Johnny Davidson Coaching the Attacking Vikings

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Big Picture Skiing Podcast. This week's guest is very special, isn't that right, Sam? We've got the— one of the ex-coaches of the Norwegian Alpine team joining us, along with a former guest, Paul Epstein from Global Ski Racing. Now, really cool chat. We had some incredible insights from a guy who's coached one of the— probably the most successful alpine skiing teams in the world. Sam, what are some of your favorite takeaways from this chat?

Yeah, it was a really good chat, uh, and as Tom said, he's a former coach, but he only stopped coaching the team a couple of months ago, so he's really fresh out of it. He coached some of the most promising young stars in the Norwegian team, but when we say promising by Norwegian standards, it basically means that they're already winning World Cups and they're in the early 20s. Names like Atle McGrath, Lucas Broughton. Johnny really, uh, you know, helped bring these guys up to the fold, and him and Paul are really good friends. Um, some of my key takeaways, Tom, that I really liked was when Johnny kind of touched on the culture of the Norwegian team, how it's like a cool thing to, to train hard, to, to be smart, to, to give it your best. And, you know, compared to like other places out there, sometimes it's like cool to, you know, do well even if you're not trying hard. Whereas in Norway, they're really giving it 110% from a young age. And, you know, there was like kind of that through line where he's talking about how the guys he worked with, like, they were, you know, they wanted to be champions from a young age. They didn't just want to make the Norwegian team. Right. And that's like, there's a big part of the culture there.

What about you?

For me, I really enjoyed hearing how Johnny would get the athletes involved in movement analysis and video coaching sessions. So, and, you know, he really wanted to make sure that athletes did not rely on him to know whether they'd had a successful run or not. And so that story of where he, he had a new athlete on the team and he was trying to coach him on something, and he brought Lucas Barton in to explain, explain it from his perspective. So same thing but from another perspective. So really cool that I think that's very like a, a modest trait and realizing, you know, it's not just about him getting, him getting the results. He wants the team to get results. So back to like the, the team environment thing, he just emphasized that, that so much. Yeah, so that was, that was my favorite part.

It was pretty cool. And also having, uh, him and Paul like playing off each other, right? Obviously like they're good friends, they go way back, they used to race together, and now they're both like really successful coaches. And how like, you know, they call each other every now and then to, um, you know, if they need, if they kind of need, uh, someone to vent to or, uh, yeah, even like opinion from, you know. It's, it's pretty wild that like these guys, this high level, like, like giving each other advice and backing each other up even though they're like working for different teams.

And also feel that they're not, you know, feel down on themselves at times, that they're doing a really bad job. And the other one will actually say, no, you're not, you're a great coach. And so it was cool to also listen to their friendship. So anyway, I think this is a fascinating insight to hear from someone who's coached at the very top level. And then Paul coming along too to add some pieces here and there. I think it's a really Fascinating lesson. Now, on the, on the coaching side of things, a plug for our business, bigpictureskiing.com. We run online coaching as well as the subscription video library all year round. So at the moment, in the off-season, we are coaching people getting ready for the winter with our body prep program. And so they do weekly live classes where we check their form and go over various different exercises, and people can send in video to check form, and the group sort of shares that. And so you learn from everyone else's, uh, mistakes or learning, you could say. And we're getting some really great results. People's sort of knees getting a lot better, back pain, all that sort of stuff. And just people getting very ready for the upcoming ski season.

And then also, um, Tom, like, my favorite part about what we're focusing on at the moment is like body awareness, right? It's not just about strength, mobility, but it's about knowing where your body is in space and like learning in like a safe environment, you know, like learning away from being on snow with the speed, the, the obstacles, the terrain. Um, you know, you can really practice the, the moves that, and that your body should be doing on snow, off snow. And that's right, you know, if you can really own exactly what those positions are, then you're going to come back to the snow, well, hopefully skiing better. That's our goal at least with our clients, is that they come back skiing left.

Many people sort of do, do this alongside like their regular gym routine or whatever, whatever else they're doing— cycling, running— and find that it complements really, really well because of the body awareness piece and, you know, realizing what their feet are doing. So many people are amazed that, you know, now when they're walking, they're aware of every piece of their body and how that contributes to better balance and more efficiency and that sort of thing. And then, and like you said, coming into ski season, when you make those short turns or long turns and someone's saying, hey, you need to change this part of the turn, having the awareness to just move one small bit with a couple of little muscles and adjust things without throwing everything else off is, is key to getting to that higher level.

If I think a good way of putting it, Tom, is if you're someone who uh, you know, feels one way when they're skiing. Maybe you're coming down, you feel like, oh, I'm doing this great run, or like things feel different, or maybe you don't feel that great at all. Like, let's just say you feel one way on slopes and then you see a video of yourself and you look completely different, right? That's like a— what we call like a kinesthetic gap. Like, your body awareness is not lining up with exactly what your body's actually doing. If, if that's you, then this is a pretty good program for you. So definitely, um, We're going to have the, the link in the description, or you can go to Big Picture Skiing and just click on the Academy tab up top. At the moment, um, you have to apply for the Academy. You can't just come in. Uh, it's still just Tom and I, and we have fairly limited spots because we really like to give the utmost attention to everyone who's in the program. But basically, you can apply. If we like your application, we'll also give you a free lesson. So you can, uh, that's a free Zoom call with myself or Tom, so you can actually um, see what online coaching with us is like, see if it's right for you. Um, and then of course it gives us an opportunity to meet you and, and see if, you know, you'd be a good fit for the program as well. So, um, please apply. Um, and yeah, we look forward to coaching you.

And that goes well into the, the final thing I'll say that, you know, when winter hits in the Northern Hemisphere, December, we will be running the Academy again, which was a big success last season. So people that want to spend half a season to a full season getting consistent coaching, being able to send video any time of day and get a short, concise bit of feedback from Sam or I instantly that you can apply, and videos supporting it, weekly Zoom classes to build the fundamental understanding and dryland exercises. We begin that in December, so you can apply now for that too because it'll, uh, it'll fill up pretty quick. I know there's a lot of people coming back. And, uh, yeah, but we look forward to, to the keen people that are there that want to do it for the winter. We don't believe sort of as much in this, the one-on-one, you know, just one-off stuff. It's like, no, you need more time and consistency to work on things. Uh, yeah, we welcome you to join.

Yep. Yeah, we're excited. I was just gonna say, Tom, like, we're gonna have some guys now who are doing, uh, the annual, so they're doing body prep into the ski season that they're doing all year round. So if you're someone who loves skiing and you want to really improve all year round, there's, there's that option now. That's a new one. Um, anyway, that's a hell of an intro from us. So Tom, let's get into the podcast.

Johnny, Paul, thanks for coming on the Big Picture Skiing podcast. Hey Johnny, I've, I've never met you. This is the first time. Uh, all I know is you were the former coach of the Norwegian Alpine Team. How did you end up in that position?

