like a recreational boot anyway, um, it's more like a support mechanism rather than something to like hammer the front off? Is that, is that kind of what you feel like in terms of like what you're describing with, um, keeping a really tension ankle?

Yeah, for sure. Um, I feel like there's kind of two scenarios. There's like where you're just generally skiing and you've just got like that stiff— the stiffness is just, as you say, like a support that's holding everything stable. And it's also when it's stiff, it responds more effectively. Like when you— it's like if you push into a sponge, the sponge is not going to move because it's going to like absorb you. But if you push into something hard, it's going to move because it like responds all of that force. So when you've got a hard boot, all of the energy is like transmitted directly into like bending the ski. Well, so you've got a soft boot, it's like absorbing that. So there's that element. And then the other element is when you're just hitting massive ruts and your foot is just getting thrown all around, and the boot actually holds you there if you've got a soft boot. And you just buckle. Like, it's just super difficult to ski when your ankle just like crumples into the boot because you just hit a massive bump and like the boot can't hold you stable. So there's kind of the two scenarios there I kind of think about.

Yeah, I can relate. It's— it is, uh, a pretty gnarly feeling when you're skiing like 120 K's an hour and your 150 flex boot just completely crumbles in these huge ruts.

Yeah, that is wild, Billy. Makes it very difficult to ski when that happens.

Oh yeah, it makes you feel very fragile, that's for sure.

Hey, hey, Jack, if you were head of the Thredbo Ski Racing Club now, like say you decide to retire but you wanted to get into coaching, would that— like, what would you do with, with the kids, with the team? Would you change anything? Yeah, with, with all this sort of experience you've got.

Um, yeah, so I like relating back to that breakthrough I kind of talked about with patience and depth. I would definitely focus on that as soon as kids are going to gates, even like before they're going into gates, preparing them to go into gates with this idea of depth and patience. Because if all— there's so many bad habits that rise from bad timing. Um, as soon as you start trying to start the turn too early you start steering the ski, you start throwing your arms around, you start doing these crazy drifts. Like, there's all these things that arise from just starting to turn at the wrong time. And I feel like if you can really ingrain the right timing at a young age— I wish I had about that. I wish I, uh, yeah, definitely my timing was a little bit better from that young age because, uh, I feel like I developed a lot of bad habits from poor timing. Um, but I know, actually know that, uh, the guys at TSRC are working on this. I know Craig Branch is Mick's brother. He's there and he's putting a big focus on this. Uh, I've watched him teaching, working with the kids on this, so— oh yeah, yeah, that's really good.

Yeah, that's cool. Craig goes on top. I was just saying, Craig, you know, yeah, they have a pretty, um, decorated ski racing family, the Branches. You know, Mick Mick being a US ski team coach, helping like multiple people get to World Cup victories, and then Craig being a World Cup downhiller himself with, you know, top 30 finishes as an Australian, which is, you know, like a battle in itself. I'm pretty sure he was still tuning his own skis as well. Probably was at the World Cup.

Yeah, but I—

but Jack, I totally agree. Um, Like, I think that, you know, obviously Craig knows about this stuff, um, Mick knows about this stuff, but I was in the same boat as you. I really didn't hear about the idea of like really like late pressure, taking it deep, and also getting like an articulate understanding of like what that means until I was pretty late in the game. I think, you know, maybe 18, 19 years old is when I started to really hear about that. And it's still such like an almost esoteric subject within coaching. There's just not that much knowledge about the line, and it's like so fundamental. Um, I, I can't wait to see what, you know, under-12s at TSRC, like, learning that now, are going to turn out like. Because, you know, I remember steering into the top of the turn when I was younger and hearing nothing about that, you know.

Yeah, it's absolutely—

yeah, yeah, Sam's actually— that's his next project is making a video on this part of the turn, um, because it keeps coming up, keeps coming up.

And I think it—

like, you know how it started with Mick, you know, the conversation— the first place would be like, sit down, like you said, Jack, if you draw the gates and a line, like, it's pretty obvious like the explanation. So at least you get the concept, then it becomes a little bit more about trusting the bend in the ski, not being a wuss, you know, sending it towards the trees even though you're trying to go the other way. Um, but at least that theory part you understand, like the— yeah, the theory part of it.