That was a pretty circuitous route. I grew up as a ski racer in Canada, um, and I was never that good, but I loved it and I wanted more than anything to be a ski racer. Um, and then when I was about 20 years old, I kind of had to decide, do I want to go to college and keep racing? And maybe at that time it was the feeling of foregoing my World Cup dreams, or keep grinding it out in Canada. And so actually, thanks to Paul, I got a scholarship to the University of Vermont, and, um, I raced there for 3 years, and then I did, uh, 1 year in Europe. And then at that time I was 25 and I never really planned on coaching. I thought, I'm just going to keep racing, keep racing. I'll be so old, I'll need to move into the real world. Um, and then, so at 25, after racing in Europe for a year and not doing what I expected, I just kind of realized, okay, it's time to move on. Uh, I think I can't get any more money from my parents to keep this dream alive and I need to do something else. And then luckily I was offered a job. I just finished a Bachelor's of Psychology, offered a job to be the assistant coach at UVM, and I thought, well, this is a great opportunity. I can, I can coach for 2 years, which I'd still love skiing, and then do my MBA and forego the real world for 2 more years. And then I just started. I loved coaching, gave me the same feelings I had as a racer. Except for with 10 athletes, there's a lot more chance of having a good day than as myself as a racer. Um, and there I, I didn't really know or have much of a philosophy on coaching. I just tried to set up the program I wanted as a college athlete. Um, and I thought that— I mean, Paul and I had long discussions over years about how college skiing could be so much better. So I just tried to implement that, and I would originally plan to be 2 years while I did grad school, went 3 years and 4 years, and then we were developing a really good team. And I, I wanted to— okay, I want to win an NCAA championship with Vermont, which we hadn't done in a long time, and then I'm going to be done coaching. And so in 2012, we won the national championship. And then I got offered a job by Kip Harrington to work with the Canadian World Cup men's tech team, and I thought, wow, this is going to be an awesome 2-year— I'll just do it 2 years, go through the Olympics, and then I'll move on. So 2 years into that, um, just before Christmas, Alpine Canada had huge budget problems, uh, and then myself and one of the other coaches got let go 5 days before Christmas, and I thought, this is crazy. That time I was working with the development team, and we had 8 athletes and 2 coaches, and we were already like unable to do enough for the guys. And to have one coach do it, I thought it was impossible doing 4 events. So I said, okay, I'll keep your severance money, I'll work through World Juniors. And then just at that time, I got a call to coach a PG or postgraduate a college team or high school team here in Norway. So I thought, I love Scandinavia, why don't I do that for one year? That's a great life experience. So I came for one year, um, decided to do another year while doing some finance work in Norway, and then I was offered a job with the Europa Cup team again. I thought, okay, I'll do this for two years, this will be fun, it'll be a new experience. And then ended up with the Europa Cup guys for 3 years. And then at that third year, half of our group— so we had 4 athletes move up to the World Cup team. And I thought, oh, this is a great experience, I'll do this for a couple years. And then so here we are, I was 3 years with the World Cup tech team. And then just this last season I thought, okay, if I am going to step away ever, I better do it now after the Olympics because it's never going to be, uh, ideal time. So it was never really a planned trajectory or my goal is to move here. It was just kind of things fell into place and seemed right. Um, yeah, so long story.

Paul, why do you think— because you, you know Johnny for a long time— what do you think are some attributes that helped him? You know, why, why did he go on that path and end up being in that position? From your opinion?

Oh, I mean, I've always said for the longest time that Johnny's the best coach I know, and I think he thinks I'm always bullshitting him, but I do, I do believe it. But I think, um, I think Johnny's a bit similar to the way that I got into coaching. It was a bit unexpected, unplanned, untrained for in terms of Like, we don't really come from coaches education kind of thing. It was just more of a passion for the sport, passion to give athletes something that we didn't have, or put the athletes in a position or an environment that we felt that we weren't able to be part of, or something like that. Basically, the best that we could come up with. So I think, you know, there's a few things I think with Johnny that makes him the coach that he is, was, is that passion to give athletes what he would want if he was in that position and constantly keeping that in mind instead of just simply focusing on sort of like just a technical side. Where you're just simply trying to like change technical movements, because there's so much more to developing a ski racer than just making some technical movements, you know, the, the environmental side, the mental side, the emotional side, all that's really important. And Johnny is very dedicated to his athletes, uh, he's very emotionally tied to his athletes, um, you know, Johnny and I kind of— it's not— we don't really joke about it because it's kind of true. I mean, I don't know how many times I've written Johnny after I've had countless bad results with my guys. I've been like, man, I'm terrible at this. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. I just don't think it's for me. And then Johnny always, you know, gives me the, you know, the best friend advice, you know, like, ah, don't worry, you're a good coach. And I'm like, yeah, like when you come in last and your mom says you had a good race, you know. But then Johnny would have a bad race, right, or with his guys, and, uh, he would write the same thing to me. I'm terrible at this. I don't know what I'm doing, blah blah blah. And You know, and so, you know, something Johnny always said to me, which is true, and it's even more true for Johnny, is that even when there are these bad results, like, you know, you're doing an extremely good job. You're always passionate, and the reason that you're upset that things are not going well is because you care so much and because you're so passionate. And that's, I think, what Johnny brings so much to the whole team environment with all his athletes, and I think that's why he has such a a good connection and such a high success rate, you know. And that's one thing that I sort of judge with Johnny over the years is that, you know, he brought so many of his athletes that are on the World Cup now up through the ranks. So it's not like he just came to the Norwegian team and started coaching Henrik and was like, yeah, I'm a successful coach, you know. It wasn't that way. It was a development process. And that's how for me I judge whether a coach is someone who is successful or has talent in making changes if you see them actually develop an athlete, change an athlete, and Johnny has done that time after time. But I think his passion and his drive to keep a really good team environment and a tight bond between everyone, I think that makes Johnny an extremely good coach.

Thanks, Paulie. But I think just to touch on some things Paul said there, also for me looking from the outside, sighted coaches or groups. I think everyone that I really respect in, uh, in the ski world, it's like, it's their passion for the sport and they're really putting athletes for, uh, like prioritizing the athletes and each individual athlete. And, you know, you see a lot of people coaching a superstar, but like, how does— is the group really improving? That's also kind of a barometer I use. And that can be going from 80 points to 60, and the whole group is improving a lot. It doesn't mean you're winning, you're coaching a world champion. Um, so I think that's important. And when you're coaching, to keep that and like keep the passion for the sport and really prioritizing the athletes. And if you do that, you'll be successful and you'll move up the ranks and you'll be seen instead of having this, I want to be a World Cup coach, or I want to be this. And putting yourself first, like, that gets seen through pretty quickly.

Yeah. So Johnny, you are— who are some of the athletes in Norway that you've coached from Europe Cup team, uh, that are now in the World Cup?

So I had, um, I was the longest with, uh, Fabian Solheim and Timon Haugen. I had for 6, 7 years. And then I had Adley McGrath and Lucas Broughton from Europa Cup to World Cup. And with them, I mean, I was also super lucky getting crazy talented, uh, 18-year-olds coming in. So it's— that's not something that I helped them along their journey, but they, they had a really good foundation and good work from a young age. And like, their understanding and knowledge about skiing and plan of what they wanted to do, even from 18 years old was better than most World Cup 30-plus-year-olds that had had medals. Like, it was really impressive.

Could you go into, into that, like, specifically? Like, what, you know, because you've obviously seen people— yeah, what, what is that sort of—

so I think, um, a lot of— and I saw this as an athlete— a lot of coaches who are— can be very successful, make the athlete really reliant on them personally and that whatever they're telling you, this tip or that tip. And I think it's so important for athletes to have an understanding and an ownership over their own skiing. So I'll try to, probably annoyingly so, like, what do you think of that run? How did that feel?

Why?

And asking all these probing questions so that the athletes really become their own best coaches. They have to know the principles of how things work together. And normally, if you're having problem, say, with the entrance of the turn, it's got very little to do with what you're doing at the entrance of the turn. It's so much related to the release and the exit of the turn before. And for them to understand the principles and, um, and to feel it— and I think that's what's— say, Lucas— and having a clear vision of what they want to do And that's what Lucas and Adelaide were both from a very young age, very, very good at. Yeah, I think discussions instead of just do this, do this, do this, do this, do that. And I myself find myself doing it too often, just telling them what to do. But I think that's really important.

Cool.

Yeah. Johnny, so just to get some context, so I remember Lucas Broughton. I mean, all those guys, like, insane talents, right? Um, I guess like Lucas really punched that home when he won in Soldan when he was 20 years old. Um, but you worked with those guys from when they were around 18 years old, right? Can you give us some context of like, like what, uh, like where were they in terms of like level when they were 18 and what was that progression, if you could even name some maybe key moments to, to like, you know, Lucas winning a World Cup, but also those the other guys getting in the top 30.