Yeah, for sure.

Um, okay, so let's say you're on a really steep track, so you're at Alta Badia World Cup or Val d'Isère World Cup GS, like relentlessly steep. And everybody listening to us, they— I think they can get a good grip of what we're talking about, but then they go and watch a World Cup and they see Marco Odermatt sliding like into half of his turns, right? And then they think, well, what are they like? What's all this chat about pure carving and, and taking it deep? Um, Can you explain to our listeners best you can why that is? And then also, how does someone do a good slide when they absolutely have to?

Yeah, so I mean, that's the, the classic kind of question, uh, what do you do when it's too steep to carve? Um, and that's something that we, we spent a lot of time training, uh, some, some very steep, uh, hills around Italy and I'm working on exactly this. Um, and I guess like then it— then there is a point where you can't pure carve the turn. No, and no one— well, I mean, maybe theoretically you can, but no one does. Um, and so at that point then it's who steers the least and who skis the deepest. Who skis the deepest, pretty much. Who traverses across the hill and skis into the turn that meter extra on a clean ski before steering, like cutting the top of the turn off and then setting the edge. Like, there's, there's the difference between coming in and 3 meters before the turn steering the skis and sliding, or coming in and 1 meter before the turn steering the ski to kind of just cut that top of the turn off and then carving from there. Um, so it just comes down to who— I think, in my opinion, it comes down to who can who can skate the deepest and the cleanest whilst it's not going to be completely clean, if that makes sense.

Yeah. And with the— so then back to the ankle thing, how do you deal with that feeling, that sensation you're looking for where the pivot point's the ankle, you're not trying to shift the feet out? Would it be like you start ankle, then there's going to be a bit of a shift for a moment, back to the ankle? Like, how would you— would you be able to Have you thought about that? He's frozen. That's right, I can take that. Oh, there he goes, he's back.

Did you hear that, Jack?

Yep, I—

oh, frozen again.

Maybe when he comes back, Tom. Ask the same question and we'll edit that.

Okay, yeah, we'll edit that part. See if it messages me here. Um, yeah, but you know what I mean, like— oh, there we go. Oh yes, we can hear you. Hello.

Yeah, you're back.

Okay, you're back.

Yeah, sorry, I heard the first half of that.

Okay, so I'll ask the question again. So, so back to your focus, like that key focus of the, the ankle roll pivot being down at the, at the, at the ankle and the foot instead of the hip and shoving the feet out. How, how would that go on that steep section?

Yeah, so it's, it's still— for me, it's still about keeping the feet underneath you. Um, it's still trying to you're still kind of pivoting from the ankle, you're still turning from the feet, you're not pushing the feet away from you and dropping the hip. Uh, you just, you're just having to do actually a slight rotation with the foot to cut the top of the turn off. So you like— the key is to keep the feet underneath you and not end up with this position where the feet get pushed away in the drift, because at that point you can't then engage the outside ski. Like, you need to keep that, um, that connection to the feet. And that's where the ankles come in. So like, it, it's, it is a bit of a tricky one though then, because then it's, it's actually doing a steered turn. But I guess, I guess the difference is like, it's doing like kind of a classic instructor short turn, um, where that is not purely carve, it's, it's a steered turn, but you're very on top of the skis. Um, so it's doing something like that rather than just like throwing the skis away from you. Um, yeah, because you kind of— you're just kind of lost at that point. Yeah, yeah, if that makes sense.

Yeah. And, and Jack, how do you marry the idea of staying, staying over it and staying connected to the ski but then not over-pressuring in the stivet, right? It's like a big part of that stivet is also like staying like light as a cat and then spanking it. Um, yeah, yeah, like I always had a lot of trouble with that. Um, absolutely. So I'd love to hear your take on it.

I'm not going to pretend that I get this right when it comes to super steep, super injected. Yeah, you— I mean, at the end of the day, at some point you're just trying to survive as well. So all of this comes— becomes pretty difficult. But I mean, in theory Um, it's— yeah, I mean, it's a really, it's a really difficult one getting the balance right, as you say, Sam, because you, when you're on ice, you need to hammer it, like, to get the grip, because otherwise you're just not gonna get the grip. Um, if you kind of like half-ass the point of pressure, the ski just won't bite, the edge won't bite. Um, so yeah, so absolutely, it's this balance between kind of this light, uh top where you then hammer the edge at the kind of point where you can then carve it, and then also trying to like maintain tension with the feet. So it's— it is definitely tricky, but I guess the key thing is that you, you're balanced and connected the whole time. There's never a point where you are pushing the feet away from you, which is definitely a bit of a tricky one because you're like, you're pushing really hard against the snow, um, but it's just not— it's not letting yourself become disconnected. You, you've always got— yeah, it's, it's a funny one where, like, I, I just— I'm imagining this feeling I get where I start the turn, and I start the turn by just pushing my heels away from me, and you'd end up disconnected to your feet, kind of, even though obviously that— obviously they're still connected to you.

Yeah.

Um, but you don't have this, like, you just don't have like this engagement, this feeling that we've been talking about. Um, and yeah, so I guess it's like, yeah, it's a tricky one because as you say, it's so hard.

Hey, like, like, that's why I think, you know, ski instructing at times and coaching takes a lot of work, and you really have to be like thinking about yourself because we all have little nuances about, well, it's a little bit different for me here and there. And, and actually, like, the words— to put words to it, it's sometimes— yeah, there's sometimes not words. Like you said, you have these feelings, which is way more important, right? When you get on the course, you're just like, I know what it feels like. Oh, that was a great turn.

That was a great one.

Oh, that one was like this. And so you're just trying to figure out ways to describe what that was. But yeah, it's so difficult, isn't it? Like, absolutely.

And then, I mean, the other thing is like, you can, you can sit here and kind of talk about like the feelings and like the theory of what you're trying to do, but like I find, and I know some of my mates that I train with find, like sometimes the fastest runs you have in a training day, the day is where you just completely forget about everything and just try and send it as hard as you can. So there's like, yeah, as well, that, that balance of like, just forget it all and just go for it.

Um, totally. So yeah, totally.

So it's definitely a, it's a balance. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So Jack, I'd love to hear a bit more about where you're at. Um, in fact, like, we can rewind like a year. How's your past year been? Um, you know, training results-wise, uh, what's your plan coming back into training the southern season? And, you know, what are your goals, uh, for the next year or so? You know, new— like, Olympics just finished, new cycle. Um, what's, what's the roadmap?

Yeah, yeah, so as I said, I was in, um, Europe over the summer in Italy, uh, back home at the moment, heading to New Zealand in a couple weeks. I'll do the season in New Zealand training with Niels Koberger, uh, and then, and then heading over back to the same team, Komplatz Race Center, in Italy start of November or end of October. And then this season, it's— I've done a couple Europe Cups now. I haven't got a top 60 result, which means I haven't got a second run yet. So definitely this season, want to be getting a top 60, getting a second run in Europe Cup, and then ideally getting as close, or if not in the top 30, getting into that Flip. Uh, and then, yeah, I mean, it's just the the constant trying to improve the old FIS points and get the world ranking down. Um, really trying to work down towards the, the top 250 world rankings. Bit of a— is like a next tier in the national team system. So that's a goal for me. Um, the top 250 world ranking and, and yeah, the Europe Cup results, they're definitely my two priorities this season.