Yeah, I mean, I think Lucas actually was the, the classic, um, wonder child. So he was really good at 14, 15 years old, and then his first year FIS, which you see with so many of these kids that are child stars Um, a lot of the other guys started catching up and beating him. So I think when his first year FIS, he was like 6th or something. I don't want to get it wrong, but he wasn't the top Norwegian. And that's at a place where you see most the child stars, uh, kind of lose interest. They're used to winning everything, and then it's inevitable that people will catch up. And then he has this hunger within So his second year FIS, he switched programs and he had, uh, Ole Mosdahl as a coach, who was a coach for him when he was a younger athlete, and then again on the World Cup team in Norway. And he did the ski switch and just kind of refocused his efforts. And so he took a big step at 17, uh, 17 and 18. And then, so he actually wasn't on the Europa Cup team at the— in the summer, but he got invited in October to some training. And was doing really well. And I think the first GS he was on the podium in Europa Cup, which is unheard of coming into your first Europa Cup being on the podium. And he won almost all the GSs that year in Europa Cup.

And you called that— I remember, Johnny, we were training up in Sweden and I never even heard of Lucas. And yeah, there was basically this random kid training with you guys and he was coming down, you're like, uh, he's gonna podium this week. I was like, come on, like, what do you mean? I've never even heard of this kid. But he's like, he's gonna podium. I'm like, all right, all right. And sure as hell, he, he got on the podium. Then yeah, won just about every GS, Europa Cup that season.

And then for him, it's like, he has a lot of speed. And at that time, he was He had really stiff skis and he would ski, kind of skip a bit of the entrance to the turn, have a really stiff, strong leg, and then generate so much power. And then as we got into the spring and we had salted and worse conditions, it just wasn't working that way of skiing. And that you have to be able to adapt and be a little bit more, kind of having a wider platform on your, the base. And, and then he really worked on just simplifying it. I mean, the philosophy for me and for the team was to achieve excellence, do the basics at the highest standard consistently. And that was really ingrained, and that's something that he also really bought into. And you can see, especially this year— I mean, in the previous 2 years, I think he had finished 4 slalom races, or 3 years he'd finished 3, 4 slalom races, 2 World Cups, and then one of them we won the first run. And then he was really this year like, I'm just gonna take it down a notch and be really consistent. And then you see, I mean, he had the red bib for a lot of the season and it went down to the wire on the final race. Um, so he's just very, very process-oriented and, um, He sticks to it. And I think that's, that's really important because he had the speed. He had, like, from a young age you could tell this guy has something special. And you could see him in a race where he can, like, step it up and really attack when most people are backing off.

So, so I guess, you know, you, Paul, and you mentioned that your experience trying to be ski racers was a big driver to how you wanted to coach people now. Johnny, what were some of the things you wished you'd had back when you were 20 that you now sort of really implement? I know we talked about the, you know, Paul's like, Johnny is there for the— for each individual athlete, not just technically. What did you feel you were missing?

Um, I think for me it was a lot my own understanding of the sport beyond my narrow in-the-moment. And I think that I see myself and a lot of the athletes where I, I beat myself up a lot. I worried about what other people thought way too much, and I didn't really understand how everything is connected together. And I didn't have a big enough picture on my ski racing and an understanding within myself. I was very reliant on other people, and I had some great coaches coming up, but I always made myself reliant on them. And that's why, like, going to college, it was such a shock where it was just a very different environment. And then, like, Paul was super— how he was coaching me a lot of the time. And then make— I kind of started to understand things in a different way. And I think it's, it's difficult as an athlete You're so myopic and like only worried about yourself. And to see it kind of take a step back can be very helpful. And I'll try to get the guys to do that. Like, we'll come do video and we'll be like, okay, I'm gonna bring Leif and Atlean to watch video together. You tell the other guy what you're working on, you watch a video, and then it kind of brings you out of your own bubble and you have to think about things differently to be able to explain it to your teammate.

I like that. Yeah, I like that because we— Sam and I recently spoke to a young guy, Jack Adams, who's on the New Zealand team, and he said he wished as a junior athlete he'd just been taught some more fundamental things, not just get forward and stand on your outside ski, but, but like the particularly the the line. So really taking the skis away further. He said, if I'd just been told that when I was a lot younger, I wouldn't have— yeah, I could have been practicing that as I'm 15, 16, 17, 18, instead of like at 18 realizing that for the first time. So is that part like sort of partly that? And I guess that's the big thing.

I mean, that's for me the one thing that, um that kind of rings true is that for me, you know, you're always like working on the top of the turn. And I think I was in my early 20s before I really clicked that I have to finish the turn before and go far enough across before I start my turn, where I'm getting off the ski way too early to try to get on the new one. So then I'm just sliding in and sliding out of the turn. And it's like, it's something simple, and the coaches probably thought I understood it, but I I didn't. And so I think that's also important, is like, you can say the best things to the athlete, but they have to understand it. And to kind of challenge them and try to really— where are they at? Because athletes will nod and, yeah, I agree, because you don't want to feel stupid.

I think, I think a key part of with coaching is, I mean, there's so many times where, I mean, um It was, I think, when Daniela Sette was on my team, and Sette could speak perfect English, you know. I mean, for a Swiss guy, you know, he spoke Italian and German and English. I'm pretty sure it was Sette, or it was Barofaldi, my— one of my Italians. I can't remember, but it was like December, and all of a sudden he asked something. He's like, yeah, what does Paul keep talking about with like the independent move? You know, like in the transition, and it's December, you know, we started working in May together, you know, instead of like asking, you know, I don't quite understand this, you know, they, they, like John said, they don't want to feel stupid or they don't, yeah, don't understand something, or they can't create their own, uh, version of what that is, that it can be totally different than what you have in mind.

So it's right, so that communication is so important.

Yeah, a lot of times I'll ask the athlete to like kind of explain what I'm talking about in their own words and not just, you know, regurgitate what I just said to them, so that way I know they understand it in their own language, you know, because there's a lot of times, uh, you know, I think a good example for me is with Sam Mays on my team. He will understand something I'm saying but he words it almost the exact opposite of how I say it, to the point where it doesn't even really make sense to what I'm explaining. Like, the wordage is so different that you wouldn't think that's what it is, but it doesn't matter. As long as I know how he understands it and he understands what I, I'm saying, then that's all that matters. And so I think, you know, that, that, uh, communication is extremely important. You know, that's something that Johnny's always talked a lot about over the years is the communication between the athlete and the coach and having just a mutual understanding of what you're trying to accomplish. And just more so than, yeah, get forward or get over the outside ski, you know, just sort of the whole process of it.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, you're talking about with Jack Adams, and I think, you know, when You asked Johnny sort of what he felt he was missing when he was growing up or whatever. I think a lot of it is that, um, as athletes, like Johnny said, you don't see the bigger picture always, you know. You see just a very narrow focus, like, I need to make that turn better, just this one little turn right now, and I see it one turn out of 20, and now I'm happy about it, you know, instead of sort of understanding the whole process of it and understanding the whole big picture, not getting too focused on on having like one good turn or just one bad turn to ruin everything, or one good turn the entire course makes your, your run really good when 99% of it wasn't good, you know. And you got to focus on the bigger picture, the consistency. And, and consistency wins races. And, you know, if you look at how Lucas said he was taking a step back this season to be more consistent, he ends up, you know, crushing like he did in Wengen second run. I mean, and that was just very basic consistency.

That was just a good core set, Paul.

Yeah, Donnie's core set. I mean, really, if you watch Lucas in Wengen, I mean, he was, he was running— was he running first or second?

Second.

What's that?

So Johnny, Johnny, that was your core set? Yeah, yeah, on the second one of Wengen. Yeah, that is rad.