Yeah, that's a, that's a great one. Uh, just for some context for everyone listening, the top 250, that's probably like the top 2% in the world. So it's, you know, Jack is like really pushing to get into like a very high level. Um, and, and also just even some context compared to other sports, I think a lot of our, um, like for example, like snowboarder cross, I think there's maybe like 500 or under active snowboarder cross athletes in the world. Uh, top 250 will get you in like the top 2% of alpine skiers, right? So just for some context for everyone, like, like how competitive it is, you know, when Jack says that he's going for like a top 60 in Europa Cup, a Europa Cup is, you know, more or less like the, um, the, the, the, you know, F2, like compared to F1, or like the, the B league um, that's, that's the level it's at. You know, we're talking top 60, that's still against some of the best skiers in the world. Quite often there's World Cup guys in there, um, just for some, some context around, um. So Jack, uh, you're looking for your second run in Europa Cup, which would be epic. I'm really looking forward to seeing you pull that off. Um, what do you reckon is, is like gonna be the formula for you to get there? Like, are you making some some changes to this, uh, coming season, like, like, what do you feel is the— is going to be like that, you know, crack the egg moment? Or like, you know, whether it's technical, uh, could be, uh, you know, your physical training, mental training. Um, yeah, what do you think is, is the recipe?

Ah, that's a million-dollar question, isn't it, Sam?

Yeah.

Um, yes, I mean, at the moment I'm working on the physical side pretty heavily. I'm a pretty, uh, pretty lean guy. I'm about 80 kilos, 185 centimeters, for people that are interested. So, um, working towards getting that up towards the kind of 83 kilo mark, even towards the 85 kilo mark. So definitely working on, at the moment, on the physical side quite heavily. Um, And then once we get back on snow, it's a lot of the stuff we've been talking about. It's the, it's the patience, it's the timing, it's, um, the, the connection with the ankles, and it's, it's just getting it better and better. And, and it's, it's doing it on more turns. Um, I'd say I, I, I've done all of these things, I'd say, to a really high level on turns, but I don't do it every turn. And I need to— you need to do it every time. You can't make a mistake really at all. So it's just upping the consistency. The consistency. It's just upping the consistency. That's a big part of it. But then like also like something— yeah, that's a big thing, I think.

Like, do you mind if I ask, do you feel that the mental thing gets— you know, you're at the top of a pretty important race in Europe Do you— how's your mental game? Do you feel it's pretty good? Are you relaxed?

Yeah, I mean, mental game's something I, I'm always working on, always kind of developing my strategies, I feel like, uh, always learning, I feel like, uh, with that. Because I, I find if I am too amped up, too fired up, I blow out. DNF. Um, if I'm too calm, too relaxed, I am just slow. So it's finding that middle ground, trying to figure out the things that put me in that state prior to race. Um, but yeah, absolutely, Tom, like the mental state's super important, and there are days that are just complete write-offs entirely because of the mental state. Um, and so Yeah, it's, it's a work in progress to try and find the things that put me in the right state and then trying to kind of replicate that process every race day, every training day.

Yeah, that one's the hardest one, like, I reckon, for most people. Um, yeah, and like figuring out how to do that, that's really tricky, hey? Like, there's again, the resources out there are kind of like hard to come by, and it's very personal. But yeah, good, good luck with that. That's— yeah, look forward again to hearing how your New Zealand season goes. You'll obviously have some races over there, and then— yeah, yeah, so we'll keep an eye on— we'll keep an eye on that. It's been great chatting.

The mental state just becomes more and more important. I feel like the higher level you get, it becomes a bigger percentage of the outcome of whether it's a good day or not. Yeah, yeah.

Actually, I got a final question regarding that. Jack, um, do you find that the mental state, like, um, uh, does it impact you, like, say how gnarly the course is? Do you find, like, if it's, if it's really gnarly, like, you know, you can feed off that? Or, you know, does, does the particular day, the conditions and so on, like, impact your performance quite a lot?

Yeah, good question. Uh, Absolutely. When it's super steep, super icy, super gnarly, um, you've gotta, you've gotta attack it. Like, if you don't attack it, you just, you just have no chance. Uh, so there's definitely, you've got to lift the, lift the aggression, I think, a little bit on those days. Um, oh, it's not, it's not even that, it's kind of just maintaining the same. Actually, yeah, it's not lifting the aggression. It's attacking it the same way you would attack a flat hill. Um, it's not with this crazy aggression, but it is— you're attacking it like you are going for it. And when you're then on a super steep, super icy hill, it's attacking it with the same mentality, even though it's scary. Like, absolutely, there are days where I'm shitting myself. I'm not gonna say I don't. And you, like, you gotta just attack it.

Um, can I say, like, do you remember, like, a particular event where you, you, you applied that? It was, like, maybe a bit sketchy, scary, but for some reason you're like, nope, this is all good, relaxed, ski it. Like, do you remember? Have you had one of those?

Yeah, for sure. Um, I guess the, the number one day for me would be World Junior Champs at Davos in, uh, 2018. The Super G. It was a— I mainly do slalom and giant slalom and do a couple Super Gs, but this was the gnarliest Super G I'd ever done. And yeah, I was completely shitting myself. So it's, uh, it's— yeah, I, I, um, yeah, I, I feel like I got myself into a pretty good state and attacked it and it went pretty well. But, uh, yeah, it's, it's funny. I, I'm a keen surfer in my spare time and Surfing big waves is kind of similar to skiing hectic speed courses, and I guess it's— I kind of try and replicate that a little bit. You just, yeah, you just got to attack it, and once you do, like, once you catch one wave, you're so comfortable. Once you do one turn, you're so much more comfortable. You just got to get that first turn done.

Yeah, awesome.

How did you go there, Jack?

Uh, oh geez, you're testing my memory to tell my actual exact result, but, uh, I think, I think I was like around, um, I think I was around 40th or so. I can't remember exactly, but it was, it was, it was a really, really high DNF rate, uh, heaps of crashes. So, so I, uh, yeah, it was a good race.

Yeah, I, um, that's, that's a really respectable result, especially from a tech skier. Like just diving into like what's, what's a pretty hectic Super G. Um, I, I remember the, uh, getting into a similar state, um, when I was at the bottom of the, the World Champs track in Beaver Creek in 2015. And I just, I watched live when Bode Miller, like, I mean, this crash like ended his career, right? You know, he took the biggest digger and like sliced, sliced his hamstring open. You could see there was blood and, and so on. And I was just like, wow, like, I totally got to go and send this thing now.

Yeah, actually, so I had to say similar thing. We were all sitting in the cafe, we had the live, uh, but it was like out of the top 15 guys, I think 8 of them DNF'd, and it was just carnage, like massive cartwheels, like guys taking out gates, hitting the beat, Eddie. I mean, not quite the level of Bodhi's crash, but Yeah, I know the feeling.

Yeah, the— I saw that Crans-Montana just got the World Champs in 2027. Jack, assuming you're still racing then, that is an epic hill. Um, I raced World Juniors there in 2011. Unbelievable hill. It's like one of those real classics. So, um, yeah, would love to see you there and hopefully, uh, going for the top 30s and all the podiums by that point. Um, Yeah, Jack, been great, great chatting to you, mate. Thanks a lot.

Yeah, no worries, guys.

Thanks for having me.

Sponsors, like, because this doesn't— especially when you come from a, you know, smaller nation, it doesn't happen that easily. So yeah, quick shout out to who's been helping you.

Yeah, uh, Vocal, obviously got the Vocal jumper on there. Number one supporter, Marker and Dalbello, obviously. Uh, yeah, those guys are awesome. Uh, big shout out to them. Uh, and yeah, that's, that's the main one for me. Mom and dad, but thanks for having me, guys. And obviously, yeah, thanks so much.

Thanks so much for your time, Jack. And yeah, seriously, massive good luck, and, uh, let's, let's hope you have some really good results.

Awesome. Thanks, guys.

Now, if you're really into your skiing like everyone on this podcast is, I invite you to check out my website bigpictureskiing.com. We do lessons, dryland training, equipment setup, technical talks, everything that we think about in skiing we put on there and share with people, with our members, to help them enjoy their skiing and get their skiing up to the next level. So there's a 7-day free trial, head over there. Hope you enjoyed that, and also check out, there's many more episodes of the Big Picture Skiing podcast. You can find it on Spotify and iTunes, as well as plenty of other videos on the Tom Gellie Big Picture Skiing YouTube channel. Hope you have a great day, thanks for tuning in, see ya!