But wow, that was cool going, you know, watch him running second, you look at, you're like that was probably solid, like maybe he'll move up to top 15. You know, it's very hard to judge. And then as other guys are coming down and struggling and going way straighter than he was going, you know, he was just giving himself a lot more line, being consistent the whole way, where some guys were cutting off the line through, uh, the hairpins and losing so much ground speed, where Lucas was just consistent, consistent, consistent. You know, that's sort of like seeing a bigger picture as an athlete. And understanding that consistency can win races. And I think when we're younger, we're not really taught this kind of stuff. And I think that's a fact that we have— well, I say we, I mean Johnny can talk about Canada, I can talk about the US, you know, Johnny can talk a bit more about Norway and stuff in terms of development. But, you know, I think when we're younger, um, you know, you, you miss a lot of that bigger picture thinking of what's really important and not just one single but the whole process of it.

Yeah. So, so a couple of things, um, for everyone listening, if you don't know what we're talking about, go and search Lukas Bratton Bangen on YouTube right now. Um, I had a, I had this exact experience you're describing because I didn't watch that race live and I went back and watched it and I heard, well, you know, Lukas Bratton won from, uh, you know, start position 2, which means he was like 29th in the first run, right? Just describing for everyone listening. And I was like, wow, so I'm gonna watch this run and it's gonna be like the craziest run I've ever seen, right? This is gonna be insane. Because also the condition— it wasn't like if the course was completely falling apart. I remember, you know, we've seen it before where people win from bib 1, bib 2 on the second run, um, and, and the course is falling apart. So eventually like they end up winning because, you know, no one like people are skiing these crazy ruts. And when I watched it, I was like, I was like, that didn't seem that good. It just seemed really, really solid. And then everybody's coming down and no one could, could get ahead of him. Um, so yeah, but really, really cool to, to hear you guys describe that. And I had that experience just watching it because I expected to see something absolutely like mind-blowing. And in a way, on the edge Yeah, in a way it was exactly what needed to be done. It wasn't anything absolutely crazy. Pretty amazing performance. Um, Johnny, what you were saying before about getting athletes to coach each other as well, uh, is that something you did often?

Yeah, fairly often. More, more in the preseason. Um, But for sure. And then like if say Sondre Olsen, Sten Olsen was struggling a bit this winter. He was the, he's the next big star. And so he came from Europa Cup wins into the World Cup team. And then it's a, it's heavy on an athlete when you're starting at the back and it's January slalom month. And it's like, you feel like you're getting beat down, beat down, beat down. And, um, I'd been talking to him about something like just that in the transition, this is that I always want their bodies in the direction of the skis. And a lot of people in slalom always body down the hill, and if your body's always down the hill, you can never be really on your ski in the entrance of the turn. So this was a bit new to him. And then I remember Lukas was just in the next room. I'm like, Lukas, come in. And then he talked to Sander for half an hour, and it's like I could be trying to tell him exactly similar thing as Lucas, but then just by Lucas being the athlete explaining it in the way that he's feeling it, something really clicked for Sander. So I think it's, it's so important, um, that they talk to each other. And this for us, I mean, I think one of the benefits of the Norwegian team and the attacking Vikings is that they work really well together and they're in a way forced to do that. Like with the Europa Cup team, I was alone with 8 athletes. I can't see all the course. I mean, this is something Paul experiences too a lot, but then they have to give themselves good recourse reports because I can only see one-third of the course. So they learn how important it is to be giving good reports, to be talking to each other, because the one coach can't do everything. Like a Swiss team or an Austrian, they would have a bigger staff on Europa Cup than we have on our World Cup team. So then you can put pillows under their arms. So it's a little bit that I try to encourage it, and it's also natural and kind of organic by having a smaller team.

Do you want to maybe— do you want to maybe speak then about— I don't know if you need to go back even earlier— that the differences then you see between, say, because your experience with Canada and then Norway, and possibly how that leads to, you know, is a contributing factor to Norway having such a successful team.

Yeah, I think the— I mean, the, the big thing I saw coming from— I mean, I was in US for 9 years and then Canada for 2, and I worked with some— mainly I've worked with older athletes, but done some camps here and there with younger ones. And I, I really found in North America at that time it felt like the cool thing was to be really fast and really lazy. That's what the young teenagers like. I'm Mr. Cool Guy. Oh, I don't want to work hard in dryland. And immediately what struck me in Norway is the cool thing was being in the best shape. And they do this old school dryland test, which it's not the most, uh, scientific or Totally ski-specific, but you get a score and then they get t-shirts with their number, and if you have a high number t-shirt, that's the coolest thing. So just this culture of— or the guys with the kids at like high school would track how many runs they did, how many gate passes they had, and that was the coolest thing, was doing more. So to me, that was really different coming over. And I also see these kids where, I mean, for me growing up, the biggest goal was making the Canadian ski team. My biggest goal wasn't being world champion, it was being on the Canadian team. And I saw that too, being on the US team. And the kids here, their goal is to be the best in the world, and it's, it's seemingly attainable. I mean, in Oslo we have, I don't know how many, 6 World Cup winners from last year in a city of under a million people. So you see that it's possible. And, and for me growing up, no one had made the Canadian team from my city of the same— Ottawa— the same size as Oslo in 20 years, 10 years. So you see that it's possible, I can do that. Um, and it's like probably breaking the 4-minute mile. Like, when you see it's possible, then everyone does it, or Yeah, so you see that it is possible and working hard is the cool thing. And of course there's some— we have a lot of, uh, opportunities here. I mean, you have a city where there's ski hills, 5 hills within 15 minutes, so the kids ski every day after school in the winter. We have night skiing, ski every day, and we have close access to glaciers. Almost all year round, so they're able to do a lot of skiing. And that's another big thing that it's, it's difficult in a lot of other places to get as much skiing. Cool.

Yeah.

That's a funny thing, right?

Because that, that last, my experience in racing is the last point you brought up, Johnny, about, um, people doing a lot of skiing seems to be like the only, like a, like a huge part of what people that don't get to do as much skiing focus on. Not— they don't focus as much on the— in Norway, it's cool to be fit, it's cool to do as many runs as possible, stuff like that. They like leave that aside. And when, like, as an Aussie racer, I always just used to think, I'm like, well, in that case, us Kiwis and Aussies should be like the best in the world, right? Because like we ski the entire goddamn year. Um, so no, really cool to get some insights there. I'd I, I kind of resonated with what you said with the, your athletes coaching each other, because I remember having an experience of, uh, do like when I was a racer going and doing an APSI exam and doing like my instructor levels. And you know, as racers, and I think even race coaching, there's like a bit of a, a culture of like shitting on the instructors, you know, like they're not at the highest performance. And sometimes, like, I see this, you know, you see instructors that are like really trying to say get their Level 4, and in a way, like, I understand, like, they're still so far below like the performance of an Alpine World Cup guy. And I went in, I remember thinking like, you know, I did it because my dad's an instructor. I went, I went in thinking, you know, what could I really learn here from doing snowplows with Tom Gellie?

Because I did—

I think Tom, I think Tom was my examiner. On my Level 1, and I became a way better skier, uh, ski racer after doing those because I just— I actually did start to understand skiing like on a different level, um, or like a— like on more minute details. So, um, do a lot of snowplows with the World Cup guys.

So yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that that's like really important is doing basic drills and movements on the— yeah, I mean, we'll Trick will do good warmup with a lot of drills and then they'll ski. And once they're too tired to keep training, like go do 2 cool-down runs. It's gonna cost you no energy and do some drills. And I had, uh, when I was coaching at UVM, I would do in the summers, I'd work at Trouble Cone Race Academy. And there we had a guy, Steve Smart, uh, Canadian high-level, uh, ski instructor.

He was my lot from him. Yeah. He was a trainer of mine.

Okay, yeah, he's a great guy. So, and you— and I would use him. And I think like to use a great ski instructor is so good. And I mean, uh, Kostelec used to go around and he'd be training and then he would work with some ski instructor in the afternoon. And to learn, I mean, those basics, they're really good at teaching. And the basic things are so important.

Johnny, um, on that when it comes to doing drills, doing cooldown runs and so on. Um, what is, uh, a typical day from the moment they get on snow for a, for a Norwegian alpine guy? You know, how many runs of drills and like warm-up they're gonna do? How many runs do they usually do on the course? I remember being at Hinterreit training next to Kristoffersen, and I was just like, did that guy just do like 14 runs? You know, they were just— they just kept going. And like, the Norwegians were famous for that, at least at the time. Um, and then, yeah, how many cool-down runs would you do? Like, if I was a younger racer and I was like, okay, I want to train like a Norwegian or follow a Norwegian schedule, what would that look like?

I mean, it's gonna vary, um, in the time of the season and also with the age of the athlete. So I mean, with Uh, the gymnasium and Europa Cup level, like there we tried to ski as much as possible. I mean, I did some, I did a day of GS training with Henrik Røa where I did 20 runs of full-length GS and you'd have to be like, stop, stop. Um, so it, it does vary and you have to like what they can take and I would do almost as much as they can handle over time. Uh, whereas with the World Cup team, I mean, it's more— it's pretty similar to other nations. You'll do maybe 2 warm-up runs, 6 runs in the season, and then over 1 of cooldown. So it's not— I don't think we're very at the World Cup level so extreme because you need to get enough rest and enough variation of days, and you can't— they can't do it the same way they did when they were younger. And I think I always try to have like, uh, my goal is always to make this athlete the best in the world one day and, and just balance that short-term race coming up this weekend, not to go off on a tangent, but versus the long-term development. And then like when Lucas won his, the first run in Kitzbühel, we did that week, we're in Hinterrhein, we did 2 days of Super G, or 2 days of GS, 1 day of Super G, and 2 days of slalom. And it's just like, this is a window where we're at Hinterrhein, we can do everything so easily that we have to do these things that we're not racing in the short term because it's going to help you over time. And I think to make those decisions is really important as a coach when there's always so much pressure from servicemen, from the athletes. I got this race coming up, and to take a step back and there's a reason we're going to do this. And I think it's also good for the athletes to get the variation. Like if you're racing slalom and you do GS that week, it's less stressful. They can focus on the skiing and not be so worried about everything else and be working on the same type of movement patterns in a different environment. Yeah.

Paul, do you follow a similar philosophy with your guys when you— I know you're like more GS focused, but, um, you know, even, even like the day-to-day you know, depending on time of year, like what they're doing day to day and so on.

Yeah, I mean, definitely in the preseason summer, you know, from, you know, if you start skiing in July for the first time, and then I would say until maybe beginning of October, so you have a couple weeks before Sölden where I'm trying to get the guys sort of as ski fit as possible. So I mean, I have guys on my team that are 22. I mean, it's not much different than Johnny. My age range is from 22 to 30. So yeah, sometimes guys are able to pump out more runs than others, but I definitely try to put in the ski miles, especially in the summer, as much as possible. And, you know, in Saas-Fee, for example, it's good because you're at high elevation, so you can kind of get ski fit a bit quicker. Um, and so after training, a lot of times, uh, if the guys are done sooner than some other guys, they'll be going out and doing some of the drill routines that we have, or just doing free ski runs, working on some stuff. Do anywhere between 4 or 5 runs after the course with that. Um, and then, I mean, there's also times, uh, we could do 14 runs in the course or so, 12, 14 runs. And then afterwards, uh, you know, sometimes I go through the course slowly with the guys, just working on a couple of gate sections on just some key movements. If I felt that they're not— we spent a whole day and they're still not quite, you know, nailing the timing or the placement of where I want them pushing on the ski, you know, we'll slow it down and we'll kind of slide down the course and we'll do sort of sliding sliding turns through the course just so they can know at what point they should be making a certain movement and then, you know, where they should be traveling out, um, stuff like that. So the summertime is definitely about really trying to nail down the basics, getting as many miles as possible. And then, yeah, once October comes along, you need to start to kind of tone it down a bit where you're looking at more efficiency in training in terms of like, okay, if we're training, if we're able to be on the Sölden World Cup hill or something like that, and it's, you know, gonna be a minute 15, you know, you're not gonna be pumping out 7, 8 runs, you know, maybe you're doing 4 runs, something like that. And so at that point, you're gonna want that those 4 runs, those guys are skiing as consistent as possible and sort of nailing all the stuff that you've been working on through the summer. Um, and then kind of November, you get a bit of a break. Um, there's one parallel, but otherwise there's not really any racing around. So that's another point where you can kind of, um, maybe pump up the runs a little bit more. But during the season, it's sort of the guys have to go off the feeling, how they're feeling, you know. I'm not going to demand that they're taking 10, 12 runs if they're feeling really tired after 4 runs, you know. Um, you know, so like Johnny said, it might be okay, you're doing 4 runs where you feel like you only do 4 runs afterwards, take a couple free ski runs, work on some stuff, and then yeah, chill out. So it's, it's all a little bit different and you're, uh, time-dependent.

Hey Johnny, you mentioned the, uh, I can't remember the guy's name, but he was down the hill instead of being a little more square with his skis. And you got Lucas in to sort of explain that to him. Can I ask a little more about that? Why, why do you think it's still very much like coached and taught to really like that dogma about down the hill with the upper body? Um, yeah, do you think there's a place for it? Do you, do you think you know, it's something you have to go through and then you can get towards being squarer. Like, yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Because I, you know, there's a lot of instructors that listen to this and, you know, a lot of the time they'll get— they'll give themselves a hard time because they see video like, oh my God, my body's rotated this way and I'm— for my exam it's supposed to be down here.

Yeah, yeah, I think, um, I mean, as I said, I haven't really coached young kids And I think it's probably a lot taught because, you know, the kids end up rotating and moving away from their ski, and that at least if it bodies down the hill, you're going to be in a good position at the apex and below. Um, some people believe that you don't have time in slalom to actually follow your skis in the transition, or— and I think it's also, it can be dangerous to be picking apart video of World Cup races, because World Cup races are— there's a lot of reacting to extreme conditions. And so you can easily pick up two turns on a World Cup where someone's like reacting to a mistake and then seize on that. So in my opinion, that you always— you have to have enough separation at the apex, but then as you're releasing the turn you need to be moving towards being square so you can be aligned in the next entrance. And I think to look at skiing, like, you, you always want to be as skeletally aligned and efficient as possible. And people will also say, like, this is just the way they ski, or that's their technique. I said, but I agree with that, but everyone can be more efficient. No matter how you ski, you can always be more efficient, and we should always be striving to making them more efficient so that their— just their skeletal system is good enough. You don't need to be the strongest man in the world. And I mean, I think also with sometimes with young kids or teenagers, that when they're too strong, you get away with, uh, bad habits. Like, I can, uh, for Pauli Hunter Kalsas was so strong, the guy we skied with in college, and he could ski the whole course with his ass like 2 inches off his bindings, where if I got in that position, I would just blow out. So like, there's something to be said for that. You have to be able to ski efficiently.

Yeah, and is that—

you got it.

Um, just to clarify, because I can already see people listening to this podcast and then finding some still frames of racers at the gate where they're like countered or their body is down the hill. Okay, what— there's a difference. It's Johnny's talking about basically sort of at the very end of the turn transition, sort of your shoulders, skis should kind of be in the same line. But when you're at the gate, you're gonna have that separation, you know. Like if you take a still shot when someone's hitting the gate you're not going to be— your shoulders aren't going to be following the same direction of the skis, you know? And I think that's a misunderstanding, you know, that people could have is that that's going to be a rotation. If you're already at the gate starting to go this way where your shoulders are pointing towards the skis, that's different than when you're in the transition starting to flatten up and you're following the skis instead of the skis going this way and your, your body's going that way. Because then when you enter the turn, you're going to be like this. And, um, so I think it's a clarification because I can see people still framing a shot and being like, well, this guy's countered, or his body's facing down the hill. It's a difference between what part of the turn. Or Johnny?

Yeah, yeah, like, I would, I would agree. I think, I think basically you want your like ankles, knees, hips square to the skis, and your separation is going to come through your upper thoracic spine. Yeah, um, like sternum and up to be able to— and you see a lot of people having separation from the hip and misaligning everything. Um, so I think that's a key point, that it's, it's only the separation is only coming from kind of sternum up to help you keep the weight on the outer side ski. And, and that it's going to— that separation will increase as the impulse and the pressure increase through the turn to be able to maintain it, the pressure on the outside ski. And as that's in, you know, if it's soft snow and a longer turn, you're going to have to hold that longer to get the skis to come around, versus like if you're in Colorado and super aggressive snow, you can be more square through the turn because you get so much from the skis.

Yeah, that's interesting, your point about the, the, the separation up here, because if you do that, then you can, you can align your pelvis and legs, that stronger part, in a better way. Is that right? That's the reason why.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then what would you say is your reasoning behind being square at the top of the turn ankle, knee, you know, hip, all those things, instead of being not as— so like, you know, maybe someone's like, oh, you need to be anticipated, or you, you know, whatever.

Yeah, because then you're not lined up, um, over the outside ski, and you're gonna have to be getting your impulse through putting the skis out or just moving them in, moving the whole body inside. I want everything to come from the ground and up. I want it to be ankle, knee, hip, shoulder. Yeah, all the power comes from the ground.

And I guess that's where you—

people think that they don't have time. You have time.

You have—

okay. Uh, and, and that's where you, you'd be like, okay guys, snowplow time, because they've got time to like be aware of where their body is at these sort of phases.

And yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think if you see, like, you can see a really what looks like a great slalom, like super fast slalom skiing, and if it looks like pressure off, pressure off, pressure off, to me that's, that's not that great. I want it to look like it's always connected one turn to the next, your feet always look heavy, um, versus like, yeah, you're hitting really quick, getting light in the middle, throwing the feet out, getting really quick. And when it's rough and it's, uh, steep, you need to be as much as possible in control. And of course, this is another thing where you— people pull apart a World Cup race and look at people reacting and making moves, versus if you saw them on a pretty normal terrain, which we're watching most younger athletes on, they're going to be connected. It's going to look simple.

That's a— yeah, that's a good, good point. Even I was even just looking at some, uh, like the Lillehammer moguls finals and like the, the side-on view, and those guys, you know, there's no tip stand, they're not touching the back of the mogul, or like they're hammering. If you put them in a situation where it's not like they, they would be trying to do it, just like World Cup skiers, you put them in a in a course that they're, you know, comfortable on, they're going to be doing that. But when they're pushing it, those situational things come up, right?

Yeah, exactly. So I think that's really dangerous. And you see people pulling apart this extreme World Cup race and then often copying the mistakes that that athlete might be working on getting out of their skiing is what the younger athletes are only copying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's definitely interesting.

Definitely a bit dangerous to pull apart, you know, especially like the last quarter of a World Cup course, say in a GS or something. If you're like, what was, uh, Adelboden this year? I mean, it was a pretty— that was like the most tiring GS, I think, other than Saalbach 4 years ago where it was like a minute 28. But this year, Adelboden was crazy.

I mean, guys, where were you standing, Paul?

Uh, yeah, by the slalom start.

Okay, because I was at the next flat before the big pitch and they were like falling over when they were getting to me and there were still 2 seconds to go.

Yeah.

Oh, uh, you know, the guys go out on the bottom just because their legs couldn't hold them up anymore.

Yeah.

And so, guys, if you're gonna then, you know, someone can watched the bottom pitch of, of Adelboden and been like, oh, this guy was rotating, this guy was complete separation, this guy was like just throwing this up there. You're like, yeah, because he was trying to survive, you know. It's completely different. It's like, watch the top half where in Adelboden you can just hammer, you know. The top half through the, through the flat is like, for the most part, turn your brain off and just arc everything and hammer. But with the snow conditions and course sets now where they're trying to control speed, you know, things are— the course sets are a lot longer, the guys are getting a lot more tired, you know. And yeah, you're gonna see a lot more, uh, just stuff that's not— you don't want to be copying it, you know, because it's just a different situation.

Um, so, so yeah, Paul, why, why was that run so tiring and so much so long?

Well, you know, FIS has this whole thing now where they're trying to minimize injuries and they're trying to figure out all summer. They meet with specialists on why these injuries are happening and this and that. And so, you know, they look at, at skis and snow conditions and, and course sets. And so one thing they were trying to do in GS is, uh, you know, make things turnier. So the speed is down. But what you have on the other hand is guys are now dead for the last 15 seconds of a GS course. And to me, that's pretty damn dangerous, especially in Adelboden.

Yeah, yeah. Last year at Adelboden, I mean, that was a tough race for me. We lost both Broughton— 2 years ago we lost Brad McGrath, uh, Tommy Ford had a really bad accident, and Samuel Bissick hurt his knee. So I think especially going there this year, they were pushing the first course setter on really controlling the speed, and they went a bit far.

But a lot of it is also you in Adelbone, right? They have like the third to last gate or fourth last gate, they have a, a footpath that goes across, you know, and it's this huge kicker. Um, and before that, you know, the bottom pitch of Adelbone is actually not that steep. It's one gate where there's like a really steep drop-off and then it goes into compression and mellows out, but then it's like this going on. And then a lot of times guys set it dead straight the last 5 gates, and then you have that, that road that's literally just a kicker like that, really, really fast. And, um, yeah, so they were trying to control that. Um, but this year is actually really mellow. The footpath was barely there, but you know, the damage was already done on the first, uh, minute of the course with, you know, how much turnier it was. And guys smoked.

I'd love to hear, like, what you guys think about this from, you know, like, these cycles that FIS kind of goes through. Because I, I don't know if it was last year, the year before, when Henrik put on his personal blog, Henrik Kristoffsen, like, he was actually Uh, he like, he had a complaint that everything was just way too straight, way too fast, and so on. I don't know, maybe that's, that was just in his head or something.

Depends on if you're winning or losing. Yeah, that's, you're winning, everything's great.

Yeah, when you're winning, like, the courses are perfect. Then if you're losing, or, or I guess if you're supposed to be like the chosen person after Marcel retires, and then all of a sudden these, these young guns start coming up and body, your ankles. Maybe that was it. But, but, you know, when he was complaining about being so straight, I was like, I was like, does this just go through cycles? It seems like every 5 years they go between, okay, all right, like, let's go dead straight, let's, let's start making a turny, oh, let's change the skis again. Um, I mean, what, like, what do you guys— I guess a good question to follow this up would be like, what would you do to make it safer and still be ski racing.

Make every GS almost as icy as possible. Yeah, I think control—

I think the conditions is, uh, the, the biggest thing, uh, just to make better and more consistent conditions. The most dangerous to me is when they're varying or when it's super aggressive ice that is like the skis respond to so much. And also when it breaks a bit, then they're, they're skipping and then catching.

Yeah.

Um, and I think that no matter what they try to do with the equipment, there's going to be ways to make it more aggressive, and it's just going to cost the manufacturers a lot of money. Um, so I think the conditions of the course are the biggest thing. And as far as the sets. Like, to me, I don't always like other people's sets, but I think it's great to have a huge variety. And I think that's what makes the Crystal Globe so cool, to, to win that. It's like then you have done everything you're doing super fast.

Returny, let me understand that because I, I have no idea how this works. Like, you set Bangen Like, does Paul ever get to set a World Cup course? Like, who gets to set it and what are you— what are you allowed to do? And like, what are your parameters?

Um, like, so it has to do with the combined World Cup points, uh, the previous year, and I don't know exactly the formula. What's that?

They take the top 7 in the Nations Cup you know, and then they divide up the sets with that. And if there's, uh, sets left over after they've been divided up, then they go down the list, you know, 8, 9, 10, and then they divide it with that. It's all filled up.

And the most you can have is, I think, 4 in a discipline. Um, and then in terms of when you're setting it, it's basically the, the— as long as it's within the FIS rules, but they can be there and say, hey, yeah, this is looking a bit straight. There's always someone from FIS with, with you, or like, okay, move over a little bit here, there's better snow. Um, so yeah, and it depends on how much you'll listen to the people from FIS, is I guess, I guess, and second run, I mean, you also have no time to set. You're setting within like 5 minutes, you have to be done. So that could be also a factor on the safety.

Yeah. And do you think it's— is it an advantage for sure, you know, like you set for the Norwegian team on that run?

Like, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I've seen it work both ways. I mean, in that particular instance, uh, I knew Lucas was going really early, um, and the conditions were in some places a bit soft, so I did some things that I knew suited him. Like, for him having offset hairpins on the pitch were good, and I knew that he could make really good big turns kind of coming into the, uh, coming into the first rollover. So I kind of— I, it wasn't like this is for Lucas, but I took into account what he was really good at doing. And I think a lot of times when you set a course for your athlete, it backfires. So I usually try to not do that.

I also think that's all in your head. I mean, these guys are all good enough that they know what they're doing regardless what the course is. For sure, some stuff will suit them a bit better. You know, you have your guy sitting in first place after first run, you're setting second round, you're not going to set something you know that they're generally slow at, you know. But Yeah, I don't know. I mean, there's times that you've seen like an Austrian set a second run and they've had like—

yeah, like Pfeiffer at World Championships last year. Yeah, he set this really strange— was it a delay into a hairpin that was like very— when the outside gate of the delay was like an extra gate, and they probably trained that a thousand times, and Schwartz was in fourth or something first run, and it skied out there. So I've seen that happen all the time. I think normally when you set in a race, you just try to set with a good course with the terrain, and often it's different than what you had pictured in your head.

I think regarding course conditions, um, I mean, if you look at how many injuries there are in a race season at races versus training it's a lot different. I think in training we basically almost always have better conditions than what you see at a World Cup because the coaches are preparing it. We have more experience than what is happening on the World Cup because we water way more than FIS does, you know, in a season. And, you know, like I said, I think especially in GS to limit the amount of injuries, make it very icy where the guys still have grip. You make your skis, they can be sharp enough that you still have grip. But like Johnny said, the inconsistency, especially with, uh, the, the grippiness, the aggressiveness of the snow, where it might be a bit icy in one section and then you come to an area where it's way grippier and you don't realize and you put the same pressure on, then you're gonna have a very bad reaction. But If you're able to make, you know, it pretty icy and still have grip the whole way, I mean, the guys have complete control. They can throw in a drift when they need to, to be able to, you know, speed control or energy control or do a recovery versus when it's grippy and you try to do that and you throw the skis out. It's like they're wanting to grip, grip, grip while you're trying to drift into place, and then you hit it and then it goes like that where you just don't have the feeling on ice. You know, nice, slick, but with grip ice, you can do whatever you want. And then the guys are going to be able to, you know, hammer from start to finish because they have that confidence in what they're getting. I mean, you look at World Champs, the last World Champs GS, you had 3 or, you know, I would say 3 different conditions. The top pitch was perfect. That was like real ice, perfect grip. And then you came off the first pitch, you had that flat, and then the next little breakover, and this was like pond ice. I mean, this was ridiculous how many of the top guys in the top 15, the guys just skidded out, you know. And then the bottom was like spring snow. I mean, that had to do a bit with weather, but also the, you know, the preparation of it wasn't, wasn't correct. It was completely different.

And the same, yeah, I guess, yes, was like the top, that was super weird there. But it was like, it's— once it snowed, it was like slick on the top, and then all of a sudden you get to like the most aggressive snow you ever skied, and that's dangerous.

Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking of, uh, Hinterreit and how that, that guy preps the hill, that legend, legendary dude with his special, uh, you know, this special machine. And it's like, it doesn't matter. Like, you could probably go there in May and you would find like a glacial ice, like, just, you know, a couple of centimeters under.

It's like, it is possible, right?

It's possible to get like really good conditions, um, on a hill that's, you know, prepared, like, purposely prepared for that. So yeah, I mean, maybe that is the way that FIS should be looking, is like to have, you know, 2 or 3 teams of people that are just like, that's all they do, and they and they cycle through and prepare all the World Cup slopes, you know, like, they have— like, they do have that. Oh, okay.

Well, no, but I mean, for World Cups, it's the people doing it once a year, so it's like they're doing it one time a year, they're preparing a slope.

Oh yeah.

And they have some direction from this, but it's not— and it's also difficult because they don't want to close down the whole mountain weeks out.

Sure.

So that tours might be— maybe it's the biggest slope down the hill. So that's the, what we, the challenge we have. I mean, 2 years ago in Alta Badia, they had the training slope on the back, which was in great condition, and the race slope we wouldn't train on a normal day, it was so bad.

All right. Yeah.

Hey Johnny, uh, I, I'm a bit of a geek about like equipment and ski boots and stuff like that, mostly because I've had a troublesome foot to fit. And so I've, you know, had to do a lot of that figuring out myself. You got any stories, like, uh, maybe even yourself or on the team? Are there any people, like the top guys that you know, have to do some quite, like, different things to make their equipment work for them?

Yeah, I mean, for me, I'm, I'm not a big equipment guy. Like, I think a lot of people I see at the young ages, like, they'll be on different boots and bindings and skis in every different event because to get an edge and like I need this metal plate. And generally I think for, I mean, a World Cup it's different, but for that development age, like, all the companies make pretty good skis. And but the big thing to me is that you're boot setup has to allow you to move naturally. Um, so I think that that's really important and a lot of people are like, okay, this is what all the racers use, whatever, 0.5, 0.5. And people are built so differently. And I had one athlete, uh, Pedder Ida, and he would be so A-framed in a normal standard setup and you really had to move like I don't know how many degrees, but like 2 or 3 degrees out to have him moving naturally. And now I have like Fabian Solheim and both Alex Kildén. I don't know what Kilda has, but they are moved in because they're bow-legged naturally. So it's like you want to find something that allows the person. And Fabian always had too aggressive boots, so he would do— when it was really icy, he'd do really well. Or when it was salt, he would do well. And if it was normal, he would just shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake. So to find that kind of what your natural movement pattern is and to not be afraid if it's very different than somebody else. So it's super important. And I'm not an expert at all, but I can see something and say like, this isn't working.

Yeah, you can see when it's a boot problem. And yeah, yeah, yeah. And do you— so yourself, did you ever have— are you pretty like straight? Yeah, I was pretty straight legs.

Yeah, yep.

That's not something I struggled with. I had a lot of bigger problems in my boots. Well, what—

so what do you reckon now? Sorry, going right back to the beginning of the interview. What do you, what do you reckon was lacking that you weren't world champion at one point, Johnny?

I think a lot of things were lacking for me to be a world champion. Um, I mean, I think the biggest thing was, uh, to, for me, being better than I was. I can't say world champion, but, um, mentally I wasn't great and I would be too worried about what other people thought. About me and I would be too nervous. I had a lot of times where I'd go, okay, I'll ski okay first run and I'll go down and I was like 25th. And then the second run I'd be really upset and then I'd win the second run. Or if I had a good first run, then I'd be like, oh, I better not mess it up now. So there was a lot of mental work I could have done.

Is that why you went and studied psychology?

Yeah, I guess so.

Those who can't do it.

Yeah, totally. And do you think that's helped? Has that degree helped you, you think, have a better understanding and how important that part is when you, you know, continued coaching?

Yeah, I think that helped quite a bit. I think it's just a lot is trying to meet every athlete where they are, and these are human beings and they all are different. I mean, the ideal performance state for one athlete can be completely opposite of somebody else, and that to kind of know where each athlete performs their best and try to help facilitate them getting them into that state. Um, like I say, Timon Haugen is very similar to the way I was, and he will be really worried about what other people will think and what that he needs to show and how good he is. And then for him, it needs a lot of positive affirmation and to let build him up. And some athletes who are maybe a bit cockier need to be pulled down a bit. I'm like, yeah, you won, but I was— you didn't do a good enough job here. You didn't do it like— so it's meeting each person at an individual level, I think, is really important. And it's not like a cookie cutter, this is the way I coach and this is the way I deal with people. You have to deal with different people because they're so different.

Yeah.

What do you think about Timon's move to Van Deer?

I think it's, uh, I think the skis look great. I mean, um, Ahead is a great company and they're making, I think, probably the most consistent, uh, slalom ski last year. So that was for sure, it was a risk. And I went with him to the testing and, um I was super impressed by the whole company, by Marcel, and just to me the skis were letting him move more naturally. And so I think it looks really good, and I was surprised a bit, but I think it's going to be good for him.

Awesome, it's going to be interesting to see how Van Deer performs this season. Um, just to start to wrap this up, I think a good question would be, Johnny, what's the, uh, the number one, the standout thing you've learned for your own coaching from Paul? And then Paul, vice versa, what's the number one thing you've learned from Johnny for your own coaching?

Uh, I think Johnny, for me, from Paul, or what always inspires me about Paul, it's just the passion that he puts behind his guys and his team, and that he will do anything for any one of those guys. It doesn't matter if you're— if it was like Matisse when he was winning, or somebody new coming in, it's like you're gonna give everything to it. And that's something that I always really respected and wanted to— I would like other people to see that about me.

Thanks, Johnny.

Awesome.

I mean, I think I kind of already said it. I mean, there's a lot of things with Johnny that I listen to and look up to and try to replicate. But what I touched on earlier, I think with, you know, when things are not going well and you think that you suck as a coach and you can't get anything right, you just gotta like keep trusting your process, keep trying to reevaluate and learn and know that, you know, if you've been having success, you don't suck as a coach and you're gonna, you know, get through this hump, you know, and not completely beat yourself up. And like I said, I mean, I don't know how many different times Johnny and I have texted over the years during the race season and One of us has been like, I suck, I should quit, I don't know what I'm doing, you know? And then it's, you know, Johnny, it's mostly me to Johnny, 'cause Johnny's had more success, you know? But Johnny's always, you know, trying to confirm that as long as you have that passion and that drive and just keep trusting what you're doing, things will turn around and they always do. I think that's something that we also need to, as coaches, pass on to athletes, you know, so you don't have these complete droughts, you know, that things are always going to do this through a season, and it's better that they stay like this than like this, you know, and that's part of when things are not going well to remind the athlete like, listen, if you were good a week ago, you're still good now, just stay cool and, yeah, focus on what you need to do. And that's something that Johnny's always, you know, pumped over the years.

And I think just one thing important is that I think for anybody who's really passionate and investing anything in it, it's very natural to get really up and down. And how important that is for us to recognize that and, uh, and try to be stable for the athletes. Like, if they're down, they just had a bad race, and then the coach is down too, it's like it really takes the energy out. And I think that that's something everyone— if you really care, it's natural that you're going to get down, but you have to really try to stay level and build the guys up when that's when they need it the most. And I think it's also the other important thing I'll say is for people, especially when you're, you're one coach with your team, to have, um, kind of a few trusted people around you. And for me in Europa Cup, it was Paul and, uh, Martin Kreuzleitner with the Austrian team who I, I skied with. And just to have people to be sparring partners, because it's easy to get in your tunnel vision. So like, watch my guys, Paul, what do you think? What do you see? Um, that just some guys that you can have as a sparring partner, I think that it's, it's, it's really valuable and they'll help you grow.

Like your comment about the athletes sort of talking to each other about this is what I'm working on, having to communicate and maybe, yeah, see things a little bit differently. And that's like, if I was to summarize what, what my takeaways are from from this conversation. One would be that important part, getting, getting people— and I don't think it has to be athletes, but if you're in it, you know, you're into your skiing or whatever it is, having people that you can, you know, try and explain what you're working on with and get it across in a, in an understandable way. I think that's a really good process to go through. The basics, like you've mentioned it again, just do the basics. There's, you know, not nothing wrong with that. And sorry to all the past clients I've had, but I definitely spent a lot of like teaching people— was not about teaching them, I was just getting practice at slow speeds working on my skiing. And, and I think like I'm grateful for that. It helped me accelerate my skiing working, working that level. Um, and then the other thing, just like we've hardly talked about technique and that sort of stuff much, you know, from, from Johnny, who's coaching— or coached the one of the best winningest teams in the world. And what's coming across is just, yeah, how important it is to be passionate and care about, care about each, each individual. So that's, that's really cool. That's my takeaway from it. I don't know if you had any, Sam.

Yeah, I think, uh, one of the key takeaways I got from you, Johnny, is it seems like the, you know, the Norwegian team, they really— even though this is an individual sport, but it seems like they treat it like a team sport, and that's like why they're so damn good, you know. Like, the, the idea of like, uh, coaching each other, helping each other out, you know, giving these great course reports and so on. Yeah, I mean, you know, course reports are a pretty standard thing. But like, actually, you know, it's, it's very easy to give a shit course report as well, right? Um, but, but yeah, like, I, for example, until today, I always assumed that the Norwegian Europe Cup team had a bunch of coaches and a huge amount of staff, and because they're so successful, right? Um, and I reckon that's an awesome takeaway, is just that you know, anyone out there who's listening to this, if you're on a small team or even a bigger team and you've got one coach, you know, you like, you and your team can make each other better as well. Um, which is, and of course having a really good coach is pretty, pretty helpful too. Um, but yeah, that's, that's definitely a key takeaway for me.

Cool, gentlemen, thanks very much for your time. It's been really good. I think people enjoy this, this discussion. So yeah, thanks a lot. Until next time.

Thanks a lot, guys.

Thanks, people, for listening. I hope you enjoyed that episode. Fascinating to get insights into some top-class coaches. Now, just a reminder, we have the Big Picture Skiing Academy program.

You know, if you're someone who wants to get prepared for the season, come back skiing better than when you left. That's the goal of the program. Um, please go to bigpictureskating.com, click on the Academy. We'll also have the link in the description. You can apply for the Academy. If your application resonates with us, we'll invite you for a free lesson. You'll be able to see exactly, um, how we coach online, why it's so effective. And yeah, from there we can see if it's the right thing for you. We look forward to hopefully meeting you.

And yeah, and you realizing your best skiing.

That's right.

Thanks everyone. This episode is sponsored by Carv, the digital ski coach. And one of the updates I've really enjoyed this season is the addition of separate SkiIQs for moguls and short turns. In the past, Carv scoring was mainly built around carving metrics, which meant everything was viewed through that lens. But Carv have gone deep on that research and completely separated what makes a great short turn or mogul turn different from a carved turn. To give you an idea of how accurate it's become, the person at the top of the Carv Leaderboard right now isn't a carving specialist, it's Olympic mogul skier Matt Graham. So the best SkiIQ in the world at the moment is coming from someone who lives and breathes bumps, and to be honest, my own highest SkiIQ is also in the moguls, which makes sense because that's my favorite type of skiing. What's really exciting this year is the addition of Turn Tempo, so basically your turns per minute. It's such a simple external output that's incredibly fun to play with. So good skiing isn't just about edge similarity or parallel skis, it's about how you interact with the terrain and whether you can change your tempo on demand. So seeing numbers like my quickest tempo of 117 turns per minute in the bumps gives you something concrete to compare, refine, and work toward. I've been working with Carv since 2020, and every year I'm genuinely impressed with how much the product evolves. They keep expanding what you can measure, and they're covering more and more of the turn types that skiers actually use all over the mountain. So if you're interested in tracking not just your carving but every turn you make on the snow, check out Carv. And a big thanks to the team for supporting this episode.